Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[killer-heels]

That labour list is fucking shocking. A lot of those northern Labour MP’s need a good slap. What the fuck are they playing at?

Just looking to keep their easy, cushy jobs.

[ShakaHislop]

That's the Tory majority gone if they push for 'no deal' then if 10 are willing to stand out right now. Labour leavers really need to get their shit sorted though. Like Onn and Smeeth a lot but there's a point where saying 'I want a perfect Brexit' isn't a good enough answer. Seeing Angela Smith the Change UK MP getting a load of grief for not voting - she's on sick leave. Wish the sites had a bit of nuance to them. Wish all the 'how did they vote' sites did for all sorts of reasons.

Yes, that's a good point.

FYI - Clive Efford, Julie Elliott, Paul Farrelly, Ian C Lucas and Jo Stevens are on a DCMS committee trip.

Clive Efford, Julie Elliott, Paul Farrelly, Hugh Gaffney, Imran Hussain, Barbara Keely, Ian C Lucas, Gordon Marsden, Jo Stevens, Derek Twigg have not rebelled in this way on Brexit before. Five were on a DCMS trip. Likely only Onn, Smeeth and Snell intentionally abstained.

https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1138856995820331008

Just because they haven't rebelled in that way before doesn't mean this wasn't the first time though. With regards to the DCMS lot, some of the replies to the Tweet mention/ask about "pairing" but could they not have simply fucked off that trip for the vote today which is surely more important?

[ShakaHislop]

That labour list is fucking shocking. A lot of those northern Labour MP’s need a good slap. What the fuck are they playing at?

Just looking to keep their easy, cushy jobs.

You also have ex-Labour MPs like Ian Austin and Ivan Lewis, who didn't leave the party for Brexit reasons, voting against.

[Zeb]

Just because they haven't rebelled in that way before doesn't mean this wasn't the first time though. With regards to the DCMS lot, some of the replies to the Tweet mention/ask about "pairing" but could they not have simply fucked off that trip for the vote today which is surely more important?

Looks like they were paired from overall numbers. All seems to be very performative today in any case. Hope they've all had a think about who would have a chance of commanding the confidence of Parliament (spoiler: it isn't Corbyn).

[Wabaloolah]

8 Labour MPs voted against Labour's motion; 13 didn't vote either way.

https://commonsvotes.digiminster.com/Divisions/Details/689?byMember=false

they should be ashamed of themselves, haven't they worked out that if we do crash out with No Deal that it's Constituencies like theirs that will be hardest hit. Voting with the Tories, have they no shame. They are now compliant in this mess.Twats

[Jiminy Cricket]

Looks like they were paired from overall numbers. All seems to be very performative today in any case. Hope they've all had a think about who would have a chance of commanding the confidence of Parliament (spoiler: it isn't Corbyn).

Is there a mechanism/scenario where an MP (from any party) might become PM without being elected leader of their party?

[Wabaloolah]

You also have ex-Labour MPs like Ian Austin and Ivan Lewis, who didn't leave the party for Brexit reasons, voting against.

Ian Austin has a majority of about 100 in the West Midlands so I can see maybe why he has gone down that route, little excuse for some though where their votes are weighed rather than counted

[Wabaloolah]

Is there a mechanism/scenario where an MP (from any party) might become PM without being elected leader of their party?

how exactly would that happen?

[Zeb]

Is there a mechanism/scenario where an MP (from any party) might become PM without being elected leader of their party?

Yeah. Churchill wasn't leader of the conservatives when he became PM. Sure there's other examples. With the Fixed Terms Act, it would be within the fortnight after the government has lost a confidence vote. Queen would call someone to the palace to ask them to form a government. She'd be taking advice from senior civil servants and MPs on who would have a chance of assembling a majority.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Yeah. Churchill wasn't leader of the conservatives when he became PM. Sure there's other examples. With the Fixed Terms Act, it would be within the fortnight after the government has lost a confidence vote. Queen would call someone to the palace to ask them to form a government. She'd be taking advice from senior civil servants and MPs on who would have a chance of assembling a majority.

So, this begs the question (and I thought you last post hinted at this), is there an MP who could possibly fulfill this role? Is there a chance that enough MPs from across the house will understand the gravity of the situation and consider it a national emergency (even if Labour and Tory parties as a whole do not get it)?

[drmick]

Am I right in thinking you don't have to be an MP to be PM?

[Jiminy Cricket]

Am I right in thinking you don't have to be an MP to be PM?

Yes, but it is complicated. I believe someone else would have act on the PMs behalf in The Commons, and probably some other stuff like that. I think it was Zeb who posted about this a few weeks ago.

[Zeb]

Yes, but it is complicated. I believe someone else would have act on the PMs behalf in The Commons, and probably some other stuff like that. I think it was Zeb who posted about this a few weeks ago.

I can't remember posting about it but I forgot the name of the street I live on this afternoon and baffled the poor cab driver very thoroughly. But, it's convention that the PM sits in the Commons now so expectation would be that even if they were in the Lords they'd be shuffled into a seat. Lords was a bit stronger relative to the Commons when it happened with Salisbury etc. a hundred odd years back.

re. MPs. Don't know. There's a question of priorities for the Leader of the Opposition there, isn't there? As well as for MPs. But if October looks a long way away now, it's going to seem a lot closer once they're back from their summer hols and then head straight into conference season etc.

[Machae]

That labour list is fucking shocking. A lot of those northern Labour MP’s need a good slap. What the fuck are they playing at?

Just looking to keep their easy, cushy jobs.

They definitely need a good slapping, smug twats.

You also have ex-Labour MPs like Ian Austin and Ivan Lewis, who didn't leave the party for Brexit reasons, voting against.

Cant they be booted out, some of those have defied their party on every vote put forward

[Nobby Reserve]

We will see real hardship, real unemployment, real shortages.  And for what?

Freedom for the UK's financial services sector to continue its 'light-touch' regulation and the BOTs/CDs to continue their veil of secrecy without EU oversight.

[Zeb]

That shameless gobshite Graham Stringer amongst the 8 again.

Just after I resigned, but before I got deleted from all the e-mail chains, there was another attempt to make some mild criticism of him consistently voting against the whip on EU issues from some of the newer members in my ward. Motion ended up going to the CLP as an ode of praise to the leadership's position on Brexit instead. If Hoey is used as the reason for the deselection attempts to begin then Stringer is still going to be at the back of the queue. Too close to lèse-majesté otherwise.

[Trada]

Out of the 13 abstainers tonight. 11 were pairs with Tory abstainers so were allowed. 2 abstained deliberately they were Gareth Snell and Ruth Smeeth

[killer-heels]

Can Smeeth be deselcted?

[John C]

Just after I resigned, but before I got deleted from all the e-mail chains,

I've missed your interesting background mate. Where from?
PM if it's better for you, but I'm extremely interested in your story.

[ShakaHislop]

Research from @GMB_Union shows that leaving under WTO rules could increase the cost of an average shopping basket by over £800 a year! Tory leadership candidates should rule out a no deal Brexit to stop the increased costs being passed on to UK shoppers.

2:06 am - 10 Jun 2019

https://twitter.com/RuthSmeeth/status/1138009473564446720

 

[Zeb]

Can Smeeth be deselcted?

Depends on her CLP, I don't know it, but yeah and it'll get easier to do when the NEC set out when the new rules making it easier to kick in. Was expected to happen in March to allow for September/October deselections but a decision has been delayed as it seems like they've figured out that the MPs most likely to get deselected are likely decide to go independent or shift parties if it happens to them.

[filopastry]

Personally I think the likes of Smeeth and Snell are trying to pander to voters who are largely lost to Labour anyway.

Voters who want a No Deal and have Brexit as a high priority in terms of issues they are voting over aren't going to be voting for Labour whatever Labour say. As pissed off as I am with Labour's position, or lack thereof, on Brexit, Labour is never going to be able to offer the kind of Brexit rhetoric to placate that ovting group that a twat like BoJo the clown is.

Labour's chances of electoral success, basically now depend on Remainers being willing to hold their nose and vote for them, maybe that can make that work again as it almost did in 2017, but I'm not convinced, the LibDems seem to be in the process of being detoxified and that will probably do for Labour in the end

[Zeb]

I've missed your interesting background mate. Where from?
PM if it's better for you, but I'm extremely interested in your story.

Half the family's from Liverpool originally. Moved to North Wales for work in the 70s - back when Norweb and Manweb were things. Other half miners and steelworkers from North Wales. Other brothers got practical talents, I ended up happier with a book and a pen. Ended up in Manchester myself a fair few years back, initially to do postgrad stuff and then a PGCE, first in family to uni and all that, now up in Cheetham Hill, Manchester.

[Team Sleep]

Personally I think the likes of Smeeth and Snell are trying to pander to voters who are largely lost to Labour anyway.

Voters who want a No Deal and have Brexit as a high priority in terms of issues they are voting over aren't going to be voting for Labour whatever Labour say. As pissed off as I am with Labour's position, or lack thereof, on Brexit, Labour is never going to be able to offer the kind of Brexit rhetoric to placate that ovting group that a twat like BoJo the clown is.

Exactly.

Labour's chances of electoral success, basically now depend on Remainers being willing to hold their nose and vote for them, maybe that can make that work again as it almost did in 2017, but I'm not convinced, the LibDems seem to be in the process of being detoxified and that will probably do for Labour in the end

You can never rule out two party politics kicking in at a general election. It'll be interesting to see if the "vote Labour as a vote against Tories" thought process gives in and goes elsewhere in the face of an unpopular leader, incompetent politics and the arrogant, take Remain voters for granted attitude that's been on display while chasing Leave votes they can't win.

[killer-heels]

https://twitter.com/RuthSmeeth/status/1138009473564446720

 

Fucking hell MP’s are not that bright.

[Machae]

Wasnt the Yvette-Cooper proposal that just scraped through to prevent a no deal (or someones motion)? Why was today's motion different to that?

I haven't a clue what's going on anymore

[Zeb]

Wasnt the Yvette-Cooper proposal that scraped through to prevent a no deal? Why was today's motion different to that?

I haven't a clue what's going on anymore

Cooper's proposal last time only applied to the last time we faced 'no deal'. So it effectively gave the government cover to get an extension and push the decision to October. Today's vote was to start a similar process to what happened with Cooper but applying to October. First stage is to carve out time in Parliament for the opposition parties and Tory rebels to pass a law but it's failed at that point. Question is whether MPs will now get any other opportunity to even try the first stage - the government doesn't have to give the opposition time to do anything, which is the time they used today, and that leaves amending relevant legislation the government may want to pass - but 'no deal' can happen without the government needing to pass anything.

[Machae]

Got you, thanks.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Cant they be booted out, some of those have defied their party on every vote put forward

If that could happen then Corbyn wouldn't be in the party now

He voted over 400 times against the Labour Whip (More than 500 times total)

[Indomitable_Carp]

Or on the other hand they lived through the Korean War, the trouble in Palestine, Aden,national service, three day week, numerous strikes,  black tuesday, Pound devalued at least three times, the iron curtain, the cuban missile crisis, the worry about an atomic war instead of affordable housing try slum dwellings no central heating outside toilets, tin baths in front a fire if you were lucky, coal fires if you were lucky, no school buses, no cars to take you to school you either cycled or walked,  a fledgling NHS system nobody could afford holidays abroad,  11 plus, bog standard secondary modern schools, teachers who hit the students, police officers that hit kids if they messed up, hanging, homosexuality a crime,  no chance of university unless you were in a grammar school and parents who could afford to help you out, the grants were nowhere near enough, high unemployment throughout the decades, pollution from the power stations and furnaces, no internet, precious little tv , two radio stations, only one played music. the years of Heath Wilson bouncing in and out of number ten like rubber balls, before that the never had it so good Macmillan, then the grouse shooting Hume, the Profumo scandal, world in turmoil more wars than you have ever seen.
 
Now i understand that todays generation and people like you just feel entitled to a lot of stuff we never had and at the time frankly never needed, but if you think growing up in the fifties and sixties was so fucking easy then you are delusional feller, yeah the baby boomers great time to be alive !  Land of Milk and Honey mate.

You're pretty spot on with most of that. I have never been fond of these attempts to sow generational division.

What I will say though is that the younger generations today are the first since before the wars who are likely to see their standard of living decline as the years go by, whereas the boomers had more to look forward to (at least in theory). I think people can deal with more in the present if they know things are likely to get better in the future.

I'd also say that, materialism aside, boomers at least had more in the way of community and identity even if times were more lean. Young generations today have never known anything but individualistic consumerism, as that is what they have inherited. I'd say the former is probably more conducive of a happy and meaningful life, far more then materialism.

[Mutton Geoff]

You're pretty spot on with most of that. I have never been fond of these attempts to sow generational division.

What I will say though is that the younger generations today are the first since before the wars who are likely to see their standard of living decline as the years go by, whereas the boomers had more to look forward to (at least in theory). I think people can deal with more in the present if they know things are likely to get better in the future.

I'd also say that, materialism aside, boomers at least had more in the way of community and identity even if times were more lean. Young generations today have never known anything but individualistic consumerism, as that is what they have inherited. I'd say the former is probably more conducive of a happy and meaningful life, far more then materialism.

Totally agree with the community element in those days people looked after each other, now they shut the door and remain strangers, also we had such things as playing fields were we could play sports for free or hang around with our mates now they have these sterile sports centers were people workout alone with the headphones to cut out anyone and anything around them which also costs money and the kids end up hanging about in supermarket carparks and suchlike places because they have nowhere else to go to.

[Mutton Geoff]

Fucking hell MP’s are not that bright.

Your Damascus moment?

[Skeeve]

Your Damascus moment?

More likely to be daily amazement at how often they manage to lower the bar.

[ShakaHislop]

Varadkar: Removing backstop 'is effectively no deal'

The taoiseach (Irish prime minister) has said removing the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement, would be "effectively the same as no deal".

Leo Varadkar was responding to comments from some candidates seeking to replace Theresa May as prime minister.

Many contenders have proposed changes to the backstop, even though the EU says it is not up for renegotiation.

Mr Varadkar said: "If we don't have that (the backstop), there is no deal".

Speaking on Irish National Broadcaster RTÉ's Marian Finucane programme, the taoiseach said it was "alarming" some leading Conservatives were suggesting a no-deal Brexit.

"It's a legal guarantee and legally operable guarantee that we will never see a hard border again," Mr Varadkar said of the backstop.

He also responded to calls for a time limit to be attached to the backstop.

"The difficulties we have with a time limit, is effectively you are saying there will or could be a hard border once that time limit expires - that isn't a backstop," he said.

"What we are open to, and always have been open to, is alternative arrangements that perhaps could avoid a hard border, through procedures and technologies and so on.

"What we expect, and I don't think it's unreasonable - we want to see that fleshed out, we want to see it exist, it demonstrated before we are willing to give up the backstop.

"What people are saying is, 'give up the backstop' which we know will work legally and operationally in return for something that doesn't yet exist but might exist in the future.

"I can't do that to the border communities."

Mr Varadkar also said he was "concerned at the idea, and there is an idea there in Westminster, in London, that somehow Theresa May was a bad negotiator and got a bad deal.

"That's not true. She was a good negotiator, she had a good team.

"She probably got the best deal that she could get given that a country leaving the EU doesn't have much leverage.

"The fact that the failure of the House Of Commons to ratify the Withdrawal Agreement somehow means they are going to get a better deal, that is just not how the European Union works," he said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48647656

[drmick]

I'm not sure if this was his own idea, or if he has an inside source on Team Boris, but Michael Portillo thinks Boris' renegotiation trick with the EU will be to turn the backstop into an NI only backstop and then put that to a referendum in Northern Ireland.

[ShakaHislop]

I'm not sure if this was his own idea, or if he has an inside source on Team Boris, but Michael Portillo thinks Boris' renegotiation trick with the EU will be to turn the backstop into an NI only backstop and then put that to a referendum in Northern Ireland.

He'd piss off not only the DUP by doing that, but also the Scottish Tories because it's potentially splitting up the union via another referendum which is what they spend their time saying the SNP is bad for pursuing.

[killer-heels]

I'm not sure if this was his own idea, or if he has an inside source on Team Boris, but Michael Portillo thinks Boris' renegotiation trick with the EU will be to turn the backstop into an NI only backstop and then put that to a referendum in Northern Ireland.

The ERG would have that. They couldnt give a shit about NI and the DUP.

[Elmo!]

He'd piss off not only the DUP by doing that, but also the Scottish Tories because it's potentially splitting up the union via another referendum which is what they spend their time saying the SNP is bad for pursuing.

Also set's the precedent that a part of the UK can stay in the SM & CU. If NI can do it, why not Scotland?

[TepidT2O]

Also set's the precedent that a part of the UK can stay in the SM & CU. If NI can do it, why not Scotland?

Or London..

[oldfordie]

I'm not sure if this was his own idea, or if he has an inside source on Team Boris, but Michael Portillo thinks Boris' renegotiation trick with the EU will be to turn the backstop into an NI only backstop and then put that to a referendum in Northern Ireland.

As said DUP and SNP hit the roof. not to mention how this could possibly work in practical terms, tariffs between NI and rest of UK, NI in UK but not it's trade agreements with the rest of the world but the biggest short term flaw and contradiction to his arguments is how can he possibly get this whole process completed by the end of October. I thought he promised Family guy there would be no extension under any circumstances.