Author Topic: The Labour Party (*)  (Read 878775 times)

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,642
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2016, 07:42:38 pm »
Then it isn't the Labour Party.  It's no longer a political party at all.

The whole reason for political parties is too effect change through government, not to stand around going 'oh isn't this awful'.  This applies equally to the left and the right.

Get into government first, figure out what to do later.

Offline SP

  • Thor ain't got shit on this dude! Alpheus. SPoogle. The Equusfluminis Of RAWK. Straight in at the deep end with a tube of Vagisil. Needs to get a half-life. Needs a damned good de-frag.
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 36,042
  • .
  • Super Title: Southern Pansy
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2016, 07:51:39 pm »
Get into government first, figure out what to do later.

Sounds like the Leave campaign.

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,642
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2016, 08:09:52 pm »
Sounds like the Leave campaign.

Seems to work. I am going to campaign with a promise of building the actual gates to heaven and stick it on a van. Reckon thats enough to win me Barking.

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

  • FUCK THE POLICE - NWA
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 40,806
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2016, 08:23:35 pm »
Really whats happened in the USA Election and the Democratic Party is the same that is happening in the Labour party.

The grass roots and members get behind their man huge crowds turn up and they "Feel the Bern" .

But the elites of the party think they know better and fix it for their person to win and it more of the same when the members want change.

The election comes and the members are so disillusioned a lot don't even vote.

And by default the other party wins.

With 100,000s of new members joining Labour they should realise there might be something going on outside their political bubble.

The Labour PLC should learn from this but they won't.
there are many differences, for one trump was/is everywhere on the news for the last 18 months whereas Corbyn can't be arsed with getting on TV so trump was able to get his message across to those outside his fanclub whereas Corbyn only is bothered about his fan club.

Plus one is on the left and the other is on the right, and the world is shifting right at the moment. Plus with trump he has been well known for years and has some successes in his past, Corbyn was an unknown 18 months ago and doesn't have the successes that trump has,

Corbyn is more similar sanders in the respect he can get some energised but nowhere near enough, and sanders has an element of competency that Corbyn does not so he'd just be a bigger loser

Offline Bobsackamano

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,458
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2016, 10:08:10 pm »
Trump won the nomination of the Republicans so had a solid base to build from, it's after all a much clearer 2 party system than ours. He then appealed to many centrists/left wingers who are down on their luck with the promise to roll back globalism, halt immigration and so preserve the jobs remaining and create more for people who already live there. So he had the Republican base and bolted on some from the other side to tip him home.

Be good to hear from Corbyn and his camp what their cunning plan is, for the life of me i can't see one??

Offline TravisBickle

  • KnowsVotersAreFickle!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,808
  • RAWK n' Roll
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2016, 10:42:05 pm »
One of the key trends in the American election was former Obama voters switching to Trump rather than continuing to support the Democrats. I haven't looked at the data in too much detail yet but several good, trustworthy commentators have said this is particularly prominent in plenty of blue collar communities.

 There's a real parallel there with Labour and UKIP/Brexit. Working class voters flocked to UKIP at the last election, then chose to ignore Labour's urges to stay in the EU. It isn't just in Britain and America that this is happening - in France and Denmark, the perception that social democratic parties have abandoned the people they exist to represent is rising and rising with the hard and populist right benefitting from their disillusionment. It isn't just about poor, uninspiring leaders such as Miliband and Corbyn.

 As progressives and leftists, we can't preen and shout about racism. We can't sit here insisting how right we are and how, if they were just a bit more educated and right on, everyone else would vote and think the way we do. Now is a time for listening. Because I think that listening is something we haven't done enough of.

 We should never ape UKIP's rhetoric and start indulging in nudge nudge wink wink xenophobia. That would be a complete betrayal of everything the wider leftist movement believes in. But there *are* concerns about immigration, there is a feeling that we on the left are patronising and there is a widespread perception that too many people have been ignored for too long.

 The party needs to reinvent itself as it did after the 1983 election. Speak to people. Listen to them. Build a coalition and make compromises. Social democracy is in full blown crisis and the values which the vast majority of us hold dear are under all our assault like I've never seen in my lifetime - I don't pretend to know how to turn this around but it's clear that we need to change if the politics we want to see is going to get a fair hearing at the ballot box.

 Sadly I don't think change is something the Labour Party is particularly interested in right now.
"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea and he conquered the bloody world! And that's what I wanted; for Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

Offline Devon Red

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,639
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2016, 10:42:57 pm »
Really whats happened in the USA Election and the Democratic Party is the same that is happening in the Labour party.

The grass roots and members get behind their man huge crowds turn up and they "Feel the Bern" .

But the elites of the party think they know better and fix it for their person to win and it more of the same when the members want change.

The election comes and the members are so disillusioned a lot don't even vote.

And by default the other party wins.

With 100,000s of new members joining Labour they should realise there might be something going on outside their political bubble.

The Labour PLC should learn from this but they won't.

Sanders lost the party vote (by several million) but has good favorability ratings with the wider electorate. Corbyn won the party vote but has terrible favorability ratings with the wider electorate. So not really comparable at all.

The only apt comparison I can see is that a lot of Democrats had a mental block where the Clinton name was concerned and just couldn't see past her as their candidate, in spite of her obvious flaws and unpopularity. Unfortunately a lot of the Labour membership can't seem to see past Corbyn at the moment, in spite of this obvious flaws and unpopularity.

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

  • FUCK THE POLICE - NWA
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 40,806
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2016, 12:30:07 am »
Sanders lost the party vote (by several million) but has good favorability ratings with the wider electorate. Corbyn won the party vote but has terrible favorability ratings with the wider electorate. So not really comparable at all.

The only apt comparison I can see is that a lot of Democrats had a mental block where the Clinton name was concerned and just couldn't see past her as their candidate, in spite of her obvious flaws and unpopularity. Unfortunately a lot of the Labour membership can't seem to see past Corbyn at the moment, in spite of this obvious flaws and unpopularity.
also may has very high popularity ratings, both Clinton and trump were the two least popular candidates

One of the key trends in the American election was former Obama voters switching to Trump rather than continuing to support the Democrats. I haven't looked at the data in too much detail yet but several good, trustworthy commentators have said this is particularly prominent in plenty of blue collar communities.
extra 4m voters for the third parties as well - Hillary lost 6m voters whereas trump won the same number roughly as Romney last time and she did a shit job with some of the groups Obama did well with (which is probably why he did so many rallies with her), would say people not bothering to vote for Hillary who did for Obama and those who went for other parties/wrote in Harambe did her in as let's be frank she's pretty uninspiring, much like a certain Labour Party leader

Online Dr. Beaker

  • Veo, to his mates. Shares 50% of his DNA with a banana. Would dearly love to strangle Frankengoose. Lo! Be he not ye Messiah, verily be he a child of questionable conduct in the eyes of Ye Holy Border Guards.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,742
  • I... think I am, therefore...I....maybe.
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2016, 11:34:26 am »
The thing about the vast majority of people in this country (and the world?) is that they aren't interested in politics. They don't think in terms of left and right – I wouldn't be surprised if most of them couldn't even tell you which parties are on the left and which are on the right. They just think in terms of, 'who is saying the kind of fings I agree with'. If they are so called traditional Labour voters and they suddenly can't comprehend or believe anything that Labour are saying, or are not feeling that Labour have delivered, they don't think to themselves, 'Hmmm, which party of the left shall I vote for now', they seemingly just switch over to that bloke who's always in the pub and hates forringers. In fact it seems to be a matter of 'who seems to be the least like a politician'.

This is the problem. Politicians of every shade are perceived as 'the problem'. Whether it's Bush, Cameron, or more disappointingly, Blair or Hillary, people seem so desperate to keep their voracious snouts away from the trough that they will even try someone like Trump. There is that much dosh to be had it's nigh on impossible to imagine anyone resisting it.

Corbyn's done his best and has dragged Labour to the left more than I thought he could, but it doesn't seem to have washed with the general public. He doesn't really talk the language of the people, doesn't seem to have the razor sharp wit that could get him out of a few scrapes, and the PLP make his task impossible anyway.

Has Labour got anyone who can connect. That soldier bloke I suppose. Also that Keir Starmer doesn't seem to have had enough time in politics to have become a complete twat yet, maybe he could do a job. Maybe we need a celebrity, Ricky Tomlinson?

That still leaves Corbo there for now though doesn't it. In America, I'm sure they will find some mentally ill Mexican with a smoking gun in his hand one of these days – our secret service are probably following Corbo around with a defibrillator.

Alan Sugar, come on down.
NAKED BOOBERY

Rile-Me costed L. Nee-Naw "The Child" Torrence the first jack the hat-trick since Eon Rush vs Accursed Toffos, many moons passed. Nee-Naw he could have done a concreted his palace in the pantyhose off the LibPole Gods...was not was for the invented intervention of Rile-Me whistler.

Offline Mutton Geoff

  • 'The Invigilator'
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,663
  • Life is a journey, not a destination.
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2016, 07:27:21 pm »
Well seems to me if you want a better Labour party moaning about it in a football forum aint going to do anything at all,  why not take an active interest in your local party do the leg work if you think groups like momentum is taking over the party get into grass roots politics and take it back,

if you think Corbyn is wrong or the message is wrong seek to change it democratically from within.

 Private Fraser dogma will achieve nothing,

Clinton lost because of voter inertia in the democrats and Clinton's complacency ,

Labour is not doing well because too many people are also doing nothing about getting the right image across to the electorate the politicians would rather take pot shots at each other than have the balls to get together to fight the government. They perpetrate the splits in the party rather than come together to appear like a solid group. The Tories are just as split on many major issues but they are disciplined enough to keep it in the shadows.



A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline SP

  • Thor ain't got shit on this dude! Alpheus. SPoogle. The Equusfluminis Of RAWK. Straight in at the deep end with a tube of Vagisil. Needs to get a half-life. Needs a damned good de-frag.
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 36,042
  • .
  • Super Title: Southern Pansy
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2016, 07:59:13 pm »
Well seems to me if you want a better Labour party moaning about it in a football forum aint going to do anything at all,  why not take an active interest in your local party do the leg work if you think groups like momentum is taking over the party get into grass roots politics and take it back,

if you think Corbyn is wrong or the message is wrong seek to change it democratically from within.

 Private Fraser dogma will achieve nothing,

Clinton lost because of voter inertia in the democrats and Clinton's complacency ,

Labour is not doing well because too many people are also doing nothing about getting the right image across to the electorate the politicians would rather take pot shots at each other than have the balls to get together to fight the government. They perpetrate the splits in the party rather than come together to appear like a solid group. The Tories are just as split on many major issues but they are disciplined enough to keep it in the shadows.

Offline zero zero

  • Karma's a bitch. Innit.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,475
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2016, 08:48:18 pm »
What a surprise. Avoiding the obvious irony of posting about it on a football from, we find that Labour doing badly has nothing to do with Corbyn.

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,642
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2016, 08:52:11 pm »
Well seems to me if you want a better Labour party moaning about it in a football forum aint going to do anything at all,  why not take an active interest in your local party do the leg work if you think groups like momentum is taking over the party get into grass roots politics and take it back,

if you think Corbyn is wrong or the message is wrong seek to change it democratically from within.

 Private Fraser dogma will achieve nothing,

Clinton lost because of voter inertia in the democrats and Clinton's complacency ,

Labour is not doing well because too many people are also doing nothing about getting the right image across to the electorate the politicians would rather take pot shots at each other than have the balls to get together to fight the government. They perpetrate the splits in the party rather than come together to appear like a solid group. The Tories are just as split on many major issues but they are disciplined enough to keep it in the shadows.





To be honest with the EU ref and Trump i am even more likely to stand at the back, pick up the cheque and go home. Society will sort itself out and go the direction it wants to go.

Offline OOS

  • Jordan Henderson fanclub member #4
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,641
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2016, 09:15:33 pm »
Sanders lost the party vote (by several million) but has good favorability ratings with the wider electorate. Corbyn won the party vote but has terrible favorability ratings with the wider electorate. So not really comparable at all.

The only apt comparison I can see is that a lot of Democrats had a mental block where the Clinton name was concerned and just couldn't see past her as their candidate, in spite of her obvious flaws and unpopularity. Unfortunately a lot of the Labour membership can't seem to see past Corbyn at the moment, in spite of this obvious flaws and unpopularity.

Sanders lost because he did not win the black and minorities vote, they rejected him in massive margins. I mean hugeeeeee margins. Black and minorities voters are a big part in Dems base, and having Sanders as nomination would have made Trumps win larger. You can't compare US Dem politics to here.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 09:20:31 pm by OOS »
"I think the most important thing about music is the sense of escape." - Thom Yorke

Online Yorkykopite

  • Misses Danny Boy with a passion. Phil's Official Biographer, dontcherknow...it's all true. Honestly.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,219
  • The first five yards........
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2016, 09:39:19 pm »
I see the Corbyn fans are already blaming everyone else for his wretched performance. Your party now Geoff, you go out and do some leg work for a change.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline Renato

  • One Moura One Cup
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,487
  • allez les rouges
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2016, 10:13:31 pm »
Sanders lost because he did not win the black and minorities vote, they rejected him in massive margins. I mean hugeeeeee margins. Black and minorities voters are a big part in Dems base, and having Sanders as nomination would have made Trumps win larger. You can't compare US Dem politics to here.

yeah you can it's a similar situation, like Labour the US Democrats sold out to Third Way economics in the 90s and lost the working class. And like Labour they're now having to face down a wave of right-wing populism that their neoliberalism helped create. And like Labour the old guard in their party bizarrely insist on responding to the rise of right-wing populism with more Third Way neoliberalism.

Clinton's capturing of the minority vote by such a large margin has far more to do with her campaign rhetoric and the fact that minorities live disproportionately in cities, which a brief glance at the electoral map will tell you are often the only places Democrats decisively win anymore. Sanders rejected the conventional identity-driven approach for a class-focused one (and rightfully so), and in the process attracted the rural working class vote which has been decisively Republican since the 60s. Sanders performed strongest in the states in which Clinton conceded ground to Trump in the general election, pretty much every state she won was going to be Democrat regardless of who was on the ticket. Sanders would have had that cross-over appeal in the Rust Belt and could easily have won.

Offline armchair-fan

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,252
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2016, 10:15:38 pm »
Well seems to me if you want a better Labour party moaning about it in a football forum aint going to do anything at all,  why not take an active interest in your local party do the leg work if you think groups like momentum is taking over the party get into grass roots politics and take it back,

Don't much fancy going out in the cold and handing out leaflets on behalf of Corbyn, I'm afraid.  Or indeed sitting in meetings with people liable to be discussing how Hezbollah can fight back against the Zionists and how we should build some nuclear subs for the jobs, but don't put any of the nasty missiles on them.

Offline Sangria

  • In trying to be right ends up wrong without fail
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,075
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2016, 10:16:58 pm »
yeah you can it's a similar situation, like Labour the US Democrats sold out to Third Way economics in the 90s and lost the working class. And like Labour they're now having to face down a wave of right-wing populism that their neoliberalism helped create. And like Labour the old guard in their party bizarrely insist on responding to the rise of right-wing populism with more Third Way neoliberalism.

Clinton's capturing of the minority vote by such a large margin has far more to do with her campaign rhetoric and the fact that minorities live disproportionately in cities, which a brief glance at the electoral map will tell you are often the only places Democrats decisively win anymore. Sanders rejected the conventional identity-driven approach for a class-focused one (and rightfully so), and in the process attracted the rural working class vote which has been decisively Republican since the 60s. Sanders performed strongest in the states in which Clinton conceded ground to Trump in the general election, pretty much every state she won was going to be Democrat regardless of who was on the ticket. Sanders would have had that cross-over appeal in the Rust Belt and could easily have won.

The left wing has complete control of all parts of the Labour party. The right and centre of the party, what you call "neoliberals", are irrelevant now. All the power is in the hands of the Labour left. What they achieve or fail to achieve with it is their own responsibility. Nobody else's.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline armchair-fan

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,252
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2016, 10:18:43 pm »
yeah you can it's a similar situation, like Labour the US Democrats sold out to Third Way economics in the 90s and lost the working class. And like Labour they're now having to face down a wave of right-wing populism that their neoliberalism helped create. And like Labour the old guard in their party bizarrely insist on responding to the rise of right-wing populism with more Third Way neoliberalism.

If you think Labour have responded with Third Way neoliberalism, I don't think you've been very focused these past 18 months.

Offline Renato

  • One Moura One Cup
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,487
  • allez les rouges
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2016, 10:32:10 pm »
The left wing has complete control of all parts of the Labour party. The right and centre of the party, what you call "neoliberals", are irrelevant now. All the power is in the hands of the Labour left. What they achieve or fail to achieve with it is their own responsibility. Nobody else's.

it's disingenuous to say this since clearly large parts of the PLP have no time for Corbyn and have obviously already tried to overthrow him, it's not as if the centrists have just gracefully stepped aside and accepted obsolescence.

Offline Sangria

  • In trying to be right ends up wrong without fail
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,075
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2016, 10:50:55 pm »
it's disingenuous to say this since clearly large parts of the PLP have no time for Corbyn and have obviously already tried to overthrow him, it's not as if the centrists have just gracefully stepped aside and accepted obsolescence.

Corbyn's supporters have control of the constituency parties, among other things (like the NEC). If they so wish, they can deselect disobedient Labour MPs, and run approved Labour candidates against them in the next election. It's all within their power. They have all the power within the Labour party. The Labour party is entirely theirs.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline zero zero

  • Karma's a bitch. Innit.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,475
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2016, 10:53:22 pm »
Clinton's capturing of the minority vote by such a large margin has far more to do with her campaign rhetoric and the fact that minorities live disproportionately in cities, which a brief glance at the electoral map will tell you are often the only places Democrats decisively win anymore. Sanders rejected the conventional identity-driven approach for a class-focused one (and rightfully so), and in the process attracted the rural working class vote which has been decisively Republican since the 60s. Sanders performed strongest in the states in which Clinton conceded ground to Trump in the general election, pretty much every state she won was going to be Democrat regardless of who was on the ticket. Sanders would have had that cross-over appeal in the Rust Belt and could easily have won.
Who gives a fuck? Can you stick this in the relevant thread. Cheers.

Offline filopastry

  • seldom posts but often delivers
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,756
  • Let me tell you a story.........
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2016, 08:42:27 am »
Corbyn's supporters have control of the constituency parties, among other things (like the NEC). If they so wish, they can deselect disobedient Labour MPs, and run approved Labour candidates against them in the next election. It's all within their power. They have all the power within the Labour party. The Labour party is entirely theirs.

It really is, the PLP can rumble a bit but they know full well there is little they can do after the last leadership election.

The party is controlled by the Corbyn wing, now it needs to show the inclination to do something with that authority, beyond consolidate power over the party further.

Well seems to me if you want a better Labour party moaning about it in a football forum aint going to do anything at all,  why not take an active interest in your local party do the leg work if you think groups like momentum is taking over the party get into grass roots politics and take it back,

if you think Corbyn is wrong or the message is wrong seek to change it democratically from within.

 Private Fraser dogma will achieve nothing,

Clinton lost because of voter inertia in the democrats and Clinton's complacency ,

Labour is not doing well because too many people are also doing nothing about getting the right image across to the electorate the politicians would rather take pot shots at each other than have the balls to get together to fight the government. They perpetrate the splits in the party rather than come together to appear like a solid group. The Tories are just as split on many major issues but they are disciplined enough to keep it in the shadows.





Unlike most in the Labour party I don't think Corbyn and McDonnell are positive forces for  change, I don't agree with them on a fair number of policy positions, I don't trust them on the economy and I find some of their historic attitudes towards terrorist groups impossible to justify, so I would have thought I would be the last kind of person anyone would want out canvassing for Labour at present.

Labour under Corbyn has now mobilised a massive membership, I would have thought it would pretty easy to use them to build up an effective grassroots campaign, without having to call on those who clearly don't agree with the direction the party is taking.

I honestly don't care enough anymore, a clear majority of the party membership and leader seemingly doesn't give a shit about becoming a serious political party that can get into power, so I don't see why I should let it piss me off and waste much more time on worrying about it.

To put it another way, I'm pissed about the direction the country is taking but I no longer think Labour is likely to be part of the solution, in some ways its part of the problem, by hoovering up "progressive" voters in a party that isn't likely to gain power under FPTP it basically consolidates Tory power. I might feel differently if I had a good local Labour MP to get behind, but no prospect of that where I live unfortunately.

As a tiny first step, Labour needs to actually look like a party that is interested in winning power.

That will mean engaging with the media rather than running scared from them hoping that social and new media is enough to set the agenda and change minds.

It will also mean listening to voters, conversing with them rather than preaching and demonising, and also in some cases probably moderating policy positions where voters aren't easily persuadable of the rightness of the cause, I don't know whether the party actually has that flexibility anymore.

An obvious example is immigration, while Labour can certainly justify being more progressive than other parties on the issue, I don't see that coming out at present and saying that we are fine with unlimited immigration is going to acceptable to most of the county in its present mood, we need to at least appear to be listening to the concerns around that matter, and taking some kind of steps to address them and to talk openly about the issue.

Too often we seem happy to assume that it doesn't matter if our policy positions are unpopular as voters will eventually be educated to see their inherent rightness, while at the same time taking very little time to engage with the old media to actually get that message out, its a disastrous approach all round.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 10:40:15 am by filopastry »

Online TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 93,676
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2016, 09:08:42 am »
Well...

The way back includes talking to people.

Communicating with those who have left to vote Tory or UKIP.
They can t be patronised, demonised or stigmatised, or they won't come back.

A broad and inclusive approach, where people are talked to and listened to, and ideas and problems properly discussed.  You have to go to them, addresss them in the media they consume.  Now is not the time for pious nonsense of ignoring some media because you don't like them... this is the way the future will be lost.
The party needs charisma, drive and leadership to help do this, and it needs to understand that some policies they may want are entirely self destructive.

The voters the party has lost are the voters it was set up to serve. Listening to them and addressing their concerns should come first.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Online Dr. Beaker

  • Veo, to his mates. Shares 50% of his DNA with a banana. Would dearly love to strangle Frankengoose. Lo! Be he not ye Messiah, verily be he a child of questionable conduct in the eyes of Ye Holy Border Guards.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,742
  • I... think I am, therefore...I....maybe.
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2016, 10:14:48 am »
Ol Jezzer is being forced into playing the long game (deselections) because of the PLP's intransigence (or steadfastness, depending on your stance), but if he were to step aside (with McDonnell and Abbott), as an alternative way to break the logjam, what would be the consequence?

I've always presumed he would not do this (and in all probability he won't), as the next leader would no doubt change the procedures for future leadership elections and thereby deny power to the likes of Corbyn ever again, and he would thereby have been guilty of the most heinous treachery. However the next leader would surely be very reluctant to antagonise his new red army of young supporters to the point of mutiny, and would at least have to 'talk a good fight' as far as they were concerned. If such a beast exists would it be possible for him/her to bring together the Yorkies and Geoffs of the party or is it beyond that now?

All very hypothetical of course, but I'd just like to think that it wasn't impossible. I don't think all Corbynites are truly 'Corbynites'. I would imagine they are just lefties - Corbyn just happens to have been the unlucky bastard whose turn it was.

Would it be possible for Corbyn to end up being a 'Bizarro World' Kinnock for some future 'Bizarro World' Blair?

I can't personally see them stepping aside meself, like. But then I can't really see anyone with that early Kinnocklike pugnacity and conviction. If there was someone though, and electoral oblivion was staring them in the face, could the party rescue itself?

Answers please on the back of a self addressed valium label.

I personally think we'll end up with a massive Blairite 'centre' party comprised of the majority of the PLP and the non swivel-eyed tories – and it may come quicker than I originally thought.

Ah well enough brainfarts for one day - I love the smell of methane in the morning.
NAKED BOOBERY

Rile-Me costed L. Nee-Naw "The Child" Torrence the first jack the hat-trick since Eon Rush vs Accursed Toffos, many moons passed. Nee-Naw he could have done a concreted his palace in the pantyhose off the LibPole Gods...was not was for the invented intervention of Rile-Me whistler.

Offline filopastry

  • seldom posts but often delivers
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,756
  • Let me tell you a story.........
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2016, 11:34:47 am »
Ol Jezzer is being forced into playing the long game (deselections) because of the PLP's intransigence (or steadfastness, depending on your stance), but if he were to step aside (with McDonnell and Abbott), as an alternative way to break the logjam, what would be the consequence?

I've always presumed he would not do this (and in all probability he won't), as the next leader would no doubt change the procedures for future leadership elections and thereby deny power to the likes of Corbyn ever again, and he would thereby have been guilty of the most heinous treachery. However the next leader would surely be very reluctant to antagonise his new red army of young supporters to the point of mutiny, and would at least have to 'talk a good fight' as far as they were concerned. If such a beast exists would it be possible for him/her to bring together the Yorkies and Geoffs of the party or is it beyond that now?

All very hypothetical of course, but I'd just like to think that it wasn't impossible. I don't think all Corbynites are truly 'Corbynites'. I would imagine they are just lefties - Corbyn just happens to have been the unlucky bastard whose turn it was.

Would it be possible for Corbyn to end up being a 'Bizarro World' Kinnock for some future 'Bizarro World' Blair?

I can't personally see them stepping aside meself, like. But then I can't really see anyone with that early Kinnocklike pugnacity and conviction. If there was someone though, and electoral oblivion was staring them in the face, could the party rescue itself?

Answers please on the back of a self addressed valium label.

I personally think we'll end up with a massive Blairite 'centre' party comprised of the majority of the PLP and the non swivel-eyed tories – and it may come quicker than I originally thought.

Ah well enough brainfarts for one day - I love the smell of methane in the morning.

I don't really see an easy answer either, if Corbyn himself stood down I think we would be more likely to see someone like McDonnell as the next leader than anything else.

I'm not convinced that even a bad loss in the next GE would see a significant change in direction of the party, the membership has changed entirely over the last few years, and I don't think most new members have much interest in seeing a more centrist Labour party which they would see as betraying its principles.

Ultimately though nature abhors a vacuum, if Labour continues to not look like a credible opposition for too long, the political order will be shaken up and it will face new challenges from other parties.

Both Labour and the Conservatives are pretty fortunate that the LibDems have been so weakened by the coalition years and have pretty anonymous leadership at present, as otherwise both would be under serious pressure from a more centrist party at present. In areas like London there are a fair few business friendly, socially liberal voters around who don't feel like they are being represented by either main party at present. That being said the centre ground in British politics is probably smaller than its been for a while, due to our lurch towards nationalism/populism

Offline Robinred

  • Wanted for burglary.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,626
  • Red since '64
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2016, 11:38:35 am »
[snip]

Pretty much my feelings - saves me writing at length. Apropos of which, this is apposite:

https://www.facebook.com/JonathanPieReporter/videos/1044777035645189/
"The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology...as long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth." Mikhail Bakunin

Offline Beard

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 157
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2016, 11:43:18 am »
Wanted Corbyn as leader but he's such a disappointment. He's about as charismatic as a lettuce and just doesn't seem up for any kind of fight. He's a drip. Shame really.

Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

  • Currently facing issues around potty training. All help appreciated.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,203
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2016, 11:51:44 am »
The voters the party has lost are the voters it was set up to serve. Listening to them and addressing their concerns should come first.

Isn't the worry that, in the wake of Brexit and a tidal wave of ill feeling, people on the left won't like what they have to say?

Thought provoking posts from Dr Beaker and Filopastry there. There's just so much uncertainty, which shouldn't really be the case after a decisive leadership vote. Whatever happens next, I hope it arrives in time to shake up the May premiership as she's fucking dire.
get thee to the library before the c*nts close it down

we are a bunch of twats commenting on a website.

Offline Thush

  • Spawwow, Tit. Anal Chat is "Equidistant between chit-chat and analysis"
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,073
  • It's pronounced "Toosh"
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2016, 12:51:53 pm »
Isn't the worry that, in the wake of Brexit and a tidal wave of ill feeling, people on the left won't like what they have to say?
That's my thought too. Labour have lost their traditional working class voter base (outside of a few cities) to the Tories and UKIP. The problem I see is that they are far less likely to be convinced by any rational arguments now.

I think I'd rather Labour focus on those people who do not vote and engage them.

Offline filopastry

  • seldom posts but often delivers
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,756
  • Let me tell you a story.........
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2016, 01:44:46 pm »
That's my thought too. Labour have lost their traditional working class voter base (outside of a few cities) to the Tories and UKIP. The problem I see is that they are far less likely to be convinced by any rational arguments now.

I think I'd rather Labour focus on those people who do not vote and engage them.

If Brexit showed anything, its that a lot of people who don't normally vote in General Elections are pretty sympathetic to UKIP's views on some matters.

Offline Mutton Geoff

  • 'The Invigilator'
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,663
  • Life is a journey, not a destination.
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2016, 02:05:31 pm »
I see the Corbyn fans are already blaming everyone else for his wretched performance. Your party now Geoff, you go out and do some leg work for a change.

Sorry Yorkie been a foot soldier for years you are talking to the wrong guy as usual.
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline Mutton Geoff

  • 'The Invigilator'
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,663
  • Life is a journey, not a destination.
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2016, 02:15:57 pm »
Who gives a fuck? Can you stick this in the relevant thread. Cheers.

Sod this!

 This needs saying

 
Two replies in this thread from you both sniping both as usual looking for a fight or heated argument rather than a sensible discussion,  why not add something decent to this discussion instead of trolling it.
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Online TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 93,676
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2016, 02:18:22 pm »
I think it's clear that what came before isn't the answer, and what we have now isn't the answer either...

“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

  • FUCK THE POLICE - NWA
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 40,806
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2016, 06:35:17 pm »
On who better to trust to run the nation's economy:
May & Hammond: 55%
Corbyn & McDonnell: 22%
(via ComRes / 09 - 10 Nov)

Shouldn't be a shock this, but gives a good idea of how badly labour would be beaten in a GE

Offline Greyfox

  • Silver Fox's less distinguished brother
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,711
  • Liverbird on my chest
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #75 on: November 12, 2016, 06:44:37 pm »
I think it's clear that what came before isn't the answer, and what we have now isn't the answer either...



The thing is has anyone in The Labour Party actually read the fucking question?

It is glaringly obvious that the electorate are essentially ignoring them...traditional areas of support are fading away as they are sick of being told.."Yes, we note your concerns, but the concerns you should REALLY be having are these..."

Without Scottish Labour they have no chance at the moment of a GE win...the numbers don't stack, and they seemed to have offered fuck all apart from Militant Lite. As an indicator, Mulhearn and cohorts are trying to rejoin the party.

No charisma being projected to an electorate, and no seeming relevance to a more "bourjois" electorate than in the past. Sadly appears to be nothing more than a debating society ATM

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,642
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #76 on: November 12, 2016, 07:21:00 pm »
On who better to trust to run the nation's economy:
May & Hammond: 55%
Corbyn & McDonnell: 22%
(via ComRes / 09 - 10 Nov)

Shouldn't be a shock this, but gives a good idea of how badly labour would be beaten in a GE

It might do. But it doesnt mean they might not fair better in an election.

Offline KiNki

  • Smicer devotee supreme, Sammy Lee impersonator extraordinaire.
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,244
  • i am an_nik_ki.
    • http://hfdinfo.com/digital
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #77 on: November 12, 2016, 07:27:25 pm »
Polls are never wrong.  Where as the magic goat is always blob on. 

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

  • FUCK THE POLICE - NWA
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 40,806
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #78 on: November 12, 2016, 07:31:28 pm »
It might do. But it doesnt mean they might not fair better in an election.
theyre polling around 30% so wouldn't expect much more than that

Polls are never wrong.  Where as the magic goat is always blob on. 
true but they don't tend to be wrong by such a massive amount

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,642
Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #79 on: November 12, 2016, 07:34:19 pm »
theyre polling around 30% so wouldn't expect much more than that
true but they don't tend to be wrong by such a massive amount
Who is to say that they wouldnt still vote for them regardless of what strengths they have? They might be seen as a bit shit on the economy but their message may still cut through?

If anything has come clear is that everything now is up for grabs.