Topic: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach

[TepidT2O]

We will start the ARE when the training ground is finished.  Simple

Loan rates aren’t a problem, FSG borrowed the money for the main stand and passed it on.

Anfield road will close, this was already in the outline planning permission

[Eeyore]

What’s the point of a clause if no one can be told about it?

When a player signs a contract part of the contract will include a confidentiality agreement outlining exactly what each party can release to third parties. It is pretty routine for contracts to stipulate that players must be informed when bids over a certain amount are received by the club or even when bids are received from certain clubs. Those clauses are in the vast majority of cases bound by confidentiality agreements. You only have to think of the implications to a PLC of the release of information regarding a clause in the contract of their star player.

Arsenal should not of been made aware of the clause and should not of stupidly bid the exact amount to trigger the clause.

If the clause is not ambiguously worded then they carry as my weight here as they do in Spain.

If there was a clause then it was clears not worded all that well and open to interpretation.

I don't know how much you weigh Craig  but the situation in Spain is different. In Spain the League rules stipulate that players must have a buyout value. The buyout value is relevant only if the player can come up with the money and buy himself out of his contract. Even then it is not clear the legalities of doing so. Firstly the Premier League doesn't have compulsory buyout values for players and secondly you would have to consider the tax liabilities for the player.

[vivabobbygraham]

So, there, mister boots macsmarty pants, Craig

[Alan B'Stard]

We will start the ARE when the training ground is finished.  Simple

Loan rates aren’t a problem, FSG borrowed the money for the main stand and passed it on.

Anfield road will close, this was already in the outline planning permission

My thoughts exactly. All businesses have operating budgets and for a large scale construction project such as the training ground would have exhausted said budget.

I don't think we are under any pressure to increase capacity. Using the main stand as a live example, we know that FSG will donthe right thing even if it takes another season or 2 to implement.

[Eeyore]

My thoughts exactly. All businesses have operating budgets and for a large scale construction project such as the training ground would have exhausted said budget.

I don't think we are under any pressure to increase capacity. Using the main stand as a live example, we know that FSG will donthe right thing even if it takes another season or 2 to implement.

It wouldn't be coming out of the Clubs budget though. FSG would be lending the Club the money. As for FSG doing the right thing will that be the right thing for FSG shareholders, the best thing for Liverpool FC or the best thing for us fans.

[El Lobo]

[Alan B'Stard]

It wouldn't be coming out of the Clubs budget though. FSG would be lending the Club the money. As for FSG doing the right thing will that be the right thing for FSG shareholders, the best thing for Liverpool FC or the best thing for us fans.

Fair enough if it's in the shape of a zero interest loan - it still has to be paid back.

However you want to spin it - it has to be good for Liverpool FC as a collective!

[AndyMuller]

Excellent usage of a gif.

[SteveZissou]

With the money from Coutinho, UCL win, reaching the final last year and some good business with sponsorships etc, we should already have the money to pay the stadium expansion that we had. It should already be paid.
The annual transfer budget is something we should have prepared anyway, and certainly had enough leftover after doing well in net transfers for many windows.

[Alan_X]

It wouldn't be coming out of the Clubs budget though. FSG would be lending the Club the money. As for FSG doing the right thing will that be the right thing for FSG shareholders, the best thing for Liverpool FC or the best thing for us fans.

It's not just financial resources. A multi-million pound construction project needs input and focus from senior management.

[Alan_X]

With the money from Coutinho, UCL win, reaching the final last year and some good business with sponsorships etc, we should already have the money to pay the stadium expansion that we had. It should already be paid.
The annual transfer budget is something we should have prepared anyway, and certainly had enough leftover after doing well in net transfers for many windows.

That's not the way business finances work. For a start, only a mug would use transfer cash from Coutinho on a building project. You use low-interest or interest free borrowing for building projects because the payback is in the future. There's some cost for the finance but you aren't pissing away cash now for ticket sales in the future.

You're also mixing up revenue and profit. You have to take off running costs, overheads, salaries and bonuses off the revenue to get the profit.

[SteveZissou]

That's not the way business finances work. For a start, only a mug would use transfer cash from Coutinho on a building project. You use low-interest or interest free borrowing for building projects because the payback is in the future. There's some cost for the finance but you aren't pissing away cash now for ticket sales in the future.

You're also mixing up revenue and profit. You have to take off running costs, overheads, salaries and bonuses off the revenue to get the profit.

Of course what you saying is true and known. The record ''profits'' in the last accounts is the result of what I said. I don't have to spell it out - profit and revenue etc. I'm writing the post in two minutes while doing many other things.
Now, what you said about using the money for now is better than on paying the stadium costs is also true... but if those profits are not used and still saved up... then I don't see a problem in using a large chunk of it in the stadium. Of course I'd rather see that invested in the team myself, but it doesn't look like we going to do that this season.

The problem with waiting on the money each season, is that everyone thinks the Coutinho money went on Alisson and Virgil... but like I said, we had a number of good windows with very low net spend and so we were owed a big spend even without the Coutinho cash incoming.

[Alan_X]

Of course what you saying is true and known. The record ''profits'' in the last accounts is the result of what I said. I don't have to spell it out - profit and revenue etc. I'm writing the post in two minutes while doing many other things.
Now, what you said about using the money for now is better than on paying the stadium costs is also true... but if those profits are not used and still saved up... then I don't see a problem in using a large chunk of it in the stadium. Of course I'd rather see that invested in the team myself, but it doesn't look like we going to do that this season.

The problem with waiting on the money each season, is that everyone thinks the Coutinho money went on Alisson and Virgil... but like I said, we had a number of good windows with very low net spend and so we were owed a big spend even without the Coutinho cash incoming.

I don't know where to start with that. 'Having a few good windows' is meaningless in this context. What were the terms of those transfers? Do we get all the money from sales straight away? And if we've got a surplus in the transfer budget shouldn't it be used for transfers?

It should have nothing to do with a capital investment that will be paid off through ticket sales and other match day income. The club may take a view that there are other factors to be taken into account - the Anfield Road will increase ticket revenue but also improve relations with fans (especially Members like me who aren't getting tickets in the two big sales) and because it should improve the atmosphere and make Anfield even more of a fortress.

[Ipcress]

Does anyone know if the architects/construction company they are using on the training ground is the same as the ones that they used for the main stand? Could it simply be that they want to use the same guys, so that it is limited to one major project at a time?

There is so much we don't know about going on behind the scenes, that, with their track record, I'm happy to leave them to it. I would have though that it was good enough for most balanced people to give them the benefit of the doubt at least.

[Alan_X]

Does anyone know if the architects/construction company they are using on the training ground is the same as the ones that they used for the main stand? Could it simply be that they want to use the same guys, so that it is limited to one major project at a time?

There is so much we don't know about going on behind the scenes, that, with their track record, I'm happy to leave them to it. I would have though that it was good enough for most balanced people to give them the benefit of the doubt at least.

I doubt if that would be an issue. As I said further back, it's more likely to be the focus and input of the internal management team.

[SteveZissou]

I don't know where to start with that. 'Having a few good windows' is meaningless in this context. What were the terms of those transfers? Do we get all the money from sales straight away? And if we've got a surplus in the transfer budget shouldn't it be used for transfers?

Like I said above. Don't need to spell everything out. Not writing a book and not doing the financial accounts here. Obviously, we don't get all the money at once, there's complicated terms, there's wages, there's all kinds of ins and outs. But the profits and accounts for each year is reported to the public and so we can see that too, and we're not just talking simple addition of transfers (the way the media simply adds it up), many of us here know that's not how it works... but it's safe to say the club is safe cos of the 'good windows' with net spending so that is relevant and we know we got a safety net for repayments if things don't work out elsewhere.

Ultimately, what you said is true, it's smarter to pay back another way... and what I'm saying is that we do have the money from all the profits and good business to pay it anyway. I'm not saying we did and have to pay it back right now. i got some debt to pay myself, i got the money to pay it, but I rather use that money for having a good time each month than paying all my debts at once.

[Alan_X]

Like I said above. Don't need to spell everything out. Not writing a book and not doing the financial accounts here. Obviously, we don't get all the money at once, there's complicated terms, there's wages, there's all kinds of ins and outs. But the profits and accounts for each year is reported to the public and so we can see that too, and we're not just talking simple addition of transfers (the way the media simply adds it up), many of us here know that's not how it works... but it's safe to say the club is safe cos of the 'good windows' with net spending so that is relevant and we know we got a safety net for repayments if things don't work out elsewhere.

Ultimately, what you said is true, it's smarter to pay back another way... and what I'm saying is that we do have the money from all the profits and good business to pay it anyway. I'm not saying we did and have to pay it back right now. i got some debt to pay myself, i got the money to pay it, but I rather use that money for having a good time each month than paying all my debts at once.

I give up.

[SteveZissou]

I give up.

You must be really negative LOL. Even though 3 posts up I said you're right anyway but you try to find a way to find holes even though its a big holy night cos Salah is coming home and we have to thank God for it and give blessings for this night, but what has that got to do with the profits I wonder, nothing... or maybe something. But you choose to imagine that I/we/somebody doesn't know something about some transfer thing that was not thought about cos we don't mention it in the sentence.

[El Lobo]

You must be really negative LOL. Even though 3 posts up I said you're right anyway but you try to find a way to find holes even though its a big holy night cos Salah is coming home and we have to thank God for it and give blessings for this night, but what has that got to do with the profits I wonder, nothing... or maybe something. But you choose to imagine that I/we/somebody doesn't know something about some transfer thing that was not thought about cos we don't mention it in the sentence.

That might make sense but it’s so hard not to hear it in Vicky Pollards voice

[Alan_X]

You must be really negative LOL. Even though 3 posts up I said you're right anyway but you try to find a way to find holes even though its a big holy night cos Salah is coming home and we have to thank God for it and give blessings for this night, but what has that got to do with the profits I wonder, nothing... or maybe something. But you choose to imagine that I/we/somebody doesn't know something about some transfer thing that was not thought about cos we don't mention it in the sentence.

Not negative - we're just talking at cross purposes and we both have better things to do. It's just the internet and anyway, I'm pretty confident the Anny Road will be built in the next few years, however it's funded.

[Alan_X]

That might make sense but it’s so hard not to hear it in Vicky Pollards voice

[John C]

That might make sense but it’s so hard not to hear it in Vicky Pollards voice

A minute before you posted that last night I quoted it saying you had to read it in a stoned voice but deleted it thinking I was being sly

[meady1981]

WHAT ABOUT A MEGAKOP WHENS THE MEGAKOP

[Red Beret]

We will start the ARE when the training ground is finished.  Simple

Loan rates aren’t a problem, FSG borrowed the money for the main stand and passed it on.

Anfield road will close, this was already in the outline planning permission

Not been following on this, is the stand going to be completely demolished and rebuilt?

[meady1981]

Think he means in a ‘close the deal!!!’ way.
It’ll be a similar construction process  as the main

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

I don't agree with this let them all get better thing. We didn't win at City, Arsenal, Utd or Chelsea last season. If the top 6 all get better it makes life harder for us perhaps more than City who have a larger squad (of quality) to deal with it.

What we need is is them to remain weaker and for us to stay on Citys toes and hope they get distracted with certain trophies they have never won before.

Us going 90+ points again is going to be a massive challenge, it's weird to think our closest rivals getting stronger will help our cause.

Is signing players the only way of getting stronger as a team? I think we should sign players but I also trust Klopp's ability to get more from the players who played last season and the ones coming back from injury.

[ScouserAtHeart]

I came across this on a random comment section online. Just a reminder of how far we've come:

Controversial tycoons' turbulent Kop years
With their ill-fated tenure at Anfield set to end - and not without a fight - Goal.com UK charts the disastrous reign of 'Uncle George and Tom'...

January 2007 - Dubai International Capital (DIC) pull out of a takeover bid after they try in vain to force Liverpool to come to a decision while the club's board consider a new offer made by American tycoons George Gillett and Tom Hicks.

February 2, 2007 - Gillett and Hicks offer £435 million for the ownership of Liverpool. This includes £215m for the building of a proposed new stadium on Stanley Park. The club's board, led by chairman David Moores and chief executive Rick Parry, unanimously recommend that this offer be accepted.

February 6, 2007 - The offer from Hicks and Gillett is accepted, valuing the club at £218.9m (£5,000 per share), and confirming debts of £44.8m. In their original press conference, Gillett promises work on Liverpool's new stadium would begin immediately, saying: "The spade has to be in the ground within 60 days."

May 2007 - Liverpool are beaten by AC Milan in the Champions League final, with Hicks promising afterwards that serious funds will be made available to manager Rafael Benitez with which he can strengthen the squad. It results in the infamous soundbyte: "If Rafa said he wanted to buy Snoogy Doogy we would back him."

Summer 2007 - Liverpool embark on a major spending spree, adding Spanish star Fernando Torres, as well as Ryan Babel and Yossi Benayoun. Supporters welcome Torres, a club record signing at around £20m, in particular.

November 2007 - Benitez and the owners fall out over the Spaniard's transfer targets for January 2008. Gillett and Hicks reportedly tell Benitez to 'concentrate on training and coaching the players he already has'. Benitez responds with a frosty press conference in which he repeats that phrase in answer to every question. Liverpool's form, impressive in the early weeks of the season, begins to deteriorate.

January 14, 2008 - Hicks admits the club had made an approach to former Germany manager Juergen Klinsmann, with a view to Klinsmann replacing Benitez as manager. The meeting took place at the height of the feud between Benitez and the owners in November. Hicks says, however, that such a move was "an insurance policy, to have him become manager if Rafa left for Real Madrid".

January 22, 2008 - Liverpool supporters, who have formed the supporters' union Spirit of Shankly, protest against the Americans' ownership before, during and after the 2-2 draw with Aston Villa. Banners pledge their support for Benitez, as well as urging Gillett and Hicks to sell to DIC, who are rumoured to be interested.

April 2008 - It emerges that Gillett and Hicks are barely on speaking terms, throwing the club into turmoil. Rick Parry, it transpires, was present when Gillett and Hicks met with Klinsmann the previous November, further souring his relationship with Benitez. Days later, Hicks rounds on Parry, accusing the chief executive of failing in his commercial and professional duties, and advising the termination of his contract. Parry would leave his role at the end of the following season.

January 2009 - Benitez is left frustrated by the club's transfer policy, as funds are denied following the sale of striker Robbie Keane, and the club fail to act swiftly over the contract of Daniel Agger. Benitez himself refuses to commit to a long-term deal until assurances are made regarding the control of the club.

March 2009 - Rumours surface ahead of the Reds' Champions League clash with Real Madrid that Benitez has quit. They prove to be unfounded, and days later it is announced that Parry will be leaving the club at the end of the season. Liverpool finish the campaign second, just four points short of Manchester United.

Summer 2009 - Christian Purslow, financial expert and Liverpool supporter, is appointed as managing director. His brief is to find £100m of fresh investment, which will help satisfy Liverpool's creditors. The playing side suffers, with Xabi Alonso and Alvaro Arbeloa sold, and Alberto Aquilani and Glen Johnson added, but further funds are denied.
September 2009 - Gillett criticises Benitez in a meeting with supporters' union Spirit of Shankly. The American claims that Liverpool's financial situation is healthier than that of Manchester United, and also denies promising fans that work on a new stadium would begin 'within 60 days' of his arrival at Anfield.

January 2010 - Liverpool fans are left incensed after Tom Hicks Jnr, a board member at Anfield, responds to an e-mail from a supporter with a foul-mouthed tirade. Hicks Jnr is forced to resign, with commercial director Ian Ayre and financial director Philip Nash added to the board.

March 2010 - Reports surface suggesting a bid of £110m has been made from the Rhone Group - a New York-based private equity firm - for a 40 per cent stake in Liverpool. Gillett and Hicks fail to respond to the offer within the deadline.

April 2010 - Gillett and Hicks announce the appointment of British Airways chairman Martin Broughton, who will oversee the formal sale of the club as soon as possible. The Americans' statement reads: "Owning Liverpool Football Club over these past three years has been a rewarding and exciting experience for us and our families. Having grown the Club this far we have now decided together to look to sell the Club to owners committed to take the Club through its next level of growth and development."

May 2010 - Sunday Telegraph reports that Dubai International Capital were close to a £500m takeover prove wide of the mark. The group that initially missed out on buying the club to Hicks and Gillett and were believed to be ready to commit funds for player transfers and for a new stadium.

August 2010 - Chinese investor Kenny Huang announces his interest in acquiring the club. After initial claims of backing from his nation's government and ability to buy any player Roy Hodgson wanted, the 46-year-old officially announces his withdrawal from the race on August 21.

The Huang situation was matched by the approach from businessman Yahya Kirdi. The Syrian - who headed a consortium of Middle East investors - initially claimed to be in advanced negotiations on August 4, before he announced he expected to conclude a preliminary deal before the season's opening fixture against Arsenal on the 15th.

Again, no offer was agreed.

September 2010 - In a bid to retain control, co-owner Tom Hicks attempts to refinance the £237m debt to the Royal Bank of Scotland. If unable to find fresh credit, the Texan could be forced to relinquish his investment on October 15.

Reports emerge on September 19 that a £280m package had been agreed with private equity firm Blackstone. A large-scale campaign from Liverpool supporters follows and the company announces the following day that they had no intention of concluding a deal to leave Hicks stranded.

October 2010 - With the date looming to repay RBS or face a £60m penalty charge, rumours emerge that a proposed deal with the New England Sports Venture (NESV) - headed by multi-millionaire Boston Red Sox owner John W. Henry - has been agreed on the 5th.

A boardroom struggle ensues, with an official statement from the club detailing Hicks and Gillett's attempts to remove chairman Martin Broughton, managing director Christian Purslow and commercial director Ian Ayre from the board and install Mack Hicks and Lori Kay McCutcheon.

The following day, a statement is released by chairman Martin Broughton to confirm that a proposed sale to NESV had been agreed subject to legal challenge from the American duo.

Royal Bank of Scotland, the club's major creditors, take out an injunction to prevent Hicks and Gillett changing the makeup of the board to prevent NESV's proposed takeover, and the full case is heard at the Royal Courts of Justice on October 12.

Returning his verdict on the 13th, Justice Floyd rules that Hicks and Gillett have indeed given up the right to change the board's makeup — paving the way for Broughton et al to complete the sale of the club to NESV pending a board meeting later in the day.

John W. Henry is surprisingly part of the board meeting, saying he is “confident” as he enters the building for talks. However, as discussions are taking place, it emerges Hicks and Gillett have been granted an injunction by a Texan court to halt the sale of the club to NESV.

Another hearing is called for October 14 after Hicks and Gillett are granted the injunction. However, the owners are accused of “outrageous” behaviour as it’s revealed the Texan court knew little about the court hearing taking place. Justice Floyd rules against Hicks and Gillett, meaning the English directors of Liverpool are allowed to discuss the £300m sale of the club to NESV.

Martin Broughton declares himself hopeful the sale of Liverpool to NESV will be completed on Friday, October 15 and that John W. Henry will attend the Merseyside derby against Everton. Meanwhile, courts adjourn in Texas, as the club's directors attempt to completely remove Hicks and Gillett's temporary restraining order.

Mr Justic Floyd rules on October 14 that the Texas restraining order is unlawful as the case "has nothing to do with Texas", and Hicks and Gillette are despatched back to court to get it removed. The next day Hicks releases a statement apparently conceding defeat to NESV but vows to sue the Liverpool board for an "illegal sale" to the tune of £1bn.

At 4pm on Friday October 15 NESV complete their £300m takeover of Liverpool, making John W Henry, owner of the Boston Red Rox, the Anfield club's new owner.

https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2010/10/14/1881043/the-definitive-timeline-how-hicks-and-gillett-took-liverpool

[Red Beret]

I still have the Guardian's live blogs from the takeover.  Printed them out for posterity. Remember watching it like a fecking hawk in work.

It's easily forgotten as well how Hicks especially stayed on the sidelines for at least a year, pouring through documents; looking for a loophole or mistake that would validate his lawsuit - always pleading for more time from the judge because he couldn't find anything and couldn't get his head around the fact.  But he was used to dealing with people far less competent and eventually just ran out of money credit to fight his case.

FSG dropped their counter lawsuit as a result.  I could understand it as a "goodwill" gesture by better men who had better things to do with their time, energy and money, but a part of me sorely wished FSG and Henry had carried on to well and truly run Hicks into the ground.

[wige]

Remember watching it like a fecking hawk in work.

I remember following it on RAWK and a certain QC (Kavanagh maybe?) who was lawyering (LOL) on behalf of the club getting cheered for certain arguments/statements like he was scoring winning goals

Such a bizarre time/period

[aggerdid]

Special mention to the american fella who chucked a coffee in hicks face in new york. Lets not forget him

[Slick_Beef]

I remember following it on RAWK and a certain QC (Kavanagh maybe?) who was lawyering (LOL) on behalf of the club getting cheered for certain arguments/statements like he was scoring winning goals

Such a bizarre time/period

Grabbo off the bench!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Grabiner,_Baron_Grabiner

His argument proved he was a red.....

[wige]

Grabbo off the bench!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Grabiner,_Baron_Grabiner

His argument proved he was a red.....

City AM "Match report"

Lord Grabiner QC steals show with a match-winning cameo:

IT WASN’T quite Athens 2005, but Liverpool’s High Court victory represented an exhilarating comeback of sorts. And the match-winner this week was not Steven Gerrard but the more scholarly, if less athletic, figure of Lord Grabiner QC. The legal heavyweight, reputed to be the second highest paid barrister in the land, merely watched from the bench in the early stages of Tuesday’s hearing, as Richard Snowden QC outlined Royal Bank of Scotland’s case against Tom Hicks and George Gillett. Matters took a surprising turn when the American pair’s barrister, Paul Girolami QC, skilfully began to sow seeds of doubt about the legitimacy of the bank’s case and sought to unpick the threads of its argument, swinging momentum in his clients’ favour. Were Hicks and Gillett, who stood accused of trying to delay or scupper a sale, really going to snatch victory and dash the Liverpool board’s plans to sell the club to New England Sports Ventures in Court 16? Enter Grabiner. Liverpool’s QC chose his moment to pipe up and began to bulldoze the objections one by one. He showed wit, flair and a remarkable knowledge of case law, even if he did consider its use vulgar, referencing cases from 1974 and, in one crowd-pleasing move, 1896. Only the judge Mr Justice Floyd knows how much Grabiner’s intervention influenced his judgement in Liverpool’s favour, but from the gallery he looked the clear man of the match.

-----------

Mental

[PaulF]

City AM "Match report"

Lord Grabiner QC steals show with a match-winning cameo:

IT WASN’T quite Athens 2005,

Is there anything correct in the rest of the article?

[ScouserAtHeart]

Kenny Huang was a hero for one brief shining moment as well

Then people found out he was full of shit

[newterp]

Kenny Huang was a hero for one brief shining moment as well

Then people found out he was full of shit

The rocket!

[fredfrop]

I remember email bombing that NY finance company while Gillett was sitting outside waiting to meet them.

[TepidT2O]

I remember email bombing that NY finance company while Gillett was sitting outside waiting to meet them.

That was Deutsche Bank

Amongst many others.  And it worked

[Hazell]

Kenny Huang was a hero for one brief shining moment as well

Then people found out he was full of shit

Peter Lim was almost a hero as well. But then people discovered a few years later he appointed Gary Neville as Valencia manager.

[free_at_last]

I joined RAWK just as we ousted them - hence my username

Who can forget this campaign by Spirit OF Shankly(my daughters are in there somewhere) :
http://new.spiritofshankly.com/representation/campaigns/tom-hicks-and-george-gillett/not-welcome-anywhere-grid

[free_at_last]

WHAT ABOUT A MEGAKOP WHENS THE MEGAKOP

I haven't given up on that(You may say I'm a dreamer etc). The accountants will tell you that it wouldn't be cost effective but maybe FSG would look at the intangibles and the boost to the brand. I want to come home to a 20,000 capacity Kop with a heavy roof and the sound echoing and rolling along the back wall....but there's a thread in the Anfield Stadium forum about that