Author Topic: General political discussion Part II  (Read 98678 times)

Offline classycarra

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #880 on: October 10, 2019, 10:56:37 am »
Also interesting to see some of the reasons for concern, Starmer saying that he was out canvassing in Camden at the weekend and seeing little sign that Labour were regaining Remain supporters lost to the LibDems. Also apparently concern about the prospect of Labour not being able to get its vote out as effectively as the Tories in a mid winter election in bad weather.

Strictly anecdotally, where I've moved (in Starmer's constituency) on my walk to the tube I always see a load of people's vote official (and unofficial) signs in windows, a couple of EU flags and a handful of LD signs. Never seen any other party's. One of the neighbours canvassed for the Lib Dems during the Euro elections, having always voted Labour previously.

Obviously this is only representative of certain passionate supporters but ties in with what that reports about Starmer.

Offline kavah

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #881 on: October 10, 2019, 11:27:05 am »
Corbyn’s election speech is very appealing
I Ike the idea of a National Care Service and free education for all.
1,000,000 new council homes.
And especially the end of the Tory austerity. 

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #882 on: October 10, 2019, 11:57:45 am »
Corbyn’s election speech is very appealing
I Ike the idea of a National Care Service and free education for all.
1,000,000 new council homes.
And especially the end of the Tory austerity.
Sounds more like he did a stint on Jackanory.
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Offline 24/7

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #883 on: October 10, 2019, 12:00:02 pm »
Corbyn’s election speech is very appealing
I Ike the idea of a National Care Service and free education for all.
1,000,000 new council homes.
And especially the end of the Tory austerity. 

Did that speech come with illustrations as well, plus tucking the kids in to sleep at 8pm?

Offline clinical

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #884 on: October 10, 2019, 01:00:05 pm »
Corbyn’s election speech is very appealing
I Ike the idea of a National Care Service and free education for all.
1,000,000 new council homes.
And especially the end of the Tory austerity.

His policies sounded great. In no way possible or realistic, but great all the same. .

I'm not sure where he thinks all this money is coming from: tax large companies and the rich and many will just leave. So it will be the regular working man hit again. Whilst the rich get richer finding the loopholes or moving away.

Need to get realistic centre/lefts back in power imo. But I'm sure many will disagree
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 01:02:38 pm by clinical »
Thank Fowler we're not getting Caulker

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #885 on: October 10, 2019, 06:30:56 pm »
MP Chris Williamson loses anti-Semitism suspension appeal

An MP has lost his High Court bid to be reinstated to the Labour Party after he was suspended in an anti-Semitism row.

Chris Williamson was suspended in February after claiming Labour had "been too apologetic" in its response to criticism of handling allegations.

He was reinstated in June but was suspended again after a backlash from MPs, peers and Jewish groups.

However the judge also ruled Labour acted unlawfully when it reopened the disciplinary case against the MP.

The Derby North MP remains suspended from the party but he said he would continue to fight to clear his name.

In his ruling, Mr Justice Pepperall said the Labour Party "acted unfairly in that there was no proper reason for reopening the case against Mr Williamson".

However, he said there was "nothing in the new allegations, the timing of the letter of 3 September or the decision to suspend that entitles me to take the view upon the papers that the Labour party is acting either unfairly or other than in good faith".

"I therefore refuse relief in respect of Mr Williamson's recent re-suspension. The new disciplinary case must run its course."

Mr Justice Pepperall said: "It is important to stress at the outset of this judgement that this case is not about whether Mr Williamson is, or is not, anti-Semitic or even whether he has, or has not, breached the rules of the Labour Party.

"The issue is whether the party has acted lawfully in its investigation and prosecution of such charges against Mr Williamson."

Outside the court, Mr Williamson called the judgement a "clear victory for justice and due process" after his suspension was deemed unlawful.

He said it was a "damning indictment of our party's internal disciplinary procedures" and that the party's bureaucracy "had been defeated in the courts".

However, he added: "I never expected, nor wanted, to be in a position where I was forced to take legal action against the party to which I have devoted my life."

The party member of nearly 44 years said he believed his suspension was down to "forces hostile to Jeremy Corbyn's leadership".

A Labour Party spokeswoman said: "The court has upheld Chris Williamson's suspension from the party and has said his disciplinary case must run its course."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-50002636

Offline Trada

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #886 on: October 10, 2019, 06:45:35 pm »
Here is the statement from Chris Williamson this afternoon, via 8 tweets issued on October 10, 4.30pm

‘The battle is won. The war rages on. The High Court has today judged that the Labour Party acted unlawfully in re-suspending me on 28 June, and “that there was no proper reason” for doing so. I’m glad the ‘re-suspension’ has been quashed. However, I’m currently suspended.

It’s clear that my ‘re-suspension’ was motivated by media hysteria. The judge said: “it is not … difficult to infer that the true reason for the decision in this case was that [NEC] members … were influenced by the ferocity of the outcry following the June decision.”

In fact, the party’s decision was so unfair as to be unlawful. And that’s why my ‘re-suspension’ has been quashed, and all of the allegations presented in that suspension can no longer be pursued against me.

Yet a week prior to my court hearing – using every loophole in the book – the party bureaucracy issued me with a new suspension. based on a series of preposterous allegations that I answered fully and swiftly. Due to this, despite winning today, the latest suspension stands.

I know this will be a bitter disappointment to everyone who has supported me in this case. I’m outraged that membership subscriptions given by our loyal activists have been used to pay legal fees. I’m outraged that I’ve had to resort to legal means to achieve justice.

This is a damning indictment of our party’s internal disciplinary procedures, which require a total overhaul – towards a fairer, more independent and more democratic system. My suspension must now be lifted.

I will be focussing my energies, as we all should, on winning the next election. Because a Jeremy Corbyn-led Labour government could transform the lives of millions, by bringing about an irreversible shift in the balance of wealth power and income in our country.

I would like to express my thanks and appreciation to my family, my supporters and everyone who generously donated to my crowdfunder. Without you, this victory today wouldn’t have been possible. You are the living proof that ‘unity is strength’.’
Chris Williamson MP   
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #887 on: October 10, 2019, 06:52:19 pm »
So the long and short answer seems to be Corbyn's a wannabe dictator that wants to purge the party of any dissent but is fine with friends even if they are anti-semetics?
If you rely on Rawk to form your opinion on Corbyn then yes another Hitler ...  ;D
However in the real world, things are somewhat different.
ps
I note you have similar problems in the US with people conflating the critism of one thing with that of another..."It's all about the Benjamins baby"   ;)

Offline classycarra

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #888 on: October 10, 2019, 07:09:07 pm »
What do you make of him Trada? I reckon he comes across as a daft c*nt.

My personal highlights:

"The battle is won. The war rages on."  ;D what needs to be said

"the party bureaucracy issued me with a new suspension. based on a series of preposterous allegations that I answered fully and swiftly" but not successfully ;D

"Due to this, despite winning today, the latest suspension stands." Winning without winning :) Poor everton, to be fair, I shouldn't associate them with such a c*nt.

"I’m outraged that membership subscriptions given by our loyal activists have been used to pay legal fees." What an outrage, that I have caused entirely on my own ;D

"party’s internal disciplinary procedures, which require a total overhaul – towards a fairer, more independent and more democratic system. My suspension must now be lifted." he reckons disciplinary matters should be democratic? Or is he just churning out word soup that he knows some corbyn fans love?

"I will be focussing my energies, as we all should, on winning the next election." cool man. "everyone who generously donated to my crowdfunder. Without you, this victory today wouldn’t have been possible. " what victory ;D have you considered that perhaps you could have saved those members subscriptions being wasted, and even added to them from your crowdfunder given your apparent belief in 'the project', instead of this going through the motions exercise for something

I wonder if Williamson excludes antisemite Stephen Marks from his criticism of the disciplinary process
https://antisemitism.uk/jewish-voice-for-labour-member-stephen-marks-who-defended-jackie-walker-is-re-elected-to-labours-disciplinary-body/

Perhaps this is what he meant by "more democratic", which is often code for 'add more regressive left weirdos with issues about jewish people'

Offline classycarra

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #889 on: October 10, 2019, 07:17:26 pm »
If you rely on Rawk to form your opinion on Corbyn then yes another Hitler ...  ;D
However in the real world, things are somewhat different.

Another poster attacking RAWK because people on it criticise Corbyn, another poster who is incapable of offering even one counter argument about why lots of people in the UK think he's quite shit. Just like the one yesterday about the lib dens.

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #890 on: October 10, 2019, 07:18:19 pm »
Corbyn’s election speech is very appealing
I Ike the idea of a National Care Service and free education for all.
1,000,000 new council homes.
And especially the end of the Tory austerity. 

New council houses?  Totally agree.  Housing has to change
National care service? At the moment it’s a load of claptrap.  I know that social care has been devastated by Tory cuts, but calling something a national care service means nothing.  And I don’t trust Corbyn et al to set up anything that will actually work.

Free education for all? In principle yes.  But, and it’s a huge but... who does this benefit?  This overwhelmingly benefits the middle classes. It’s an enormous spending gift for them.
The question I ask myself is ‘ should we be giving enormous spending breaks to the middle classes when we’ve got nurses eating from food banks?’

The answer is no.  It shouldn’t be a priority. Instead give very generous bursaries to people from disadvantaged families to ensure they can go and study and there are no barriers to access for them.


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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #891 on: October 10, 2019, 07:54:40 pm »
Kezia Dugdale has quit the Labour party over their Brexit stance.

Maybe her SNP MSP partner is finally talking her round.  ;)

Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #892 on: October 10, 2019, 08:04:42 pm »
Another poster attacking RAWK because people on it criticise Corbyn several times a day, eveyday for the last four years, another poster who is incapable of offering even one counter argument about why lots of people in the UK think he's quite shit. Just like the one yesterday about the lib dens.
"attacking RAWK "  ;D
I was wrong to blame the state of British politics on "radicals like you"...









Fanatics is what I actually meant. 

 

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #893 on: October 10, 2019, 08:19:11 pm »
Kezia Dugdale has quit the Labour party over their Brexit stance.

Maybe her SNP MSP partner is finally talking her round.  ;)

Speaking of whom...

Nicola Sturgeon: 'No shortcut route to Scottish independence'

Scotland's first minister has insisted that a legal referendum is the only way for the country to win independence.

Nicola Sturgeon dismissed claims that the SNP winning a majority of Scottish seats in a general election would be enough for independence to be declared.

She said there was "no easy or shortcut route to independence" and that a future referendum had to be "beyond any doubt in terms of its legitimacy".

But she insisted that independence was now closer than ever.

The SNP leader was speaking to BBC Scotland's political editor Brian Taylor ahead of her party's three-day conference, which opens in Aberdeen on Sunday afternoon.

Ms Sturgeon has repeatedly said she wants to hold a second referendum on independence next year - but the move has been ruled out by the UK government.

And she is facing mounting pressure from some SNP activists and MPs, as well as others in the wider independence movement, to adopt a so-called Plan B if consent for a referendum is not granted.

There have been calls for an unofficial independence referendum to be held, similar to the disputed one in Catalonia in 2017.

And others, including MP Angus MacNeil, have suggested that winning a majority of Scottish seats at Westminster should be enough for independence negotiations to begin without the need for a referendum - which was once the SNP's official policy.

However Ms Sturgeon insisted: "I have campaigned for independence all of my life. If there was an easy or shortcut route I would have taken it by now.

"We have to demonstrate majority support for independence in a process that is legal and legitimate and that crucially - not just domestically in the UK but internationally and in Europe in particular - will be accepted. That is the right way to go."

A general election is widely expected to be held before the end of the year, which Ms Sturgeon said would offer Scottish voters the chance to demonstrate their support for a referendum and independence.

But she pointed out that the SNP has previously won a majority of Scottish seats in a general election on a minority of the votes.

And she said "nobody in Europe would listen to me in terms of the legitimacy of that" if she was to claim it was a mandate for independence.

The SNP leader added: "I am absolutely confident we will win independence sooner rather than later, but the only way to do that is to clearly demonstrate that the majority of people in Scotland want it.

"I think we're closer to that than we've ever been before and we should stick with that course, because it's the right one and ultimately it will be the successful one".

Ms Sturgeon also rejected suggestions that a referendum might ultimately be delivered by a different leader, after Mr MacNeil spoke of fellow MP Joanna Cherry as "the next SNP leader in waiting".

She said: "With the greatest of respect, I'm the leader of the SNP. For as long as I'm leader, which is entirely down to my party, I'll continue to take the steps I think are right for my party and right in terms of achieving independence.

"I've worked for that goal all my adult life, and I believe heart and head that if we keep playing with the heid, that we're closer to achieving it than ever before."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50002776

I'm glad that it sounds like she's not keen on the idea of an unofficial independence referendum. I sympathise with the frustration of having to get agreement from Westminster on a 2nd indy ref but a Catalonia type situation is the last thing anyone in the UK needs right now.

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #894 on: October 10, 2019, 08:26:33 pm »
Speaking of whom...


I agree. There may come a time when something like that is necessary but there is ways to go before that. It is ridiculous that we have toask in the first place though - imagine if we had to ask for permission from the EU for the Brexit referendum? (Although I suspect many wouldn't mind that  ;D)

She is under a lot of pressure from the more fundamental wing of the party who are runnig out of patience.

Offline Trada

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #895 on: October 10, 2019, 08:56:31 pm »
What do you make of him Trada? I reckon he comes across as a daft c*nt.

My personal highlights:

"The battle is won. The war rages on."  ;D what needs to be said

"the party bureaucracy issued me with a new suspension. based on a series of preposterous allegations that I answered fully and swiftly" but not successfully ;D

"Due to this, despite winning today, the latest suspension stands." Winning without winning :) Poor everton, to be fair, I shouldn't associate them with such a c*nt.

"I’m outraged that membership subscriptions given by our loyal activists have been used to pay legal fees." What an outrage, that I have caused entirely on my own ;D

"party’s internal disciplinary procedures, which require a total overhaul – towards a fairer, more independent and more democratic system. My suspension must now be lifted." he reckons disciplinary matters should be democratic? Or is he just churning out word soup that he knows some corbyn fans love?

"I will be focussing my energies, as we all should, on winning the next election." cool man. "everyone who generously donated to my crowdfunder. Without you, this victory today wouldn’t have been possible. " what victory ;D have you considered that perhaps you could have saved those members subscriptions being wasted, and even added to them from your crowdfunder given your apparent belief in 'the project', instead of this going through the motions exercise for something

I wonder if Williamson excludes antisemite Stephen Marks from his criticism of the disciplinary process
https://antisemitism.uk/jewish-voice-for-labour-member-stephen-marks-who-defended-jackie-walker-is-re-elected-to-labours-disciplinary-body/

Perhaps this is what he meant by "more democratic", which is often code for 'add more regressive left weirdos with issues about jewish people'

He won the court case which was about the MPs forcing the NEC to suspend him again after he was cleared. But when the party thought he was going to win the case they suspended him again while the case was going on and the judge couldn't rule on that one because it's still an open case.

The 2nd suspension was for saying the dispensary procedure needing changing. something loads of MPs have said and for sharing a video of Prof Finkelstein criticising Hodge which 1000s of other people also shared.
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #896 on: October 10, 2019, 09:00:32 pm »
He won the court case which was about the MPs forcing the NEC to suspend him again after he was cleared. But when the party thought he was going to win the case they suspended him again while the case was going on and the judge couldn't rule on that one because it's still an open case.

The 2nd suspension was for saying the dispensary procedure needing changing. something loads of MPs have said and for sharing a video of Prof Finkelstein criticising Hodge which 1000s of other people also shared.
So he didn’t overturn what has happened

Why?

Because he been unashamedly antisemitic.

Think on that, you’re backing an antisemite.
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Offline idontknow

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #897 on: October 10, 2019, 09:13:06 pm »
I live in Los Angeles, CA.  Whether I have a Labour, Lib Dem or Tory attitude down to a T doesn't matter.  I didn't respond further as the other poster had it right in that my concerns about LFC are really immaterially to the millions that will be affected by this.

With that said I think Corbyn is the worst Labour leader in generations and if Labour had a competent leader in place they would be in power right now.
As I said, a day or two ago you were asking questions, now you have a 100% view.  It's good to keep things clear and simple.
It is a machine. It is more stupid than we are. It will not stop us from doing stupid things.

Offline BrandoLFC

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #898 on: October 11, 2019, 05:40:17 am »
If you rely on Rawk to form your opinion on Corbyn then yes another Hitler ...  ;D
However in the real world, things are somewhat different.
ps
I note you have similar problems in the US with people conflating the critism of one thing with that of another..."It's all about the Benjamins baby"   ;)

I don't really have another avenue to ask UK based people if I'm wrong.  While not your fault it is what it is. 

Not really sure what you mean about conflating criticism with money. 

As I said, a day or two ago you were asking questions, now you have a 100% view.  It's good to keep things clear and simple.

I'm asking questions to clarify why something that seems so simple to me in practice is not.  Johnson and the Tories seem to not enjoy majority backing while having no policies that a majority of the people could get behind.  So as an opposition party it's pretty clear cut that you embrace those majority agreed policy positions and you ride that to victory.  Instead it's time to purge the party of non-believes are adopt Brexit friendly policies?  What?

Offline Zeb

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #899 on: October 11, 2019, 01:00:40 pm »
FT claiming that in the last shadow cabinet meeting, both McDonnell and Starmer spoke about the dangers of an early election, with McDonnell calling it a trap, but Corbyn himself still seems keen.

Also interesting to see some of the reasons for concern, Starmer saying that he was out canvassing in Camden at the weekend and seeing little sign that Labour were regaining Remain supporters lost to the LibDems. Also apparently concern about the prospect of Labour not being able to get its vote out as effectively as the Tories in a mid winter election in bad weather.

https://www.ft.com/content/de5c99c6-eaac-11e9-85f4-d00e5018f061

McDonnell's interview with Campbell for GQ sounds like it will be a fascinating marker from the internal politicking perspective.

Bits of it here: https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/politics/article/john-mcdonnell-brexit-interview-2019

Quote
AC: I do understand the logic of the policy but Jeremy is standing to be prime minister while trying to make something of being neutral on the single biggest issue facing the country. You're not neutral?

JM: No, but what I'm also saying is that people have got to have a choice before them and the issue for me is that the first principle is letting the people decide. We're at that stage now where we've exhausted every other route we possibly can and so it’s back to the people.

AC: Do you agree with me that there shouldn't be an election?

JM: I'm more of the view that we've said up until now that we want a general election. That, of course, is what our objective is, but let’s see what actually parliament will wear in the end. Within parliament itself there is a large number of people who are saying we'd rather have a referendum attached to any deal.

AC: What would you rather have?

JM: I want a general election, actually. I would like a general election.

AC: Do you think Brexit can be resolved in a general election?

JM: I think there is the potential for that but we'll see over the coming couple of weeks. It's a limited timescale. I'm not sure there is a majority on the floor of the House Of Commons for a referendum before a general election but I'm a bit more nuanced about that. I just really want to say whatever we do we've got to block no deal, whichever is the best route.

AC: What about if an election leads to another hung parliament? Is there any doubt that there has to be a referendum?

JM: I don't think there is any doubt about a referendum. If it was a general election first or a referendum first, it doesn't matter.

AC: So, it has to happen?

JM: It's got to happen, yes. If we get elected into government we've said we'll go back to the people with a referendum. If there is a hung parliament I think there may well be a majority for going for the referendum, yes.

Usual routine for major policy shifts is for McDonnell to head out and fly the kite first. Wonder how long he'll remain content with just choosing the king's new advisors. 
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #900 on: October 11, 2019, 03:49:26 pm »
McDonnell's interview with Campbell for GQ sounds like it will be a fascinating marker from the internal politicking perspective.

Bits of it here: https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/politics/article/john-mcdonnell-brexit-interview-2019

Usual routine for major policy shifts is for McDonnell to head out and fly the kite first. Wonder how long he'll remain content with just choosing the king's new advisors.

Corbyn to step down as leader if Labour doesn't win general election, McDonnell says

Quote
Jeremy Corbyn will quit if Labour loses the general election expected within months, says his key ally John McDonnell – promising to follow him out of the door.

The shadow chancellor insisted Labour could win a Commons majority – despite the party’s disastrous poll ratings – but admitted the price of failure would be resignation.

Asked if Mr Corbyn could “stay on”, Mr McDonnell replied: “I can't see so. What we'd do is as the tradition, which is have an election for a new leader.”

Speaking to Alastair Campbell, in an interview for GQ magazine, he also said: “I think it is the same for my own personal position.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-resign-leader-general-election-mcdonnell-latest-a9151986.html

For a lot of people, that's an incentive to not vote Labour.

Offline Circa1892

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #901 on: October 11, 2019, 03:53:11 pm »
For a lot of people, that's an incentive to not vote Labour.

Not so sure. I don't think there is any viable route to a Labour victory in an election in the near future, but nobody wants to see them decimated.

Offline Zeb

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #902 on: October 11, 2019, 04:37:36 pm »
Corbyn was stepping down if he lost the 2017 election too. Fortunately he won it, of course.
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #903 on: October 11, 2019, 06:22:42 pm »
It might be an incentive for some Tories to vote Labour.
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #904 on: October 11, 2019, 06:28:11 pm »
The loons look to be turning on McDonnell now

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #905 on: October 11, 2019, 06:41:05 pm »
At this point we should all note that they’re said they’d step down if they didn’t win the last one.


They aren’t exactly true to their word

The loons look to be turning on McDonnell now

Turns out the Marxist is a Blairite schill after decades of virtually being communist. :lmao

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #906 on: October 11, 2019, 06:54:03 pm »
Decent article from earlier in the summer arguing for this sort of shift from Labour, away from the StWC advisors and regrouping around the more effective McDonnell, a clearer view on Brexit and cutting away the lunatic fringe.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/14/labour-positive-change-faction-fighting-antisemitism-brexit
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #907 on: October 11, 2019, 06:55:06 pm »
The loons look to be turning on McDonnell now
Cheerleaders Galloway and Mendoza. They're worried.
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #909 on: October 11, 2019, 07:06:28 pm »
https://twitter.com/IveBeenGagged/status/1182362771037605888
Interesting comments below it. The bulk of Labour party membership wanted a shift to the left, but isn't so blinded by the cult that they support Milne, Murrary, Murphy etc.
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #910 on: October 11, 2019, 07:22:17 pm »
Decent article from earlier in the summer arguing for this sort of shift from Labour, away from the StWC advisors and regrouping around the more effective McDonnell, a clearer view on Brexit and cutting away the lunatic fringe.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/14/labour-positive-change-faction-fighting-antisemitism-brexit


McDonnell is more effective but I'm confused by idea anything bar presentation would change. eg You can't be serious about being 'ruthless' on antisemitism when you're the first port of call for support by those the party are expelling. It's a return to 'Not so loud lads'.

Still, obvious things are obvious to those sat round the shadow cabinet table if not to those more used to thinking retaining a deposit is a success.
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #911 on: October 11, 2019, 07:41:35 pm »
McDonnell is more effective but I'm confused by idea anything bar presentation would change. eg You can't be serious about being 'ruthless' on antisemitism when you're the first port of call for support by those the party are expelling. It's a return to 'Not so loud lads'.

Still, obvious things are obvious to those sat round the shadow cabinet table if not to those more used to thinking retaining a deposit is a success.
I'm not sure what your e.g. point is about (I may have missed some news), but I think generally McDonnell is more than just 'more effective'. He recognises the need for a broad church of views, pushed for the IHRA definition to be adopted, has quietly supported the Starmer/Thornberry shift on Brexit, etc. I think he's Labour's best chance within the current hierarchy for recognising that the party has to be about more than Iraq 2003 and Israel-Palestine, which are the only issues the fringe really gives a fuck about (however much they publicly complain about Tories and austerity). Not as leader (a few too many skeletons of his own, though he at least will openly acknowledge and contextualise them, when Corbyn just gets irritated).
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #912 on: October 11, 2019, 07:55:01 pm »
I'm not sure what your e.g. point is about (I may have missed some news), but I think generally McDonnell is more than just 'more effective'. He recognises the need for a broad church of views, pushed for the IHRA definition to be adopted, has quietly supported the Starmer/Thornberry shift on Brexit, etc. I think he's Labour's best chance within the current hierarchy for recognising that the party has to be about more than Iraq 2003 and Israel-Palestine, which are the only issues the fringe really gives a fuck about (however much they publicly complain about Tories and austerity). Not as leader (a few too many skeletons of his own, though he at least will openly acknowledge and contextualise them, when Corbyn just gets irritated).


In political terms, I'd agree with you on him being effective. He has a facility to express views he doesn't believe in with a credible seeming sincerity which Corbyn lacks. At the same time, I can't reconcile the article's hopes of substantive changes while the same group of people hold the levers within Labour. Perhaps presentation is enough? 

Example is him talking about 'being ruthless on antisemitism' to Campbell while he's still of the very same group of conspiracy cranks who've driven Corbyn's response to it.
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #913 on: October 11, 2019, 08:14:33 pm »
In political terms, I'd agree with you on him being effective. He has a facility to express views he doesn't believe in with a credible seeming sincerity which Corbyn lacks. At the same time, I can't reconcile the article's hopes of substantive changes while the same group of people hold the levers within Labour. Perhaps presentation is enough? 

Example is him talking about 'being ruthless on antisemitism' to Campbell while he's still of the very same group of conspiracy cranks who've driven Corbyn's response to it.
I think that's my point - McDonnell is something of a counterpoint to the 'same group'. While he was against the Iraq war for instance, it doesn't define him in the way it defines Corbyn. His early day motions and interests are much broader, much more domestically focused, much more modern and changing over time. He has real links to more forward looking movements on the left, such as the NEF and tax reform advocates - issues Corbyn has really shown no discernible interest in over his career. He's also shown a willingness to work with and talk to people Corbyn wouldn't be seen dead with.

He's not perfect, and I don't want him as leader - but a shift that sees McDonnell's influence increase over that of the M's is likely good for the party.
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #914 on: October 11, 2019, 08:46:13 pm »
I think that's my point - McDonnell is something of a counterpoint to the 'same group'. While he was against the Iraq war for instance, it doesn't define him in the way it defines Corbyn. His early day motions and interests are much broader, much more domestically focused, much more modern and changing over time. He has real links to more forward looking movements on the left, such as the NEF and tax reform advocates - issues Corbyn has really shown no discernible interest in over his career. He's also shown a willingness to work with and talk to people Corbyn wouldn't be seen dead with.

He's not perfect, and I don't want him as leader - but a shift that sees McDonnell's influence increase over that of the M's is likely good for the party.


He's definitely a much smarter politician. He played agony aunt to the PLP for a fair while until it became clear that nothing ever changed after talking to him. Do agree with you on him being more astute, seems to be more intellectually curious and open to new ideas, and does carry a fair amount of baggage which makes him impossible to install as a PM for Tory rebels and would make for a bracing election campaign. As leader, he'd have a fine chance of nixing Johnson's hopes of persuading Labour leaning Brexiters to vote Tory.

Just that jump to meaningful shift in direction isn't something I see there. Although I can see the case for pragmatism in pursuit of power shaping that. Do wonder whether Long Bailey has the flexibility to bridge the gap McDonnell seems to be deliberately opening up on some issues.
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #915 on: October 11, 2019, 10:11:22 pm »
I don't really have another avenue to ask UK based people if I'm wrong.  While not your fault it is what it is. 

Not really sure what you mean about conflating criticism with money. 

I'm asking questions to clarify why something that seems so simple to me in practice is not.  Johnson and the Tories seem to not enjoy majority backing while having no policies that a majority of the people could get behind.  So as an opposition party it's pretty clear cut that you embrace those majority agreed policy positions and you ride that to victory.  Instead it's time to purge the party of non-believes are adopt Brexit friendly policies?  What?
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #916 on: October 12, 2019, 03:41:05 am »
Strange the Boris letter about Jennifer Arcuri, was leaked 12 hours ago personally I haven't seen it reported anywhere. Near enough telling them to keep their noses out of his business and it's not in the public interest.



« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 03:43:16 am by Trada »
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #917 on: October 12, 2019, 09:53:33 am »
McDonnell would be far more effective in ousting Corbyn and anyone else than Watson and the rest of the PLP have been. If he wants it done, then it will.

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #918 on: October 12, 2019, 01:45:45 pm »
McDonnell would be far more effective in ousting Corbyn and anyone else than Watson and the rest of the PLP have been. If he wants it done, then it will.

Not going to happen and in the very unlikely event, he did try the membership would turn on John before Jeremy you only have to look at the reaction because he did an interview with Campbell.
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #919 on: October 12, 2019, 02:34:41 pm »
I'd have thought subjects of EHRC investigations might not be near the top of Show Racism The Red Card's guest list.

https://twitter.com/SRTRC_England/status/1182749940969365505