Topic: Marvel Musings. Now with Spidey Spoilers.

[Scottymuser]

Daredevil was fantastic and the majority of the Netflix Marvel stuff was good.
God knows what they are going to do with Daredevil on Disney +. I'm guessing a bait and switch at some point though.
Either way I won't be watching. Cancelled my sub after Andor finished. Which was great but it remained an isolated beacon in a sea of Star Wars themed bilge.
No interest in their upcoming series based on comics that were cancelled due to being crap and not selling, or pointless side characters from WandaVision and Hawkeye.
Movie wise, Phase 5 looks to be going in the same direction as Phase 4 so I'll watch Guardians 3 but not wasting my money or time on any of the rest.
As for the critics, they either live in the same narrow Hollywood bubble or are paid Disney shills.
Like pundits praising Man City.

Star Wars tv stuff have been mostly really good - Mando, Bad Batch and Andor were all out and out great; Boba Fett and Kenobi were good fun (with some episodes that were great) - I haven't seen Visions yet but it looks interesting.  I am really looking forward to Ashoka too.  I am watching and looking forward to more stuff on Disney+ then netflix right now - or at least "original netflix"  - the last good thing Netflix put out was Big Mouth Season 6 in October  (I gave Only Murders ... a chance - about 3-4 episodes, but found it completely mediocre at best), and looking at all the upcoming new/recurring shows coming up, the only one I am interested in is Sex Education season 4.

[Armand9]

I just rewatched The Incredible Hulk from phase one (Iron Man II as well for similar reasons)

it's a bad movie, we all know it's a bad movie, worst movie in the first 3 phases hands down, so i wondered how bad is it and after watching so many bad movies in phase 4, where would it sit

Spider-Man: No Way Home, is better than (easily, it's a good movie)

The Incredible Hulk is 'better' than

(levels of shite order)

Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (i rewatched it hoping it would get better, it got worse)
Black Widow (first half was going ok then turned to utter garbage)
Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings (hot mess, tho i liked the father arc)
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (can't blame acting, can blame script, dialogue and appalling action sequences, whoever did this has no clue on that aspect for sure)
Thor: Love and Thunder (almost couldn't finish it with the constant barrage of unfunny shite, Bale was the only good thing in it)
Eternals (so bad i wouldn't know where to start)

the ones below Hulk isn't an actor problem for the most part, it's just terrible writing in general, in most aspects of writing, constant unfunny 'marvel humour', action scenes are generally a hot mess, often difficult to even follow, with editing in the sewer

The Incredible Hulk is crap, as are the films below it. You could make an argument some are better than Hulk, for sure. But here was my cutoff point - sometime down the line i can imagine watching the Hulk again. None of the films below it will i ever watch again, not a chance, i know im never going back to them ever. I tried with Dr Strange and that got worse. The others aren't getting better and im done with them anyway.

I was trying to work out why i can go back and watch one crap movie over another crap movie. I think it came down to that with the Hulk i'll enjoy the moments in it i like and getting from A to B to get to those moments is bearable. With the others in the list below it, if there are moments i like (some have literally nothing i like, eg Eternals), getting from A to B is fucking unbearable with, apart from other things, the insufferable 'marvel humour' that drowns all their movies since thanos fucked off.

Another thing that occured to me, as an aside more than anything, is that while the Hulk was a bad movie it didn't really damage the Hulk as a character, it's just a bad movie. Not only did we get a slew of bad movies in phase 4, they damaged their characters, Thor is now a complete joke and the Hulk is pitiful, to name the two prime examples.

[John_P]

Expecting a drop of over 80% this weekend for Ant Man in the US box office. One of the biggest ever for a film grossing over $100 million in its first weekend. Not good when it's supposed to be the film setting up what's coming.

[The G in Gerrard]

Expecting a drop of over 80% this weekend for Ant Man in the US box office. One of the biggest ever for a film grossing over $100 million in its first weekend. Not good when it's supposed to be the film setting up what's coming.

The film has bad reviews or what reason is there for such a drop?

[wampa1]

She-Hulk was fantastic fun.  Especially the cameos from Wong and Madissyn and Daredevil.  Played for laughs, which is the right way of doing it - and the court room stuff I enjoyed a lot more than more "realistic" type depictions would have been (mainly as I hate legal drama type shows).

Yeah, She-Hulk was great. My *only* gripe is that if you are doing a 'this ending is shit, let's do a better one' you need to actually show the better one and not just the aftermath.

[John_P]

The film has bad reviews or what reason is there for such a drop?

Think it's been the worse reviewed of all the MCU films on Rotten Tomatoes

[mikey_LFC]

Have to say, at a certain point if you’re just going to have to move on. To rank all those films below Incredible Hulk is mad and the level of contempt you have for some of them is just not healthy.

We are on a new phase now so either you can move on, you  can continue to hate every new Marvel movie or you can stop watching.

I’d have six of the first three phase movies below Eternals (my least favourite of phase 4). But having said that, I wouldn’t say there are any MCU films I haven’t enjoyed, even if some are worse than others. I’d personally have none ranked below a 6/10.

Quantumania was very enjoyable. A nice move away from the main MCU for the most part as it’s essentially in a different universe. Nice references to the blip and a good foundation for going forward. Ragnarok vibes for a lot of it. Some excellent performances too and some good laughs. Was a big fan of MODOK haha.

[ianburns252]

Have to say, at a certain point if you’re just going to have to move on. To rank all those films below Incredible Hulk is mad and the level of contempt you have for some of them is just not healthy.

We are on a new phase now so either you can move on, you  can continue to hate every new Marvel movie or you can stop watching.

I’d have six of the first three phase movies below Eternals (my least favourite of phase 4). But having said that, I wouldn’t say there are any MCU films I haven’t enjoyed, even if some are worse than others. I’d personally have none ranked below a 6/10.

Quantumania was very enjoyable. A nice move away from the main MCU for the most part as it’s essentially in a different universe. Nice references to the blip and a good foundation for going forward. Ragnarok vibes for a lot of it. Some excellent performances too and some good laughs. Was a big fan of MODOK haha.

It is the same are the vitriol being shown with Star Trek - if you hate it that much just switch off or stick to the bits you do like

[RedGuy]

How can you know if you like it before you see it?

[mikey_LFC]

How can you know if you like it before you see it?

If you have a pattern of not liking a franchise for several films in a row, stop going to see them. If you don’t enjoy the experience why put yourself through it? It’s not like watching Liverpool games and sticking with them through thick and thin.

For example, I enjoyed the initial Fast and Furious films when I was a kid, by the fourth one I saw they were no longer for me / or had gone down hill, over the last couple of films, so I stopped going to see them. I didn’t continue watching them and moan about their quality on the internet.

I think many people should just except they’re going to be miserable about everything post-Endgame and leave the newer films to those who actually still enjoy them.

Too many people go into watching these films with a critical eye first rather than for the enjoyment of the spectacle. They’ve not been and will never be Oscar worthy films, and the difference between the best of them and the worst of them is actually quite small, partly because their styles are so similar and they are essentially all part of the same story. Given that, I fail to see how someone could really dislike any of them when they enjoyed earlier films.

They all sit within a narrow band of about 6.5-8/10. For me the whole universe is greater than the some of its parts and that’s the legacy it’ll leave on cinema and superhero movies. I don’t personally go into each film wondering if I’ll like it or come out of them judging the direction the universe has taken against what I wanted or thought should have happened, I just let it unravel and take it in as the next chapter in an epic story with each shifting the state of the universe in some way leaving interesting new dynamics to consider.

We should play the role of The Watcher, neutral, unbiased observers over events happening across a universe.

[LiamG]

Think it's been the worse reviewed of all the MCU films on Rotten Tomatoes

Completely baffled by this, it’s nowhere near being the worst MCU film

[Schmidt]

Completely baffled by this, it’s nowhere near being the worst MCU film

Feels like reviews are becoming more and more heavily influenced by external factors. The Marvel/superhero "fatigue" and the poor reaction to the most recent phase has probably had an effect, where reviewers have decided to pile on to this one movie in particular rather than judging it on its own merits.

[John_P]

All the news articles about the way they've treated the VFX companies probably hasn't helped either.

[Zee_26]

Marvel are in a bit of a tough position with critics and fans alike. If they make a standalone film, the criticism is that they aren't progressing the overarching story and the large universe they've built. If they do do that, the argument is that they are just using these films as extended trailers for the big crossover event.

Of course, it is possible to do both quite well as they've done so in the past but that was with 1/2 films a year and no tv series. Now it's often 3 films and at least 2 series a year to manage. The rush to get this phase through together with introducing new characters and while those left from the old roster are still able to do so is actually harming their overall product. The VFX feels less polished, the scripts don't feel as sharp and the tropes are becoming more noticeable (Does everyone just have nanotech now, and how many teenage geniuses can there be in the MCU?). It's probably a contributing factor to why their most recent films have this cookie cutter feel.

That being said, the films are still watchable albeit declining in quality and haven't reached the nadirs of something like Wonder Woman 2 for example. I think what might harm the MCU more than shoddy VFX is this growing irreverence to their source material which isn't being helped by having Rick and Morty screenwriters helm their scripts for a lot of their phase 4 and 5 slate. If you hire writers, talented no doubt, but who have spent years treating everything as subversive and throwaways to gags or punchlines, you shouldn't be surprised that your grand operatic saga ends up having those same traits. 

[Schmidt]

Marvel are in a bit of a tough position with critics and fans alike. If they make a standalone film, the criticism is that they aren't progressing the overarching story and the large universe they've built. If they do do that, the argument is that they are just using these films as extended trailers for the big crossover event.

Of course, it is possible to do both quite well as they've done so in the past but that was with 1/2 films a year and no tv series. Now it's often 3 films and at least 2 series a year to manage. The rush to get this phase through together with introducing new characters and while those left from the old roster are still able to do so is actually harming their overall product. The VFX feels less polished, the scripts don't feel as sharp and the tropes are becoming more noticeable (Does everyone just have nanotech now, and how many teenage geniuses can there be in the MCU?). It's probably a contributing factor to why their most recent films have this cookie cutter feel.

That being said, the films are still watchable albeit declining in quality and haven't reached the nadirs of something like Wonder Woman 2 for example. I think what might harm the MCU more than shoddy VFX is this growing irreverence to their source material which isn't being helped by having Rick and Morty screenwriters helm their scripts for a lot of their phase 4 and 5 slate. If you hire writers, talented no doubt, but who have spent years treating everything as subversive and throwaways to gags or punchlines, you shouldn't be surprised that your grand operatic saga ends up having those same traits. 

It doesn't help that there are people constantly meddling in projects, complaining that Doctor Strange 2 is too scary or that Ant-Man 3 is too sad and pushing reshoots/edits for both. Writers/Directors need to be given a framework to work in, but then left to their own devices, as it's rare for meddling from the top to achieve anything other than completely ruining the movie.

[demain]

Have to say, at a certain point if you’re just going to have to move on.

I tend to agree with this, I found the new Thor film so execrable that I have totally given up on watching the MCU films.

[John_P]

It doesn't help that there are people constantly meddling in projects, complaining that Doctor Strange 2 is too scary or that Ant-Man 3 is too sad and pushing reshoots/edits for both. Writers/Directors need to be given a framework to work in, but then left to their own devices, as it's rare for meddling from the top to achieve anything other than completely ruining the movie.

I think that's the issue for me, what's the point of bringing in directors with backgrounds if your going to meddle with it all.

[redwillow]

Due to our family expanding i am absent from the cinema but managed to finish Black Panther this weekend, I haven't read much reviews or discussion but i really enjoyed it. Thought it was back to the solid blueprint for superhero films, good people get attacked by evil villain, good people have to improve and create plan to attack back. Top 3 MCU for me since End Game.

I called the fact

Spoiler

T'Challa was going to have a son, which i assume means he is a mutant also similar to how Namor was created

[close]

Really can't wait to watch the new Ant Man.

[El Lobo]

I know you've gone to a fair amount of effort typing all that but...wow Seems harsh to call it gibberish...but it sort of is. All opinions I guess as others have said, but if you're that almost I dunno...bitter, above Marvel movies now, just give them a miss.

[RyanBabel19]

Enjoyed Quantumania

Majors is sublime and another flawless casting, super versatile and conveys emotion wonderfully well. A strong menacing villain is a staple in comic book adaptations, especially with good dialogue.

Thanos
Joker
Bane
Kang

All exceptional

[Armand9]

I know you've gone to a fair amount of effort typing all that but...wow Seems harsh to call it gibberish...but it sort of is. All opinions I guess as others have said, but if you're that almost I dunno...bitter, above Marvel movies now, just give them a miss.

if it 'sort of is', is it harsh?

but yeah you're not wrong in that i am getting to the point of giving it a miss, altho im not bitter, more disappointed

and you know what it's like, it's shit i would love to be good and you keep going in hoping they've turned it around

Guardians is next and above anything else on the horizon, im defo giving that a go cos it's the last thing i feel will be good, loved the first one, second one was decent, hope they nail the landing

after that it's the Marvels - well that's been kicked back for the 5th or 4th time, reshoots again and they already did reshoots (and these weren't the normal pickups), so that movie is in trouble and i have little hope for that one, especially after learning the general scenario (and they've kicked a couple of tv shows down the road - Ironheart and Echo - so all is not good, that much is obvious)

altho listening to someone who read the script of secret invasion, he said that was good, more grounded than recent mcu (a good thing in my eyes), so you never know with the movie but if the script is good going in, that's a postive

[Livbes]

Enjoyed Quantum. Bat shit crazy and like a marvel/Star Wars/avatar mash up on acid. But plenty action and pretty non stop. Majors is everywhere now and I’m all for it. He’s excellent.

[LiamG]

Seen some rumours....

Spoiler

A Kang variant is going to turn up in Shang Chi 2  as well, Does anyone think having too many variants show up in different movies/tv series that people will just get bored of him as a villain?

Also, another thing about the new Ant Man, does anyone think at the end that when Scott Lang is walking down the street thinking to himself that he is stuck in a time loop?

[close]

[Armand9]

Seen some rumours....

Spoiler

A Kang variant is going to turn up in Shang Chi 2  as well, Does anyone think having too many variants show up in different movies/tv series that people will just get bored of him as a villain?

Also, another thing about the new Ant Man, does anyone think at the end that when Scott Lang is walking down the street thinking to himself that he is stuck in a time loop?

[close]

Spoiler

From a story/arc perspective, if he keeps losing i doubt he's gonna be viewed as overly daunting. He's 0 for 2 against opponents that aren't formidable in the Marvel universe and as far as im in touch with that character from back in the day, these were the two most powerful versions of him iirc - maybe that's changed in recent times, i dont know. The build up to thanos as the arching big bad was done with more skill, he didn't lose, his minions lost, big difference. So the big evil we managed to vanquish, with our 'best' with the Avengers, were only his minions... ah fuck - makes the boss man's arrival a daunting prospect. With Kang they can play the 'relentless' card cos no matter how many you stop, there's more coming, that can be an interesting approach. Trouble is, if they're all pussies who gives a shit.

[close]

[John_P]

Seen some rumours....

Spoiler

A Kang variant is going to turn up in Shang Chi 2  as well, Does anyone think having too many variants show up in different movies/tv series that people will just get bored of him as a villain?

Also, another thing about the new Ant Man, does anyone think at the end that when Scott Lang is walking down the street thinking to himself that he is stuck in a time loop?

[close]

Spoiler

saw a video about that bit at the end, with the way some of the people on the street are looking at him, apparently a couple can be seen walking past him, but then are in front of him again. There's Ant-Man graffiti on the wall, something we'd only seen previously in the MCU for dead Avengers post end game. Plus quite a few people in greens and purples. The ending the more I think about it does seem too neat and almost dreamlike.

[close]

[Barefoot Doctor]

Ooh, Jon Bernthal back as Punisher in the Daredevil show.

[Armand9]

Victoria Alonso is gone

the start of the house of cards tumbling on this shitshow? with Antman flopping (like it or not, it's lost money that = a box office flop), and seemingly every project pushed back, some significantly for sure, probable cancellations incoming (ironheart? blade? that fucker is in an utter mess) and Iger saying they have to focus on 'quality over quantity' (an admission in itself the quality hasn't been there), it suggests Disney Marvel has finally started smelling the coffee but i didn't expect her to be the first out.

it would be tempting to imagine them getting back on track but i've 0 confidence that will be the case and i expect they'll even double down until Marvel is as dead as Star Wars, so im not sure what her exit signifies but you'd think it has to mean something unless it's for personal reasons.

the last quote i recall from her was that the name X-Men is outdated due to the number of females in it, yep, no tears shed here

[ShatnersBassoon]

and visual fx houses rejoice.

she was really petty and vindictive and was one of the main reasons marvel were so toxic to work with. perhaps all the negative reports, people refusing to work with them, etc has led to her being ousted (she was head of post production )

[Armand9]

all you say is on the money but she was much more than that, she's basically to disney marvel what Kathleen Kennedy is to disney star wars

im currently listening to a disney insider (he's well known for being one btw, he's not fake) who did a run down on her influence at disney marvel, ironically, today

and has just updated his shit on hearing of her leaving 

as he points out in the latter vid, for someone to be gone on friday and not a peep to come out over the weekend is in itself pretty remarkable, just think about chapek, fired on sunday by text at an elton john gig and the masses were on to it that day, and he was the fucking CEO

all a bit weird atm but looks like her head rolled for this inexorable descent into mediocrity

[Wolverine]

God they are remaking Daredevil as well with mostly the same cast but it's going to be utter shit PG nonsense with cringe jokes.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

The actors that played Karen and Foggy haven't been recast I had heard, must admit though, I am dreading this more than any other project they have done so far. No way will they replicate the Netflix show.

[El Lobo]

Looking forward to it. Deadpool too. It'll be interesting to see what they do with Wolverine, as he was excellent in the last few movies (Logan especially) so hopefully they dont make Wolverine into a whiny, annoying twat.

[Wolverine]

The actors that played Karen and Foggy haven't been recast I had heard, must admit though, I am dreading this more than any other project they have done so far. No way will they replicate the Netflix show.

I can just imagine what they will do to the Punisher in this, will be brutal. I mean remember what they did to Kingpin in the Hawkeye series was so shit compared to Daredevil.  The Netflix show was almost perfect, this will just be a pale cheesy imitation.

[Armand9]

Daredevil should be a tap-in, a main cast that has already proved itself on netflix - their Daredevil is the best marvel character tv show i've seen

do i trust disney to get it right, fuck no, we already have had a glimpse of disney daredevil through She-hulk and King Pin through Hawkeye, you know, remember Daredevil and the 'walk of shame' (chicks dont get it, dudes dont have walks of shame, it's just meh, that happened) in the shite costume and King Pin struggling with a neophyte Hawkeye, do me a favour

great lead actors, great characters, great stories to draw from, all we need is decent writers...

best of luck with that one

[El Lobo]

Dyou know what doesn't facilitate change? When people constantly watch things they know they're not going to enjoy I just had a look at the Apprentice viewing figures, considering we all criticise what its become and how fucking stupid it is....and they're not going down. So why would they change anything? Because Disney really REALLY aren't fussed about you calling Daredevil stupid and She-Hulk stupid and Loki stupid and the new Antman stupid if you still watch it (which I assume you will).

[Betty Blue]

Dyou know what doesn't facilitate change? When people constantly watch things they know they're not going to enjoy I just had a look at the Apprentice viewing figures, considering we all criticise what its become and how fucking stupid it is....and they're not going down. So why would they change anything? Because Disney really REALLY aren't fussed about you calling Daredevil stupid and She-Hulk stupid and Loki stupid and the new Antman stupid if you still watch it (which I assume you will).

Where have you seen the viewing figures? Per episode according to wiki there's a quite clear downward trend both over the series and compared to previous years - Ep 1 and 2 hit highs of 7.37-7.59 and then dropped to 6.01-6.22 in Eps 8 and 9. Last year figures never fell below 6.77 per episode. In fact, these are the lowest individual episode figures since Season 4, so perhaps not the best comparison.

It's not viewing figures alone in any case. The backlash/disappointment towards The Apprentice and in turn the MCU's latest content is getting more and more vocal. It may not seem like a cause for alarm at present while money is still flowing, but at some point people will get off the train. For The Apprentice that is already happening and may prove worse at the end of the current series, for Marvel it may be at the end of this current Phase. We shall see, I guess. But Marvel/Disney appear to be having a rethink at present, so they seem to be attempting to arrest this. Which is a positive in my book. No company worth its salt should ignore downward trends of this kind.

[El Lobo]

Where have you seen the viewing figures? Per episode according to wiki there's a quite clear downward trend both over the series and compared to previous years - Ep 1 and 2 hit highs of 7.37-7.59 and then dropped to 6.01-6.22 in Eps 8 and 9. Last year figures never fell below 6.77 per episode. In fact, these are the lowest individual episode figures since Season 4, so perhaps not the best comparison.

It's not viewing figures alone in any case. The backlash/disappointment towards The Apprentice and in turn the MCU's latest content is getting more and more vocal. It may not seem like a cause for alarm at present while money is still flowing, but at some point people will get off the train. For The Apprentice that is already happening and may prove worse at the end of the current series, for Marvel it may be at the end of this current Phase. We shall see, I guess. But Marvel/Disney appear to be having a rethink at present, so they seem to be attempting to arrest this. Which is a positive in my book. No company worth its salt should ignore downward trends of this kind.

Apprentice? Just Wikipedia. They're up and down but very consistent around 7-7.5 million on average. Doesn't go up or down enough remotely for it to be clear that people have stopped watching it (maybe it will this year but they certainly haven't previously).

Its vocal...and people keep watching, and going to the cinema. That's the point. Everyone in this thread who is vocally critical will still watch it all, so where's the necessity to get better? Someone spouting off on a forum who then consumes everything they make anyway. If it was one series, or movie, then cool. But its been years. They should have gotten off the train many, many moon(knight)s ago.

Poster A - Loki was rubbish from start to finish
Poster B - You still watched it all?
Poster A - Well yeah
Poster B - You see they're doing a Moonknight series?
Poster A - It'll be shit
.......
Poster B - You watch it?
Poster A - Yeah fucking dreadful right from the start
Poster B - You see all of them?
Poster A - Well yeah,  what was that ending all about?
Poster B - You seen the adverts for She-Hulk?
Poster A - Oh my god right? Looks like a train wreck
Poster B - You still gonna watch it?
Poster A - Well yeah
.....
Poster B - So?
Poster A - Oh my god mate, fucking dreadful. What the absolute fuck, that last episode right?! Appalling stuff. And what they did to Daredevil
Poster B - You seen they're doing Daredevil for Disney+?
Poster A - Oh my god it'll be so bad
Poster B - You still gonna watch it?
Poster A - Well yeah

And round and round we go. I'm not sure I'll ever understand people continuing to consume media they know they're going to hate...and then moaning about it. Not just Marvel. I bet there's people still watching Coronation Street *cough Nick* who think its shit but still watch it.

[tubby]

I think people are starting to drop off.  I didn't bother with She-Hulk after the first episode because it was so bad.  Didn't bother with Ms Marvel either and haven't been to the cinema to see a Marvel movie since Endgame.

It's not necessarily quality either, I think it just reached its apex with Endgame and anything after was going to be a tough sell.

[Betty Blue]

Well, like I say Wiki is showing a ratings drop off across the season. Only two episodes hit above 7 million. All the rest are below 7 and dropping to low 6s in the latest episodes. The only consistency there is towards losing viewers. It may not look huge on paper, but these are their lowest ratings since 2008. So clearly people are switching off and likely it will get worse if they don't make a course correction. Let's leave it at that. This is not The Apprentice thread.

I personally have stopped automatically going to the cinema to see Marvel films. Previously I was consuming everything. Including all the series. I was a Marvel addict and always defended it to the hilt with friends. But for me there came a breaking point where I just felt like I wasn't getting the same enjoyment out of what they were putting out. In fact, some of it was actively pissing me off. She-Hulk the main culprit, which is the only Marvel series I couldn't finish. Still, I have liked other shows and movies along the way. I re-watched No Way Home the other night and still love it. So I don't think the MCU is in complete shambles. But it's clear that films are being less well received and that's also showing in the numbers. Phase 3's lowest grossing film (Ant Man and the Wasp) earned 600m+ worldwide and six more broke the 1B barrier. Phase 4 started with 3 films hitting 380-430m. Their bigger name heroes each achieved 800m+ figures, but only No Way Home hit the 1B mark Disney will be wanting and many of these still received fairly mixed reviews. Love and Thunder in particular was horribly received. In fact, most of the films in Phase 4 are amongst the lowest audience scores of any MCU films. The trend here is clear IMO. People are not enjoying the content as much as they did previously. They are still watching it, but for how much longer?

The attachment people have to the MCU and their unwillingness to completely walk away makes perfect sense though. For many of the fans here Marvel is not just the cinematic universe. Many of us have grown up reading the comics, watching the cartoons, playing with the action figures. We're all invested and we all want to see our childhood heroes realised on the screen. Just walking away from that isn't easy. So no, I don't expect the shift to be sudden with Marvel and I perfectly understand why many still watch despite not enjoying it. These are fans who are hoping for that course correction. So this is why they watch and they complain because it's something they want to love and want to be great again. But eventually these people will walk away too and it does appear that Marvel/Disney are concerned for that possibility going forward.

[John_P]

The 2021 MCU films box offices were massively compromised by the Pandemic, and Disney deciding to have them as PPV on Disney+ and then giving them a shockingly short theatrical window before being added the Disney+ for everyone.
Also not helped by the films, a black widow film that was 5 years too late, and two films introducing new characters.

Spider-Man NWH definitely shows the big name characters still could draw an audience with the box office that pulled in.

Whilst Dr Strange 2 did better than the original, and Thor about $100 million less than Ragnorok. Though with those films you've now got the issue China seems to not be letting hardly any foreign films screen there and Russia isn't getting the films at all. Plus Disney still giving the films a ridiculously short cinematic window before it appears on Disney+, noticeably Spider-Man NWH is the only MCU film to go past $1 billion and that's the one that wasn't going to hit Disney+ 6 weeks later.

They definitely need to do something though what with all the noise you hear about SFX departments, issues with scripts, late re-shoots. I understand the idea that phase 4 was supposed to be resetting the world post endgame but it all feels so disconnected with regards to the time line of events (it used to be taken that the majority of films from Avengers onwards was basically chronological). Now you've had 7 films and about 6 TV series and I've not a clue how they all fit together time line wise (obviously all the films getting delayed 12 months didn't help this).