Topic: e-scooters

[CraigDS]

You should find this study from the University of Carolina interesting.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ab2da8

To better understand the net impacts of shared e-scooter use, we consider the modes of transportation that are being displaced. In our survey of e-scooter riders, 7% of users reported that they would not have taken the trip otherwise, 49% would have biked or walked, 34% would have used a personal automobile or ride-share service, and 11% would have taken a public bus (table S7). These results are consistent with a survey conducted in Portland, Oregon, which shows 8% would not have taken the trip, 45% would have biked or walked, 36% would have used an automobile, and 10% would have used a bus or streetcar

They come up with figures that an escooter contributes 202g Co2 per passenger mile, based on it lasting 18-24 months, compared to a car that produces 414g Co2, but that is basing it on an average American 2012 car doing 26mpg. My missus 1.6 2006 Astra is 158g/km, does about 40mog around town, so that's about 212g per mile, whereas modern cars, especially the hybrids are a lot less than the Astra.

It also says that it's massively dependent on the lifespan of a scooter (with it dropping to 141g if it lasts for 2 years) as well as how the scooters are collected/charged.

I'm amazed the scooters are only expected to have a 18-24mth lifespan. The things are solid. Obviously things may need replacing over time but you'd imagine the solid metal frame should last quite a while.

[rob1966]

It also says that it's massively dependent on the lifespan of a scooter (with it dropping to 141g if it lasts for 2 years) as well as how the scooters are collected/charged.

I'm amazed the scooters are only expected to have a 18-24mth lifespan. The things are solid. Obviously things may need replacing over time but you'd imagine the solid metal frame should last quite a while.

The lifespans will be reduced due to vandalism, theft and abuse. The lifespan of a mobike in Manchester seemed to be about a fortnight, judging by the amount of smashed up ones I saw and how many got fished out of the Quays

[ChaChaMooMoo]

We did a consulting study and we projected an average life of 7 years of normal usage for the scooter. The battery would outlast them in that scenario.

Of course, we did not consider vandalism, theft and abuse, in which case as rob mentions, the life would be significantly reduced.

P.S. It also depends on the quality of the bike themselves.

[CraigDS]

Yeah 7 years seems way more likely imo. The Voi ones are absolutely solidly made, no amount of falling over is damaging them too much.

Now obv vandalism, etc. will have an impact. Not sure how often this has happened in Liverpool.

Chacha - do they self charge during use? Or if not are they any plans for this tech to be implemented that you know of?

[ChaChaMooMoo]

They might have something called regenerative braking.

Most electric cars have this technology where if you let go of the accelerator, there is a braking effect even when the brake is not pressed. That's when the car is automatically plonked into regenerative mode the kinetic energy is converted into electric energy and is sent back into the battery. In a car, it could deliver up to 15% extra range.

This could be implemented in the e-scooters as well. I don't see why it wouldn't be the case as every kilometre recouped from regular use, is going to be helpful.

[CraigDS]

Yeah that’s the sort of tech I was thinking of. Would make sense for them to have it given it seems the only other charging options are for them to be collected and charged.

Or do they do battery swap outs?

Also, I’ve seen a Voi branded pedal powered van going around Liverpool lately so guess this collects scooters / replaces batteries which would massively decrease co2 output.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

From what I recollect, I think, there are 3 ways of "charging" them.

1. Battery swap - But this could lead to battery theft. And also not possible because the battery is enclosed with the structure and are not separable.

2. Van collect - As you say, a van could drive around picking up scooters that are less than 20% charge, say 3x a day. But that van has to be environmentally friendly to make sense. Pedal vans, as you say, could be going around. I am not aware of such vans here in Germany. There are electric vans that pick them up 2x a day and sometimes overnight.

3. Charging dock - Like the ones shown below. It is possible to undock them by unlocking them. And to lock them again, they need to be bought back to one of the other docks around the city.



Auxilliary:

* Wireless charging - Its a trial project between Imperial College London and Voi Sweden. If a selected region of a pavement is filled with such charging panels, then they could wirelessly charge themselves.



https://www.bike-eu.com/products-innovations/nieuws/2021/01/voi-trials-latest-wireless-charging-technology-in-its-e-scooters-10139640

[CraigDS]

The charging docks prob make the most sense currently. I know a lot of the ebike ones in Liverpool have solar panels on them too (not sure what % of overall elec use this covers like).

It defeats the object of the scooters in that they can be picked up / dropped off anywhere but it seems like (in Liverpool anyway) they’re moving away from that to having more specific drop off points. They did have an incentive in the past where you got £1 back if you parked it in a designated spot so you could maybe still do both models and incentivise dropping it off at charging stations.

[rob1966]

From what I recollect, I think, there are 3 ways of "charging" them.

1. Battery swap - But this could lead to battery theft. And also not possible because the battery is enclosed with the structure and are not separable.

2. Van collect - As you say, a van could drive around picking up scooters that are less than 20% charge, say 3x a day. But that van has to be environmentally friendly to make sense. Pedal vans, as you say, could be going around. I am not aware of such vans here in Germany. There are electric vans that pick them up 2x a day and sometimes overnight.

3. Charging dock - Like the ones shown below. It is possible to undock them by unlocking them. And to lock them again, they need to be bought back to one of the other docks around the city.



Auxilliary:

* Wireless charging - Its a trial project between Imperial College London and Voi Sweden. If a selected region of a pavement is filled with such charging panels, then they could wirelessly charge themselves.



https://www.bike-eu.com/products-innovations/nieuws/2021/01/voi-trials-latest-wireless-charging-technology-in-its-e-scooters-10139640

See I'm struggling to see the environmental benefit of making double the number of batteries, charging points, wireless docking sites, manufacturing the electric vans and the batteries to run them, then charging the things, the digging up roads, laying cables to get 49% of the population who would have walked/cycled to instead use an escooter.

[redbyrdz]

I really don't think people would stop cycling (on their own bike), and instead get a rental scooter. Using your own bike is cheaper, more convenient, and faster. The only reason not to do that is if you don't intend to come back the same way, eg if you expect a lift home. I think the question was either worded that way to include both walking and cycling in the same sentence, or the competition is between rental bikes and rental scooters.

Cycling had a big upswing over the course of the pandemic, at the same time as the scooters became available. If people really went from bike to scooter, the increase in sustainable transport is even greater than thought.

[CraigDS]

See I'm struggling to see the environmental benefit of making double the number of batteries, charging points, wireless docking sites, manufacturing the electric vans and the batteries to run them, then charging the things, the digging up roads, laying cables to get 49% of the population who would have walked/cycled to instead use an escooter.

Why are you fixating on the walking it would replace and not the 46% who would have used some sort of motor vehicle?

[butchersdog]

Why are you fixating on the walking it would replace and not the 46% who would have used some sort of motor vehicle?

Not my post, but it kind of relates to what I was saying, that replacing walking/cycling, combined with trips that wouldn’t otherwise have happened on them make up over half of their use in that study, unless I’ve misread it. No health benefits, eco benefits yet to be confirmed (which I’d expect because we’re still in the trial phase), dangerous to use, and can’t carry anything on them. It just doesn’t sound like that great a solution to replace a car or even a bike in my view Craig, that’s all. I don’t hate them, just trying to be pragmatic about it.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

See I'm struggling to see the environmental benefit of making double the number of batteries, charging points, wireless docking sites, manufacturing the electric vans and the batteries to run them, then charging the things, the digging up roads, laying cables to get 49% of the population who would have walked/cycled to instead use an escooter.

Let me give you an example.

Imagine you live 10 km from the city centre. 10km is too far to walk but too close to use the car. Also, a bumper to bumper traffic makes you go slow and waste more petrol. Searching for parking is a nightmare and expensive if you ever get one. Plus the risk of some sick drunk bastard keying them.

Public transport is not always available and you would have to depend on connection timings to catch the right bus.

You don't want to use your expensive Cube or Miller or Ghost because it will most likely get nicked.

What do you do when you want a solution that solves your mobility problems without having to depend on the fixed timings or worry that your mobility might get nicked?!?

[CraigDS]

Not my post, but it kind of relates to what I was saying, that replacing walking/cycling, combined with trips that wouldn’t otherwise have happened on them make up over half of their use in that study, unless I’ve misread it.

According to that study it suggests it replaces trips which in 46% of the time would have been in some form of motor vehicle (36% being an individual in a car).

No health benefits,

They 100% have some health benefits over using some form of motor transport. They may not give as much exercise as walking/cycling but they do require some effort.

eco benefits yet to be confirmed (which I’d expect because we’re still in the trial phase)

The eco benefits are obvious. Beyond the reduction in CO2 being given off by the reduction of motor vehicle use within the city, you have the added benefits of less cars on the road and less noise.

dangerous to use

As are bikes (mainly due to excess cars on the road...scooters ironically reduce this and probably make roads safer for cyclists).

and can’t carry anything on them.

You definitely can (I do). Plus if you're planning a trip to get something you can plan ahead and take a back pack to put stuff in.

It just doesn’t sound like that great a solution to replace a car or even a bike in my view Craig, that’s all. I don’t hate them, just trying to be pragmatic about it.

Have you used one?

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Also, this doesn't replace walking or biking. Those bring in the max health benefits and eco-friendly mobility. Make no mistake.

This is an intermediate between walking and driving. Places that are too far to walk and too close/cumbersome to drive. That's why you can't use them to go between Liverpool and Manchester. But from Bootle to Sefton or Stanley to Allerton.

Offers flexibility, convenience and practicality.

[CraigDS]

This is an intermediate between walking and driving. Places that are too far to walk and too close/cumbersome to drive. That's why you can't use them to go between Liverpool and Manchester. But from Bootle to Sefton or Stanley to Allerton.

Offers flexibility, convenience and practicality.

Yeah, this is exactly it.

If I'm going the other side of town for some drinks with mates I'll get a scooter there rather than an Uber. It's too far to walk and I'm def not chaining my bike up for a few hours to come back to half of it missing.

If I quickly need to nip the shop then I'll use one. Sure, I could walk this trip (15 mins each way), and often do, but for spare of the moment things I need and when I'm in a rush I'd drive - scooters prevent this.

If I'm going the doctors. Or the barbers. The gym. They are all fairly hefty walks, especially in shitty weather, so I'd normally drive but I'll now normally nip on a scooter.

If I'm going the pub I'll get a scooter there and then a taxi back - I'd have got taxi's both ways previously.


Honestly, I'm seeing first hand with those around me also living in town how much these are being used by residents. I don't commute within the city but I know plenty who do and they're using scooters rather than driving now. Some are replacing walking, sure, but that's because it gives them an extra 30-60mins free time to relax and it improves their way of life (don't under estimate the impact of this).

[WhoHe]

Two of my nephews turned up at ours last night both on brand new Segway scooters, I had a go and it was a good laugh but not sure I would be a regular user, anyone whose ever ridden motorbikes know small wheels are crap and given the state of the roads as well. They of course bombed off using the pavement.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

As for the shopping part.. Sure backpack works. But if you own them, and you do shop regularly and don't want anything on your back, getting one of these would solve your problems.

My friend got one of these in San Fransisco (where he lives) for less than 40 dollars. A cheap and basic trailer that he has been using for 3 years now. Finds the nearest scooter, fixes them on, and goes shopping.

[rob1966]

Let me give you an example.

Imagine you live 10 km from the city centre. 10km is too far to walk but too close to use the car. Also, a bumper to bumper traffic makes you go slow and waste more petrol. Searching for parking is a nightmare and expensive if you ever get one. Plus the risk of some sick drunk bastard keying them.

Public transport is not always available and you would have to depend on connection timings to catch the right bus.

You don't want to use your expensive Cube or Miller or Ghost because it will most likely get nicked.

What do you do when you want a solution that solves your mobility problems without having to depend on the fixed timings or worry that your mobility might get nicked?!?

But there is no reason that the journey in your scenario cannot be done on a pedal cycle. As a 16yr old I did a 22 mile round trip to go to work on my bike, for most people 6 miles should be easy.

Why are you fixating on the walking it would replace and not the 46% who would have used some sort of motor vehicle?

Because in all but one of the scenarios where you use a scooter, you could use a bike instead. Every journey taken on an e-scooter has an impact on the environment. I'm all for getting people out of their cars, mine is used for driving to work or doing a big shop, which cannot be done on a bike or scooter, we walk the 2 mile round trip every day to get what we need for that day, but if I was to start using an e-scooter for them trips, then its worse than if I walked.

Rather than build the infrastructure to run e-scooters, surely the greenest option is to build the infrastructure for cycling? If people really want to use a scooter, what is wrong with the ones that don't have a motor? My kids were easily capable of doing a 2 mile trip when they were 4/5/6, so why can't an adult do the same?

[CraigDS]

Because in all but one of the scenarios where you use a scooter, you could use a bike instead. Every journey taken on an e-scooter has an impact on the environment. I'm all for getting people out of their cars, mine is used for driving to work or doing a big shop, which cannot be done on a bike or scooter, we walk the 2 mile round trip every day to get what we need for that day, but if I was to start using an e-scooter for them trips, then its worse than if I walked.

Rather than build the infrastructure to run e-scooters, surely the greenest option is to build the infrastructure for cycling? If people really want to use a scooter, what is wrong with the ones that don't have a motor? My kids were easily capable of doing a 2 mile trip when they were 4/5/6, so why can't an adult do the same?

I live in a 2 bed apartment with no space to store a bike, let alone one each for me and my gf. This is the case for most people who live in the city, which is who these are aimed at (for removing cars).

I go the gym 5 times a week and walk the dog for an hour+ each day. I don't need the added exercise so I'd say if I want to use a scooter to go the shop in 5 mins rather than fuss about trying to find a rental bike, using a push scooter or walking then it should be an option. It's not always about fitness but wanting to spend more time in your day doing the things you like rather than traveling to and from places.

Plus the infrastructure for scooters is the same as bikes.

[rob1966]

I live in a 2 bed apartment with no space to store a bike, let alone one each for me and my gf. This is the case for most people who live in the city, which is who these are aimed at (for removing cars).

I go the gym 5 times a week and walk the dog for an hour+ each day. I don't need the added exercise so I'd say if I want to use a scooter to go the shop in 5 mins rather than fuss about trying to find a rental bike, using a push scooter or walking then it should be an option. It's not always about fitness but wanting to spend more time in your day doing the things you like rather than traveling to and from places.

Plus the infrastructure for scooters is the same as bikes.

I appreciate that people are doing other things for fitness, but I'm looking at it from an environmental view point. Some people with restricted space can get fold up bikes, but if not, then why not decent rental cycles? The infrastructure isn't the same, as you don't need to lay cables for charging points or build charging stations for pushbikes. Also, is an escooter any better than say a Nissan Leaf or a Mine E?

There is this big focus on electricity as if it magically appears out of thin air, people seem to forget we need power stations to run this stuff. Most houses have tellys, sky boxes/virgin,phones, laptops, alexas all connected to the mains, we're going to need to address all this too and adding more things that need charging isn't better IMO. Isn't lithium mining quite shite too?

[ChaChaMooMoo]

But there is no reason that the journey in your scenario cannot be done on a pedal cycle. As a 16yr old I did a 22 mile round trip to go to work on my bike, for most people 6 miles should be easy.

I hear you mate. I used to bike 10 miles back and forth for 4 years. I love biking. It is still my preferred mode of transport. If my work was at a biking distance, I would have used that, without a question.

Would I want to worry about this when I am out shopping or having a pint with friends? To be honest, no. I go out to have fun and forget any tensions of the day/week, I wish to leave at my convenience without any timetable and stuff, and I also get to not worry about someone nicking anything.

This doesn't replace biking and will never do so. This only offers an alternative to driving short distances.

[CraigDS]

I appreciate that people are doing other things for fitness, but I'm looking at it from an environmental view point.

Environmental is just one aspect of it though. You're basically saying the two options should be walk/cycle or beyond that a motor vehicle (be it own or public transport). There is no acceptance that there needs to be a middle ground option too if you want to find a sustainable solution that will actually get people out of their cars. That solution needs to offer a relatively fast mode of transport that is quickly accessible.

Some people with restricted space can get fold up bikes, but if not, then why not decent rental cycles?

Yeah I'm not riding round on a fold up bike!

You mean the rental bikes which are....electric 

The infrastructure isn't the same, as you don't need to lay cables for charging points or build charging stations for pushbikes.

The rental bikes are electric. Plus the scooters don't need charging stations (they don't currently) - there is a fella going round on a cycle-van thingy collecting them to move them/charge them.

The scooters are smaller, take up much less space on the pavements so you can provide many more in the same area to satisfy demand, and much more user friendly in terms of leaving them near where you need to go (the bikes HAVE to be plugged back in at special areas).

Also, is an escooter any better than say a Nissan Leaf or a Mine E?

Is removing a car off the road / from car parks / etc. better? Yeah, I'd say so.

They add to noise pollution, and they add to the traffic in the centre (which then see's more polluting cars sitting there spewing out their fumes). The number of cars in the city centre is horrendous.

There is this big focus on electricity as if it magically appears out of thin air, people seem to forget we need power stations to run this stuff. Most houses have tellys, sky boxes/virgin,phones, laptops, alexas all connected to the mains, we're going to need to address all this too and adding more things that need charging isn't better IMO. Isn't lithium mining quite shite too?

Yes, you're right it needs addressing. I'm not sure saying "well just walk" is the answer though because it just isn't always an option. Sure, people should walk more where possible, and you'll prob find most who live in the city centre walk a hell of a lot for most trips. If it is then lets start with telling all these rural living fucks to start walking their commute into work.

[redbyrdz]

The fact is, people could have used bikes for these trips for ages, but didn't. We had rental bikes available for a while (they seem to have gone now), but they never had the popularity of the scooters. The scooters clearly fill a gap in transport.

Also, I do have a non-electric scooter, which I used to use 3-4 years ago for getting to and from the train, because it's easier to take on the train. I must have been one of a handful of adults in the whole city doing that. Clearly, non-electric scooters do not have the same appeal as the e ones.

[rob1966]

Nah Craig, when I say rental bikes, I mean just that, bikes not electric motorbikes (which is what ebikes essentially are).

[CraigDS]

Nah Craig, when I say rental bikes, I mean just that, bikes not electric motorbikes (which is what ebikes essentially are).

And where do you rent these from? Given all the rental bikes in Liverpool (if you can find them) are elec now.

[rob1966]

And where do you rent these from? Given all the rental bikes in Liverpool (if you can find them) are elec now.

That was just an alternative option, but obviously you'd need someone to start up a company doing them. If not, we can just keep digging huge holes in the earth to mine lithium, polluting the soil and the air according to friends of the earth,

[CraigDS]

That was just an alternative option, but obviously you'd need someone to start up a company doing them.

There is a reason they stopped doing them in the first place and replaced them with the electric ones! They simply weren't a long term viable alternative to city livers replacing their car journeys.

If not, we can just keep digging huge holes in the earth to mine lithium, polluting the soil and the air according to friends of the earth,

Sure, but it won't mean people will instead walk or use a push bike, near 50% (your source) will get in their car and drive - and not elec cars either (although huge holes and all that if they did).

[Red Beret]

With everyone scootering or driving or electric biking places, it's no wonder there's an obesity problem.  Hell, I get 10k steps a day and I still have a weight problem!

[rob1966]

[kesey]

South Liverpool walls them mate .  At first I thought it was the junction on Queens Drive and North Mossley Hill which would've been impressive as that's one fuckin 'll hill that lad.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Those kids are one stone away from losing their front teeth.

Jeezus how much of a mingebag does one have to be to transport a family on an e-scooter of all things?

Also, what are the cops doing? These things are illegal for more than 1 person where I live and they are monitored regularly. Fine of 60 euros otherwise.

[Tesco tearaway]

South Liverpool walls them mate .  At first I thought it was the junction on Queens Drive and North Mossley Hill which would've been impressive as that's one fuckin 'll hill that lad.

The number plates on the van and cars look foreign... Germany?

[John C]

That's hilarious Rob.
That'll resolve the diminishing numbers of taxi drivers in Liverpool

[ChaChaMooMoo]

The number plates on the van and cars look foreign... Germany?

I don't think so. The road signs are a giveaway that it's probably somewhere in a nation with left-side drive.

[PeterJM]

Got Irish style numberplates and right hand drive.

[moondog]

Like a scally geoguesser? I am not sure about that orange sign or the strange number plates, driving on the left maybe it is suburban Dublin? Definitely a mingebag family.

[rob1966]

South Liverpool walls them mate .  At first I thought it was the junction on Queens Drive and North Mossley Hill which would've been impressive as that's one fuckin 'll hill that lad.

Thought it was Liverpool on first glance too, but the reg plates are Irish

[redbyrdz]

Also, what are the cops doing? These things are illegal for more than 1 person where I live and they are monitored regularly. Fine of 60 euros otherwise.

Quite often see parents picking their kids up from somewhere on them around here. They probably don't even know its illegal.

And I'm not sure if the police is even monitoring traffic anymore, never seen anyone get stopped or pulled for anything. Regularly see drivers run red lights with a police car waiting at them and nothing happens.

[rob1966]

Quite often see parents picking their kids up from somewhere on them around here. They probably don't even know its illegal.

And I'm not sure if the police is even monitoring traffic anymore, never seen anyone get stopped or pulled for anything. Regularly see drivers run red lights with a police car waiting at them and nothing happens.

Essex Police did share a pic on FB of one they had confiscated for being ridden two up, 3pts and £100 fine for the rider, but yeah mainly you never see a plod. Mind you, we have the Tory c*nts to thank for that, GMP lost about 3,000 due to the cuts out of the 22,000 nationwide.

Stopping at red lights is optional by us.