Topic: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach

[vivabobbygraham]

Ooook, pilgrim. Get off your horse and drink your milk, Ted.

Sorry, Chops, I see the words fist and ring in the same sentence and I come over all Father Jack...

[JC the Messiah]

If the league is bread and butter then the CL is a scone with clotted cream and jam. 

Cream or jam first?

[thekitkatshuffler]

If the league is bread and butter then the CL is a scone with clotted cream and jam. 

Superficially satisfying but lacking in substance?  I agree. 

[Iska]

‘Superficially’?!  Tough crowd.

[LFC when it suits]

Champions League is the pinnacle of football. It's the greatest moment in any player or managers career at club level. League is a level below.

[Alan_X]

Superficially satisfying but lacking in substance?  I agree. 

"Grown men were crying and it was the greatest feeling any human being could have to see what we had done," Shankly remembered. "There have been many proud moments. Wonderful, fantastic moments. But that was the greatest day."

Shanks on winning the league in 1964 or winning the FA Cup in 1965?

[CHOPPER]

Champions League is the pinnacle of football. It's the greatest moment in any player or managers career at club level. League is a level below.

To someone else, the world club championship, by name alone would seem the greater.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

"Grown men were crying and it was the greatest feeling any human being could have to see what we had done," Shankly remembered. "There have been many proud moments. Wonderful, fantastic moments. But that was the greatest day."

Shanks on winning the league in 1964 or winning the FA Cup in 1965?

Pretty sure he said that about our 1st FA Cup win.

[LFC when it suits]

He is wrong.  Winning the league is the bread and butter.  Winning the Champions League is great but it's a knock out competition where anything can happen.  The league is the true measure of a team and the true measure of success.

But, to be fair, I'm only a longtime Liverpool fan.

League is not a true measure of success. Man City and PSG are not close to being the best team in Europe not matter how many times they win their domestic leagues. Likewise, Real Madrid will go down as one of the greatest teams of all time while Barca, despite all their domestic success, will be remembered as the teams that threw away a 3 goal lead two years in a row.

[El Lobo]

League is not a true measure of success. Man City and PSG are not close to being the best team in Europe not matter how many times they win their domestic leagues. Likewise, Real Madrid will go down as one of the greatest teams of all time while Barca, despite all their domestic success, will be remembered as the teams that threw away a 3 goal lead two years in a row.

Uh..eh..wha...just....wait, what?

[s_andrews89]

The Origi and Ox comments are not innocuous and are certainly made with intention.

Absolutely agree. Henry has always come across, to me, as someone who chooses his words carefully and specifically. Much like Klopp. For him to have specifically named those players (including Lallana) means something. What that something is, we shall see.

I'm confident they and Klopp will bring us the league. It might not be this season coming, but it will happen. 100%.

[LFC when it suits]

Uh..eh..wha...just....wait, what?

Are you saying that Zidane's Real Madrid won't go down as one of the greatest teams of all time? Are you saying that Valverdes team won't be remembered as a bunch of bottlers that threw away a 3 goal lead back to back in the CL two years in a row?

[Alan_X]

Pretty sure he said that about our 1st FA Cup win.

Correct.

[Alan_X]

Are you saying that Zidane's Real Madrid won't go down as one of the greatest teams of all time? Are you saying that Valverdes team won't be remembered as a bunch of bottlers that threw away a 3 goal lead back to back in the CL two years in a row?

Zidane's Real Madrid were a bunch of aging shithouses in Kiev. They certainly weren't one of the greatest teams of all time.

[LFC when it suits]

Zidane's Real Madrid were a bunch of aging shithouses in Kiev. They certainly weren't one of the greatest teams of all time.

They can be one of the greatest teams of all time and still be a bunch of shithouses.

[El Lobo]

Are you saying that Zidane's Real Madrid won't go down as one of the greatest teams of all time? Are you saying that Valverdes team won't be remembered as a bunch of bottlers that threw away a 3 goal lead back to back in the CL two years in a row?

I wasn’t but yeah I’ll go with both of those 

I wouldn’t particularly label them bottlers for what happened this season either, think that takes a lot away from ourselves which is quite sad.

[LFC when it suits]

I wasn’t but yeah I’ll go with both of those 

I wouldn’t particularly label them bottlers for what happened this season either, think that takes a lot away from ourselves which is quite sad.

Yeah it's a bit harsh for the tie against us but that's the narrative out there despite their domestic success. We are a much better team than them and we slapped them all around the pitch over two legs.

[bornandbRED]

That we're not going to spend this summer and that John Henry expects us to utilise what we have.

Is what I infer from bornandbRED's comment.

The opposite actually. I don’t think someone of his acumen would come out and make what sounds like a wet blanket type comment as plainly as this. He’ll realise every time he speaks to the media what he says will be echoed and analysed x100, and so I wouldn’t take this at face value to mean that we’re not going to be active in the market, as some are.

Seems to me like he is reiterating the ‘under promise, over perform’ message that FSG like to transmit.

[farawayred]

John Henry knows that winning the league is bigger. that's why we didn't see him like this with the Big Ears:



Where was the cigar, Boss?

[deFacto please, you bastards]

However, the Reds owner is confident the European Champions will push on for domestic glory in the season that lies ahead.
“To me winning in Europe is bigger than winning in England but I think it’s true the fans want it,” Henry said,

“I know we’re going to be focused on winning the Premier League next year.”

It's not wrong that he believes the European Cup is bigger - it's his opinion. And he's not wrong that the fans want the league.

Read the story not the headline.

Edit - and Shankly's 'bread and butter' comment surely means what Henry said. Bread and butter is the boring stuff you do year in, year out. Winning the cups is the important stuff. Winning the FA Cup was massive for Shanks and he'd have given his back teeth to win the European Cup. The league is only special to us now because it's been thirty years since we last won it.

Well said.

[him_15]

Very glad that we have a great owner. I feel for Newcastle.

[Carra-ton]

I was in the FSG out camp, and though I still have some concerns over their ownership long-term and their ability to inject the squad with money from their own pockets when necessary; I think they have shown that they are going to be cutting edge in terms of hiring the best people for most jobs.
Their greatest achievement has been getting Klopp and for that they get full marks.

[arab88]

I totally agree with John.

Trying to argue the opposite is totally OUTSIDE OF THIS WORLD. Ask any supporter of any team in the world, if he would prefer to win the domestic league or the champions league and you'll get your answer (bar Liverpool fans).

The champions league is the ELITE trophy which has the best teams in Europe playing against each other.

It is the trophy that brings far more money and far more glory.

Ask Juve fans who won over 30 domestic league titles and only 2 champions league how many domestic trophies they would trade for a single champions league and you'll have your answer.

Ask PSG fans the same question...City fans...Barca Fans, Bayern Fans, Arsenal Fans, Chelsea Fans....ASK ANYBODY YOU WANT.

Ask the players themselves.

We Liverpool have become obsessed (for obvious reasons) with winning the premierleague, but the Champions League is and will always remain the greatest achievement for any club in Europe. Period.

[demain]

Nah, disagree with him.

They let anyone into the Champions League these days, in terms of prestige it's somewhere between winning the League Cup and the FA Cup.

The only European trophy ever worth winning was the Cup Winners' Cup.

[CraigDS]

Nah, disagree with him.

They let anyone into the Champions League these days, in terms of prestige it's somewhere between winning the League Cup and the FA Cup.

The only European trophy ever worth winning was the Cup Winners' Cup.

You don’t actually believe that, right?

[arab88]

They let anyone into the Champions League these days, in terms of prestige it's somewhere between winning the League Cup and the FA Cup.

why don't say that winning the League Cup is better than winning the Champions League?

I think I have heard them all really...I sincerely hope you were jocking mate 

[sms1986]

Nah, disagree with him.

They let anyone into the Champions League these days, in terms of prestige it's somewhere between winning the League Cup and the FA Cup.

The only European trophy ever worth winning was the Cup Winners' Cup.

Even better if you win the League Cup in the same season, it's sort of a special double that one.

[demain]

Missed this gem, just before the last one I posted:

Quote from: maccavennie, post: 7099134, member: 20543

Well from a business point of view you would be correct but I was talking from a togger point of view. Its about as important a trophy as the Leyland DAF trophy and holds nowhere near the prestige it should.


That's not to say I wouldn't say no to the European Coca Cola Cup mate, I just think it's a bit of a joke to be honest

I mean, the guy knows that he's getting exposure here and is playing up to the gallery like any good medieval fool, but I do want to see just how an obscure a cup competion he can find to equate the EC with.

I've come to realise there was only one trophy that was worth winning, it mattered because you could only win it by going through two competitions without losing (yeah, I know defeated finalists could qualify).

The cup winners cup, the ultimate.

Everton had to defeat the almighty Bayern Munich to win it, oh, and yeah this lengthy list of challenges

Stoke, Gillingham (3 attempts), Shrewsbury, Notts Co, Southampton, Watford, University College Dublin, Inter Bratislava, Fortuna Sittard, Rapid Vienna

I find the above two posts as suitably compelling arguments in favour of the irrelevance of the European Cup.

[Dench57]

Surely 'Cup Winners Cup' was the giveaway lads

[Alan_X]

John Henry knows that winning the league is bigger. that's why we didn't see him like this with the Big Ears:



Where was the cigar, Boss?

I assume you're joking but I don't think you'd see him like that with the Premier League Trophy either. He's a baseball fan first and foremost.

And besides, the World Series is a best of seven knockout series between the winners of the National League and American League.

[penga]

FSG lucked out by signing Klopp. Still haven't spent much money in transfers and looks like it's gonna be a skint transfer window when we should be pushing on for world domination. Shoulda moved to a new stadium but didn't and then didn't even upgrade Anfield enough...New training ground meh...We are fucked when Klopp leaves.

FSG out.

[FlashingBlade]

I thought this would generate a League v European Cup debate. Simple fact is there isn't one.Liverpools Holy Grail is winning the league it defines us and winning the European Cup is also our Holy Grail it defines us.

There is no comparison or competition between the two ..they are both intertwined in our DNA.

It is also a generation thing...simple fact is those of you under 40 will not know what it will feels like to win the league and its understandable the European Cup looms large in its place..for now...

John Henry is right the European Cup win reverberates more around the world than a domestic title. I saw a City fan ( somewhat hurt by the media reception Liverpool got for winning the CL) say that football fans arund the world would remember City's league win more than our CL.He was wrong. A simple test of this is ask any football fan ( or yourself) around the world how many EC/CL have Real Madrid won...90% plus get it first time...then ask how many Domestic league titles have they won and when was the last time....


We want the league more than anyhthing...and the European Cup...let's reopen this thread next year and do a comparison on how it feels.

[Alan_X]

FSG lucked out by signing Klopp. Still haven't spent much money in transfers and looks like it's gonna be a skint transfer window when we should be pushing on for world domination. Shoulda moved to a new stadium but didn't and then didn't even upgrade Anfield enough...New training ground meh...We are fucked when Klopp leaves.

FSG out.

I hope you're on a wind up.

'Lucked out?...' Of course they did. The management and analytical team that was being assembled before Klopp was brought in was 'lucky' too I suppose. Klopp's appointment was down to the ownership and management and our success is not just because of one man.

It's not going to be a 'skint' transfer window. You say we 'lucked out' with Klopp and then shit all over his preferred way of working. We buy the players we need for the money it takes to get them. Klopp values team coherence and an intense understanding if the way the team works. Just spending money is not his thing. If they think we ned an £80 million player this window they'll buy him. Still, I can see how our recent transfer dealings are a concern and it's obvious that the owners don't want to push on... n“To me winning in Europe is bigger than winning in England but I think it’s true the fans want it,” Henry said,

“I know we’re going to be focused on winning the Premier League next year.”

Why should we have moved to a new stadium? I am still amazed that people still say this when manager after manager and player after player, pundits and opposing fans talk in awe about the power of that ground. But hey, let's fuck just it off and spend a billion pounds on a cheese room.

They upgraded Anfield enough to start with so that we increased income massively without pissing away hundreds of millions on seats that already exist. The next priority was the training ground. Like specialist coaches (the much-derided throw-in coach for example) the training ground should give us those extra incremental advantages that will help us win more titles. Again, you shit all over the kind of thing that means a lot to the manager.

The Anfield Road extension will follow I have no doubt.

[aw1991]

Nah, disagree with him.

They let anyone into the Champions League these days, in terms of prestige it's somewhere between winning the League Cup and the FA Cup.

The only European trophy ever worth winning was the Cup Winners' Cup.

I really want to win the PL, just to get this of our backs. The CL is the big one though, in my opinion. Was so happy when we won it.

[Red Beret]

You don’t actually believe that, right?

You have been so whooshed.

[Anthony]

And besides, the World Series is a best of seven knockout series between the winners of the National League and American League.

So a bit like the Community Shield, then...

I am yearning to win the League as much as anybody (I even have my celebratory YouTube video identified) but there's a reason why we remember 1981 (won the European Cup, 5th in the League) and not 1979 (won the League, out in the First Round of the European Cup). I'm as pleased with this season (no, actually more) than if we had won the League and gone out to Barcelona.

Besides, as JWH put it before the CL Final, this year we had unfinished business and I expect next season to be the same - as does he apparently...

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/ffL2v6B1rME" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/ffL2v6B1rME</a>

[CraigDS]

You have been so whooshed.

Well I figured he was taking the piss but you never know sometimes on here 

[Red Beret]

Well I figured he was taking the piss but you never know sometimes on here 

Only if you're not a regular in the Everton thread.

But yes, we had unfinished business in the CL, and now we have some in the league.  Double next year please!

[Barneylfc∗]

You don’t actually believe that, right?

 

[Eeyore]

FSG lucked out by signing Klopp. Still haven't spent much money in transfers and looks like it's gonna be a skint transfer window when we should be pushing on for world domination. Shoulda moved to a new stadium but didn't and then didn't even upgrade Anfield enough...New training ground meh...We are fucked when Klopp leaves.

FSG out.

Why has my username been changed to Penga ?