Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread

[Suareznumber7]

Would be good for ejaria and solanke I think.

I feel we’ll offload Kent permanently now. Had a poor season and regressed I would say

Would be a waste of time for Solanke.  If, and that's a big if because I think he'll be a bigger part of the first team next year, we loan out Solanke it'll be to a premier league team.  Going to the championship would be a waste of time and sending him to the SPL would be absolutely ridiculous. 

[Chris~]

Think it's time to move on Ejaria, Kent, Ojo, etc. but imagine clubs will be happy enough waiting deep in to the transfer window knowing we'd rather loan them out then keep them on the books.

Would probably keep Solanke around the first team but guess it depends on what happens with Origi and Ings, if we keep one of them.

Loan Woodburn out as well with the hope that it goes well and then replace Lallana's minutes in the squad with him.

Wilson, not sure, depends if we buy another first team player for the front 3 positions, if we do then try and sell with a buy back or loan out I guess.

[dudleyred]

Would be a waste of time for Solanke.  If, and that's a big if because I think he'll be a bigger part of the first team next year, we loan out Solanke it'll be to a premier league team.  Going to the championship would be a waste of time and sending him to the SPL would be absolutely ridiculous. 

I disagree. If he played for a premier league team every week then yes thats a better option but not sure this will happen. If he stays with us all season he'll get bits of games all the time. I think a 40+ game season hopefully scoring 20+ goals would be more beneficial for a young striker than either of the other two options.

I really think games in the legs and getting used to seeing the ball hit the back of the net are key for a young forward. Could even do a 6 month deal so we ahve the option of having him back in January

[lamonti]

Rangers is a waste of time. Go to the Championship.

[Nessy76]

If there was an option for Ejaria, Kent and Solanke to go on loan at Rangers then I'd be torn on the decision.

On the plus side, they'd probably play and be able to contribute significantly for a team that would be expected to dominate possession in most games. Playing for a team that expects to win games and dominates possession against packed defences would be more akin to what Liverpool expect to play against than it would be playing for a bottom half of the Premiership team. If all 3 could play and contribute then there's a good chance that they would come back more confident players and have an increased value (if we were to sell). I do wonder what level Ejaria and Kent are at as well. Would they get significant playing time for a top tier Championship side? I think Solanke would but he'd need to be more productive in front of goal.

The negative aspect is the quality of football in Scotland. It's probably somewhere between League One at the bottom of the SPL and bottom 6 of the Premier league at the very top (i.e. Celtic). Would they progress more playing for a top 10 Championship team? Does playing a season at Rangers really push the players to improve?

Difficult choice for Klopp if this does end up an option.

I think you are missing a trick, though. They would be continuing to learn the game and being coached by a group of coaches who are intimately familiar with the Liverpool set up, and who know the players and how they need to develop. We can be confident that they will get the best experience possible from the deal.

There's no other club that can offer that, although the trade-off is that, as you say, the standard of football might not be quite as high as we could hope.

It's not like players moving from Scottish football to the Premier League face the same issues as players moving from youth to first team, though, is it? Virgil did OK.

If they can get a run of games there, it could be a great way to bridge the gap.

[Jookie]

I think you are missing a trick, though. They would be continuing to learn the game and being coached by a group of coaches who are intimately familiar with the Liverpool set up, and who know the players and how they need to develop. We can be confident that they will get the best experience possible from the deal.

There's no other club that can offer that, although the trade-off is that, as you say, the standard of football might not be quite as high as we could hope.

It's a good point this.

[Barefoot Doctor]

On the plus side, they'd probably play and be able to contribute significantly for a team that would be expected to dominate possession in most games. Playing for a team that expects to win games and dominates possession against packed defences would be more akin to what Liverpool expect to play against than it would be playing for a bottom half of the Premiership team.

In addition to that, one of the benefits of sending someone to Rangers or Celtic is the unrelenting pressure to win every single game. Glasgow is a huge football city, and the focus on Old Firm players is intense. If a player is going to succeed at Liverpool, they need to get used to life under a microscope and they start to get to grips with that in Scotland.

I just don't think you can replicate that at any team in the Championship, or in most of the Premier League. It's a trade off though, as the standard of football is inferior.

[Giono]

Would be a waste of time for Solanke.  If, and that's a big if because I think he'll be a bigger part of the first team next year, we loan out Solanke it'll be to a premier league team.  Going to the championship would be a waste of time and sending him to the SPL would be absolutely ridiculous. 

Agree. i see Solanke staying for the 1st half of the season then going out on loan to a Prem side or a CL side with an injury need so he gets match time.

[ScottishGoon]

In addition to that, one of the benefits of sending someone to Rangers or Celtic is the unrelenting pressure to win every single game. Glasgow is a huge football city, and the focus on Old Firm players is intense. If a player is going to succeed at Liverpool, they need to get used to life under a microscope and they start to get to grips with that in Scotland.

I just don't think you can replicate that at any team in the Championship, or in most of the Premier League. It's a trade off though, as the standard of football is inferior.

This is a very good point. There's players who just couldn't handle it at Rangers such as Martin Waghorn & Joey Garner who have performed well. In the Championship, but just couldn't handle the pressure at Rangers. Then you have guys like Joey Barton who totally underestimated playing in Scotland and came ill prepared. It's not as easy playing for Rangers and Celtic as people assume.

[mrantarctica]

I think if they are good enough to play in that league, then they would play regularly and benefit from playing week in week out. There have been quite a lot of players who played for the Old Firm and have then been able to step up at a higher level because they were just good players. It's not really a case of if you play at that level, then that is as good as you can be. It's only really come up because the two managers of the Old Firm have Liverpool connections, unlike Championship clubs.

For some players, I don't think loan spells will be guaranteed benefit in any case. I think it'll be more useful for the club to decide on which players they want to keep around and see if they can ship the other players because the reality is that for all the players we are talking about, they won't be getting games at LFC and aren't good enough to get into the first team. There's only a small number of those that aren't good enough right now but might be later on (e.g. Woodburn, Wilson, Brewster etc.) but the remainder will probably never be quite good enough.

[dakid]

Seems more like favours for Gerrard it anything . Can’t help but feel anyone we think has a real chance of breaking. Into the first team will be playing football for Rangers in the Scottish League.

But hasn't Klopp tended to keep the better players around the squad though. As with trent and Woodburn? Seen recently Jon Flannagan had more minutes for the first team than Woodburn last season maybe a loan would have been more beneficial as Klopp really didn't seem to trust him last season.

[BabuYagu]

This is a very good point. There's players who just couldn't handle it at Rangers such as Martin Waghorn & Joey Garner who have performed well. In the Championship, but just couldn't handle the pressure at Rangers. Then you have guys like Joey Barton who totally underestimated playing in Scotland and came ill prepared. It's not as easy playing for Rangers and Celtic as people assume.

Waghorn isn't a good example case. He has always been a shit striker really well before he moved up to Scotland. His strike rate in the Championship was garbage. Him looking like a world beater in the Scottish Championship came out of nowhere. Then he dipped down to normal shiteness again in the Scottish Premiership although he still plundered a lot of goals in the cup for them.

Code: [Select]

Season League Mins/Goal All Comps
2017/18 Eng Championship 216,44 219,94
2016/17 Scot Premiership 268,43 158,31
2015/16 Scot Championship 106,50 103,75
Likewise Garner has always looked garbage above League One level. His strike rate actually doubled when he moved from the Championship to the Scot Prem.

Code: [Select]

Season League Mins/Goal All Comps
2017/18 Eng Championship 257,20 257,20
2016/17 Scot Premiership 269,86 199,80
2015/16 Eng Championship 561,33 591,83
As for Joey Barton, I wouldn't use him as a good example case for anything. He clearly has several things missing or broken in his head.

[ScottishGoon]

Waghorn isn't a good example case. He has always been a shit striker really well before he moved up to Scotland. His strike rate in the Championship was garbage. Him looking like a world beater in the Scottish Championship came out of nowhere. Then he dipped down to normal shiteness again in the Scottish Premiership although he still plundered a lot of goals in the cup for them.

Code: [Select]

Season League Mins/Goal All Comps
2017/18 Eng Championship 216,44 219,94
2016/17 Scot Premiership 268,43 158,31
2015/16 Scot Championship 106,50 103,75
Likewise Garner has always looked garbage above League One level. His strike rate actually doubled when he moved from the Championship to the Scot Prem.

Code: [Select]

Season League Mins/Goal All Comps
2017/18 Eng Championship 257,20 257,20
2016/17 Scot Premiership 269,86 199,80
2015/16 Eng Championship 561,33 591,83
As for Joey Barton, I wouldn't use him as a good example case for anything. He clearly has several things missing or broken in his head.

My point is both Garner & Waghorn looked lost at Rangers in the SPL, but have looked a lot better at Ipswich where there isn't the same expectation. Likewise, regardless of Barton being a screwball, he was one of the best players in the Championship before he came to Rangers, arrived a bit unfit thinking he would stroll it & struggled.

In a different vein, i can name players who weren't big stars up here, weren't deemed good enough for Rangers & Celtic to sign at the time, but have gone on to forge decent careers for themselves down south the past few years, guys like Dorrans, Snodgrass, Murphy, McArthur, McArthey, Ross McCormack, Sol Bamba, Johnny Russell, Liam Lindsey, Callum Paterson etc. That's without mentioning the guys like Celtic that have went on to bigger & better things such as Wanyama & Van Dijk.

[El Lobo]

I was just about to say Waghorn was absolute garbage in the Championship too, but Babu got their first

[ScottishGoon]

I was just about to say Waghorn was absolute garbage in the Championship too, but Babu got their first

Not last season, he was Ipswich's top scorer and about 6th overall. Actually tops the table of goals & assists combined.

Suggests that despite his problems he improved at Rangers then?!

[BabuYagu]

Not last season, he was Ipswich's top scorer and about 6th overall. Actually tops the table of goals & assists combined.

Suggests that despite his problems he improved at Rangers then?!

As shown above for both Garner and Waghorn, the actual numbers per 90 didn't change much. The numbers at Rangers were low compared to others in the team. The same numbers at Ipswich were high because he was playing in a Mick McCarthy team that played some of the worst football I had the misfortune to see and every goal was seen as a miracle equal to turning water into wine.

As for the rest of your post, I am not sure what the point is that you are trying to make? That it's possible for players to move from Scottish football to elsewhere and perform well? Sure, nobody is arguing otherwise. What I would argue is that for attacking players who put up big numbers in the Scottish league, it appears easier for them to do so there and they tend to fail to replicate those numbers elsewhere.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

As shown above for both Garner and Waghorn, the actual numbers per 90 didn't change much. The numbers at Rangers were low compared to others in the team. The same numbers at Ipswich were high because he was playing in a Mick McCarthy team that played some of the worst football I had the misfortune to see and every goal was seen as a miracle equal to turning water into wine.

I went to a Boxing Day game at Portman Road a couple of years back. They were terrible - it properly had to be seen to believed.

I remember their first shot of any kind (and pretty much their first attacking moment of any substance) being sliced a good 10 yards high and wide. It prompted a mass 'goal' celebration in the whole end which was the most enjoyable part of the whole game. The 'celebrations' went on for a good minute or so as the slightly bemused players got on with the game. The BBC report suggests that this shot was 64 minutes into the game.

[BabuYagu]

I went to a Boxing Day game at Portman Road a couple of years back. They were terrible - it properly had to be seen to believed.

I remember their first shot of any kind (and pretty much their first attacking moment of any substance) being sliced a good 10 yards high and wide. It prompted a mass 'goal' celebration in the whole end which was the most enjoyable part of the whole game. The 'celebrations' went on for a good minute or so as the slightly bemused players got on with the game. The BBC report suggests that this shot was 64 minutes into the game.

I remember looking at the numbers behind Ipswich play under McCarthy and the passing numbers in particular were just horrific. By a mile the worst in the league. Amazed they stayed up in 2016/17. They created nothing - just played for yardage and set pieces pretty much.

So far removed from the side I used to go and watch regularly from the late 90's. The stuff they played under Burley in particular was great. All those play off runs before finally getting promotion. Some great battles amongst them.

[Nessy76]

Ejaria has signed a new contract and joins Rangers on loan.

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/304170-ovie-ejaria-liverpool-fc-deal-loan-rangers

[sms1986]

Ejaria has signed a new contract and joins Rangers on loan.

Good luck to him!

[phil236849]

Will be interesting to see how Ejaria settles at Rangers.  Hopefully he has a touch of quality beyond their existing midfielders - Gerrard is obviously freshening up that area having just signed Scott Arfield.  He was linked to bids for others on loan - was it Solanke and Wilson or was it Woodburn.  Would have thought as Woodburn is playing deeper there would be a risk he would be in competition with Ovie.  The question is, what is the best we can expect from a season at Rangers?  Instinct tells me that at the end of that the best would be high Championship low Premier Level standard.  Even Van Dijk took a while before the big boys thought he was ready for them.  Hopefully that is why we are reporting long term deals for the likes of Woodburn, Wilson and Ejaria, recognising that it may take a few years of continual progression before we can decide if they can reach the level of regular first team football for us.

[ANFIELDGATES]

Can't believe klopp sanctioned this nonsense.Its a terrible league and won't do any of our loanees good in the long term.Would be better off in the championship for a season or two to develop at a far superior level than the Spl....

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

Can't believe klopp sanctioned this nonsense.Its a terrible league and won't do any of our loanees good in the long term.Would be better off in the championship for a season or two to develop at a far superior level than the Spl....

Yet he seemingly has sanctioned this...Maybe he has spoken with Gerrard about who he aims to play/develop Ejaria and is happy with the plan?

[Nessy76]

Will be interesting to see how Ejaria settles at Rangers.  Hopefully he has a touch of quality beyond their existing midfielders - Gerrard is obviously freshening up that area having just signed Scott Arfield.  He was linked to bids for others on loan - was it Solanke and Wilson or was it Woodburn.  Would have thought as Woodburn is playing deeper there would be a risk he would be in competition with Ovie.  The question is, what is the best we can expect from a season at Rangers?  Instinct tells me that at the end of that the best would be high Championship low Premier Level standard.  Even Van Dijk took a while before the big boys thought he was ready for them.  Hopefully that is why we are reporting long term deals for the likes of Woodburn, Wilson and Ejaria, recognising that it may take a few years of continual progression before we can decide if they can reach the level of regular first team football for us.

For the time being, I think it's best we just let him go and play and see how he gets on. The chances of any of them making it here in the long term are always tiny, but playing for a high profile club could open doors for him. Regular games, at whatever level, so long as it is competitive football, (and whatever you say about Scottish football it is definitely that!) will allow him to show exactly how good he is, where he needs to improve, and demonstrate a lot about his character.

I still maintain that the jump from the U23s to the SPL is far bigger than from SPL to Premier League. This time next year we'll hopefully have a clearer idea of whether he can do both.

Don't think he'll be the only one to go up there, either. In many ways it would be a perfect move for Solanke, get a run of games and a shed load of goals for a team that doesn't really have a great striker in place. Hard to see him get as much time here next season as we're almost certain to sign a striker of some description.

Woodburn would probably be competing directly with Ejaria, so yeah, that's not ideal. Depends what system Stevie plans to use up there, but in any case putting two youngsters in the AM roles together might not be wise. On the other hand, I think they know one another well and have linked up effectively for Liverpool at various levels, haven't they?

[Nessy76]

Yet he seemingly has sanctioned this...Maybe he has spoken with Gerrard about who he aims to play/develop Ejaria and is happy with the plan?

Maybe Klopp even knows a bit more about the game than someone barred from making new topics on RAWK? Weird thought, sure.

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

Maybe Klopp even knows a bit more about the game than someone barred from making new topics on RAWK? Weird thought, sure.

Pffft! Common sense! 

[RyanBabel19]

Love Ejarias playstyle and was really impressed with him in the previous pre season games he got

Good luck to him there, he's one of the young liverpool players I really hope makes it with us

[ANFIELDGATES]

Maybe Klopp even knows a bit more about the game than someone barred from making new topics on RAWK? Weird thought, sure.

Ouch!!!...Well I was a newbie so didn't know...anyways,Are we now not allowed to question Jurgen on anything as we ,eh, don't know as much as him?My point is what benefit is it to any of our more promising players to be playing in the Spl?It's an awful league whereas playing for one of  the championship sides would be far more beneficial and would be a real test of a players ability and drive.

[Dim Glas]

Ouch!!!...Well I was a newbie so didn't know...anyways,Are we now not allowed to question Jurgen on anything as we ,eh, don't know as much as him?My point is what benefit is it to any of our more promising players to be playing in the Spl?It's an awful league whereas playing for one of  the championship sides would be far more beneficial and would be a real test of a players ability and drive.

maybe he's willing to make a compromise, and likes the idea of Ejaria having a year working with Steven Gerrard on a daily basis, so despite the crapness of the league, he'll get a good education and will get to play a lot.  It's also tough to get good Championship loans, loads don't work out.

[dotheoffski]

Can't believe klopp sanctioned this nonsense.Its a terrible league and won't do any of our loanees good in the long term.Would be better off in the championship for a season or two to develop at a far superior level than the Spl....

Yet Van Dijk had 2 years there and did not turn out to bad when he moved to Southampton.

[ANFIELDGATES]

maybe he's willing to make a compromise, and likes the idea of Ejaria having a year working with Steven Gerrard on a daily basis, so despite the crapness of the league, he'll get a good education and will get to play a lot.  It's also tough to get good Championship loans, loads don't work out.

True and agree that working with Gerrard will obviously benefit him,i just dont rate the league whatsoever and would prefer to see him in a better league but yeah i can see your point.

[ANFIELDGATES]

Yet Van Dijk had 2 years there and did not turn out to bad when he moved to Southampton.

Lots of very good players play there and get spotted and join the Prem or other leagues but the standard of football isnt great.

[Dim Glas]

True and agree that working with Gerrard will obviously benefit him,i just dont rate the league whatsoever and would prefer to see him in a better league but yeah i can see your point.

I feel the same as you regards that league, but so long as he plays a lot, it should help him regardless, lots of playing time, hopefully does well, plays in front of decent crowds too.  It really is tough to get good loans though, always a risk involved but one thing with this, is that Gerrard surely knows what Ejaria can add to the team, so had a a clear plan for him.

[SP]

Ouch!!!...Well I was a newbie so didn't know...anyways,Are we now not allowed to question Jurgen on anything as we ,eh, don't know as much as him?My point is what benefit is it to any of our more promising players to be playing in the Spl?It's an awful league whereas playing for one of  the championship sides would be far more beneficial and would be a real test of a players ability and drive.

He would play in front of massive crowds for a club expected to win every game. Whilst some of the football in the league is not all that, the pressure at Rangers is far closer to playing for us than playing in the Championship. There is a different level of media profile. This could tell us a lot about his mental strength.

[Nessy76]

Ouch!!!...Well I was a newbie so didn't know...anyways,Are we now not allowed to question Jurgen on anything as we ,eh, don't know as much as him?My point is what benefit is it to any of our more promising players to be playing in the Spl?It's an awful league whereas playing for one of  the championship sides would be far more beneficial and would be a real test of a players ability and drive.

There's a big old gap between questions and "can't believe he sanctioned this nonsense", I'm sure you agree.
Ejaria will have to play to his best in Scotland to make an impact on that team.
He is working with a manager who has just moved from working at our Academy, knows his game, knows what Klopp needs and wants, and who the club can trust to give him a chance and not destroy him with idiotic and antiquated training practices.
It's really win win. Just because the SPL is not as sexy as the Championship, really isn't important.

[Koparoo]

It's also not just working with Gerrard though, virtually his whole support team of trainers and fitness coaches are ex-LFC youth staff - so Ejaria (and others) will know and be known to the key staff.

Plus if Ovie's joined by other LFC teammates, who knows, we might finally get a 'lite-version' of our (long-desired) B Team. Unfortunately just now we can only loan 3(?) at a time... Perhaps we might see more sales with buy-backs to Rangers (now that we've stacked the coaching ranks with 'our' people)?

And the pressure to perform is fairly unrelenting in Glasgow - and he will also be playing in the Europa Cup!! Rangers may go on a decent run - don't bet against Stevie in European competition!

[phil236849]

I

Unfortunately just now we can only loan 3(?) at a time... Perhaps we might see more sales with buy-backs to Rangers (now that we've stacked the coaching ranks with 'our' people)?

What, only 3at a time to Rangers, or more generally?

How would chelsea cope?

[Koparoo]

What, only 3at a time to Rangers, or more generally?

How would chelsea cope?

no - I was wrong. Just did a quick check and Rangers (and other SPFL teams) can register up to 5 players in a season on loan from within Scotland (but only have 4 at at the club at one time, one of which must be under 21 years).

However, in the SPFL it appears that there’s no limit on international loans (ie from LFC as we hold our players registration) - so technically, we could just loan them the whole U23s!!

[Chelsea just use the scatter-gun approach across various leagues...]

[dudleyred]

no - I was wrong. Just did a quick check and Rangers (and other SPFL teams) can register up to 5 players in a season on loan from within Scotland (but only have 4 at at the club at one time, one of which must be under 21 years).

However, in the SPFL it appears that there’s no limit on international loans (ie from LFC as we hold our players registration) - so technically, we could just loan them the whole U23s!!

That’s very interesting. I think Rangers is a great place for our youngsters for all reasons already stated. Hopefully see some more there

[rocco]

Allan – Loan spell ended In April anybody know what the situation is with him Now regards work permit