Topic: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!

[Red Beret]

The latest is still the Challenger 2, but they are upgrading them I believe.

You are probably right though - I believe most Challenger 2īs have been in service for at least 20 years. In terms of logistics in Ukraine - they are completely different from anything the Ukrainians are currently operating, and will require their own new logistical infrastructure to run and maintain them there. They are far heavier than any of the ex-Soviet tanks that Ukraine operates, with different parts.

But thatīs missing the main point - which is that these Challenger 2īs are a symbolic gesture to help encourage Germany to allow the lending of Leopard 2īs to Ukraine. There are now only around 230 Challenger 2īs in existence (in fact our government was considering scrapping them entirely only a few years ago - which now looks more short-sighted than ever).

That compares to upwards of 2,000 Leopard 2s. The Leopard 2s will of course also need their own logistical infrastructure - but that is much more worthwhile if we are talking 300 Leopard 2s as opposed to 10.

British government in "thinking of scrapping something to save money right before or after it turns out we might actually need it" shocker.

Yeah, the C2's are getting an overhaul, but only a comparative small number. To my knowledge there's no replacement in the pipeline, not even on the drawing board. That said, they're still a very capable MBT - one of the most heavily armoured out there.

The problem is their main gun is a rifle bore. As far as I know, almost every other country uses a smooth bore barrel. The British army has a preference for HE rounds (anti-personnel?), but obviously the C2 is quite effective against other armour. I'm not sure whether there is cross compatibility on the ordinance with other NATO countries though, on account of the barrel design. The barrels themselves are good for 400 shots. 

[Jiminy Cricket]

My 12 yr old does that all the time, calls me a Cat Funt, or a Cucking Funt, little twat.

Well, I suppose, at least he is polite enough to Spooner his words.

[Sangria]

British government in "thinking of scrapping something to save money right before or after it turns out we might actually need it" shocker.

Yeah, the C2's are getting an overhaul, but only a comparative small number. To my knowledge there's no replacement in the pipeline, not even on the drawing board. That said, they're still a very capable MBT - one of the most heavily armoured out there.

The problem is their main gun is a rifle bore. As far as I know, almost every other country uses a smooth bore barrel. The British army has a preference for HE rounds (anti-personnel?), but obviously the C2 is quite effective against other armour. I'm not sure whether there is cross compatibility on the ordinance with other NATO countries though, on account of the barrel design. The barrels themselves are good for 400 shots. 

The headline change from C2 to C3 is from rifled to smoothbore.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

British government in "thinking of scrapping something to save money right before or after it turns out we might actually need it" shocker.

Yeah, the C2's are getting an overhaul, but only a comparative small number. To my knowledge there's no replacement in the pipeline, not even on the drawing board. That said, they're still a very capable MBT - one of the most heavily armoured out there.

The problem is their main gun is a rifle bore. As far as I know, almost every other country uses a smooth bore barrel. The British army has a preference for HE rounds (anti-personnel?), but obviously the C2 is quite effective against other armour. I'm not sure whether there is cross compatibility on the ordinance with other NATO countries though on account of the barrel design. The barrels themselves are good for 400 shots.

They're sending ones with smooth bore barrels.

[afc tukrish]

My 12 yr old does that all the time, calls me a Cat Funt, or a Cucking Funt, little twat.

 

[Red Beret]

^^^ that's interesting to know, thanks.

[24/7]

This could become quite significant......if he lives long enough to testify.........

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64296979

Ukraine war: Russia's Wagner Group commander requests Norway asylum

[rob1966]

This could become quite significant......if he lives long enough to testify.........

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64296979

Ukraine war: Russia's Wagner Group commander requests Norway asylum

Dead by Friday, he's going to fall out of a window.

[24/7]

Dead by Friday, he's going to fall out of a window.

...fall....uh-huh...

[jillcwhomever]

Can he not shoot Putin first? 

[PaulF]

Thanks for the tank info. Interesting that our contribution is to send relics so others send proper gear.
Also interesting about head of Wagner group. Seems insane you'd have people go and fight like that , just for money. Surely not many expect to live to their forties? Though I wonder what they did before Ukraine.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

The tanks we're sending piss all over the Russians and are hardly relics.

[PaulF]

True. Sorry. Didn't mean this to descend into my tank is bigger and harder than yours 😃

[Indomitable_Carp]

Theyīre actually more modern than the Leopard 2īs. Leopard 2īs first entered service in 1979, the Challenger 2 in 1998.

But they all get upgraded to a similar standard these days. The main issue with the Leopard 2īs is whether European countries are willing to send over their upgraded and fully serviceable ones, or whether they will try to bring older ones out of storage which will need to be retrofitted and made workable (a process which the German company who makes the Leopard 2 says could take until 2024).

There is also the US Abrams - of which there are thousands of older variants in storage.

[Sangria]

Theyīre actually more modern than the Leopard 2īs. Leopard 2īs first entered service in 1979, the Challenger 2 in 1998.

But they all get upgraded to a similar standard these days. The main issue with the Leopard 2īs is whether European countries are willing to send over their upgraded and fully serviceable ones, or whether they will try to bring older ones out of storage which will need to be retrofitted and made workable (a process which the German company who makes the Leopard 2 says could take until 2024).

There is also the US Abrams - of which there are thousands of older variants in storage.

Are we really going to send them the fully upgraded version? IIRC Chobham is UK and US only. Maybe they can slap some reactive armour on, which can upgrade the capability without being too sensitive.

[classycarra]

This could become quite significant......if he lives long enough to testify.........

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64296979

Ukraine war: Russia's Wagner Group commander requests Norway asylum

I'm sure Norway will try to keep any "brazilian's" away from him!

Could be relatively significant from a morale (for lack of a better word) point of view - Wagner's leader is deep into politicking at the moment to try to bring down various favoured military leaders and appears to aspire to big power - be good to have some of that dirty laundry aired. Obviously the most important value ultimately will be in this person detailing the war crimes and contributing to investigations

[RJH]

Thanks for the tank info. Interesting that our contribution is to send relics so others send proper gear.
Also interesting about head of Wagner group. Seems insane you'd have people go and fight like that , just for money. Surely not many expect to live to their forties? Though I wonder what they did before Ukraine.

Before Ukraine, a lot of the Wagner group were committing war crimes in Syria.

I think insane is the right word - it seems like for a lot of these guys, the torture, murder, rape and robbing are plus points.

[thaddeus]

Before Ukraine, a lot of the Wagner group were committing war crimes in Syria.

I think insane is the right word - it seems like for a lot of these guys, the torture, murder, rape and robbing are plus points.

It's likely a mixture of highly trained soldiers that have been conditioned to follow instructions and psychopaths that enjoy inflicting terror.  The addition of prisoners will surely have bolstered the numbers in the second category!  Not that all prisoners are psychopaths but, even with the reported conditions in Russian prisons, I'd expect that they're mostly dredging the long term convicts that did some awful things to end up in prison.

The reported political infighting between Wagner and the Russian forces is good news.  Wagner enjoying success where Russian forces aren't isn't good for Putin and Wagner successes can't scale to a full invasion of a country like Ukraine.  Hopefully they don't find a way to resolve that one.

[stoopid yank]

There is also the US Abrams - of which there are thousands of older variants in storage.

Abrams have the same sort of logistical issues - heavy - fuel guzzlers, require specific parts and specific type maintenance by mechanics trained on them.

[PaulF]

Sounds like all tanks need a lot of specialist care. I guess we get Ukrainians here for a crash course on the mechanics. Though they probably send the tanks over with maintenance manuals!

[Yorkykopite]

Mr Stupid is at it again:

https://twitter.com/democracynow/status/1616427648393134082

[Red Beret]

Didn't he lose the whip?  Why are they still describing him as a Labour MP?  Was he reinstated?

In any case, "talks" can't be held unless and until there are grounds for compromise. Currently that is not the case. Russia can't walk away unless Ukraine gives them something, and Ukraine ain't gonna - and nor should they.

[Sangria]

Didn't he lose the whip?  Why are they still describing him as a Labour MP?  Was he reinstated?

In any case, "talks" can't be held unless and until there are grounds for compromise. Currently that is not the case. Russia can't walk away unless Ukraine gives them something, and Ukraine ain't gonna - and nor should they.

Democracy Now is a US organisation, so they may not be too up to date with UK party political details. Plus they seem to sympathise with a certain section of the left wing scene, so they may still identify Labour with you know who.

If you know who had been Labour leader last February, the left in the UK would be dead for a generation until a replacement for the Labour party was created and established over multiple elections. The left has it hard at the best of times. To have a leader acting as a mouthpiece for Russia whilst Russia is invading a European country? Just another reminder of why the left cannot be trusted to protect our country, and why we have to continue voting Tory to keep them out.

[Lusty]

I've seen him use that line 'all wars end in negotiation' before and it's clearly not true is it?  Sometimes the aggressor just outright wins, annexes the territory and commits genocide against the previous residents.

Also, WW2 is a pretty big elephant in that room. No one was offering terms to Hitler (or Hirohito) thankfully.

[Yorkykopite]

I've seen him use that line 'all wars end in negotiation' before and it's clearly not true is it?  Sometimes the aggressor just outright wins, annexes the territory and commits genocide against the previous residents.

Also, WW2 is a pretty big elephant in that room. No one was offering terms to Hitler (or Hirohito) thankfully.

It's absolute bollocks of course.

Britain did not sit down for peace negotiations with Argentina. They booted the junta out of the Falklands. The UN did not sit down for peace negotiations with Saddam Hussein. They booted his army out of Kuwait. Vietnam did not decide to compromise with the United States. The US got out of Vietnam lock stock and barrel. The German Imperial Army did not sit down and negotiate with Corbyn's beloved Bolsheviks at Brest Litovsk in 1918. They simply chopped huge bits off the Russian state and gave them as a present to themselves.

Corbyn does not want a Ukraine victory at the expense of his old friend Putin because he fears it will be dressed up as a victory for NATO (he's not even thinking about Ukraine, which means nothing to him). As always he is driven primarily by an anti-Western and anti-democratic agenda. It has become a little bit embarrassing to be hustling for Putin in recent years because Putin has been exposed to the entire world as a Fascist mass murderer, and therefore Jezza has to do more throat-clearing than he would like before he is allowed to get to his main point. His main point remains however: "I support Putin against the West. I hope he stays in power."

[Yorkykopite]

Democracy Now is a US organisation, so they may not be too up to date with UK party political details.

They're meant to be effing journalists!

Corbyn is NOTHING without the Labour name. They know it. He knows it. He's trading under a false name. They know it.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Mr Stupid is at it again:

https://twitter.com/democracynow/status/1616427648393134082

Living abroad, I was not really aware of Corbyn before Brexit. And I was never that interested in the factional left of the Labour Party back in the day. But my instinct of Corbyn around the time of the Referendum (and certainly after) is that he is not purely some ineffectual cardigan-wearing old duffer with stupid ideas, but that he is in actuality a monumental c*nt. Events ever since Salisbury and his transparent support for Putin then and now have borne out my older gut reaction. To mirror Sangria's comments above, maybe one day someone will write an alternative history novel where Corbyn became PM. As bad as everything is now in the UK - and I cannot quite believe I am writing this - under a Corbyn Government, it might have been even worse. I loath the man.

[Sangria]

Living abroad, I was not really aware of Corbyn before Brexit. And I was never that interested in the factional left of the Labour Party back in the day. But my instinct of Corbyn around the time of the Referendum (and certainly after) is that he is not purely some ineffectual cardigan-wearing old duffer with stupid ideas, but that he is in actuality a monumental c*nt. Events ever since Salisbury and his transparent support for Putin then and now have borne out my older gut reaction. To mirror Sangria's comments above, maybe one day someone will write an alternative history novel where Corbyn became PM. As bad as everything is now in the UK - and I cannot quite believe I am writing this - under a Corbyn Government, it might have been even worse. I loath the man.

I doubt a Corbyn-led government would be any worse than this current one. However, the damage Corbyn does is to the impression of the left, and how much needs to be done to repair said impression. Why the centre-left reflexively looks right is because there are certain impressions that are hugely damaging to the left. It's why the Tories always want to shift the political argument to these areas. In Corbyn, we have someone who embodies these things in reality, and not just by media depiction. His words on Ukraine since the invasion have absolutely confirmed this.

It's ironic that his followers still hold a grudge against Labour for kicking him out. Thank goodness Labour kicked him out as early as they did, thus distancing the party from his utterings on Ukraine, which can be shrugged off as the rantings of an idiot who has nothing to do with Labour.

[Jiminy Cricket]

I doubt a Corbyn-led government would be any worse than this current one. However, the damage Corbyn does is to the impression of the left, and how much needs to be done to repair said impression. Why the centre-left reflexively looks right is because there are certain impressions that are hugely damaging to the left. It's why the Tories always want to shift the political argument to these areas. In Corbyn, we have someone who embodies these things in reality, and not just by media depiction. His words on Ukraine since the invasion have absolutely confirmed this.

I would hope and expect that a Labour Government would have not tanked the economy like the Tories have done. However, Corbyn was a supporter of Brexit, even if he did not have the spine to actually say it straight. So, there is that. But what I was thinking about is the spanners Corbyn would have thrown into the works in support for Ukraine from NATO: does NATO operate a veto system in such decisions?

It's ironic that his followers still hold a grudge against Labour for kicking him out. Thank goodness Labour kicked him out as early as they did, thus distancing the party from his utterings on Ukraine, which can be shrugged off as the rantings of an idiot who has nothing to do with Labour.

It is fortunate for the Party that he is gone. And there appears to be, rightfully, zero chance of him being readmitted. It is quite staggering that this man was actually leader of the party less than three years ago.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Corbyn always has been and always will be a fucking snidey prick who (correct me if I'm wrong)hasn't done a damn thing in all his years in office.

[Lusty]

It's absolute bollocks of course.

Britain did not sit down for peace negotiations with Argentina. They booted the junta out of the Falklands. The UN did not sit down for peace negotiations with Saddam Hussein. They booted his army out of Kuwait. Vietnam did not decide to compromise with the United States. The US got out of Vietnam lock stock and barrel. The German Imperial Army did not sit down and negotiate with Corbyn's beloved Bolsheviks at Brest Litovsk in 1918. They simply chopped huge bits off the Russian state and gave them as a present to themselves.

Corbyn does not want a Ukraine victory at the expense of his old friend Putin because he fears it will be dressed up as a victory for NATO (he's not even thinking about Ukraine, which means nothing to him). As always he is driven primarily by an anti-Western and anti-democratic agenda. It has become a little bit embarrassing to be hustling for Putin in recent years because Putin has been exposed to the entire world as a Fascist mass murderer, and therefore Jezza has to do more throat-clearing than he would like before he is allowed to get to his main point. His main point remains however: "I support Putin against the West. I hope he stays in power."

I think Putin is going for something along the lines of the Third Punic War to be honest.

[Yorkykopite]

It's ironic that his followers still hold a grudge against Labour for kicking him out. Thank goodness Labour kicked him out as early as they did, thus distancing the party from his utterings on Ukraine, which can be shrugged off as the rantings of an idiot who has nothing to do with Labour.

I actually think that Labour party membership might have tempered some of his views, just as being the leader of the Labour party did. He's often called "a man of principle" but in reality he trims as much as any other politician, and maybe more than most. Now, not being a Labour MP, he can tell the world that Putin should come away from this invasion of Ukraine with large gains in territory and a seat at the top table. And part of the 'peace negotiations' that Corbyn wants is bound to include Ukraine forsaking any hope of being part of NATO or the EU. If the man had any residual hope of being accepted back into the PLP he'd have kept these quisling views to himself I think.

He's a bit like his old buddy Chris Williamson, the former Derby MP. For several years this Jew-hater said he was opposed to Israel not Jews. As soon as he was evicted from the Labour party he was free to hate Jews explicitly - and did.

[Yorkykopite]

Corbyn always has been and always will be a fucking snidey prick who (correct me if I'm wrong)hasn't done a damn thing in all his years in office.

If you include being president of STWC, then he did stop the war in Syria. He hosted that celebratory victory in Westminster square remember. Thank goodness they did stop that war too since it could have involved huge loss of life.

[baltic out here]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/22/ukraine-is-fighting-for-all-of-us-now-europe-must-fight-putin-too

This sums it up. NATO and Europe were too slow and cowardly to react, everyone of course always looking out for themselves first, not realising this will affect all the worse it gets (imagine if they had the aircraft at the start of the invasion that is now being suggested, the ork convoys would have been sitting ducks). And now, a fucken year later, Germany is still the ball-less midway man it has been trying to be for half a century, still hesitant in sending but some tanks. The new large-scale offensive will mean an already desperate Ukraine will be pulverised even further into the cold winter ground, fighters, men, women, children, homes, hospitals. The orks won't stop and right now the situation has now-or-never written all over it.
In fantasy terms, Ukraine is Osgiliath, the orks will spill over once they've taken that.

[nayia2002]

I can see this escalating/ending into nuclear war unfortunately 

[Yorkykopite]

I can see this escalating/ending into nuclear war unfortunately 

"Unfortunately" 

[Jiminy Cricket]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/22/ukraine-is-fighting-for-all-of-us-now-europe-must-fight-putin-too

This sums it up. NATO and Europe were too slow and cowardly to react, everyone of course always looking out for themselves first, not realising this will affect all the worse it gets (imagine if they had the aircraft at the start of the invasion that is now being suggested, the ork convoys would have been sitting ducks). And now, a fucken year later, Germany is still the ball-less midway man it has been trying to be for half a century, still hesitant in sending but some tanks. The new large-scale offensive will mean an already desperate Ukraine will be pulverised even further into the cold winter ground, fighters, men, women, children, homes, hospitals. The orks won't stop and right now the situation has now-or-never written all over it.
In fantasy terms, Ukraine is Osgiliath, the orks will spill over once they've taken that.

I'm not so sure. What does Jeremy have to say about this?

[Jiminy Cricket]

"Unfortunately" 

A bit of a shame, yes.

[Yorkykopite]

A bit of a shame, yes.

I'll have to remember to carry an umbrella next week.

[reddebs]

I can see this escalating/ending into nuclear war unfortunately 

I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't the best option now.

Hear me out. 

Even though it would be disastrous for the planet and mankind it might wake up the dozy twats who seem blinkered to the evil that lives amongst us.

Those who 'are' prepared to destroy everything in the name of power, a show of strength and an utter contempt for anyone who doesn't have the same view as them.

It's time for far more scrutiny of the tangled web of world trade, corruption, investments, who owns what and who controls who.