Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[ArthurDent]

Dislike it intensely.

I watch a lot of Serie A and it has now come to the point where players and fans wait a few moments to celebrate after a goal is scored just in case VAR has found a reason to overturn it. It has gone a long way to spoiling the game as a spectacle. Plus it's not actually technology based like goal-line is - it's down to the interpretations of a person, and as such is still open to the whims, viewpoints and biased opinions of that person.

And how far back in time do you go ? There was a goal ruled out in Germany because the VAR found an infringement about 30 seconds previously in the other half of the pitch.

In short, it sucks.

[Broad Spectrum]

Think the one that bothered me was the Fabregas non-peno. Took about 40 seconds for play to stop for a corner, surely Video ref already had seen couple replays and decided its grand, should not have needed to stop and wait for him.

Should only geet 10-15 seconds to review, if can't overturn a clear wrong decision, then decision stands as called. If need super-slo-mo and 12 angles then its not CLEAR.

Could always just stop the clock?

Introduce that and can also just stop it for too much timewasting too, be sound.

Thought for years football should introduce that for injuries, subs etc. Obviously when the ball goes out of play for corners, throw ins etc. the clock should continue, but it would be a much fairer system than the current one. Saying that there’s not a better feeling than scoring a late winner in injury time!

[iamnant]

How could it overturn sterling’s? Linesman flagged, play stopped before anything happened. Absolute best case scenario for us would be we got possession back as a drop ball

As soon as I wrote that I thought someone would pick up on it! It was just an obvious ref mistake which came to mind - not the best example.

[classycarra]

As soon as I wrote that I thought someone would pick up on it! It was just an obvious ref mistake which came to mind - not the best example.

On the contrary, you picked a great example. One of the worst examples of linekeeping I can remember in recent times - and what would VAR have done to counter it? Nothing.

It could have been handy for Watford's third goal at the start of this season, for the foul on Mignolet and offside, but I understand even in it's current loose/wide-reaching form even that wouldn't have been looked at.

[iamnant]

On the contrary, you picked a great example. One of the worst examples of linekeeping I can remember in recent times - and what would VAR have done to counter it? Nothing.

It could have been handy for Watford's third goal at the start of this season, for the foul on Mignolet and offside, but I understand even in it's current loose/wide-reaching form even that wouldn't have been looked at.

I suppose what I meant was that it wasn't a great example of how VAR could be of use.

There are plenty of obvious incorrect decisions that we could have benefited from being overturned from VAR in the past few seasons - for that reason, I support VAR. But my main problem with it is as ArthurDent posted above, about it's hindrance of game flow in Italy.

If VAR in it's current form impedes on game flow or on the mentality of the players during the match, then they need to go back to the drawing board...

[PhaseOfPlay]

I had the pleasure of going to see a NY Jets game a number of years ago. Freezing cold temperatures.

The professionalism of the whole get-up was astounding. Bloke beside me telling me how they change the seating and the lighting from green to blue depending on whether the Jets or the Giants play. Security and ticket admission seamless and smooth as you like. No lines at the refreshments that were anything more than 5 deep. Quick service. Pricey, but I've seen worse.

I'm not an NFL fan, either. I just had a chance to see a game, and wanted to experience another sport's highest level.

During the game, there were several times when the play would stop, and the players would just stroll around talking to each other.

I asked the people around me was someone injured (we were way up in "the bleachers").

Bloke beside me - "they're either reviewing video, or they've cut to commercials for the TV"

I have no desire for football to get to that stage where they are using replay moments to cut to ads on the telly.

Because if there's a chance of that happening, the TV bods at the next deal will insist on it, in order to sell more ads to pay for their huge expenditure.

If VAR breaks the flow of the game, the game will start to change well away from its original intention as a free-flowing player's game, I think.

[Miltonred]

There is no stopping this thing now, but I am adamantly against it.

Its the most obvious slippery slope ever. Starts with goals and penalties winds up being throw ins and offsides and every damn thing. Referees on the field will abdicate responsibility to make a decision in case the video proves them wrong and before you know it we will only be able to watch an actual football game inside of 2 hours if we go and watch our kids school team or a pub side.

Also, what the heck will we argue about if we can't moan about biased refereeing and shit calls?

Its a bad idea and its too late to stop it.

[classycarra]

Just wait until a big goal is disallowed for a foul throw in the run up to it!

[Anfield89]

Don’t get why people are so quick to judge it. It’s in test mode. There will be problems. Hasn’t been used anywhere near enough to be for or against.

[b_joseph]

I just think it needs to be faster. The tackle in the Arsenal game was obvious with one replay, yet it took 90 seconds for the game to restart.
I think there is a fine line between wanting to get everything right and remembering that its only the entertainment industry. But when so many leagues and clubs are bringing in crazy money from bookies, I guess getting it right becomes more and more important.

[4pool]

VAR won't solve the problem. It is a bandaid for those who constantly whinge about Referees missing something or getting a call wrong.

What will happen should VAR become the lay of the land is that the outrage will be changed from the Ref to VAR isn't perfect. Calls will be blown. Wrongs won't be righted.

And that's really all it is. With 24/7 whigning going on. With virtually every play or incident commented on. When ex-pro's don't know the rules and make their comments.

But VAR will be sold that it will get ( some) calls corrected. That's all you need to know.And the media muppets will fall step in line. Along with most supporters mind.

The driving force will be the tv companies. Not the various FA's. Not the managers. It's the tv companies looking at ways to increase their revenues through adverts. Anyone who thinks that adverts won't happen will hold their hand up in the next 5 years or so and say they were wrong.

Those inside the stadium will just have to put up with the slow downs of the match to get the calls right. Arsenal fans chanting VAR is just the first step. ( bunch of muppets).

[Alan_X]

Don’t get why people are so quick to judge it. It’s in test mode. There will be problems. Hasn’t been used anywhere near enough to be for or against.

I can judge against it because the problems are so blatant. The game doesn't need it and as it's currently implemented will fuck up the game as a spectacle. The people it 'benefits' are TV companies and pundits.

Anyone who goes the match knows the immediate outbreak of sheer pleasure when a goal is scored. With VAR we'll have to wait to see whether the VAR decides there's anything to go back to and maybe the ref will have to spend a bit of time on the touch line looking at a fucking screen before confirming the goal.

Football is a fluid game and the thing that's great about it is its immediacy. You'll be watching any passage of play in the knowledge that what your watching in the moment can be pulled back by VAR.

And one club it will fuck absolutely is Liverpool under Klopp. 'Oh, it will only call back thirty seconds of play...' in thirty seconds we'll have gone from a scramble in our box to a breakaway goal at the other end.

If it was immediate then maybe it would be workable. As it stands I don't want it anywhere near the football I watch.

[The North Bank]

Voted for waste of time, but it's actually worse than that, it can ruin games.

[Alan_X]

Two interesting articles:

Officials aim for VAR to bring about 2% fewer errors by referees

Mike Riley has said that while Video Assistant Referees are not intended to make refereeing decisions 100% accurate, the game’s newest technological innovation will be viewed positively if it leads to a 2% reduction in errors by officials.

More here:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jan/07/video-assistant-referees-errors-mike-riley

VAR fails the football test in more ways than we could have imagined

Barney Ronay

The other striking thing about VAR only became clear to me on Wednesday night at Stamford Bridge as it was used for only the third time inside an English football stadium. The fact is, for all the expertise, the manpower, the money spent, VAR just doesn’t work in football. It diminishes the experience of watching in the stadium. It skews the game decisively one way. It is one of those ideas, like bendy buses, or communism, that would simply be better off abandoned.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2018/jan/13/var-football-referees-emotional-game

[Pistolero]

Terrible fuckin idea ....the fact that Denny Mills endorses it is proof of its complete arsewipery...

[WisconsinRed]

It's shite and will get worse. Once it's in it'll go from being for major decisions to being for everything, anyone thinking otherwise is being naive.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

It's shite and will get worse. Once it's in it'll go from being for major decisions to being for everything, anyone thinking otherwise is being naive.

Agree.

Who wants the game to be slowed down? The frenetic nature of it is part of the appeal. Fuck turning it into american sports where two thirds of it is advertisements.

[BOBSCOUSE]

Sort the laws of the game out so that officials aren't misinterpreting, sort the officials lack of consistency and competency (I know, I know!), keep goal line technology and fuck off VAR so that football continues as the game it always was.

One additional idea I'd had due to officials not being able to keep up with the game - use four linesmen.  Would improve penalty area decisions, only problem is you'll get one lino flag up for offside and his counterpart on the other side of the pitch won't - refer to consistency and competency above.

Perhaps we should just leave it all as it is and just try to do more to sort the officials lack of consistency and competency!

[Alan_X]

Sort the laws of the game out so that officials aren't misinterpreting, sort the officials lack of consistency and competency (I know, I know!), keep goal line technology and fuck off VAR so that football continues as the game it always was.

One additional idea I'd had due to officials not being able to keep up with the game - use four linesmen.  Would improve penalty area decisions, only problem is you'll get one lino flag up for offside and his counterpart on the other side of the pitch won't - refer to consistency and competency above.

The Laws of the Game are fine and as barney Ronay points out in his article this is for a tiny number of decisions, most of which the referees get correct. 

Perhaps we should just leave it all as it is and just try to do more to sort the officials lack of consistency and competency!

Perhaps we should accept that like most areas of life, perfection is an aspiration but rarely achieved.

[Alan_X]

For anyone who thinks VAR is a good idea watch yesterday’s game back. Imagine that performance and that atmosphere being flattened by video reviews. No doubt Firmino’s goal would have been called back for review.

[oldfordie]

For anyone who thinks VAR is a good idea watch yesterday’s game back. Imagine that performance and that atmosphere being flattened by video reviews. No doubt Firmino’s goal would have been called back for review.

If you keep using VAR for fouls then yes the game will stop and start and still come up with the wrong decision. fouls can be a matter of opinion so I dont think it's a good idea to have replays on fouls. offsides though are rarely opinion and reviews take a couple of secs, this takes place after the goal is scored so play has already stopped, worked very well in the Leicester game tonight.

[Doc Red]

I like the idea of having external support for referees, especially in an era where they are scrutinised and analysed at such a magnified level.
However, I complete agree with POP's post, my concern is the VAR simply becoming another avenue for financial gain.
It may start off as a tool for assisting, but a few seasons from now, I can foresee games having 4-5 VAR stoppages per game that will last about 2 minutes and be filled by commercial time whilst we wait for the conclusion of the game. And once that reaps in the cash, we'll probably start hearing ideas about tactical timeouts per half to allow managers to reorganise their team, yet another avenue for commercial spots.

The NBA has gone down this road, and now the game can last 30 minutes longer than a decade ago, simply due to stoppages as the refs check the replay, or "commercial" timeouts that the NBA added to the game.

I'd rather they focused more on getting better quality referees, starting from the lower levels,, better training, some European standard or model where they can train alongside other refs. Maybe even allowing the league to bring in refs from other countries. Possibly allowing them to explain their reasoning so they can at least present their views, rather than get lambasted without having a chance to defend themselves.

But to be honest, the way the English tabloids, and the likes of SKY, seemingly over exaggerate and over analyse everything in a game, very little will change.

[oldfordie]

I like the idea of having external support for referees, especially in an era where they are scrutinised and analysed at such a magnified level.
However, I complete agree with POP's post, my concern is the VAR simply becoming another avenue for financial gain.
It may start off as a tool for assisting, but a few seasons from now, I can foresee games having 4-5 VAR stoppages per game that will last about 2 minutes and be filled by commercial time whilst we wait for the conclusion of the game. And once that reaps in the cash, we'll probably start hearing ideas about tactical timeouts per half to allow managers to reorganise their team, yet another avenue for commercial spots.

The NBA has gone down this road, and now the game can last 30 minutes longer than a decade ago, simply due to stoppages as the refs check the replay, or "commercial" timeouts that the NBA added to the game.

I'd rather they focused more on getting better quality referees, starting from the lower levels,, better training, some European standard or model where they can train alongside other refs. Maybe even allowing the league to bring in refs from other countries. Possibly allowing them to explain their reasoning so they can at least present their views, rather than get lambasted without having a chance to defend themselves.

But to be honest, the way the English tabloids, and the likes of SKY, seemingly over exaggerate and over analyse everything in a game, very little will change.

Football is different from USA sports, we cant have time outs or coaches challenges as it just wouldn't work as the game doesn't stop so why make the argument that this may happen to oppose VAR.  Nobody wants a situation were managers call time out whenever their team is under the cosh, it won't happen. it has nothing to do with the reasons we want to introduce VAR.
We may not get the rules on VAR perfect at first but we can change them when we have a problem.
It seems people want a perfect system set up first before we introduce it, lets judge it against the system we have now, wrong decisions after another for decades with people arguing we have to get better referees to solve the problem. the better refs argument is just not facing realty, I know I have to rewind and play back in slow motion to see if it's the right decision myself on a lot of decisions so I cant blame the refs when they get it wrong in real time.

[Kashinoda]

The hyperbole in this thread is astonishing.

Worked well tonight - goal wrongly called offside, VAR corrected the decision, game resumed.

Not sure what it took away from the experience.

[Frizzo]

For anyone who thinks VAR is a good idea watch yesterday’s game back. Imagine that performance and that atmosphere being flattened by video reviews. No doubt Firmino’s goal would have been called back for review.

I'd the system is being used properly, they'd take one look at it and decide that there's no way it was a 'clear and obvious error' and confirm the goal.

Not that you'd notice because you probably wouldn't have finished celebrating.

[Kopout]

Bet all of our goals will be reviewed and celebrations will get cut short.

[andyrol]

one of the problems is if say, like last nights game, a goal is flagged offside then reviewed and given as a goal, what happens if the keeper stops when he sees the flag? or when players used to get carded for 'carrying on' when there is a flag up, does the ref still blow the whistle for the infringement or just stop play?

[Barneylfc∗]

one of the problems is if say, like last nights game, a goal is flagged offside then reviewed and given as a goal, what happens if the keeper stops when he sees the flag? or when players used to get carded for 'carrying on' when there is a flag up, does the ref still blow the whistle for the infringement or just stop play?

I don't recall anyone ever getting booked for 'carrying on' after a flag goes up. They get booked for carrying on after the whistle.
And if a keeper stops for a flag going up but there wasn't a whistle then that's his fault

[JerseyKloppite]

one of the problems is if say, like last nights game, a goal is flagged offside then reviewed and given as a goal, what happens if the keeper stops when he sees the flag? or when players used to get carded for 'carrying on' when there is a flag up, does the ref still blow the whistle for the infringement or just stop play?

You never got booked for carrying on when a flag was up, you got booked for carrying on after the whistle was blown. The flag is an indicator to the referee that in the view of the assistant, a player is offside. A referee can choose to ignore it if he disagrees, it's not a decision in itself.

As regards players reacting to flags, this has the potential to cause frustration but ultimately they shouldn't, as above they should play to the ref's whistle. If you stop just because a flag goes up and the other team scores, with respect it's your fault whether or not VAR is used or otherwise.

As re the system it's clearly a difficult one and I don't really know what I think. I don't buy that people will stop celebrating goals in case they get overturned - people celebrate even though they know goals might be ruled out for offside (and sometimes are) and rugby fans celebrate tries passionately even though refs often check for incidents there after the event. In the vast majority of the time goals will stand.

The concern is the creep of VAR beyond it's remit. It should only be used for clear and unambiguous incidents:
- offsides when a goal is scored (eg. Leicester's second goal last night, the system worked perfectly),
- whether a ball has gone out of play when a goal is scored (eg. the review of a disallowed Leicester goal last night, which seemed to work perfectly),
- cases of mistaken identity (the embarrassing Oxlade-Chamberlain/Gibbs incident could have easily been avoided - these are rare anyway)
- whether a player has dived to win a penalty, or
- whether a player has commit a handball offence either scoring/preventing a goal (eg. Watford's second at the weekend).

I wouldn't even use it for whether or not was a foul before a goal as they're usually too subjective. Even handballs can be difficult but, to use the example of Watford's second goal at the weekend, there are some examples which are clear and unambiguous. If they aren't (eg. difficult debate about whether it's "ball to hand" if the hand is in a neutral position etc) VAR shouldn't get involved and it should stay with referee's call. Again with diving - if a player goes down and there's no contact whatsoever, it's obviously a dive, and VAR should step in. If it's one of the more nuanced incidents where a player appears to invite contact, but there is contact which brings a player down, VAR should stay out.

The issue is not with the use of VAR in principle, it's the application. You don't want Wenger throwing a flag to have the ref stop play for 2 minutes while an incident is reviewed.

[Red_Mist]

Not sure. Instinct is no, it’s a bad idea, but let’s see how it pans out. If it proves to be not too disruptive and rights a few wrongs then ok. If it turns decisions into even more of an endless debate than they are now, it’ll do my head in.

[TravisBickle]

The genie needs putting back in the bottle with this one. It's a terrible idea and still leaves the game open to the interpretation of people making subjective judgements. It'll slow things down massively and purely from a biased point of view, that's terrible for the way Libpool play footy.

[rob1966]

I don't recall anyone ever getting booked for 'carrying on' after a flag goes up. They get booked for carrying on after the whistle.
And if a keeper stops for a flag going up but there wasn't a whistle then that's his fault

Taught from an early age - play to the whistle

[Barneylfc∗]

Taught from an early age - play to the whistle

Di Canio against Man United in the cup is the perfect example. Not sure if the defenders stopped, but Barthez stood with his hand up like a bellend waiting for a whistle that didn't come and ultimately paid the price. Tough shit.

[Redsnappa]

The genie needs putting back in the bottle with this one. It's a terrible idea and still leaves the game open to the interpretation of people making subjective judgements. It'll slow things down massively and purely from a biased point of view, that's terrible for the way Libpool play footy.

Agree 100%. It's a godsend for the Shitcoats of the game, who want to slow the game down, break up play, time-waste and dog games out.

Unless they can get it down to 15/20 seconds, it's going to destroy fast-flowing football and thus our game.

[S]

Is VAR only used for goals? I take it a contentious through ball just inside the half won't be challenged?

[S]

Agree 100%. It's a godsend for the Shitcoats of the game, who want to slow the game down, break up play, time-waste and dog games out.

Unless they can get it down to 15/20 seconds, it's going to destroy fast-flowing football and thus our game.

On the contrary, didn't United have a stupendous amount of offside goals allowed last season?

[classycarra]

Di Canio against Man United in the cup is the perfect example. Not sure if the defenders stopped, but Barthez stood with his hand up like a bellend waiting for a whistle that didn't come and ultimately paid the price. Tough shit.

No he didn't. He pretended he was waiting for a whistle and that he wasn't playing, as a tactic to try and stop it

[Barneylfc∗]

Is VAR only used for goals? I take it a contentious through ball just inside the half won't be challenged?

From what I understand, if the ref lets play go on, he will be told by the VAR if it is the wrong call.
I'm not sure though what happens if the ref goes with the linesman and whistles for offside, but the VAR tells him it was on.

[Barneylfc∗]

No he didn't. He pretended he was waiting for a whistle and that he wasn't playing, as a tactic to try and stop it

That's even better then. The knob.

[classycarra]

From what I understand, if the ref lets play go on, he will be told by the VAR if it is the wrong call.
I'm not sure though what happens if the ref goes with the linesman and whistles for offside, but the VAR tells him it was on.

Linesmen's flags will soon be an irrelevance. Until a high profile player gets a hamstring injury from sprinting and misses a big (WC or CL) match, because they played on despite a flag for offside. Then it'll be changed.