Topic: "Green and Gold, it's O5e from Molde!" - Cornering like a reliant robin..

[idontknow]

So VAR adds a judgement call to a judgement call?
Does anybody really need to discuss the outcome of that?

Particularly when the people making the judgement calls are referees, and the prime reason VARs been brought in is that referees are not very good at giving judgement calls, generally because they're not very good at being referees.

Obviously, when I said 'prime reason' I was talking from a put-to-the-fan point of view, rather than from the professional referees PGM whatever junk it's called, namely to make more money for its roster of shite.

The sooner the refs are paid more than the players the better. It's dead already, just turning slowly on the skewer.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Refs paid more than players??

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

As a general query, has the talk off the pitch mangled offside to a laughable state when you've got his knee is offside, offside is offside?

Offside was brought in to stop goal hanging. It's a fine addition if you leave it there. It becomes a drag if you start looking for body parts to the inch ahead of a virtual line imo. If the player's off by a yard, fine. Call it. If he's starting fully ahead of the last defender, fine, call it. If  it's so marginal you have to look for body parts, you've got to play on. This is not precision engineering a machine, laws over a dynamic, game played by people has to get the balance right between ruling out clear attempts to cheat versus acceptable margin.

[harleydanger]

So VAR adds a judgement call to a judgement call?
Does anybody really need to discuss the outcome of that?

it's ridiculous. VAR is a cancer and needs to be radiated and removed

[Skeeve]

It's staggering how shit football is at this stuff. A challenge element is exactly the way to go to bring this stuff in but as usual the referees can't have that because it would involve them in any way admitting failure to anyone outside of their circle. It's shambolic how the game is officiated in this country.

A challenge system would end up being abused by snidey managers such as Mourinho to disrupt the opposition if he still had a challenge left late in either half, the sensible way to do it would be to continuously review everything and yell in the ref's earpiece when he has fucked one up, the tv coverage can get the definitive views in seconds so there just needs to be more competence with the VAR replays as there's no reason they should take so long or in this game so incompetent.

[Skeeve]

Remember benefit of the doubt to the attacker, and "clear daylight" or some bollocks like that?

The law was never actually written with that sort of wording though and certainly isn't now, but you still get the pundits parroting that line when moaning about a decision.

[Kashinoda]

All I've taken from Mata's VAR incident is Huddersfield's 18 yard box is wonky as fuck.

[Rush 82]

All I've taken from Mata's VAR incident is Huddersfield's 18 yard box is wonky as fuck.

Yeah, they need a new line drawing thingamajig

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Refs paid more than players??

 

I do actually think the referees should get paid based on performance. An independent panel scores then between 1 and 10 after every match and they are given a bonus based on that. Will soon sort them out.

[rob1966]

As a general query, has the talk off the pitch mangled offside to a laughable state when you've got his knee is offside, offside is offside?

Offside was brought in to stop goal hanging. It's a fine addition if you leave it there. It becomes a drag if you start looking for body parts to the inch ahead of a virtual line imo. If the player's off by a yard, fine. Call it. If he's starting fully ahead of the last defender, fine, call it. If  it's so marginal you have to look for body parts, you've got to play on. This is not precision engineering a machine, laws over a dynamic, game played by people has to get the balance right between ruling out clear attempts to cheat versus acceptable margin.

Seeing as we had a goal ruled offside at Spurs last season for Lallanas big toe being offside, I've no sympathy for the Mancs.

You are right though, there should be clear air between the players, all this toe/knee/leg offside is bollocks.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Like many who think they know about VAR..you're wrong.

Read---exactly--- what the FA has ruled will constitute what VAR will be used for:



The VAR trials, which will include the League Cup semi-finals in January 2018, are being led by the Professional Game Match Officials Limited (PGMOL), the body responsible for training and developing English football’s elite match officials and follow an extensive education programme and ‘live’ experiment phase.

VARs are being trialled for clear and obvious errors, or serious missed incidents, relating to specific incidents in three ‘game changing’ situations – goals, penalty/no penalty decisions and straight red cards, plus mistaken identity for red or yellow cards.

The VAR automatically checks every such incident and if a clear and obvious error has occurred the referee is informed; the referee can then confirm or change the original decision based on the information from the VAR, or the referee looks at a replay on the side of the pitch. The original decision is only changed if it was clearly and obviously wrong. 

http://www.thefa.com/news/2017/dec/07/video-assistant-referees-trialled-emirates-fa-cup-third-round-brighton-crystal-palace-071217

There is nothing in there about determining offsides is there?? Whether 2mm or 2 cm.

for clear and obvious errors, or serious missed incidents that is all VAR is supposed to be used for.

So yes, the Mata goal comes under the VAR remit to review. But the VAR ref Swarbrick over stepped the remit of-- for clear and obvious errors, or serious missed incidents.

The linesman did NOT make an "obvious error" or miss the incident. The goal should have stood. Simples.

He did. A goal was wrongly awarded because the player was offisde.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I do actually think the referees should get paid based on performance. An independent panel scores then between 1 and 10 after every match and they are given a bonus based on that. Will soon sort them out.

If they got paid on performance, they'd all be on the streets begging for cheese butties

[Pie Eyed]

That's absolute bollocks mate, if you're going to talk about 2 inches then I want a device in the ball that can display exactly when its touched. Because you can play that dubious video any way you want to determine exactly when its released from Young's foot. And there's no obvious error . The Mancs were robbed of a good goal and its fucking scandalous that we're even debating it.

I didn't say that I agree with the current implementation (either of VAR or the offside rule), but under the current rules for both, an "error" (not being flagged offside when he was, under the current interpretation) was overturned and corrected.

It just goes to show how far this technology - and its users - need to improve, before it is fully fit for purpose.

It took Rugby Leagu a year or 2 to iron out (almost) all of the kinks, and I'm sure that the football uses of the technology will get better/faster/clearer as time goes on.

The first thing that NEEDS to happen is a video replay screen, so that the fans can see exactly what is being looked at in real time.

Also, it is highly likely that certain rules - such as offside - receive minor tweaks both to improve them and to make them clearer for use with this technology.

[Doc Red]

Maybe they should position the main referee behind the screens with all camera views available and with the final say on decisions.  The referee on the pitch can be the secondary ref that decides on general issues, and on key issues such as penalties, cards, and reviewing offsides leading to goals, the main ref behind the monitors decides.

Would also make decisions more transparent as the main ref can explain his decisions if only because they have access to all the angles, rather than hiding behind the 'I couldn't see from my position' defence.

[robgomm]

A challenge system would end up being abused by snidey managers such as Mourinho to disrupt the opposition if he still had a challenge left late in either half, the sensible way to do it would be to continuously review everything and yell in the ref's earpiece when he has fucked one up, the tv coverage can get the definitive views in seconds so there just needs to be more competence with the VAR replays as there's no reason they should take so long or in this game so incompetent.

There's ways around that, though, that would limit the usage of challenges to maybe one per half and might even limit them to normal time, for example, not injury time. And they might be used to challenge goals, red cards and penalties as VAR works presently. Introducing it in a restricted way allows for the opportunity to see how it would work without it being a free for all like you describe.

It'd be a much better way to challenge referee decisions for me than having every decision scrutinised by someone in a studio in arseville nitpicking over whether a linesman has spotted Mata's kneecap or not, which was an absolute joke and not the intent of VAR at all.

Challenges or no challenges, I totally agree it's been handled with minimal competence so far. I want correct decisions and usage of video technology in football but as usual the authorities and the referees are on another planet with how they work these things, like watching your Dad spending 15 minutes sending a two line text message.

[robgomm]

I didn't say that I agree with the current implementation (either of VAR or the offside rule), but under the current rules for both, an "error" (not being flagged offside when he was, under the current interpretation) was overturned and corrected.

" The original decision is only changed if it was clearly and obviously wrong." It's not about mere errors.

That's from the FA website. The linesman was not clearly and obviously wrong to award offside. It's not about hindsight and whether if you draw a (straight) line you find that Mata was offside by a kneecap: VAR as currently implemented is supposed to overturn clear and obvious errors. If we're saying that's clearly and obviously wrong then we're expecting linesman to have access to the same levels of visual acuity as The Terminator.

Now, in tennis you might find a situation where a line judge calls a ball out and it's by a hair's breadth on the line. And nobody would have a go at the line judge, they'd sympathise with the closness and the decision would be overturned using Hawkeye. That's fine because in tennis it is challenged based and ultimately about whether the ball is in or out by whatever margin. In football, the FA has - wrongly I think but here we are - decided that VAR should only be used to overturn clear and obvious mistakes. Most linesman would've given that onside, which certainly doesn't make it clear and obvious I'm afraid.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Surely it’s an obvious error if he didn’t call the offside correctly?

[newterp]

Can we go back to making fun is joseeeee please?

[jillcwhomever]

So will Pogba play on Wednesday? It sounds like there is a real battle going on behind the seams between player v manager. Can't see it ending well.

[CraigDS]

Can't see it ending well.

We can but hope 

Just a shame it's so soon after the transfer window closed as gives plenty of time to sort it out. Had it been during the window could have seen it escalating quite quickly.

[BabuYagu]

So will Pogba play on Wednesday? It sounds like there is a real battle going on behind the seams between player v manager. Can't see it ending well.

Depends I guess on Mourinho's pre-game press conference. If he is ruled out injured, he will declare himself fit. If Mourinho says he will start, then you can bet he won't

[jillcwhomever]

Interesting comments today with Mourinho admitting he doesn't know when Pogba will return, so it makes you doubt he'll be fit for the Sevilla game.

[BabuYagu]

Interesting comments today with Mourinho admitting he doesn't know when Pogba will return, so it makes you doubt he'll be fit for the Sevilla game.

Jose "Paul, can you play next game?"
Carlton "Piss Off"

Press Conference "I have no idea when he will return. When I call, I keep getting voicemail. When I text, all I get in reply if the pogba emoji. *sobs*"

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Probably a bit far in the past for some of our younger forumites, but back in the day Manchester United were always seen as the 'Glory Club' that would buy big and buy superstars as a matter of course.

It all changed when they got Schmiecal - the real catalyst for their club and then they got a load of kids all at the same time - which was unheard of before and since.

If they don't win the league for a few more seasons, given the cash they are awash with, it does look like they are reverting to type - spunk all their money on the next big thing with no regard to whether that's what they actually need or want - just satisfy the fans that they are spending big and repeat.

Personally I don't think it'll happen - they are just too rich to not win the league, but it seems clear they've wasted pretty much a billion quid on shite and if they seriously want to complete they'll probably have to spend something in the order of £500M. Their biggest problem is De Gea. They would be midtable without his brilliance. Only Stoke (equal) and Swansea (higher) have keepers forced to make more saves.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Andy with their recent spending record would you be confident they’d replace de gea well?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Andy with their recent spending record would you be confident they’d replace de gea well?

Not sure they could. He's not only probably the best keeper in the world at the moment, he's proven in the English game.

[newterp]

Andy with their recent spending record would you be confident they’d replace de gea well?

I'm just hoping that Jose does enough damage in the short term that it will take them 10 yrs to fix it - which of course is scary because they could still win trophies while the Shitcoat is here.

[BabuYagu]

Andy with their recent spending record would you be confident they’d replace de gea well?

Given that their Director of Football is Raiola, I think Donnarumma would be the replacement.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Surely it’s an obvious error if he didn’t call the offside correctly?

Not really. In cricket, they have “umpires call” for close LBW’s. Would be no different for close offsides.

[newterp]

Given that their Director of Football is Raiola, I think Donnarumma would be the replacement.

I had to look it up - but that’s quite funny.

[CraigDS]

Given that their Director of Football is Raiola, I think Donnarumma would be the replacement.

Yup, this would be my guess. If not they'd go out and buy one of Alisson or Oblak. No way they wouldn't get one of those if De Gea forced his way out.

[Iska]

Not really. In cricket, they have “umpires call” for close LBW’s. Would be no different for close offsides.

It’s not quite the same, because in cricket the ball doesn’t actually go on to hit the stumps so you have to accept that an lbw decision can only ever be a best guess, even when it’s Hawkeye that’s calling it.

In football we’re in the stupid position of believing that every decision can and should always be 100% right.  It would be a lot healthier if we accepted that there are always decisions that could go either way.  When former players are pundits they often annoy by fence-sitting - “you’ve seen them given” and so on - but VAR has brought me round to the view that they’re basically right.

[harleydanger]

Maybe they should position the main referee behind the screens with all camera views available and with the final say on decisions.  The referee on the pitch can be the secondary ref that decides on general issues, and on key issues such as penalties, cards, and reviewing offsides leading to goals, the main ref behind the monitors decides.

Would also make decisions more transparent as the main ref can explain his decisions if only because they have access to all the angles, rather than hiding behind the 'I couldn't see from my position' defence.

I'm not sure if you're serious

[Frizzo]

There's ways around that, though, that would limit the usage of challenges to maybe one per half and might even limit them to normal time, for example, not injury time. And they might be used to challenge goals, red cards and penalties as VAR works presently. Introducing it in a restricted way allows for the opportunity to see how it would work without it being a free for all like you describe.

It'd be a much better way to challenge referee decisions for me than having every decision scrutinised by someone in a studio in arseville nitpicking over whether a linesman has spotted Mata's kneecap or not, which was an absolute joke and not the intent of VAR at all.

Challenges or no challenges, I totally agree it's been handled with minimal competence so far. I want correct decisions and usage of video technology in football but as usual the authorities and the referees are on another planet with how they work these things, like watching your Dad spending 15 minutes sending a two line text message.

You've absolutely nailed it mate.

Even when we got the penalty overturned for salah against West Brom I was shaking my head.

To take an age to decide what should've been a split second "no that's not a clear and obvious mistake, carry on" is exactly the kind of shit people against VAR were worried about.

They've handled it absolutely horrendously. If you need two or three or four replays to decide it's not clear and obvious.

The problem as well is all the idiot pundits don't help the situation. All the bleating about how disgraceful it was to not overturn the Willian decision, when again it wasn't "a clear and obvious mistake" gets in everyone's heads and no one knows wtf to think.

[newterp]

UGH - There's a VAR Thread - here:

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=335930.0

[didi shamone]

Twenty four hours from today,
Pogba Pogba chose not to play,
Instead he said he'd get a new hairstyle,
Cos he wants to raise his profile,
Though his week didn't go to plan,
He said anything is better than,

Sergeant shitcoats spawny tarts club gang.....

We're sergeant shitcoats spawny tarts club gang,
We know you won't enjoy the show,
We're sergeant shitcoats spawny tarts club gang,
Fuck knows why people chose to go...

[zero zero]

We're sergeant shitcoats spawny tarts club gang,
We know you won't enjoy the show,

[So… Howard Philips]

Andy with their recent spending record would you be confident they’d replace de gea well?

How many ropey keepers did they have between Schmiechel and De Gea?

[newterp]

How many ropey keepers did they have between Schmiechel and De Gea?

Wasn’t Van der Saar decent/more than decent?

[redgriffin73]

We're sergeant shitcoats spawny tarts club gang,
We know you won't enjoy the show,
We're sergeant shitcoats spawny tarts club gang,
Fuck knows why people chose to go...