Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[Team Sleep]

How is she "boosted" by Johnson agreeing to back her as long as she gets something that's not on offer?

Oh, get a spine Keir.

It's amazing watching them fail to acknowledge that the whole purpose of the backstop is protection against the UK acting in bad faith, like y'know, spending 18 months negotiating something in line with self-imposed red lines and then attempting to renegotiate it at the 11th hour while playing chicken over no deal...

Watching the unjustified arrogance from this side, against the consistent straight-talking from the likes of Weyand and Barnier, really is kids vs adults stuff. May would have to have been playing a blinder of Corbynesque-proportions for this shitshow to somehow turn out OK now. Don't see how this ends well at all.

[TepidT2O]

It seems to confirm our worst fears and what some of us have been saying and known all along, that there are some in the inner circle who would undoubtedly prefer a hard brexit than offering the slightest chance of a peoples vote that would stop the whole thing.

This is their opportunity, a Win Win for Milne & the others that see and have always seen the EU as the big bad Capitalist anti-worker bogeyman, we'll be out of Europe with no ties so a year zero opportunity for the  Anarcho-Corbynism project, while the deleterious results of a hard Brexit itself can be (and obviously will be by the usual truth benders) wholly be blamed on the Tories.

Bastards seems a wholly inadequate word to describe these people.

Yep.

The Tories want a hard Brexit because it boosts their share of the vote and don’t give a fuxk.

About want a hard Brexit because thye just don’t give a fuck.

Female Frottage, bearded Frottage.

[ShakaHislop]

So on JC's Dear-Theresa letter, per @Peston am told there *was* a reference to a referendum, at an earlier stage of the drafting process - which was then removed. @Keir_Starmer saw *and approved* the final draft - but "it was Jeremy's letter".

https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1094967253462933506

Sorry for the awful grammar in the previous tweet. Anyway... Senior Labour source insists that reports of LOTO making late changes to the Brexit letter are "wrong" and its content was "agreed more widely" On suggestions that Starmer wrote it, they said: "it was Jeremy's letter"

https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1094959415256629248

So is this more lies from Milne a "senior Labour source" or is Starmer knowingly playing the role of Remain good cop?

[Ghost Town]

bearded Frottage.

Not beach-body ready, then? 

[Jiminy Cricket]

And yet even now seemingly intelligent people are saying that we need to appease the thickies and the racists and the ignorant and the thugs because 'they might riot' or something.

Fuck 'em! Just revoke A50 now, already! Let the the trogs and the racists and the mewling Brexit quims do their worst, and sit back and watch the armed forces deal with them.

#catharsis

I think there is very serious underestimation of the extremely negative reaction from Remainers (and disillusioned Brexiteers) if we leave the EU, and in particular, with No-Deal. Remainers will tend to exact their revenge politically. But I think there is a very volatile, sizeable minority who will react very violently to what will come. I expect that most of these will have have actually voted Leave, but that will not subdue them. There is no reason to expect that most Leavers voted that way out of some deep conviction. They will flip as soon as they experience the slightest inconvenience; never mind the coming shit storm.

[liversaint]

Theresa May - The kind of negotiator to come out of DFS with a full priced sofa.

[Ghost Town]

I think there is very serious underestimation of the extremely negative reaction from Remainers (and disillusioned Brexiteers) if we leave the EU, and in particular, with No-Deal. Remainers will tend to exact their revenge politically. But I think there is a very volatile, sizeable minority who will react very violently to what will come. I expect that most of these will have have actually voted Leave, but that will not subdue them. There is no reason to expect that most Leavers voted that way out of some deep conviction. They will flip as soon as they experience the slightest inconvenience; never mind the coming shit storm.

If true, that means that trouble, and possibly violence, is on the way, whatever happens...

[Commence Ode to Joy.mp3]

[stoa]

It's amazing watching them fail to acknowledge that the whole purpose of the backstop is protection against the UK acting in bad faith, like y'know, spending 18 months negotiating something in line with self-imposed red lines and then attempting to renegotiate it at the 11th hour while playing chicken over no deal...

I'm not sure that you're right and I'm also not sure that it's a good idea to make it look like the backstop has anything to do with a "bad" relationship between the EU and the UK or that is about mistrust. The backstop would be there even if the negotiations had gone smoothly and everything was fine.

[oldfordie]

I think there is very serious underestimation of the extremely negative reaction from Remainers (and disillusioned Brexiteers) if we leave the EU, and in particular, with No-Deal. Remainers will tend to exact their revenge politically. But I think there is a very volatile, sizeable minority who will react very violently to what will come. I expect that most of these will have have actually voted Leave, but that will not subdue them. There is no reason to expect that most Leavers voted that way out of some deep conviction. They will flip as soon as they experience the slightest inconvenience; never mind the coming shit storm.

Am shocked our MPs think they can get away with this, am shocked Corbyn seems to think all the Brexit issue will end when we leave next month.
We will want serious problems solved, there is no way to solve these problems, many can only be solved by being members of the EU,many can only be solved with co-operation agreements and trade deals. trade deal not going to happen for aprox, 7yrs.
I wouldn't mind but it's obvious what Frottage and ERG will do, they will argue our government should have respected the result of the referendum and prepared for a no deal 2 yrs ago. bol.. they are saying a no deal is nothing to fear now while knowing were not prepared.

[Team Sleep]

I'm not sure that you're right and I'm also not sure that it's a good idea to make it look like the backstop has anything to do with a "bad" relationship between the EU and the UK or that is about mistrust. The backstop would be there even if the negotiations had gone smoothly and everything was fine.

Happy to be corrected and "whole purpose" is wrong - there are good reasons for the backstop - but the fact we are tied into it doesn't speak to there being a lot of faith in our ability to not do something stupid down the line. It feels like protection against further bad decision making while we agree the future relationship. Either way, the fact we are trying to make a guarantee temporary at this stage - rather than go into later negotiations in good faith - is a bad look.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Theresa May - The kind of negotiator to come out of DFS with a full priced sofa.

lucky for her that her opponent does that but also buys the insurance on it

[Banquo's Ghost]

Also rumours of a May election now too. So meh.

Here's the HuffPost for you though. (It's long.)

Thank you Zeb, much appreciated.

[stevo7]

From skimming QT/Political programmes over the last few years I suppose Leavers/Brexiters won't mind going on a register to acknowledge their view.
When/If a war starts due to Brexit - they, and their kin wont mind being drafted first.

[cress]

From skimming QT/Political programmes over the last few years I suppose Leavers/Brexiters won't mind going on a register to acknowledge their view.
When/If a war starts due to Brexit - they, and their kin wont mind being drafted first.

Why would a war start over brexit?

[So… Howard Philips]

The incompetence of Chris Grayling knows no bounds - the process to let the shipping contract was flawed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47206303

[Zeb]

From skimming QT/Political programmes over the last few years I suppose Leavers/Brexiters won't mind going on a register to acknowledge their view.
When/If a war starts due to Brexit - they, and their kin wont mind being drafted first.

Simon Wren-Lewis suggests that the government send a debt collector round to every Leaver's house to ask for their Ł2000 contribution towards Brexiting.

(Since the Brexit vote: "That roughly translates into the average household losing almost Ł2000 worth of resources (mainly lower private consumption, but also lost public spending and investment).") His blog

Should have done it for austerity too.

[Machae]

Simon Wren-Lewis suggests that the government send a debt collector round to every Leaver's house to ask for their Ł2000 contribution towards Brexiting.

(Since the Brexit vote: "That roughly translates into the average household losing almost Ł2000 worth of resources (mainly lower private consumption, but also lost public spending and investment).") His blog

Should have done it for austerity too.

When the results came in, I did suggest that we separate as an Island and put all the Leavers on one and Remain on the other.

[rob1966]

Ledsom on the radio this morning trying pin all the blame on the NI border on the EU. Blame shifting c*nt.

On breakfast telly, the Mail Editor muppet was saying may will likely quit soon but wants to leave a legacy and Brexit will be it. What a fucking legacy that will be.

[Trim0582]

Ledsom on the radio this morning trying pin all the blame on the NI border on the EU. Blame shifting c*nt.

On breakfast telly, the Mail Editor muppet was saying may will likely quit soon but wants to leave a legacy and Brexit will be it. What a fucking legacy that will be.

Rather unbelievably, for 17mil voters, it will be seen as a legacy. That is the issue with all of this.

[BobOnATank]

When the results came in, I did suggest that we separate as an Island and put all the Leavers on one and Remain on the other.

You mean like the Irish and Scots plan A post brexit - unfortunately some of you all will be left behind!

Ledsom on the radio this morning trying pin all the blame on the NI border on the EU. Blame shifting c*nt.

On breakfast telly, the Mail Editor muppet was saying may will likely quit soon but wants to leave a legacy and Brexit will be it. What a fucking legacy that will be.

NI border backstop, if their "precious union" is so important why are they are working tooth and nail to worsen the economic stability and undermine the peace accord/GFA. Beggars believe that they or the dupers think this will resolve something or set them on a path that they want to be on - of course the other option is that the dupers have overplayed their card and the tories want rid of them and the state, no votes to be won so why bother.

Also I suppose the BBC "journalist" didn't ask if Ledsom was advocating a hard border and going back on the red lines - strange how that one seems flexible but all others are not.

[Devon Red]

May just ruled out a customs union and close single market ties in her HoC speech. That's every other option off the table then, I look forward to Corbyn's letter calling for a People's Vote.

[naka]

May just ruled out a customs union and close single market ties in her HoC speech. That's every other option off the table then, I look forward to Corbyn's letter calling for a People's Vote.

just saw that
Jeremy might have to get off the fence
and starmer may have to get a spine

[stevo7]

Why would a war start over brexit?

We fought a war over the Falklands FFS. Brexit is going affect everyone a whole lot more. Hope you put your name down for the draft.

[Zeb]

Dominic Grieve and Luciana Berger seem to have picked up on what May intends to do. She's intending to rush legislation to enable Brexit through after a vote on her 'deal' in mid- to late-March rather than seek an extension. (See Huffpost's Paul Waugh for the detail.) Still can't see what is gained by not staging an intervention on Thursday but is by leaving it until the end of the month.

[Fortneef]

Simon Wren-Lewis suggests that the government send a debt collector round to every Leaver's house to ask for their Ł2000 contribution towards Brexiting.

(Since the Brexit vote: "That roughly translates into the average household losing almost Ł2000 worth of resources (mainly lower private consumption, but also lost public spending and investment).") His blog

Should have done it for austerity too.

That’s a ridiculously unfair suggestion.

If Brexit costs 2k a household , then Leave household should be paying 4k each. Or even 6k if you factor in nonvoters.

[Ray K]

@damocrat
Ken Clarke on EU-Japan deal: “Is she insisting that we’ve got to leave it and have our own trade policy, and begin our own negotiations with a country which has a very much bigger economy than our own, and is likely to demand from UK concessions it was unable to demand from EU?”

https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1095312564798525440

@damocrat
I was tempted to cut May’s reply, but left it in so people could hear how utterly vacuous it was.

[BobOnATank]

Dominic Grieve and Luciana Berger seem to have picked up on what May intends to do. She's intending to rush legislation to enable Brexit through after a vote on her 'deal' in mid- to late-March rather than seek an extension. (See Huffpost's Paul Waugh for the detail.) Still can't see what is gained by not staging an intervention on Thursday but is by leaving it until the end of the month.

She's just setting up her ability to enable her deal when the hoc is cornered at the end of March as I see it. She'll continue to talk about negotiations and anything else that wastes time but ultimately betting on enough in the hoc to vote for her cometh the day - least worst position.

I expect nothing significant from redkip, a few soundbites, after all only a month to go before their final strategy of "pin it on the tories" is complete. Cross party groups will likely have to go all in now.

[Zeb]

She's just setting up her ability to enable her deal when the hoc is cornered at the end of March as I see it. She'll continue to talk about negotiations and anything else that wastes time but ultimately betting on enough in the hoc to vote for her cometh the day - least worst position.

I expect nothing significant from redkip, a few soundbites, after all only a month to go before their final strategy of "pin it on the tories" is complete. Cross party groups will likely have to go all in now.

Aye, it's the implicit ruling out of seeking more time to ratify which is new there. It's effectively ensuring the government needs to be supported through til all the legislation is passed unless a majority to revoke Article 50 or seek an extension to ratify May's 'deal' is found to form a new government.

[killer-heels]

Dominic Grieve and Luciana Berger seem to have picked up on what May intends to do. She's intending to rush legislation to enable Brexit through after a vote on her 'deal' in mid- to late-March rather than seek an extension. (See Huffpost's Paul Waugh for the detail.) Still can't see what is gained by not staging an intervention on Thursday but is by leaving it until the end of the month.

Probably because most Tories would always put party before country?

Also she does have plenty of Labour people on side. The likes of Snell, Onn, Smeeth and Flint will back her.

At the end of the day its popular on here for people to cane Corbyn, but noone seems to want to pick up on the fact that the so called centrists are not really on board either.

[ShakaHislop]

Probably because most Tories would always put party before country?

Also she does have plenty of Labour people on side. The likes of Snell, Onn, Smeeth and Flint will back her.

At the end of the day its popular on here for people to cane Corbyn, but noone seems to want to pick up on the fact that the so called centrists are not really on board either.

I know Nandy has been talking of 40-60, but I think it will be closer to 20 Labour MPs who will ultimately vote for May's deal. That won't be enough for it to pass when you factor in the Tory rebels and DUP.

[killer-heels]

I know Nandy has been talking of 40-60, but I think it will be closer to 20 Labour MPs who will ultimately vote for May's deal. That won't be enough for it to pass when you factor in the Tory rebels and DUP.

What about the Labour lot who abstain?

[Zeb]

Probably because most Tories would always put party before country?

Also she does have plenty of Labour people on side. The likes of Snell, Onn, Smeeth and Flint will back her.

At the end of the day its popular on here for people to cane Corbyn, but noone seems to want to pick up on the fact that the so called centrists are not really on board either.

More about why even bother signalling if you've no intention of turning. Not like it's a political advantage to be doing it in the current Tory party.

Not sure of what you mean by centrists not really being on board? There's about 30 Labour MPs who'd jump at backing May if they could be sure they'll get a fig leaf over workers' rights. Don't think they're enough on their own to let May do this. Question for rest of Labour party is whether they're backing a soft Brexit or remain or else end up abstaining. Starmer's trying to force that choice I think by offering up the option for route to a soft Brexit. And good luck to him on such endeavours when it's bloody obvious that it will make not a jot of difference when even Lucy Powell will rebel if she wants to make a point.

edit: sorry, had this open a while so missed Shaka's post. Agree with it but would push it a bit higher.

[ShakaHislop]

What about the Labour lot who abstain?

Some of them will vote for the deal, some of them might abstain again instead. Either way, I don't believe the total number of Labour MPs who will vote for the deal, or abstain will be as high as the figures the likes of Nandy are suggesting.

[killer-heels]

More about why even bother signalling if you've no intention of turning. Not like it's a political advantage to be doing it in the current Tory party.

Not sure of what you mean by centrists not really being on board? There's about 30 Labour MPs who'd jump at backing May if they could be sure they'll get a fig leaf over workers' rights. Don't think they're enough on their own to let May do this. Question for rest of Labour party is whether they're backing a soft Brexit or remain or else end up abstaining. Starmer's trying to force that choice I think by offering up the option for route to a soft Brexit. And good luck to him on such endeavours when it's bloody obvious that it will make not a jot of difference when even Lucy Powell will rebel if she wants to make a point.

edit: sorry, had this open a while so missed Shaka's post. Agree with it but would push it a bit higher.

She is playing the right political game. Nandy said there were 40-60 that would back her now if they got some workers rigjt protection. She got 200 last time with none of that.

Add to that if she takes things right to the wire and risks no deal, more Tory Remainers and Labour will shit their knickera and back her as well.

Fair play to May. She is playing dirty but its what is needed.

[killer-heels]

Some of them will vote for the deal, some of them might abstain again instead. Either way, I don't believe the total number of Labour MPs who will vote for the deal, or abstain will be as high as the figures the likes of Nandy are suggesting.

I dont know, i think it is because we havent accounted for the number who will shit themselves if its no deal or May’s deal.

There were 30 who voted against Coopers motion or abstained. She would get far more than that if she takes it closer to the cliff edge.

40-60 seems more than plausible, especially if you factor in wet wipes like Grieve.

[Zeb]

She is playing the right political game. Nandy said there were 40-60 that would back her now if they got some workers rigjt protection. She got 200 last time with none of that.

Add to that if she takes things right to the wire and risks no deal, more Tory Remainers and Labour will shit their knickera and back her as well.

Fair play to May. She is playing dirty but its what is needed.

Said for ages my money's on her passing it. Corbyn's going to be faced with choice of actively supporting it or tacitly, and/or let some of his backbenchers take the fall for him.

Know where Nandy's coming from. There's a potential of around 80 Labour MPs, from how they've voted over past couple of years, who'd back May if they thought they could trust her and they'd not pay too high a political price for it. Problem is there's no way to guarantee the future relationship in the political declaration, and May's facility with untruths hasn't passed Nandy by either.

[killer-heels]

Said for ages my money's on her passing it. Corbyn's going to be faced with choice of actively supporting it or tacitly, and/or let some of his backbenchers take the fall for him.

Know where Nandy's coming from. There's a potential of around 80 Labour MPs, from how they've voted over past couple of years, who'd back May if they thought they could trust her and they'd not pay too high a political price for it. Problem is there's no way to guarantee the future relationship in the political declaration, and May's facility with untruths hasn't passed Nandy by either.

I saw what Nandy said and she is right. But I would put back to her how much teeth has she got? Will she vote through the deal if its no deal vs that?

Moaning about it makes no difference.

[Sangria]

Probably because most Tories would always put party before country?

Also she does have plenty of Labour people on side. The likes of Snell, Onn, Smeeth and Flint will back her.

At the end of the day its popular on here for people to cane Corbyn, but noone seems to want to pick up on the fact that the so called centrists are not really on board either.

Why is the Overton window so far towards the kipper position when hardly any Leave campaigners defined their position as that during the campaign? The margin wasn't huge, and Frottage said such a margin for Remain would not be the end of the fight. Why was Corbyn so eager to set out the will of the people argument so early on? We know that May is using the end date triggered by article 50 to push through her deal. Why was Corbyn so eager to trigger that, and to usher the Tory position through?

The leader of the opposition has leeway to question the government, and indeed is called the loyal opposition and paid as such to do exactly that. Why couldn't he do the minimum required of him as the salaried leader of the loyal opposition? Unlike Corbyn and Labour's chief whip, the other Labour MPs get the standard MP salary and no more. They're not directly paid to oppose the government. Corbyn is. What is Corbyn doing to justify that money that he's pocketing?

[killer-heels]

Why is the Overton window so far towards the kipper position when hardly any Leave campaigners defined their position as that during the campaign? The margin wasn't huge, and Frottage said such a margin for Remain would not be the end of the fight. Why was Corbyn so eager to set out the will of the people argument so early on? We know that May is using the end date triggered by article 50 to push through her deal. Why was Corbyn so eager to trigger that, and to usher the Tory position through?

The leader of the opposition has leeway to question the government, and indeed is called the loyal opposition and paid as such to do exactly that. Why couldn't he do the minimum required of him as the salaried leader of the loyal opposition? Unlike Corbyn and Labour's chief whip, the other Labour MPs get the standard MP salary and no more. They're not directly paid to oppose the government. Corbyn is. What is Corbyn doing to justify that money that he's pocketing?

Probably because he too is a Brexiteer, or clueless. That covers most peoples position in parliament.

There is hardly anyone there worth your vote or worth backing. They are pretty much all utterly incompetent.

[BobOnATank]

I don't think trusting May has anything to do with it, I expect her to hand in her notice straight after she shoehorns her deal through.

Maybe corbyn will just ask his leave representing MPs "do the right thing" and back her deal then they always have the fallback of "I done it for the people", Corbyn then talks of avoiding a bluekip no deal brexit and his MPs are largely in the clear. Of course all that is based on localised voting patterns and stats which seem to be the flavour of the day at the moment.