Author Topic: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series - MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS (Read 68950 times)

RMG · « **Reply #121 on:** January 4, 2016, 02:54:22 pm »

Quote from: Carlito Roberto on January 4, 2016, 04:48:46 am

Very strange Colburn running a check on the missing car 2 days before it was found I thought. When he was asked about it on the stand he had no explanation whatsoever.

You'd have thought he would have been briefed on it before he took the stand.

Lad · « **Reply #122 on:** January 4, 2016, 02:58:39 pm »

Truly amazing series. Utterly compulsive viewing. The missus and I both had trouble sleeping after one episode our heads were spinning so much.

What I find staggering is the fact her ex boyfriend and flatmate were never considered suspects as would normally be the case in a murder investigation.
You would interview them immediately to rule them in or out.

Strange very strange. Also Brendan's brother looked very uncomfortable on the stand.

robertobaggio37 · « **Reply #123 on:** January 4, 2016, 04:42:27 pm »

Having watched 7 episodes and knowing the outcome already no doubt in my mind SA is innocent. The only "bad" thing his lawyers did was not helping out his cousin Brendan Dassey. Had they took his case I think the outcome would be very, very different.

Phil M · « **Reply #124 on:** January 4, 2016, 06:08:43 pm »

Quote from: robertobaggio37 on January 4, 2016, 04:42:27 pm

The only "bad" thing his lawyers did was not helping out his cousin Brendan Dassey.

Unless they're hired and their fees paid by someone there's little "helping" they could do.

Millie · « **Reply #125 on:** January 4, 2016, 06:40:24 pm »

Finished watching this yesterday. So hard to say if Steve Avery killed her or not given the police and their dubious tactics. What is pretty clear - to me at least - is that enough reasonable doubt was provided by the defence team (from what we saw in the documentary ) to bring about a not guilty verdict.

As for Brendan - that "confession" should never have been allowed to be heard in court - he never stood a chance from the beginning

Vork+The Knights of Good · « **Reply #126 on:** January 4, 2016, 06:44:47 pm »

Quote from: Alan_X on January 4, 2016, 09:47:52 am

It's fairly obvious which time she was lying - the original testimony was based on the DA's lurid retelling of Brendan's obviously fabricated nonsense account of the murder with all the rape, mutilation, stabbing etc that obviously never happened.

Brendan's interrogation was a shameful act by two detectives who had complete disregard for a vulnerable young man.

Her original testimony couldn't be true because the things she described never happened.

*edit - and if you can't see the 'good people' vs 'white trash' undercurrent that pervades the whole case from Steven Avery's early run-ins with the law you really need to open your eyes.

The socioeconomic undercurrents are plain for anyone to see. I never said they weren't a pervasive factor in his arrest, the subsequent case, or the overall narrative surrounding it. They clearly were. My only contention was with regards to the victim's brother who I thought was being harshly judged by some. I don't think any of us are properly positioned to ascribe motivations to his public statements. For one, his sister had been brutally murdered. Secondly, he (AFAIK) has no formal training in PR or public speaking. He was simply representing the interests of his family and their feelings. If there are any members of the group opposed to Steven Avery for whom we can have sympathy and not see as antagonists, it's them. That's all I ever tried to argue.

Alan_X · « **Reply #127 on:** January 4, 2016, 06:46:57 pm »

Quote from: robertobaggio37 on January 4, 2016, 04:42:27 pm

Having watched 7 episodes and knowing the outcome already no doubt in my mind SA is innocent. The only "bad" thing his lawyers did was not helping out his cousin Brendan Dassey. Had they took his case I think the outcome would be very, very different.

They couldn't. Avery had to settle his case for $400k (instead of the £35 million) simply to pay for his legal team. Dassey had to rely on the godawful public defender.

Alan_X · « **Reply #128 on:** January 4, 2016, 06:54:12 pm »

Quote from: Vork+The Knights of Good on January 4, 2016, 06:44:47 pm

The socioeconomic undercurrents are plain for anyone to see. I never said they weren't a pervasive factor in his arrest, the subsequent case, or the overall narrative surrounding it. They clearly were. My only contention was with regards to the victim's brother who I thought was being harshly judged by some. I don't think any of us are properly positioned to ascribe motivations to his public statements. For one, his sister had been brutally murdered. Secondly, he (AFAIK) has no formal training in PR or public speaking. He was simply representing the interests of his family and their feelings. If there are any members of the group opposed to Steven Avery for whom we can have sympathy and not see as antagonists, it's them. That's all I ever tried to argue.

Fair enough - I tried to make the same arguments for him as you have. The trouble was he just came across as an incredibly ignorant and ill-informed twat.

But I agree with you that it's wrong to ascribe anything underhand to his behaviour or that he was acting in an unusual way for a small-town, mid-west jock who'd lost his sister.

Having lived through some of the dreadful miscarriages of justice in the UK (Birmingham 6, Guildford 4, Colin Stagg etc) I think a lot of us are less convinced that the police are always right, that confessions are always reliable or that evidence can be manipulated or mis-read.

Alan_X · « **Reply #129 on:** January 4, 2016, 06:57:53 pm »

Quote from: In Fowler We Trust on January 4, 2016, 06:40:24 pm

Finished watching this yesterday. So hard to say if Steve Avery killed her or not given the police and their dubious tactics. What is pretty clear - to me at least - is that enough reasonable doubt was provided by the defence team (from what we saw in the documentary ) to bring about a not guilty verdict.

As for Brendan - that "confession" should never have been allowed to be heard in court - he never stood a chance from the beginning

I've just been reading through the UK guidance on confessions and in this country I think the case would have been thrown out before it got to trial. His educational level meant he would have had an appropriate adult and he would have been entitled to a solicitor.

Millie · « **Reply #130 on:** January 4, 2016, 07:05:45 pm »

Quote from: Alan_X on January 4, 2016, 06:57:53 pm

I've just been reading through the UK guidance on confessions and in this country I think the case would have been thrown out before it got to trial. His educational level meant he would have had an appropriate adult and he would have been entitled to a solicitor.

Absolutely

ericthered10 · « **Reply #131 on:** January 4, 2016, 07:27:01 pm »

Strang - John Oliver dubbed over by Sam Waterston
Buting - Christopher Meloni
Kachinsky - William H Macy or that guy from CSI Miami
Halbach - Parker Posey

Alan_X · « **Reply #132 on:** January 4, 2016, 07:54:33 pm »

Quote from: ericthered10 on January 4, 2016, 07:27:01 pm

Halbach - Parker Posey

Really? Halbach? She's actually dead you know.

Shabby14 · « **Reply #133 on:** January 4, 2016, 08:07:47 pm »

The officer calling dispatch about the car few days before it was found - is just madness. When I heard that, I though "Got him" but not much was made of it.
Surely the officer found the car, called it in to find out who's it was, then decided what to do with it.

The defence questioned him, asking, who would be saying the number plate, "me" he replied, and he was right. Then they asked him who would say the name of the registered owner, "the operator" which he was right. Then they ask him who would be saying the make and model, "the operator" he answered, and he was wrong/lying. Madness. He had no explanation. And that was it, they moved on.

What I find weird/disturbing is, that there's someone out there who knows exactly what happened, whether it be SA or another killer. Kind of like Madeleine McCann case. Someone knows exactly what happens, but we may, or probably won't, ever know. So strange.

Alan_X · « **Reply #134 on:** January 4, 2016, 08:22:54 pm »

Quote from: Shabby14 on January 4, 2016, 08:07:47 pm

The officer calling dispatch about the car few days before it was found - is just madness. When I heard that, I though "Got him" but not much was made of it.
Surely the officer found the car, called it in to find out who's it was, then decided what to do with it.

The defence questioned him, asking, who would be saying the number plate, "me" he replied, and he was right. Then they asked him who would say the name of the registered owner, "the operator" which he was right. Then they ask him who would be saying the make and model, "the operator" he answered, and he was wrong/lying. Madness. He had no explanation. And that was it, they moved on.

What I find weird/disturbing is, that there's someone out there who knows exactly what happened, whether it be SA or another killer. Kind of like Madeleine McCann case. Someone knows exactly what happens, but we may, or probably won't, ever know. So strange.

It seems obvious but the problem is the case was against Avery not Holborne. It didn't make the blood samples go away, or the key, or the bullet etc. And in small town America it's not so easy to push the 'corrupt police' line.

And whole case was overshadowed by the lurid 'confession' from Brendan that had everyone thinking about the horrendous rape and murder Avery had clearly committed. A nuance about calling in the licence plate is compelling if you have an open mind - if you're already convinced of Avery's guilt it's just an inconvenient and ignorable anomaly.

Because why would anyone make a confession unless they'd actually done it?

Shabby14 · « **Reply #135 on:** January 4, 2016, 08:30:42 pm »

Aye. Scary really.

Another thought - CCTV of the evidence storage unit would have been too good to be true, and it was. Imagine.

ericthered10 · « **Reply #136 on:** January 4, 2016, 08:37:17 pm »

Quote from: Alan_X on January 4, 2016, 07:54:33 pm

Really? Halbach? She's actually dead you know.

Just my TV movie casting...for the flashbacks dramatization ya know. She's a good enough actress tho, so I'd save some money casting her as the charred bones too, she'd knock it out of the park

Brian Blessed · « **Reply #137 on:** January 4, 2016, 08:39:53 pm »

Compelling viewing. From all the refusals of retrials, and then the supreme court refusing to even hear either case, it does seem the State of Wisconsin wanted this to go away. Too fucking bad.

Vork+The Knights of Good · « **Reply #138 on:** January 4, 2016, 08:47:09 pm »

Quote from: Alan_X on January 4, 2016, 06:54:12 pm

Fair enough - I tried to make the same arguments for him as you have. The trouble was he just came across as an incredibly ignorant and ill-informed twat.

But I agree with you that it's wrong to ascribe anything underhand to his behaviour or that he was acting in an unusual way for a small-town, mid-west jock who'd lost his sister.

Having lived through some of the dreadful miscarriages of justice in the UK (Birmingham 6, Guildford 4, Colin Stagg etc) I think a lot of us are less convinced that the police are always right, that confessions are always reliable or that evidence can be manipulated or mis-read.

Yeah, I don't think he came across great, but then again I doubt I would either in that situation. National spotlight, highly complex case, beyond emotive for you personally, and seemingly no guidance from any sort of trained PR entity. All in all, it's probably a bit surprising he didn't come off looking worse than he did.

I agree with everything you say regarding the police, but I can also easily see how the victim's family can get sucked into the narrative espoused by the prosecution who are supposed to be the one's fighting for them. I'm sure they framed it as a desperate attempt by Avery to use his previous wrongful conviction as an attempt to get away with this heinous crime. I think it's probably asking a bit much of the victim's family to expect them to see beyond the man who was apparently the last to see her alive, whose blood was found in her car, and was found to be in possession of her car key. You and I can easily see beyond that (keep in mind that we also got a detailed backstory of the previous injustice and insight into the improprieties committed by the police) which I assume the family did not. They weren't watching a 10-episode Netflix series.

Brian Blessed · « **Reply #139 on:** January 4, 2016, 08:51:03 pm »

Her brother didn't come off great, actually unlikeable, but his sister was raped murdered and he was being told by "trusted authorities" they had the people who did it. And I'm sure you'd want to believe it's the right people as you want justice.

I didn't much care for Brandon's brother, either. He never came off well, and his reaction when Brandon's verdict was read out was a little odd. He seemed to grin. I know people react in different ways to stress, but it looked odd.

RMG · « **Reply #140 on:** January 4, 2016, 09:04:00 pm »

It's all a bit mad really, I just can't help but keep on thinking about Brendan's trial.

He was totally mocked for being bullied in school and also his girlfriend breaking up with him because of his weight. That cousin breaking down on the stand and other than his mother not one person came out of that trial well.

How these people on the jury didn't think that something is well fishy about all this thing is beyond me.

Saying that when he was questioned at trial his responses weren't helping, I'm sure he said he didn't know at least 10 times when really he should be saying that he was being pushed into saying something that wasn't true.

red_Mark1980 · « **Reply #141 on:** January 4, 2016, 09:10:38 pm »

Quote from: Impolite King Brian Blessed on January 4, 2016, 08:51:03 pm

Her brother didn't come off great, actually unlikeable, but his sister was raped

Snip.

Evidence?

I know I come across badly in that. But there is no evidence she was raped aside from Gasseys confessions.

Which if believed... Well I'm not going to expand.

I'm trying to illustrate how anyone can get swept up.

Brian Blessed · « **Reply #142 on:** January 4, 2016, 09:27:48 pm »

Quote from: red_Mark1980 on January 4, 2016, 09:10:38 pm

Snip.

Evidence?

I know I come across badly in that. But there is no evidence she was raped aside from Gasseys confessions.

Which if believed... Well I'm not going to expand.

I'm trying to illustrate how anyone can get swept up.

I don;t think there was evidence, but I do think he thought it happened. And it's Dassey.

red_Mark1980 · « **Reply #143 on:** January 4, 2016, 09:36:15 pm »

Quote from: Impolite King Brian Blessed on January 4, 2016, 09:27:48 pm

I don;t think there was evidence, but I do think he thought it happened. And it's Dassey.

And its Brendan not Brandon.

Quote from: Impolite King Brian Blessed on January 4, 2016, 08:51:03 pm

Her brother didn't come off great, actually unlikeable, but his sister was raped murdered and he was being told by "trusted authorities" they had the people who did it. And I'm sure you'd want to believe it's the right people as you want justice.

I didn't much care for Brandon's brother, either. He never came off well, and his reaction when Brandon's verdict was read out was a little odd. He seemed to grin. I know people react in different ways to stress, but it looked odd.

I agree her brother thought it happened. But the point is (and to be clear I'm purposely being obtuse with this) your post reads as its a fact she was raped. When the only evidence is Brendan Dasseys "confession"

Brian Blessed · « **Reply #144 on:** January 4, 2016, 09:42:19 pm »

Yeah, I just typed it poorly.

red_Mark1980 · « **Reply #145 on:** January 4, 2016, 09:45:42 pm »

Quote from: Impolite King Brian Blessed on January 4, 2016, 09:42:19 pm

Yeah, I just typed it poorly.

Again. I was purposely being obtuse mate as you'd previously pulled me up. No harm meant

Millie · « **Reply #146 on:** January 4, 2016, 09:47:29 pm »

I dont know it works in the USA - but when my brother in law was murdered we were assigned a family liaison officer and were constantly keep up to date from the police was happening etc. I can easily see the victim's family totally trusting the police here - I know we did.

johnsmithlfc · « **Reply #147 on:** January 4, 2016, 09:49:51 pm »

I didn't find the brother of Halbach that awful to be honest, don't get the hate.
He has police, DA and investigators etc telling him they've got the guy who killed their sister/daughter, he's grieving and
He believes the authority figures who are telling him that a key is found, her remains found and Avery's blood in her car and car found at his place.
Why would he doubt anything?

Then he's told they have a taped confession from Brendan.
And probably told that the defence will be desperate and come out with everything to try and get their client off.

It's hard to judge someone when there's a media circus going on, you see the man you're told is responsible for murdering and now raping, your sister, being defended and have to see him every day when your blood is boiling.

I dunno man....I can't hate the guy.

red_Mark1980 · « **Reply #148 on:** January 4, 2016, 09:51:01 pm »

Quote from: In Fowler We Trust on January 4, 2016, 09:47:29 pm

I dont know it works in the USA - but when my brother in law was murdered we were assigned a family liaison officer and were constantly keep up to date from the police was happening etc. I can easily see the victim's family totally trusting the police here - I know we did.

Sorry to hear about your brother in law.

I guess we are all massively different. For a number of reasons (even putting South Yorkshire and West Midlands police conduct in 1989 and beyond aside) I view the police force with scepticism

Millie · « **Reply #149 on:** January 4, 2016, 09:53:31 pm »

Quote from: red_Mark1980 on January 4, 2016, 09:51:01 pm

Sorry to hear about your brother in law.

I guess we are all massively different. For a number of reasons (even putting South Yorkshire and West Midlands police conduct in 1989 and beyond aside) I view the police force with scepticism

Oh I know - but when you are the victim's family in a murder case it's different.

My family was involved in Hillsborough too and I have nothing but contempt for what happened with that shower from South Yorkshire.

red_Mark1980 · « **Reply #150 on:** January 4, 2016, 09:53:45 pm »

Quote from: johnsmithlfc on January 4, 2016, 09:49:51 pm

I didn't find the brother of Halbach that awful to be honest, don't get the hate.
He has police, DA and investigators etc telling him they've got the guy who killed their sister/daughter, he's grieving and
He believes the authority figures who are telling him that a key is found, her remains found and Avery's blood in her car and car found at his place.
Why would he doubt anything?

Then he's told they have a taped confession from Brendan.
And probably told that the defence will be desperate and come out with everything to try and get their client off.

It's hard to judge someone when there's a media circus going on, you see the man you're told is responsible for murdering and now raping, your sister, being defended and have to see him every day when your blood is boiling.

I dunno man....I can't hate the guy.

Hate is a strong word. Speaking for myself, (and I may be wrong) but I don't think that view has been expressed?

I find him odd and at times I'm wondering what the fuck he's doing. But never hate

Brian Blessed · « **Reply #151 on:** January 4, 2016, 09:55:29 pm »

Quote from: red_Mark1980 on January 4, 2016, 09:45:42 pm

Again. I was purposely being obtuse mate as you'd previously pulled me up. No harm meant

Yeah not hate, just unlikeable.

Millie · « **Reply #152 on:** January 4, 2016, 09:56:09 pm »

Quote from: red_Mark1980 on January 4, 2016, 09:53:45 pm

Hate is a strong word. Speaking for myself, (and I may be wrong) but I don't think that view has been expressed?

I find him odd and at times I'm wondering what the fuck he's doing. But never hate

Again - having some experience - when something like this happens - you do not act normally - your are in a different universe half the time - hard to explain but you just aren't normal for quite some time

johnsmithlfc · « **Reply #153 on:** January 4, 2016, 09:59:14 pm »

Quote from: red_Mark1980 on January 4, 2016, 09:53:45 pm

Hate is a strong word. Speaking for myself, (and I may be wrong) but I don't think that view has been expressed?

I find him odd and at times I'm wondering what the fuck he's doing. But never hate

It's just an expression....I don't mean anyone literally hates him.
But I've seen around the web more so, that people calling him names, saying he was this or that, what he was thinking, his facial expressions.

All seems a bit much.

Saying 'he didn't come across well' is fair enough I guess but did anyone on the prosecution side or against Avery?
That's the point of the documentary, to put forward the evidence and case for defence and tell Avery's side and highlight the incompetence and blatant corruption and wrongdoing in the case.

There are several people in the documentary who are blatant c*nts... I feel the brother if anything, is just too trusting of the police and prosecutions side and understandably wants justice and probably vengeance for his sisters murder.

Brian Blessed · « **Reply #154 on:** January 4, 2016, 10:00:48 pm »

Quote from: johnsmithlfc on January 4, 2016, 09:59:14 pm

It's just an expression....I don't mean anyone literally hates him.
But I've seen around the web more so, that people calling him names, saying he was this or that, what he was thinking, his facial expressions.

All seems a bit much.

There are several people in the documentary who are blatant c*nts... I feel the brother if anything, is just too trusting of the police and prosecutions side and understandably wants justice and probably vengeance for his sisters murder.

I'd actually love to know what he thinks of the documentary. Whether he still steadfastly believes justice was done, or if he'd like another investigation.

stoa · « **Reply #155 on:** January 4, 2016, 10:05:34 pm »

For me, it has nothing to do with what he's saying about the case even though some of the stuff he comes out with is kind of shocking. I just don't feel (from what little you see from him in the series) that he doesn't come across as very likeable. He's not someone I'd want to have a beer with (not that I'd have one with Avery or Dassey). He just seems like the typical upper class in a small town, go to church every Sunday and look down on all the plebs kind of guy. In real life he might be different, but that's the impression I'm getting from him watching the documentary...

johnsmithlfc · « **Reply #156 on:** January 4, 2016, 10:06:00 pm »

Quote from: Impolite King Brian Blessed on January 4, 2016, 10:00:48 pm

I'd actually love to know what he thinks of the documentary. Whether he still steadfastly believes justice was done, or if he'd like another investigation.

Definitely, now 10 years or so have passed it would be interesting.
But maybe in their mind justice was done, money is being made out of his dead sister...I don't think he's too happy about it all and I doubt he'll watch it or talk.

Ya never know though.

cissepower · « **Reply #157 on:** January 4, 2016, 10:19:06 pm »

Just finished this. Wow.

Don't even know where to begin really.

WelshMike · « **Reply #158 on:** January 4, 2016, 10:45:29 pm »

Quote from: johnsmithlfc on January 4, 2016, 09:59:14 pm

It's just an expression....I don't mean anyone literally hates him.
But I've seen around the web more so, that people calling him names, saying he was this or that, what he was thinking, his facial expressions.

All seems a bit much.

Saying 'he didn't come across well' is fair enough I guess but did anyone on the prosecution side or against Avery?
That's the point of the documentary, to put forward the evidence and case for defence and tell Avery's side and highlight the incompetence and blatant corruption and wrongdoing in the case.

There are several people in the documentary who are blatant c*nts... I feel the brother if anything, is just too trusting of the police and prosecutions side and understandably wants justice and probably vengeance for his sisters murder.

As I've already commented, for the most part he comes off as "misguided" let's say, but the things he says about Dassey's cousin (?), the young girl, as well as one or two other remarks, are just plain horrible.

Also, for those saying 'how was he supposed to keep calm?', look at Steven Avery. Locked up for 18 years for a crime he didn't do, vilified by the police and press and communtiy alike, and never compensated for it. I'm surprised he refrained from killing himself the first time, let alone after all this (especially if he's innocent again). And yet throughout the whole thing he's calm, restrained and understanding. He shows a stunning amount of self-control and awareness of those around him despite having his life ruined by the self same people.

WelshMike · « **Reply #159 on:** January 4, 2016, 10:47:32 pm »

Quote from: johnsmithlfc on January 4, 2016, 01:28:53 pm

The Innocence Project, who removed Avery's 1985 case from their website and distanced themselves from him, Have now put the case back on their website

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/making-a-murderer-the-innocence-project-heard-in-serial-reinstates-steven-avery-case-on-website-a6795316.html

http://www.innocenceproject.org/cases-false-imprisonment/steven-avery

That's awfully nice of them all of a sudden... very timely too. A glorified PR exercise after they wanted nothing to do with him a long time before any evidence, let alone the trial itself.