Topic: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?

[BarryCrocker]

All Bangladesh has to do is reject any application to grant her citizenship/passport and don't allow her off a plane if she arrives.

[TepidT2O]

All Bangladesh has to do is reject any application to grant her citizenship/passport and don't allow her off a plane if she arrives.

Which would probably then leave her stateless?

[Kashinoda]

I really don't see what her being groomed has to do with anything.

Everyone fighting for ISIS has been groomed/brainwashed, that's quite literally their recruitment process.

[TepidT2O]

I really don't see what her being groomed has to do with anything.

Everyone fighting for ISIS has been groomed/brainwashed, that's quite literally their recruitment process.

If she’s been groomed for sexual purposes instead, would you say the same thing?

Remember, she has not committed any territory acys.

It’s quite complex

[J_Kopite]

Remember, she has not committed any territory acys.

Are we sure of that?

[TepidT2O]

Are we sure of that?

We have no evidence that she has.  Others may of course

[Kashinoda]

If she’s been groomed for sexual purposes instead, would you say the same thing?

Remember, she has not committed any territory acys.

It’s quite complex

If she happened to be a boy the notion of grooming wouldn't even be mentioned.

If we want to make apples to orange comparisons though do pedophiles get to be excused if they (as is often the case) were abused as children?

She's joined a hostile foreign force  and wants to come back as if nothing happened, if you're going to defect then actually defect. She's showing absolutely no remorse, she's doing interviews on TV and articulating herself well.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

ITV News showed Ms Begum a copy of the Home Office's letter - which had been sent to her mother. Ms Begum said: "I am a bit shocked. It's a bit upsetting and frustrating. I feel like it's a bit unjust on me and my son."

She added: "Another option I might try with my family is my husband is from Holland and he has family in Holland.

"Maybe I can ask for citizenship in Holland. If he gets sent back to prison in Holland I can just wait for him while he is in prison."

Ms Begum's husband is a Dutch convert to Islam and is thought to have surrendered to a group of Syrian fighters about two weeks ago.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47301623

This just has a twist.

[BarryCrocker]

Which would probably then leave her stateless?

The home secretary cannot revoke citizenship “if he is satisfied that the order would make a person stateless”, but can do with “reasonable grounds for believing that the person is able, under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom, to become a national of such a country or territory”. It is understood Javid will use the fact that Begum could apply for a Bangladeshi passport to justify revoking her UK citizenship.

"Could" apply for a Bangladeshi passport doesn't mean they will grant her one which undoes his ability to make her stateless.

Is there any precedent for this?
This is a relatively rare case, although one legal source claimed the government had tried this before and lost. Most cases have featured those who are dual nationals.

By contrast, many other British Isis recruits have been allowed to return. The home secretary may be asked at any appeal to explain why those suspected of fighting have been allowed back into the UK, while Begum – who is not thought to have been a combatant – has been stripped of her citizenship.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/20/shamima-begum-could-the-plan-to-revoke-her-citizenship-be-stopped

[Mutton Geoff]

Some are playing with fire here you set a precedent that any Home Secretary can revoke a person citizenship to score political points where does that end ?

People say she knew what she was doing well i work with 15 year olds some are mature and certain of their future path in life, others are not as certain and looking for something in their lives, these can be easily swayed and start blindly trusting what any adults preach to them, so her age at the time is a factor in this.
Every school that i know of has a watchful eye or policy if you like to deal with any signs of suspected radicalisation in their students it is set down with the schools child safety policies and i have sat through enough Inset days when this is discussed at length and believe me this policy applies to far younger than 15.

So i dont go for this she knew what she was doing because unless you are her you dont know how her mind was altered by these adults who sent her on this journey.

As for what should happen next well without the knee jerk reaction of they will give her a council house and she will live off our benefits, i think she should be brought back, questioned here, have her state of mind examined, let the full process of our laws and mental health experts deal with her and move on.

One other danger this Home secretary has maybe not thought about is with his rash action is has he made her a convenient Martyr figure for the people that radicalise others?

The other side of the coin is may stop others but it can also the effect of radicalising far more fighting in her name here in the U.K.

 

[J_Kopite]

She feels hard done by?

I’d play the world’s smallest violin for her but in the caliphate, music is haram.

[gazzalfc]

It's very dangerous ground to step on for a government that typically doesn't do well in these types of situations.

There is a huge element of bowing to public pressure and trial by media which brings out the gammon. Making a person stateless that hasn't technically committed a crime until she sets foot back on UK soil sets a dangerous precedent.

What I would say is that we should have one of the best intelligence and counter terrorism teams in the world and that you would hope that there would be a heightened level of monitoring if she ever was to come back to the UK.

[killer-heels]

"Could" apply for a Bangladeshi passport doesn't mean they will grant her one which undoes his ability to make her stateless.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/20/shamima-begum-could-the-plan-to-revoke-her-citizenship-be-stopped

Javid is taking a punt. He doesnt care whether she comes back or not, its just that he has now played up to his Tory base and xan blame it on Gauke and the judges/judical ststem.

[BarryCrocker]

Javid is taking a punt. He doesnt care whether she comes back or not, its just that he has now played up to his Tory base and xan blame it on Gauke and the judges/judical ststem.

Same issue down here where the govt stripped an Australian born ISIS member who's currently in jail in Turkey. His father is Fijian and the Australian govt believes he's one of theirs even though he's never been in Fiji and his father never applied for his son's Fijian citizenship.

It's all causing a shit storm between the two countries.

[.adam]

Some excellent points in this thread.

The arrogance of the British government in saying "you take her" to Bangladesh is just incredible.

Take her back (she should make her own way here and no public money should be spent in helping her return) and then prosecute her for any offences committed. Given her lack of remorse and clear danger to public safety, no judge would be lenient in sentencing. During her time in prison, she should be counselled to deradicalise and rehabilitate.

[Trim0582]

I am uneasy with this whole thing. A government deciding to revoke citizenship is clearly open to abuse in future, saying that, the pure lack of remorse shown is concerning.

My feeling is to apply UK law when she lands in the UK. Allow intel teams to thoroughly investigate her, if they find nothing I am not sure anything can and should be done.

The police, government and judicial system cannot decide to abandon the rule of law, even in circumstances when that would feel like the "right" thing to do.

[Original]

I think she should be let back in, and I look forward to seeing her on I'm a celebrity.

Very good

[.adam]

I am almost certain that joining a terrorist organisation will be a crime under UK law and will carry a heavy sentence.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Some are playing with fire here you set a precedent that any Home Secretary can revoke a person citizenship to score political points where does that end ?

Spot on, as is the rest of your post.

[TepidT2O]

If she happened to be a boy the notion of grooming wouldn't even be mentioned.

If we want to make apples to orange comparisons though do pedophiles get to be excused if they (as is often the case) were abused as children?

She's joined a hostile foreign force  and wants to come back as if nothing happened, if you're going to defect then actually defect. She's showing absolutely no remorse, she's doing interviews on TV and articulating herself well.

Her being a boy is irrelevant. She was a minor.

[johnybarnes]

How often do grooming victims state that they have no regret about what has happened? The groomer in this analogy would be her Dad by the way who went to various marches with fellow extremists.

[stevensr123]

Her being a boy is irrelevant. She was a minor.

well that is bull shit.

If she was a guy who went to Syria at a young age to fight for  those bastards,there would not be a debate over if he was a minor.

For me it's a case if obviously it's against international law so bring her back, and put her or anyone like her in prison for ever. She was very happy being under them when they where beheading people left and right and "winning". She and her kind have blood in their hands and should be locked up and  throw away the keys.

If they do revoke her citizenship though I honestly couldn't give a fuck.

[OneTouchFooty]

From a slight devil’s advocate POV:

Are we giving up on de-radicalising people in the UK? What’s the point of PREVENT if we now just refuse to rehabilitate offenders and assume they are all beyond help or repair? We rehabilitate rapists, murderers and even paedophiles but not teenage non-combatants who involve themselves in terrorism?

All this poundshop populism, faux-tough guy posturing does is open up a can of worms if we start breaking international legal conventions.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Some are playing with fire here you set a precedent that any Home Secretary can revoke a person citizenship to score political points where does that end ?

People say she knew what she was doing well i work with 15 year olds some are mature and certain of their future path in life, others are not as certain and looking for something in their lives, these can be easily swayed and start blindly trusting what any adults preach to them, so her age at the time is a factor in this.
Every school that i know of has a watchful eye or policy if you like to deal with any signs of suspected radicalisation in their students it is set down with the schools child safety policies and i have sat through enough Inset days when this is discussed at length and believe me this policy applies to far younger than 15.

So i dont go for this she knew what she was doing because unless you are her you dont know how her mind was altered by these adults who sent her on this journey.

As for what should happen next well without the knee jerk reaction of they will give her a council house and she will live off our benefits, i think she should be brought back, questioned here, have her state of mind examined, let the full process of our laws and mental health experts deal with her and move on.

One other danger this Home secretary has maybe not thought about is with his rash action is has he made her a convenient Martyr figure for the people that radicalise others?

The other side of the coin is may stop others but it can also the effect of radicalising far more fighting in her name here in the U.K.

I cant agree with much of that Geoff
So what are you suggesting we do with the poor victim, let her live with her parents who used to take her to hardline Islamist meetings?

[Kenny's Jacket]

It's very dangerous ground to step on for a government that typically doesn't do well in these types of situations.

There is a huge element of bowing to public pressure and trial by media which brings out the gammon. Making a person stateless that hasn't technically committed a crime until she sets foot back on UK soil sets a dangerous precedent.

What I would say is that we should have one of the best intelligence and counter terrorism teams in the world and that you would hope that there would be a heightened level of monitoring if she ever was to come back to the UK.

Joining ISIS is a crime

[Clayton Bigsby]

If she was yes sir, no sir,3 bags full sir, would she have gotten her Citizenship revoked. We will never know but I doubt it. Being so flippant has cost her dearly.

[OneTouchFooty]

Joining ISIS is a crime

Do you want the UK to be able to deport foreign criminals/terrorists?

[Kenny's Jacket]

How often do grooming victims state that they have no regret about what has happened? The groomer in this analogy would be her Dad by the way who went to various marches with fellow extremists.

Yes exactly.  She isnt the victim.

[stevensr123]

Yes exactly.  She isnt the victim.

she herself and said she isn't. She was 15 and was mature enough to organise all this shit.


Simple fact is the ONLY reason she wants to come home is they are on the verge of defeat. It isn't because she is remorseful or regrets what she did. It's because she knows her precious state is fucked. Look at her fucking interview ffs and the lack of remorse shown  with the Manchester bombing.

[gazzalfc]

Joining ISIS is a crime

Which is why she hasn't committed a crime until she steps foot back on UK soil where she can be tried in a criminal court. Until she does then she is innocent until she is proven guilty.

I am in no way defending her actions. Being a part of a terrorist organisation is a crime and should be eradicated. But, revoking citizenship without a hearing or being given fair chance to explain her actions in front of those that can make an independent judgement based in law is wrong.

[vagabond]

I really don't see what her being groomed has to do with anything.

Everyone fighting for ISIS has been groomed/brainwashed, that's quite literally their recruitment process.

Very true, but it was her age at the time that is important. Of course to some extent, you have to be brainwashed to believe in the mission of ISIS, but we generally have different responses when the person being brainwashed is a child.

[vagabond]

How often do grooming victims state that they have no regret about what has happened? The groomer in this analogy would be her Dad by the way who went to various marches with fellow extremists.

Very often in fact if they are barely days away from the entire event. It takes people years if not decades to work through the trauma of grooming. You may have no sympathy for her, but you can't change the way human psychology works.

[Red James]

She has absolutely no remorse and no regret. But hey, at least she's not lying about it and shedding crocodile tears to win more bleeding hearts. She's made her bed and now she can lie in it.

[stevensr123]

Very true, but it was her age at the time that is important. Of course to some extent, you have to be brainwashed to believe in the mission of ISIS, but we generally have different responses when the person being brainwashed is a child.

she wasn't a "child". She was a young adult. A year away from what some on the left want the voting age to be.

Sure you can say she was Brain  washed. But you can say that about anyone in a cult. Where do you draw the line ?

[vagabond]

she wasn't a "child". She was a young adult. A year away from what some on the left want the voting age to be.

She was 15 when she left. She was being groomed from before then. It's not clear how long it went on for. It may have started when she was 13/14. I don't know what we gain from arguing over the semantics of whether she was a child or a young adult. But it seems clear to me that anyone who is being brainwashed at that age is a victim.

[No666]

Can you get legal aid if you're not a British citizen? If not, then I assume there's an ulterior motive to this, other than grandstanding on Javid's part.

[OneTouchFooty]

she wasn't a "child". She was a young adult. A year away from what some on the left want the voting age to be.

Sure you can say she was Brain  washed. But you can say that about anyone in a cult. Where do you draw the line ?

Sorry but regardless of this the bigger point is you can’t just unilaterally revoke her citizenship. You deal with that once she’s been arrested on arrival and investigated.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Which is why she hasn't committed a crime until she steps foot back on UK soil where she can be tried in a criminal court. Until she does then she is innocent until she is proven guilty.

I am in no way defending her actions. Being a part of a terrorist organisation is a crime and should be eradicated. But, revoking citizenship without a hearing or being given fair chance to explain her actions in front of those that can make an independent judgement based in law is wrong.

Im not advocating revoking citizenship
As for innocent until guilty, she has already admitted joining ISIS

[Kenny's Jacket]

She was 15 when she left. She was being groomed from before then. It's not clear how long it went on for. It may have started when she was 13/14. I don't know what we gain from arguing over the semantics of whether she was a child or a young adult. But it seems clear to me that anyone who is being brainwashed at that age is a victim.

I think that she has already stated she isnt a victim.

[Iska]

Can you get legal aid if you're not a British citizen? If not, then I assume there's an ulterior motive to this, other than grandstanding on Javid's part.

Yes.  The immigration tribunals are full of cases on legal aid.  She’ll get legal aid and I wouldn’t be surprised if her case runs through all the appeal courts as well.

Sorry but regardless of this the bigger point is you can’t just unilaterally revoke her citizenship. You deal with that once she’s been arrested on arrival and investigated.

That’s simply not correct though.  The power is there in section 40 of the British Nationality Act 1981, and its unilateral for the Home Secretary.  You might be getting it confused with a criminal punishment, which is a totally separate thing.