Author Topic: American Literature  (Read 24512 times)

Offline red mongoose

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #160 on: January 24, 2014, 04:01:45 pm »
And I think that McCarthy's ex-wife would, at the very least and probably worse, piss over every other American writer in the literal sense, rather than the metaphorical sense, if this report is true.


I've never got into Pynchon (more of a McCarthy and Roth fan myself). So (a) is he worth getting into and if so (b) which novels?

It really depends, mate. Like I said, he is a very difficult author to just sit back and read - you really have to concentrate, and even then, you feel like you are missing something. But even so, there are just SO many great aspects of his books. For example, "Mason & Dixon" is written in the dialect of the time and it is a bit slow going - but then all of a sudden Lewis and Clark find some pot and they get high and it is a really funny scene. But the enjoyable bits are not all slapstick like that - he is just full of ideas and invention and normally his characters are extremely interesting and nuanced.

I haven't read his latest three yet - "Against the Day," "Inherent Vice" and "Bleeding Edge" - I have heard the latter two are more straightforward and easy to read, but I don't have any firsthand knowledge about that yet. The easiest book of the others to just flat-out read is "Vineland" and I would start with that one. "Gravity's Rainbow" will blow your mind, but I will be the first to hold up my hands and tell you that I have no idea what actually happened. At the same time, it is such a great story - the main character is in London near the end of WW2 and he is convinced that the Germans are aiming V2 rockets at him. It's very difficult to explain - it is postmodernism, so it is art broken up into pieces which are then reassembled in the wrong places. My favorite book of his is "V." He's a real challenge, but he is the one author like that who I have read and have felt it was worth it afterwards. Actually, like I said in that long post, if you can get your hands on an annotated version of his short story "Entropy" it really gives you a good idea what he is about - it is less of a commitment on your part and then you can decide if you want to check him out further. Just my two cents  ;)
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Offline Ray K

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #161 on: January 24, 2014, 05:44:06 pm »
Paul Thomas Anderson is filming Inherent Vice for release this year, so I guess for a starting place that's as good a reason as any.
Most of the Amazon reviews say that it's his most accessible novel.
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Offline red mongoose

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #162 on: January 24, 2014, 05:53:37 pm »
Paul Thomas Anderson is filming Inherent Vice for release this year, so I guess for a starting place that's as good a reason as any.
Most of the Amazon reviews say that it's his most accessible novel.

That's right, I forgot about the film. I'll have to move that one to the top of the list  ;)
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Offline UntouchableLuis

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #163 on: January 24, 2014, 06:02:03 pm »
Like others, I struggle with Hemingway. I loved A Farewell to Arms but hated The Old Man and the Sea and couldn't get in to For Whom the Bell Tolls.

Saligner wrote beautifully. CITR is my favourite novel and I think it always will be; it just hits all the right notes and displays the falsities of Holden's world (which is really our world) wonderfully. His short stories are equally brilliant.

Fitzgerald is fantastic but hard going at times. His novels all seem to mingle together in my memory but Tender is the Night is my favourite and most complete novel (even more so than Gatsby).

I have never read Catch 22 or Slaughterhouse Five so going to aim to read those soon.



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Offline Zlen

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #164 on: January 24, 2014, 06:14:44 pm »
Of all american literature I've read I think I love stories by Raymond Carver the most.

Offline red mongoose

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #165 on: January 25, 2014, 04:05:43 am »
Of all american literature I've read I think I love stories by Raymond Carver the most.

He's great, and he's sort of the one great example that comes to everyone's mind when they think of minimalism done well. Normally I can't stand that sort of thing (see my tirade against Hemingway), but Carver really found a way. For me, he's the exception that proves the rule.
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Online SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #166 on: January 25, 2014, 09:49:09 am »
Carver is exceptional.

Very interesting case though - his minimal style is partly the work of his editor - they published an 'unedited' version of one of his collections a couple of years ago, think perhaps it was his widow who published it/was behind the publication? It showed that a lot of his 'minimal' style came from his editor removing vast tracts of writing to produce the final pieces that made his name. And without the removals, his writing was a lot weaker in my opinion.
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Offline Henry Chinaski

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #167 on: January 26, 2014, 12:33:51 pm »
John Fante didn't get a shout yet, did he? His first three novels are all excellent. 'Ask the Dust' was a major influence on Bukowski's writing.

Read two literary hypes a while ago: 'Stoner' by John Williams, and 'Freedom' by Franzen. Totally different, yet both terrific.
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Offline red mongoose

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #168 on: January 26, 2014, 12:53:21 pm »
John Fante didn't get a shout yet, did he? His first three novels are all excellent. 'Ask the Dust' was a major influence on Bukowski's writing.

Read two literary hypes a while ago: 'Stoner' by John Williams, and 'Freedom' by Franzen. Totally different, yet both terrific.

I'm reading "Freedom" this very minute ;) I liked "The Corrections" quite a bit - it didn't set my world on fire or anything, but it is a very solid book and a good story well told.
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Offline Zlen

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #169 on: January 27, 2014, 06:42:55 am »
Carver is exceptional.

Very interesting case though - his minimal style is partly the work of his editor - they published an 'unedited' version of one of his collections a couple of years ago, think perhaps it was his widow who published it/was behind the publication? It showed that a lot of his 'minimal' style came from his editor removing vast tracts of writing to produce the final pieces that made his name. And without the removals, his writing was a lot weaker in my opinion.

Interesting, didn't know that.
I'd like to read some pieces side by side, just to see how much of that tradmark 'feel' is there in his unedited work.

Offline Zlen

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #170 on: January 27, 2014, 06:56:01 am »
Just bought by first Susan Sontag book, a collection of writing and speaches 'At the same time'.
Anybody read her work and what would you advise me to read?
Is her fiction any good?

Offline gerrardsarmy

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #171 on: March 9, 2014, 06:51:53 am »
Bump. Love the American stuff.

I've recently, through nothing but pure circumstance, been reading work primarily by the American greats - I've come to the conclusion that I'll read through as much as I can until I feel like a change, where I might give some Russian greats a go, although they are a bit daunting.

In my opinion the American lit is the most accessible literature for an uninitiated 22 year old.

I read things like Catcher in the Rye (hate that book) and To Kill a Mockingbird (my all time favourite) in high school, really didn't read that much for a while but then last year picked up The Great Gatsby, which I thought was brilliant and On The Road by Kerouac, which wasn't exactly life changing, but you can quite clearly see that it's a product of its generation.

My latest American binge all started with my first Hemingway (A Farewell to Arms - loved it) at the start of the year. He was also a prolific short story writer and one that sticks out is 'Hills like White Elephants' for anyone interested.

Since then I've read some Vonnegut, and Hunter S Thompson. (who apparently didn't write his work in a drug-fueled craze like I initially thought but used to spend hours and hours crafting his prose. He also used to write out chapters of The Great Gatsby and the Bible to get into the flow of a story.)

I do have some glaring omissions though. Have never read Steinbeck, Twain, Bukowski or Heller and Cormac McCarthy, among many, many others. So a long way to go yet.

Someone I haven't seen mentioned is James Baldwin (Go Tell it on the Mountain, Another Country), who wrote primarily during civil rights era America.
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Offline gerrardsarmy

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #172 on: June 26, 2014, 10:39:27 am »
Anyone read any short stories by Flannery O'Connor?

I just got her collection and she is brilliant.
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Offline red mongoose

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #173 on: June 26, 2014, 04:11:40 pm »
Anyone read any short stories by Flannery O'Connor?

I just got her collection and she is brilliant.

She is, by miles, the best female writer that I have ever read. That is not to pigeonhole her as a "female writer" or limit her in any way - she is a great writer, full stop, no reservations. Her novel "Wise Blood" is awesome and is criminally overlooked. "A Good Man is Hard to Find" is a brilliant short story, but then all of hers are. I can't recommend her highly enough - just awesome.
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Offline telekon

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #174 on: June 27, 2014, 03:47:08 pm »
Did anyone read Zelda Fitzgerald? Have a "collected works" lying about but never really got into reading everything. Saved it for later but almost forgot about it. Only read some letters (to Scott) and articles and they were brilliant. Very ironic in style and appears to be ahead of its time in some regards, like some proto-modernism.
She endured a sad fate and in some ways her twisted style writing seems to be the other side of the coin of what made her ill. Just from the first pages of her only novel it seems almost as her brain is wired differently than most others. Can't wait to read more from her.
As a famous person probably not, but as a writer she seems quite underrated.

Haven't seen anyone mention Washington Irving in this thread either! Love Rip van Winkle and some of his other short stories.

I also have a question which seems suitable for this thread. I've heard or read somewhere that Kerouac wrote a novel where the setting is his University years. I've searched and searched but can't find it, if it was ever written. Maggie Cassidy was his High School years and it was a good one, but I thought I read he wrote a "University" one.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 03:48:44 pm by telekon »
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Offline gerrardsarmy

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #175 on: July 6, 2014, 04:10:55 pm »
She is, by miles, the best female writer that I have ever read. That is not to pigeonhole her as a "female writer" or limit her in any way - she is a great writer, full stop, no reservations. Her novel "Wise Blood" is awesome and is criminally overlooked. "A Good Man is Hard to Find" is a brilliant short story, but then all of hers are. I can't recommend her highly enough - just awesome.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one!

I love 'A Good Man is Hard to Find'. Other favourites are 'The Geranium' and 'Everything that Rises Must Converge'. It's a shame she died so young as I wish there was more to read. I've got 'Wise Blood' as well, will definitely be giving that a read.

Below is audio of her reading 'A Good Man is Hard to Find'. It's great to hear it in her voice.

[Part 1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZZgs46t9Z0

[Part 2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O_NdKz_jCw

[Part 3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcpGhICup9M
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #176 on: July 6, 2014, 04:12:58 pm »
She is, by miles, the best female writer that I have ever read. That is not to pigeonhole her as a "female writer" or limit her in any way - she is a great writer, full stop, no reservations. Her novel "Wise Blood" is awesome and is criminally overlooked. "A Good Man is Hard to Find" is a brilliant short story, but then all of hers are. I can't recommend her highly enough - just awesome.
A friend of mine keeps going on about her. I have a collection of her short stories, need to get on it.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #177 on: November 2, 2014, 12:34:29 am »
Little Q'n'A with Chuck Palahniuk, who wrote Fight Club and some very interesting stuff like Survivor and Fugitives and Refugees: A Walk in Portland, Oregon.

Offline UntouchableLuis

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #178 on: November 2, 2014, 01:44:45 pm »
Currently working through The Goldfinch by Donna Tartt. Really enjoying it so far, reminds me of stuff like Henry James.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #179 on: November 2, 2014, 02:08:06 pm »
Currently working through The Goldfinch by Donna Tartt. Really enjoying it so far, reminds me of stuff like Henry James.

Yes, excellent reading.

Offline Zlen

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #180 on: May 24, 2016, 12:09:49 am »
How good is effin Saul Bellow? Very, very good.

Offline gerrardsarmy

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #181 on: June 29, 2016, 02:57:16 pm »
I've been having a slight mid-twenties crisis and I've rekindled my interest in the thought of journalism as a career. So I've been reading a lot of longform journalism. This has led obviously to going over some of the American 'New Journalists'. The likes of Norman Mailer, Hunter S. Thompson, Tom Wolfe, Gay Talese, Joan Didion etc. While the concept of literary journalism wasn't entirely new at the time, these writers were its renaissance. Do we consider literary journalism - or creative non fiction - as part of American Literature? Or another classification entirely?

Of course, many of these writers have/had distinguished careers as fiction writers. 

Michael Herr died last week. I've just picked up 'Dispatches' for the first time. It's said to be one of the best war books ever written. So far, his writing is brilliant. Very early there's a visceral sense of chaos and surrealism of the Vietnam War. I'll report back when I'm done.

Just a few little examples of his writing:

Quote
That map was a marvel, especially now that it wasn’t real anymore. For one thing, it was very old. It had been left there years before by another tenant, probably a Frenchman, since the map had been made in Paris. The paper had buckled in its frame after years in the wet Saigon heat, laying a kind of veil over the countries it depicted ... That’s old, I’d tell visitors, that’s a really old map.

Quote
Home: twenty-eight years old, feeling like Rip van Winkle, with a heart like one of those little paper pills they make in China, you drop them into water and they open out to form a tiger or a flower or a pagoda. Mine opened out into war and loss.

(from this article - http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2016/06/27/michael-herr-1940-2016/)
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #182 on: June 29, 2016, 03:00:44 pm »
"Literature" is a fairly wobbly term anyway, so I can't see why literary non fiction shouldn't make the cut. 

Offline Corkboy

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #183 on: June 29, 2016, 03:10:45 pm »
Besides, Truman Capote's In Cold Blood would fall into that category, and he deserves inclusion in this thread, even for just being Harper Lee's mate.

Offline red mongoose

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #184 on: June 29, 2016, 06:07:29 pm »
I've been having a slight mid-twenties crisis and I've rekindled my interest in the thought of journalism as a career. So I've been reading a lot of longform journalism. This has led obviously to going over some of the American 'New Journalists'. The likes of Norman Mailer, Hunter S. Thompson, Tom Wolfe, Gay Talese, Joan Didion etc. While the concept of literary journalism wasn't entirely new at the time, these writers were its renaissance. Do we consider literary journalism - or creative non fiction - as part of American Literature? Or another classification entirely?

Of course, many of these writers have/had distinguished careers as fiction writers. 

Michael Herr died last week. I've just picked up 'Dispatches' for the first time. It's said to be one of the best war books ever written. So far, his writing is brilliant. Very early there's a visceral sense of chaos and surrealism of the Vietnam War. I'll report back when I'm done.

Just a few little examples of his writing:

(from this article - http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2016/06/27/michael-herr-1940-2016/)

I think it definitely belongs in the category of literature. I really love creative non-fiction, though I don't spend a lot of time seeking it out as I prefer the escapism of fiction. Hunter Thompson's work is as enjoyable and worthwhile a way to spend your time as I can think of. I tried to introduce that creativity whenever I could in my sportswriting, but I found myself writing articles that were far too long, especially when I was just meant to cover a baseball game  :P

The problem for me always has been and always will be when writers introduce non-fiction ideals into fiction. I've ranted about Hemingway enough in this thread, but suffice it to say he was for all intents and purposes the genesis of this foul brew. Plenty of people enjoy his novels and others like them, but for me that sort of scraping away to the bare essentials - which is necessary in journalism in order to fit the stories into limited available space - has become a virus that has overwhelmed the field of fiction lo these many years and has cost us countless F. Scott Fitzgeralds who may have been turned away for being too "fanciful." The thought of that makes me sick.

Just my 2 cents.
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Offline UntouchableLuis

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #185 on: December 25, 2016, 12:54:21 pm »
Anyone read much Faulkner?

I read As I Lay Dying at Uni and remember really loving the characters even though the narrative was difficult and disjointed at times.

Read my second Faulkner over the last few weeks 'The Sound and the Fury' and I really loved it although there's one chapter that is virtually impossible to understand IMO. It's a stream of consciousness chapter but there's no real markers of when one thought begins and another ends in some cases. Towards the end of the chapter there's literally no punctuation or any semblance of grammar at all.

The first chapter is similarly difficult but I think I got more out of that than the second (Benjy narrates the first and Quintin the second)

Chapter 3 and 4 are pretty clear and revert back to 'regular' prose for the most part.

-------

Been bought Steinbeck's short novella collection for Christmas - only ever read Of Mice and Men so look forward to seeing what they are like.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 12:56:00 pm by UntouchableLuis »
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Offline Ray K

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #186 on: May 15, 2018, 04:10:25 pm »
The man who created New Journalism, Tom Wolfe, has died at age 87.

Here's Michael Lewis's profile of him from a couple of years ago
How Tom Wolfe Became … Tom Wolfe
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Offline Ray K

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #187 on: May 23, 2018, 10:35:58 am »
And now Philip Roth's gone too.

I haven't read his earlier stuff (not much interest in reading about Portnoy bashing the ol' bishop), but his later trio of American Pastoral / Human Stain / Plot Against America are as strong as anyone else on modern American life in novels.

This is Roth comparing his fictional president in The Plot with another president

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Offline Corkboy

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #188 on: May 23, 2018, 10:54:19 am »
Yeah, two big hitters gone in short order.

Offline classycarra

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #189 on: May 23, 2018, 11:07:49 am »
Thanks for bumping an excellent thread.

I've shamefully had Portnoy's Pastoral and Stain on my to-read list for about a decade - maybe this is the jolt I need to start one. What's the consensus for the best way in? American Pastoral?


Offline Ray K

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #190 on: May 23, 2018, 11:23:51 am »
Maybe the Plot Against America is the best gateway novel - it's the only one with 'Philip Roth' as the narrator rather than the Nathan Zuckerman character, and it's the most stand-alone of the recent work. It's a novel even more suited for our times than during the Dubya years when it was written.
Get through that and it'll set you up nicely for Pastoral, which is the best of the ones I've read.
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Re: American Literature
« Reply #191 on: May 23, 2018, 11:32:11 am »
The Great American Novel is a crazy entertaining read.

Offline KillieRed

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #192 on: May 23, 2018, 12:01:55 pm »
Maybe the Plot Against America is the best gateway novel - it's the only one with 'Philip Roth' as the narrator rather than the Nathan Zuckerman character, and it's the most stand-alone of the recent work. It's a novel even more suited for our times than during the Dubya years when it was written.
Get through that and it'll set you up nicely for Pastoral, which is the best of the ones I've read.

I re-read The Plot Against America recently, a brilliant piece of work.

I`m excited to hear that there`s a TV show in the making that will hopefully bring Roth and some big issues to a wider audience.
The best way to scare a Tory is to read and get rich” - Idles.

Offline classycarra

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #193 on: May 23, 2018, 12:03:11 pm »
Thanks guys!

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #194 on: May 23, 2018, 08:08:39 pm »
I bought my girlfriend "I Married a Communist" for her birthday some fifteen years ago. Five years later, she married me.

She never read it, though.

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #195 on: May 24, 2018, 12:26:56 am »
The Great Philip Roth is dead. Along with Saul Bellow, the best American writer since the war. Don de Lillo inherits the crown.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #196 on: May 24, 2018, 12:29:17 am »
Feel somewhat ashamed to have only read American Pastoral. Will try and rectify that soon.

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #197 on: May 24, 2018, 10:02:16 am »
The Great Philip Roth is dead. Along with Saul Bellow, the best American writer since the war. Don de Lillo inherits the crown.

Cormac McCarthy would like a word.

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #198 on: May 24, 2018, 10:30:07 am »
Cormac McCarthy would like a word.

In silver medal position at the moment.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: American Literature
« Reply #199 on: May 24, 2018, 10:31:10 am »
Cormac McCarthy would like a word.

Texas is a nation unto itself