Author Topic: The Murder of George Floyd and Black Lives Matter.  (Read 252312 times)

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #200 on: June 1, 2020, 01:23:14 pm »
If this can be isolated to a race problem in White America then why have Chinese-Americans etc 'made it' economically and don't have run in with the cops?

You advocate the 'system to be burned down'? Then what? How will you re-build it? One vote per person like other democracies? This can be done without 'burning the system down'.

Please detail what and how this new system is going to look like

Hard to know where to start with this, but I would suggest not conflating american asians with black americans at all. Its not enough that they're both non-white for a comparison to be made. There's hundreds of years worth of history that would explain why this is a non-starter for a discussion point.

Secondly, I don't know what it should be replaced with, might surprise you to learn that I am no expert in putting together a functioning society and all that entails. Bit weird to be admitting you dont know something on the internet I know but...I dunno.

I do know however that there are literally millions of American's being failed by the current system which needn't be. People who start out in life with disadvantages that they simply cannot overcome due to the way that country (and they're not alone but this is a US thread) is currently 'functioning'.

Be it because they're born with a certain coloured skin, born in to economic conditions and environments which preclude them from education, born in to socio-economic realities which mean they are not afforded adequate healthcare because it costs too much and they're simply never in a position to be able to afford it, the wage inequalities which go completely unchecked.

The issues the country have are not small and they all stack.

Black men and women are more likely to be born in communities with poor underfunded schools, they're more likely to be born in to communities where their parents are underpaid and have to work longer hours just to survive, they have the shortest life expectancy of any ethnic group and the highest chance that they'll be incarcerated.

So what do America replace the current system with? Fucked if I know. But its clear the current system isn't working, arguably for the majority of its population. It's so deep rooted and SO ingrained within that society, its laws, its law enforcement, its morals even, that it needs radical change not niceties or politeness.

When its failing SO bad for SO many why the fuck would those affected most be interested in maintaining it?

Hard reset and go again. Americans seem happy enough to endorse it on the shores of other countries, might be time for their own.

Offline The North Bank

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #201 on: June 1, 2020, 01:25:49 pm »
you will never eradicate racism/sexism/homophobia both at a subconscious level or an explicit level, but when it’s a country where only two parties are relevant when it comes to gaining power and one of them has clearly been trying to get the vote of the bigots by playing on their bigotry/ignorance etc it’s a big big part of the problem as it’s helped legitimise those views, as evidenced by who is in the White House these days

Unfortunately you can say the same about Brexit. There is a rise of bigotry and ignorance , but we have to deal with the violence side first.

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #202 on: June 1, 2020, 01:26:07 pm »
Well, yes, that would have to happen first and many (more) lives would be lost so I'm not going to sit on my arse here in Liverpool and say what Americans should or shouldn't do.
Really? Yesterday you wanted my country burned to the ground.
I hope they burn the country down to the ground.
This.
To which I responded...
There are 66M people in the UK. Well there are about 3x as many people here in the US who DESPISE Trump and DESPISE racism. And burning my country down to the ground is not going help us.

If you had unrest where you live, would you applaud if your city was burned to the ground? Your entire country? Would it improve the lives of you, your family and friends?
So please stop.
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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #203 on: June 1, 2020, 01:29:55 pm »
Unfortunately you can say the same about Brexit. There is a rise of bigotry and ignorance , but we have to deal with the violence side first.
yeah there’s definitely parallels here, the two major parties in recent years have had their issues internally with racism and have pandered to them, but the violence we’ve seen by the knobs in the states is helping as much as the police violence

Offline ljycb

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #204 on: June 1, 2020, 01:32:03 pm »
Really? Yesterday you wanted my country burned to the ground.To which I responded...So please stop.

Save your energy for those who have created this hostile environment for black people, not the people who believe (correctly) that fundamental changes are needed to address it. You’re coming off as tone deaf with this “But what about me?” crap.

Offline Caligula?

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #205 on: June 1, 2020, 01:46:49 pm »
Save your energy for those who have created this hostile environment for black people, not the people who believe (correctly) that fundamental changes are needed to address it. You’re coming off as tone deaf with this “But what about me?” crap.

Absolute rubbish of a post that is. Why don't you read his other posts on the issue where he has indeed been saving his energy for the people who have created this environment, the government and American society in general? You might want to take a look. But just because he doesn't want his home burned to the ground makes him tone deaf about this issue? Fuck me.

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #206 on: June 1, 2020, 01:51:03 pm »
Absolute rubbish of a post that is. Why don't you read his other posts on the issue where he has indeed been saving his energy for the people who have created this environment, the government and American society in general? You might want to take a look. But just because he doesn't want his home burned to the ground makes him tone deaf about this issue? Fuck me.
its easy to tell people on an Internet forum that someone else’s country should be destroyed when you don’t live there or won’t be affected one bit by it

Offline Skeeve

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #207 on: June 1, 2020, 01:51:04 pm »
To which I responded...So please stop.

Your figures are out by a long way, they'd indicate 2/3 of the population were anti-Trump, no presidential election ever has that kind of margin.

Offline ljycb

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #208 on: June 1, 2020, 01:52:18 pm »
Absolute rubbish of a post that is. Why don't you read his other posts on the issue where he has indeed been saving his energy for the people who have created this environment, the government and American society in general? You might want to take a look. But just because he doesn't want his home burned to the ground makes him tone deaf about this issue? Fuck me.

You’re getting angry at the wrong people, honestly.

Offline Wool

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #209 on: June 1, 2020, 01:54:33 pm »
its easy to tell people on an Internet forum that someone else’s country should be destroyed when you don’t live there or won’t be affected one bit by it
Yup, and it’s also easy to tell people who are angry that they’re being murdered just for existing not to be so angry about it when you’re not in danger of being murdered going for a jog, being murdered for going to the shops, being murdered because a racist police officer just felt like it.

I’ll also just leave this here: https://twitter.com/diepthought/status/1266404535288967168?s=21

When peaceful protests are derided, when voices are quite clearly not being heard, what option is left?
« Last Edit: June 1, 2020, 01:57:00 pm by Wool »

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #210 on: June 1, 2020, 01:58:03 pm »
its easy to tell people on an Internet forum that someone else’s country should be destroyed when you don’t live there or won’t be affected one bit by it

Is this taken directly from American foreign policy or..?

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #211 on: June 1, 2020, 01:58:45 pm »
Yup, and it’s also easy to tell people who are angry that they’re being murdered just for existing not to be so angry about it when you’re not in danger of being murdered going for a jog, being murdered for going to the shops, being murdered because a racist police officer just felt like it.

I’ll also just leave this here: https://twitter.com/diepthought/status/1266404535288967168?s=21
nobody has said black people shouldn’t be angry over it they’re saying people (black, white, Asian etc) shouldn’t be destroying their communities, looting sportswear stores and people like Samatha shader doing what she did as that’s completely wrong, instead be like the majority who are protesting in numbers the right way

As for that tweet, show that to the people who work for those businesses destroyed who no longer have a job to go back to and see if they have that warm and fuzzy feeling

Is this taken directly from American foreign policy or..?
So which Americans on rawk are responsible for American foreign policy?
« Last Edit: June 1, 2020, 02:05:22 pm by Lush is the best medicine... »

Offline ljycb

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #212 on: June 1, 2020, 02:01:16 pm »
Yup, and it’s also easy to tell people who are angry that they’re being murdered just for existing not to be so angry about it when you’re not in danger of being murdered going for a jog, being murdered for going to the shops, being murdered because a racist police officer just felt like it.

I’ll also just leave this here: https://twitter.com/diepthought/status/1266404535288967168?s=21

When peaceful protests are derided, when voices are quite clearly not being heard, what option is left?

Spot on.

Offline oxenstierna

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #213 on: June 1, 2020, 02:03:49 pm »
Yeah, because him as an individual is responsible for the American foreign policy. You dont even know him or his values, hes just concerned about his country where him and his family actually lives being potentially burned to the ground. This place sometimes...

For all we know hes out protesting himself, actually doing something

Offline The North Bank

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #214 on: June 1, 2020, 02:07:18 pm »
Unfortunately its the lack of leadership, justice, and accountability , that has allowed a free for all in the streets. When the police officers become thugs, you cant expect thugs to become police officers. Deal with the cause and then you wont have to deal with the consequences.
Horrible whats happening, businesses already hit by covid getting ruined further, but its not surprising. If you put the criminals in charge, you have to expect crime.

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #215 on: June 1, 2020, 02:09:12 pm »

So which Americans on rawk are responsible for American foreign policy?

Off topic so I won't continue it beyond this, but there's an irony isnt there to American posters decrying the encouragement of civil disobedience or revolution in order to topple a state which they see as not exactly fit for purpose from those outside of it.

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #216 on: June 1, 2020, 02:12:19 pm »
Off topic so I won't continue it beyond this, but there's an irony isnt there to American posters decrying the encouragement of civil disobedience or revolution in order to topple a state which they see as not exactly fit for purpose from those outside of it.
what exactly is your point here?

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #217 on: June 1, 2020, 02:21:28 pm »
what exactly is your point here?

That America needs a revolution and some people, people who are largely comfortable with the status quo, won't like it...I guess.

Offline ljycb

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #218 on: June 1, 2020, 02:23:35 pm »
That America needs a revolution and some people, people who are largely comfortable with the status quo, won't like it...I guess.

Seems fairly straightforward to me at least.

Offline Stockholm Syndrome

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #219 on: June 1, 2020, 02:24:18 pm »
You are right, and I believe what is holding back society is unconscious bias. As a white male, it would be ignorant to deny I have it, and it is uncomfortable. It should be uncomfortable. It's easy for white people to say they are anti-racist, but actions speak louder than words. White people should be quiet and amplify black voices, empathize, learn and listen.

I was brought up in a white family, lived in a part of Liverpool which is 92+% white, went to a Primary and Secondary school which over 95% of student were white, all my friends are white, work in a workplace which is over 90+ white. I have no idea what it's like to live as POC, so I'm keeping my mouth shut, listening and learning.

Very well put.

Honestly as a white Male living in the UK, I dont feel like I am one to comment on the protests and riots, what is right and wrong. I dont know, I really honestly can never know. All I know is that there is a problem, and the best thing I can do is help out whichever way I can. Either by educating myself, listening, supporting through charity or solidarity, letting POC speak for themselves and just help them be heard.

I am not educated enough to question the actions or to speak about what POC want or need, because I dont live that reality that POC live.

Offline Caligula?

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #220 on: June 1, 2020, 02:34:57 pm »
That America needs a revolution and some people, people who are largely comfortable with the status quo, won't like it...I guess.

No, many people aren't happy with the status quo. As is currently evidenced. But to cross your fingers in hope for a full blown revolution where thousands of innocent people could potentially lose their lives from the comfort of your own home thousands of miles away is... Well, the less said about that the better.

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #221 on: June 1, 2020, 02:35:52 pm »
That America needs a revolution and some people, people who are largely comfortable with the status quo, won't like it...I guess.

Yeah and screw all those other innocent people who are going to die in the civil unrest. Fuck em hey?

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #222 on: June 1, 2020, 02:36:31 pm »
That America needs a revolution and some people, people who are largely comfortable with the status quo, won't like it...I guess.
who says America needs a revolution? Has it not escaped you that the person who people touted for said revolution lost twice in the democratic nominations to people who are hardly amazing inspiring candidates? Or, and as much as this may be controversial to some, is that people don’t want to see people needlessly die, people to lose their livelihoods because a bunch of people on a football forum who have zero stake in this tell them they should, even though deep down we all know they hate being told what they should do in their lives, especially by people across the pond?

Very well put.

Honestly as a white Male living in the UK, I dont feel like I am one to comment on the protests and riots, what is right and wrong. I dont know, I really honestly can never know. All I know is that there is a problem, and the best thing I can do is help out whichever way I can. Either by educating myself, listening, supporting through charity or solidarity, letting POC speak for themselves and just help them be heard.

I am not educated enough to question the actions or to speak about what POC want or need, because I dont live that reality that POC live.
good points, also would like to add as a POC that white people telling them they know what is good for them, regardless of what political stance they come from, is literally the worst thing you can ever do, despite how righteous they may think they are

No, many people aren't happy with the status quo. As is currently evidenced. But to cross your fingers in hope for a full blown revolution where thousands of innocent people could potentially lose their lives from the comfort of your own home thousands of miles away is... Well, the less said about that the better.
Selfish, virtue signalling, do as I say not as I would do etc etc

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #223 on: June 1, 2020, 02:37:52 pm »
It was only ever going to be a matter of time until 'Escape from New York' became mainstream news.

Look at America - everyone seems to have a gun, so many in hopeless poverty, so little in the way of fairness, evenness, safety nets and possibilities for the majority. Too many backhanders taken on Environmental matters - leading to poisoned, radioactive and chemically wrecked environments directly affecting people. Too much one-sided law rulings and too many people forced to work as slaves in US Jails.


That country really does look in a mess and then Coronavirus turned up as the light to fire the tinderkeg.


Really not sure how they can address even half of those things going on, but that dickhead supposedly in charge only gives a shit about money, so don't look for any answers there.
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Offline oxenstierna

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #224 on: June 1, 2020, 02:38:43 pm »
No, many people aren't happy with the status quo. As is currently evidenced. But to cross your fingers in hope for a full blown revolution where thousands of innocent people could potentially lose their lives from the comfort of your own home thousands of miles away is... Well, the less said about that the better.

Have to say I agree with you. Not easy this, just glad I don't live in America.

Also, yesterday I felt very "pro-revolution", but then I asked myself: am I willing to actually go there myself and fight the cause?
« Last Edit: June 1, 2020, 02:42:19 pm by oxenstierna »

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #225 on: June 1, 2020, 02:39:45 pm »
No, many people aren't happy with the status quo. As is currently evidenced. But to cross your fingers in hope for a full blown revolution where thousands of innocent people could potentially lose their lives from the comfort of your own home thousands of miles away is... Well, the less said about that the better.

It's absolutely stupid is what it is. The solution to POC being treated disgracefully is to have a revolution that kills many more people? Okay, I can see the logic...

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #226 on: June 1, 2020, 02:41:08 pm »
What if the majority of Americans don't want a revolution? What happens then?

I'm not American. I'm not white. I'm just asking a question.
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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #227 on: June 1, 2020, 02:42:26 pm »
What if the majority of Americans don't want a revolution? What happens then?

I'm not American. I'm not white. I'm just asking a question.

Majority of which Americans?

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #228 on: June 1, 2020, 02:44:11 pm »
It's absolutely stupid is what it is. The solution to POC being treated disgracefully is to have a revolution that kills many more people? Okay, I can see the logic...
id guess quite a few who are pushing that are deep down anarchists, at least in places where they won’t be affected

What if the majority of Americans don't want a revolution? What happens then?

I'm not American. I'm not white. I'm just asking a question.
gradual change id guess rather than full blown revolution? Then again with a revolution you’d still end up with a small number of people at the top who end up with the bulk of the wealth, has happened everywhere that has had one

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #229 on: June 1, 2020, 02:44:57 pm »
When Colin Kaepernick started a peaceful protest movement about this very same issue 4 years ago, many white Americans changed the narrative, through the media, through the president and with their opinions across social media, into disrespecting the flag and the military.

Now that there is a violence, those same people are questioning why?

Ironic

Offline ScouserAtHeart

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #230 on: June 1, 2020, 02:44:58 pm »
Majority of which Americans?

Americans in general i.e. the entire population.
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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #231 on: June 1, 2020, 02:47:23 pm »
There's protesting, there's violent protesting where you put in Starbucks' window, and then there's looting. In Chicago it just devolved into straight up looting yesterday, no revolution on anyone's minds, just roving gangs of thieves smashing in anywhere they could get in.

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #232 on: June 1, 2020, 02:47:44 pm »
Yeah and screw all those other innocent people who are going to die in the civil unrest. Fuck em hey?

Thousands of innocent people are dying unjustly every year already  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #233 on: June 1, 2020, 02:48:09 pm »
This is a couple of years old and a longish read, but extremely apposite in the current situation:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/02/the-unwelcome-revival-of-race-science
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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #234 on: June 1, 2020, 02:48:48 pm »
Thousands of innocent people are dying unjustly every year already  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So what's a million more eh?

As long as one of them isn't you? Oh wait you're thousands of miles away. Righto nevermind.

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #235 on: June 1, 2020, 02:50:10 pm »
Al Qaeda literally didn't exist before 9/11, it was in effect created by the CIA as an excuse to go to war in Afghanistan. Before that there were just a bunch of small organisations that were largely pushing a pro-Jihad Islamist agenda. If you can't see the possible parallels between that and Trump labelling Antifa as terrorists while armed police enforce strict curfews I don't know what to tell you.

Because tarring anti-facsists with the same brush as Muslim extremists is ridiculous

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #236 on: June 1, 2020, 02:56:37 pm »
Americans in general i.e. the entire population.

America is split. The majority of White americans don't feel the same as all of Black americans. That's the issue. There are more White Americans than Black americans.

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #237 on: June 1, 2020, 03:00:42 pm »
When Colin Kaepernick started a peaceful protest movement about this very same issue 4 years ago, many white Americans changed the narrative, through the media, through the president and with their opinions across social media, into disrespecting the flag and the military.

Now that there is a violence, those same people are questioning why?

Ironic

Nobody is saying that the current protests and/or level of violence is injust. It was always going to come to this, and it's completely understandable. The tipping point just simply came for many, many people. But to revel in the hope that some sort of revolution where a lot more violence will come into play which will inevitable lead to the deaths of many more people is just ridiculous in my opinion.

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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #238 on: June 1, 2020, 03:02:02 pm »
Nobody is saying that the current protests and/or level of violence is injust. It was always going to come to this, and it's completely understandable. The tipping point just simply came for many, many people. But to revel in the hope that some sort of revolution where a lot more violence will come into play which will inevitable lead to the deaths of many more people is just ridiculous in my opinion.

Caligula? aren't you based in Florida? What are you doing about it other than pissing and moaning on a Liverpool FC forum?

Offline Macphisto80

  • The Picasso of RAWK. But wants to shag Charlie Brooker. Go figure! Wants to hear about bi-curious Shauno's fantasies.
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Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #239 on: June 1, 2020, 03:04:32 pm »
Not sure if this has been posted yet, but this is amazing in so many different ways.

https://twitter.com/NicsMonique/status/1267387845469245440?s=20