Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1439966 times)

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,392
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24560 on: August 19, 2019, 01:51:28 pm »
Don't know who this is. Don't know which part of the Labour party they're from. But if it's ever revealed who's said it, make sure they're responsible for nothing more important than the choice of biscuits at meetings.

Mirror

In the words of Anand Menon, "WTAF".

McDonnell has been talking about constitutional practices and loves saying rulebook. He's be my guess.

Offline Trada

  • Fully paid up member of the JC cult. Ex-Tory boy. Corbyn's Chief Hagiographer. Sometimes hasn't got a kloop.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,800
  • Trada
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24561 on: August 19, 2019, 01:54:05 pm »

I don't find any of this funny.I used to laugh at people in your little gang but now you all just make my piss boil.


Do you have kids Dave ?

They asked the questions and he answered them.  Oh dear there was a few groans and back chat when they did I sure they are ok and won't be having a little cry about it.

It was a brilliant speech by Jeremy and great that it was shown live in full on BBCnews, Skynews and BBC2 that makes a change.
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

“I carry them with me: what they would have thought and said and done. Make them a part of who I am. So even though they’re gone from the world they’re never gone from me.

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,392
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24562 on: August 19, 2019, 01:55:29 pm »
It was a brilliant speech by Jeremy and great that it was shown live in full on BBCnews, Skynews and BBC2 that makes a change.

Amazing what can happen when the leader of the opposition decides to do their job and talk about the main issue facing the country, eh? Good to see him make a change.

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

  • Rockwool Marketing Board Spokesman. Cracker Wanker. Fucking calmest man on RAWK, alright? ALRIGHT?! Definitely a bigger cunt than YOU!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,210
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24563 on: August 19, 2019, 01:59:09 pm »
Have you thought of quitting this online politics thing ?

You do realise that only one of those posts was an actual reply to another member right ?


And I stand by both of them.
My cup, it runneth over, I'll never get my fill

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

  • Rockwool Marketing Board Spokesman. Cracker Wanker. Fucking calmest man on RAWK, alright? ALRIGHT?! Definitely a bigger cunt than YOU!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,210
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24564 on: August 19, 2019, 02:01:26 pm »
They asked the questions and he answered them.  Oh dear there was a few groans and back chat when they did I sure they are ok and won't be having a little cry about it.

It was a brilliant speech by Jeremy and great that it was shown live in full on BBCnews, Skynews and BBC2 that makes a change.


He could drop a vindaloo shit on your sleeping forehead and you'd announce how it was the greatest alarm clock and best start to the day ever.

He was asked twice about stepping aside if that was the only way to get a unity Gov & he failed to answer.

Do you have Kids ?
My cup, it runneth over, I'll never get my fill

Offline Mark Walters

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,482
  • * * * * * *
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24565 on: August 19, 2019, 02:13:49 pm »
“So once Article 50 is ­triggered we can pass ­legislation to untrigger it.”

That's not my point. For one, it's not up to Labour to revoke A50 as they're not in power. Secondly, given that Boris wants to shut down Parliament to leave with a ND despite the wishes of most of Parliament (and the mostly sensible people of this country), the only option would be to do it after the event. (Yes, legalities and all that but...!)
"Maybe in life it's impossible to give 100 per cent to your job. Okay, I'll accept 98 per cent" Rafa Benitez

Offline ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,790
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24566 on: August 19, 2019, 02:15:15 pm »
The party of Refrain

Quote
Labour could be officially neutral in any second referendum, John McDonnell suggests

...

This morning John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, has been giving interviews ahead of it. Here are the main points from what he told the Today programme.

    McDonnell said Labour was backing the call made by 100 MPs, from all the opposition parties and from the Conservatives, for parliament to be recalled. Asked if Labour supported the initiative, he replied:

    "I agree - I think it is a good initiative by this group of MPs to say that we need to get back into parliament. We are facing a critical issue here and should be debating it in parliament ...

    There is a need now to bring MPs back together again because we need time now to really have a proper debate and discussion about this matter.
"

But MPs are not due to return to the Commons until a fortnight tomorrow, and parliament only gets recalled during a recess in response to a request from the government. And Number 10 is firmly ruling out a recall.

    McDonnell reaffirmed Labour’s opposition to backing an interim government to stop a no-deal Brexit led by anyone other than Jeremy Corbyn. Asked to confirm that Labour would not support a vote in the Commons for someone else to lead an interim, cross-party government of this kind, McDonnell replied:

    "No, we won’t. We want to abide by the normal constitutional practice."


Labour argues that, if the prime minister loses the confidence of the Commons, the normal procedure is for the leader of the opposition to be invited to form a government.

    McDonnell said Corbyn would host talks with other opposition party leaders next week to discuss what could be done to prevent a no-deal Brexit. He said:

   "Jeremy is going to bring the [leaders] of the opposition parties together - he has already had some conversations - he will bring them together again next week and talk about how we go forward. We don’t believe [having an interim government led by someone other than Corbyn] is a negotiable issue."

    McDonnell said that a no confidence vote, leading to the establishment of a new government, was not the only mechanism available to prevent a no-deal Brexit. He said:

   "I think the big issue now is how do we prevent [no deal], and the no confidence motion is one mechanism.

    But, as Jeremy has said today, there’s other mechanisms people are looking at, other parliamentary mechanisms, and we want to have a proper discussion and dialogue on a cross-party basis on what those mechanisms are.
"

    McDonnell claimed there was growing support in the Commons for holding a second referendum. He said:

    "I think the opposition parties and reaching across to Conservative MPs as well, I think there is still a majority in parliament to say to Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson that we will not accept a no-deal.

    I think there is a gaining majority now to say we have to go back to the people in some form of public vote and that is, in my view, a referendum, that’s the Labour party policy now, and therefore we are narrowing down the discussion into what then goes on the ballot paper.
"

    He did not rule out the Labour party officially being neutral in any second referendum on Brexit. Labour has said it would go into a general election promising a referendum on Brexit, with voters given the choice between backing remain and a credible leave option. McDonnell said he personally would campaign for remain. But asked if he would be happy for the party as a whole to be “agnostic” on the issue, McDonnell replied:

    "That’s one of the issues we’ve got to debate in the party. You know our democratic processes. I know people get frustrated with this ... but we’re a democratic party."

Although most Labour members want to remain in the EU, the shadow cabinet is deeply divided on this issue and there have been hints before that Corbyn could resolve this tension by allowing Labour members to take either side in a second referendum, with the party machine staying neutral. This is broadly the approach Harold Wilson took in the 1975 referendum. Recently Corbyn told the shadow cabinet that he had been reading a Wilson biography to learn more about how the then prime minister handled that issue.

    McDonnell said a future Labour government could hold a second referendum before negotiating a new Brexit deal with Europe. When this idea was put to him, he said this was “one option” being looked at. But he also said that, if the party decided to negotiate a new Brexit deal first, before putting it to the people, that process could be concluded relatively quickly. He rejected the suggestion it would take a year. He explained:

"If you look at what’s happened in the past, the reason it has dragged on in the negotiations in the past, to find out what is credible and what is not, is because the options that have been put forward have not been credible."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/aug/19/brexit-latest-news-jeremy-corbyn-speech-labour-could-be-officially-neutral-in-any-second-referendum-campaign-john-mcdonnell-suggests-live-news?page=with:block-5d5a52128f084f687f359029#block-5d5a52128f084f687f359029


Quote
Corbyn's Q&A

Corbyn is now taking questions.

Q: You say you will do anything in your power to stop a no-deal Brexit. Would that include stepping aside as leader of a caretaker government?

Labour supporters in the audience shout “no”. At least one person says the question is a disgrace. They also complain when a second journalist suggests Corbyn does not have enough support to become PM himself.

Corbyn says he will do everthing to stop a no-deal Brexit.

He is leader of the opposition, he says. All the precedent is that the leader of the opposition should be given the chance to form a government when the government falls.

There is a lot of “what iffery” around, he says.

He says if Tory MPs and others are serious about stopping no deal, they should support his no confidence motion. They should “get on board”, he says.

    Corbyn says all MPs opposed to no deal should back him as PM of an interim government.

Q: Do you think parliament should be recalled immediately?

Yes, shout Labour members in the audience.

Corbyn says he does support the recall of parliament.

Q: Could Labour remain neutral in a second referendum on Brexit?

Corbyn says he wants to bring people together. There has to be an understanding of why particular communities voted leave. He is offering policies that would transform society, he says.

He says Labour would make sure people have the final say and the final choice.

    Corbyn refuses to rule out Labour officially remaining neutral in a second referendum on Brexit held after a general election.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/aug/19/brexit-latest-news-jeremy-corbyn-speech-labour-could-be-officially-neutral-in-any-second-referendum-campaign-john-mcdonnell-suggests-live-news?page=with:block-5d5a7c288f08c7e177d4d1b5#block-5d5a7c288f08c7e177d4d1b5

Quote
Corbyn refuses to commit to backing remain in second referendum

Q: Why do you think so many Labour MPs do not see you as the right person to lead an interim government?

Corbyn says he was elected Labour leader in 2015, to the surprise of the mainstream media. He was elected again in 2016. He is sure all Labour MPs want to join him in backing a no confidence motion against the government.

Q: John McDonnell said this morning he would campaign for remain in a second referendum. Would you? And if not, can you see why remainers have doubts about your leadership?

Corbyn says McDonnell was giving his personal view.

He says the real issue is what must be done to end inequality in Britain.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/aug/19/brexit-latest-news-jeremy-corbyn-speech-labour-could-be-officially-neutral-in-any-second-referendum-campaign-john-mcdonnell-suggests-live-news?page=with:block-5d5a7dff8f084f687f3591af#block-5d5a7dff8f084f687f3591af
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 02:18:42 pm by ShakaHislop »

Offline ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,790
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24567 on: August 19, 2019, 02:25:50 pm »
Threat to end freedom of movement overnight is reckless, say EU citizens

Ending freedom of movement for EU citizens immediately after a no-deal Brexit would be reckless and could create a hostile environment for European nationals, a campaign group has said.

The3million, a citizens group that represents the rights of EU nationals in the UK, was responding to the news that the home secretary, Priti Patel, intended to impose new border restrictions overnight on 31 October if Britain left the EU without a deal, despite reports that an internal government discussion paper had warned that doing so could present “legitimate concerns of another Windrush”.

The document also set out details of an alternative plan to maintain freedom of movement until January 2021 and to allow EU immigrants who came to the UK in the meantime to apply to stay under existing “settled status” rules.

But Home Office sources told the Times that the document did not reflect government thinking and that freedom of movement for people from EU countries would end “on October 31 should we leave without a deal”.

Amid reports that the government wishes to make the change through a statutory instrument – meaning that MPs would only be required to endorse the move after its implementation – the3million said the plan could open the way to mass discrimination.

The group renewed its call for all EU nationals to be automatically granted settled status and accused the prime minister, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, of undermining his promise to guarantee the rights and protections of EU citizens.

“The idea of ending freedom of movement abruptly on 31 October in case of no deal is reckless politics,” said Nicholas Hatton, the group’s founder. “It hollows out the prime minister’s unequivocal guarantee to EU citizens he has given only three weeks ago.

“Ending freedom of movement without putting legal provisions in place for those EU citizens who have not yet successfully applied through the settlement scheme will mean that millions of lawful citizens will have their legal status removed overnight.

“We have been calling for the settlement scheme to be a declaratory registration scheme, so all EU citizens who have made the UK their home are automatically granted status, as promised by those in government.

“Otherwise this will open the door to mass discrimination under the hostile environment, with employers, landlords, banks and the NHS unable to distinguish between those EU citizens with the right to live and work in the UK and those without.”

A Home Office spokesperson told the Independent: “The home secretary has been clear in her intention to take back control of our borders and end free movement after 31 October.

“Ending free movement means we are no longer required to give unlimited and uncontrolled access to those from EU countries when they are coming here seeking to work.”

The Home Office minister Brandon Lewis said last week that more than 1 million people had been granted settled or pre-settled status through the scheme, after 1,038,100 people applied by 31 July. It was unclear how many other EU nationals have since had their applications received.

The deadline for applying to the EU settlement scheme if the UK leaves the bloc without a deal is 31 December 2020.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/19/threat-to-end-freedom-of-movement-overnight-reckless-say-eu-citizens

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

  • FUCK THE POLICE - NWA
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 40,806
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24568 on: August 19, 2019, 02:33:10 pm »
Do you have to laugh?

Maybe naive to ask him confrontational questions in front of his hardcore fans, but they should be asking him these sorts of questions.

Did they ask him to 'stand down', or just accept someone else as temp leader of a unity government?
he does a speech comparing boris to trump and his supporters act like trump supporters to the media, not good optics, then again his supporters aren’t the brightest

Offline Mark Walters

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,482
  • * * * * * *
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24569 on: August 19, 2019, 02:40:39 pm »
Corbyn this, Corbyn that! ::) FFS, people need to wake up and smell the coffee.  It wasn't Corbyn that forced 10 years of austerity on this country that led disillusioned people to vote for Brexit. It's also not Corbyn's job to fix it unless there is a GE which votes the Labour party into power.  Perhaps the "Corbynistas" recognise that for the good of this country it's best to not cause even more turmoil in the Labour party than has already been caused by the media hyping the antisemitism thing while repeatedly failing to ask Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson about the "letterboxes" and "pickanninnies with watermelon smiles" in the same way that Clinton was hyped for her emails while Donald "grab them by the pussy" Trump was given a free ride! Perhaps the "Corbynistas" focus not on personalities but on policies and party manifestos instead and if the rest of the country did they same this country wouldn't be in the mess it is now!
"Maybe in life it's impossible to give 100 per cent to your job. Okay, I'll accept 98 per cent" Rafa Benitez

Offline ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,790
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24570 on: August 19, 2019, 02:42:20 pm »
Corbyn this, Corbyn that! ::) FFS, people need to wake up and smell the coffee.  It wasn't Corbyn that forced 10 years of austerity on this country that led disillusioned people to vote for Brexit. It's also not Corbyn's job to fix it unless there is a GE which votes the Labour party into power.  Perhaps the "Corbynistas" recognise that for the good of this country it's best to not cause even more turmoil in the Labour party than has already been caused by the media hyping the antisemitism thing while repeatedly failing to ask Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson about the "letterboxes" and "pickanninnies with watermelon smiles" in the same way that Clinton was hyped for her emails while Donald "grab them by the pussy" Trump was given a free ride! Perhaps the "Corbynistas" focus not on personalities but on policies and party manifestos instead and if the rest of the country did they same this country wouldn't be in the mess it is now!

So much wrong with this.

Corbyn's been in charge of Labour for 4 years out of the 9 of austerity and could have ended it 2 years ago, had he been able to lead Labour to victory in the GE that year. He didn't, he lost and was rejected by the public yet he refused to step down (as he did when the vast majority of his own MPs indicated they had no confidence in him)

You act as if Corbyn and Labour are completely helpless because they're not in government, which I completely disagree with. Furthermore, rather than try to "fix" Brexit, Corbyn has supported it going ahead for the 3 years since the vote and didn't even entertain the idea of any 2nd referendum for years, let alone one with an option to Remain. Calling him completely useless on the issue is being kind.

"Hyping" the antisemitism issue is effectively the same as calling the allegations smears, which is problematic in itself. Plus, the media did cover the "letterbox" comment from Johnson, as they have the allegations of Islamaphobia within the Tory party.

Claiming "Corbynistas" don't focus on personalities is laughable too, considering how sensitive they are to any criticism of their main man.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 02:54:29 pm by ShakaHislop »

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24571 on: August 19, 2019, 02:42:38 pm »
McDonnell has been talking about constitutional practices and loves saying rulebook. He's be my guess.

Ah would make sense. Most bizarre watching them attempt to invent things. Same thing with this idea that Leader of the Opposition is automatically next up to form a government if a government loses a VoNC. It's just daubing everything with crap to try and cover up their own failures and limitations.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Mark Walters

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,482
  • * * * * * *
"Maybe in life it's impossible to give 100 per cent to your job. Okay, I'll accept 98 per cent" Rafa Benitez

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,392
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24573 on: August 19, 2019, 02:53:17 pm »
Corbyn this, Corbyn that! ::) FFS, people need to wake up and smell the coffee.  It wasn't Corbyn that forced 10 years of austerity on this country that led disillusioned people to vote for Brexit. It's also not Corbyn's job to fix it unless there is a GE which votes the Labour party into power.  Perhaps the "Corbynistas" recognise that for the good of this country it's best to not cause even more turmoil in the Labour party than has already been caused by the media hyping the antisemitism thing while repeatedly failing to ask Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson about the "letterboxes" and "pickanninnies with watermelon smiles" in the same way that Clinton was hyped for her emails while Donald "grab them by the pussy" Trump was given a free ride! Perhaps the "Corbynistas" focus not on personalities but on policies and party manifestos instead and if the rest of the country did they same this country wouldn't be in the mess it is now!
Go on!
Let's start with those two highlighted parts then.

That thing you said about Corbyn's job. It's entirely incorrect. He and his office/cabinet collects a salary of taxpayers money to do exactly this. Are you really of the mind that the leader of the opposition just needs to hibernate for a few years between elections, and leave the government to it?

To suggest Corbyn fans are policy driven, and don't focus on personalty (or lack of it, in this clear Dunning-Kruger example), is a truly Orwellian take.


EDIT: sorry third one, didn't see it glancing at your post. your suggestion that Corbyn fans are rising above everything for the good of the country, despite the tough time they've had for having a mirror pointed at some of their antisemitism is just weird. The "hyping of antisemism" claim (and whining but the tories don't get told off when they do it) is simple apologism for bigots xenophobes and racists who ostensibly support Corbyn.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 03:02:07 pm by Classycara »

Offline ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,790
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,949
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24575 on: August 19, 2019, 02:56:05 pm »
Article 50.

"1.   Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements."

Was the decision to trigger Article 50 made according to Britain's constitutional requirements? Yes. Miller's case established that the bar to clear for that was Parliamentary approval to begin the Article 50 process. If Parliament wants to stop that process, it can legislate to make it so.

"3.   The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period."

Is Britain out of the EU on 31st October should it not agree an extension or revoke Article 50? Yes.

"5.   If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49."

Does Britain want to rejoin after leaving? Put in an application like everybody else.
However, it has been established in the European Court that the UK can unilaterally revoke Article 50. And since Withdrawal is a process (not just a single point in time), it would seem logical (to me, at least) that the withdrawal process be made (or is required to be) in accordance with the UK's constitution (such as it is). Or, has it been established that invoking Article 50 is the end of the constitutional requirements as far as Article 50 is concerned?

As for the second part: you long ago convinced me that rejoining will be technically very difficult. And, I think, politically impossible for a generation.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,392
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24576 on: August 19, 2019, 02:56:11 pm »
Ah would make sense. Most bizarre watching them attempt to invent things. Same thing with this idea that Leader of the Opposition is automatically next up to form a government if a government loses a VoNC. It's just daubing everything with crap to try and cover up their own failures and limitations.

I saw those phrases also pop up in that article above too, so I think there's a slight chance I'm right (for once).

He's their most effective and one of their most brazen liars, so it certainly is of the right scale to be coming from him.

This lie is just to allow Corbyn the chance to say "the real fight starts now" on 1st November, and argue that they will maybe reverse or maybe re-leave with a better no deal or something.

Offline Mark Walters

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,482
  • * * * * * *
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24577 on: August 19, 2019, 03:08:22 pm »
Let's start with those two highlighted parts then.

That thing you said about Corbyn's job. It's entirely incorrect. He and his office/cabinet collects a salary of taxpayers money to do exactly this. Are you really of the mind that the leader of the opposition just needs to hibernate for a few years between elections, and leave the government to it?

To suggest Corbyn fans are policy driven, and don't focus on personalty (or lack of it, in this clear Dunning-Kruger example), is a truly Orwellian take.
Erm...so what you're saying is that it's the leader of the opposition's job to somehow circumvent the government to overcome the impact that austerity has caused? Sure, he can complain about it and he can say this is what needs to be done to fix it (which he has) but to suggest that he has the power to do anything about it in terms of government policy is bizarre!

If Corbyn fans are not policy driven when everyone says he's weak, what is it that they're seeing that everyone else is not? Could it be they see a man of integrity that can't be bought and therefore won't be bent by the media, tax avoiding big business, thus also leading to a government that is first and foremost, fair unlike the current incumbents who are solely looking after their party's interests!
"Maybe in life it's impossible to give 100 per cent to your job. Okay, I'll accept 98 per cent" Rafa Benitez

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,949
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24578 on: August 19, 2019, 03:10:19 pm »
Erm...so what you're saying is that it's the leader of the opposition's job to somehow circumvent the government to overcome the impact that austerity has caused? Sure, he can complain about it and he can say this is what needs to be done to fix it (which he has) but to suggest that he has the power to do anything about it in terms of government policy is bizarre!

If Corbyn fans are not policy driven when everyone says he's weak, what is it that they're seeing that everyone else is not? Could it be they see a man of integrity that can't be bought and therefore won't be bent by the media, tax avoiding big business, thus also leading to a government that is first and foremost, fair unlike the current incumbents who are solely looking after their party's interests!
No. The job of 'Leader of the Opposition' is to oppose. It's in the effing title. It is a pretty easy concept to understand.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,395
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24579 on: August 19, 2019, 03:13:52 pm »
Well they are via the GoNU route,
We don't know what the bulk of the PLP think about a GoNU, or what they will do on a GoNU route, until a GoNU without Corbyn is actually proposed and put to a vote.

and they won't move to replace him as leader before a GE that is called without there being a GoNU,
They've tried, they've failed. They're not doing it again without some indication - a drastic shift in the membership, Momentum opposing Corbyn, or someone like McDonnell/Thornberry suggesting he stand down - that it might be successful.

in which case they would be campaigning for him to become PM.
We'll see. As I've said a number of times, I can't see how the current PLP can go into another election campaign with Corbyn as leader without very significant changes that there's no longer time for. But much depends on the timing of an election, any re-selection efforts in the coming weeks, how united the 'project' leadership looks to be at that stage and the mood at conference. For example, if the leadership wasn't shifting and a large chunk of the PLP intended to form a 'Real Labour' party, it would be tactically astute (if a bit underhanded) to do that after election nominations have closed.

To be clear - if an election is called, and Corbyn is leader, and the PLP meekly follows the leader and campaigns for Corbyn as PM, I'll resign my membership. I might even vote Lib Dem (in a Lab-Lib marginal).
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24580 on: August 19, 2019, 03:14:03 pm »
I saw those phrases also pop up in that article above too, so I think there's a slight chance I'm right (for once).

He's their most effective and one of their most brazen liars, so it certainly is of the right scale to be coming from him.

This lie is just to allow Corbyn the chance to say "the real fight starts now" on 1st November, and argue that they will maybe reverse or maybe re-leave with a better no deal or something.

I can understand it on the party political level, as well as 'politics is about power' aspect to it, just still doesn't sit well when it's so obviously crossing into disinformation and done so clearly to mislead. If that makes sense?


----

If anyone's interested in the procedure after a Vote of No Confidence, this is what the Civil Service and current government will be following from the Cabinet Manual (pdf).

Spoiler
Quote
2.19 Under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, if a government is defeated on a motion that ‘this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, there is then a 14-day period during which an alternative government can be formed from the House of Commons as presently constituted, or the incumbent government can seek to regain the confidence of the House. If no government can secure the confidence of the House of Commons during that period, through the approval of a motion that ‘this House has confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, a general election will take place. Other decisions of the House of Commons which have previously been regarded as expressing ‘no confidence’ in the government no longer enable or require the Prime Minister to hold a general election. The Prime Minister is expected to resign where it is clear that he or she does not have the confidence of the House of Commons and that an alternative government does have the confidence.

2.20 Where a range of different administrations could be formed, discussions may take place between political parties on who should form the next government.  In these circumstances the processes and considerations described in paragraphs 2.12–2.17 would apply.

Quote
2.13 Where a range of different administrations could potentially be formed, political parties may wish to hold discussions to establish who is best able to command the confidence of the House of Commons and should form the next government. The Sovereign would not expect to become involved in any negotiations, although there are responsibilities on those involved in the process to keep the Palace informed. This could be done by political parties or the Cabinet Secretary. The Principal Private Secretary to the Prime Minister may also have a role, for example, in communicating with the Palace.

Key point is that 'Leader of the Opposition' appears absolutely nowhere. It's about having a majority of MPs saying they'll back you as a person as PM. Can't get them? Can't persuade 320 others to back you? You're not the new PM and you're not forming a government even if you have most votes. So next decision to make is do you block anyone else from succeeding, if you can, and force an election?

Perfectly reasonable to argue Corbyn should be able to try to persuade other MPs. Bonkers to argue that they're obligated to support him because Labour members made him Leader of the Opposition.
[close]
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 03:15:35 pm by Zeb »
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

  • Rockwool Marketing Board Spokesman. Cracker Wanker. Fucking calmest man on RAWK, alright? ALRIGHT?! Definitely a bigger cunt than YOU!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,210
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24581 on: August 19, 2019, 03:14:18 pm »
Could it be they see a man of integrity that can't be bought and therefore won't be bent by the media, tax avoiding big business, thus also leading to a government that is first and foremost, fair unlike the current incumbents who are solely looking after their party's interests!

IRA members,the Venezuelan bus driver/his dead predecessor,Russian state & Middle Eastern propaganda tv news all say different.
My cup, it runneth over, I'll never get my fill

Offline KillieRed

  • Jaro a.k.a. goatjumpingqueuefucker
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,209
  • Nemo me impune lacessit.
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24582 on: August 19, 2019, 03:19:02 pm »
Let's start with those two highlighted parts then.

That thing you said about Corbyn's job. It's entirely incorrect. He and his office/cabinet collects a salary of taxpayers money to do exactly this. Are you really of the mind that the leader of the opposition just needs to hibernate for a few years between elections, and leave the government to it?

To suggest Corbyn fans are policy driven, and don't focus on personalty (or lack of it, in this clear Dunning-Kruger example), is a truly Orwellian take.


EDIT: sorry third one, didn't see it glancing at your post. your suggestion that Corbyn fans are rising above everything for the good of the country, despite the tough time they've had for having a mirror pointed at some of their antisemitism is just weird. The "hyping of antisemism" claim (and whining but the tories don't get told off when they do it) is simple apologism for bigots xenophobes and racists who ostensibly support Corbyn.

I`m not a Labour Party member, and havent voted for them in decades, but I`d never heard of AS being a problem in Labour outwith the high-profile cases of Livingstone & Galloway. But,  "In February and July 2019, Labour issued information on investigations into complaints of antisemitism against individuals, with around 350 members in total resigning, being expelled or receiving formal warnings, equating to around 0.08% of the membership". There were over 600 hundred claims of anti-semitism against Labour Party members. Some say as many as 900. You might say that`s a tiny percentage of the membership and perhaps reflects society in general, but 600 to 900 incidents? That seems a lot. And where does it come from?

I totally get that the Tory Party probably has a much worse problem with xenophobia and are generally protected by their media supporters, but you also have to get your own house in order too.

I know this is from the BBC , who many people have a problem with at the moment;

"It said fewer than 30 people had been expelled while members investigated for posting online comments such as "Heil Hitler" and "Jews are the problem" had not been suspended."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45030552


But how are these people not expelled from the party for being wholly in contravention of it`s rules and ethics?
The best way to scare a Tory is to read and get rich” - Idles.

Offline redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,395
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24583 on: August 19, 2019, 03:21:26 pm »
Key point is that 'Leader of the Opposition' appears absolutely nowhere. It's about having a majority of MPs saying they'll back you as a person as PM. Can't get them? Can't persuade 320 others to back you? You're not the new PM and you're not forming a government even if you have most votes. So next decision to make is do you block anyone else from succeeding, if you can, and force an election?

Perfectly reasonable to argue Corbyn should be able to try to persuade other MPs. Bonkers to argue that they're obligated to support him because Labour members made him Leader of the Opposition.[/spoiler]
Corbyn's point on that is that prior parliamentary convention and precedent elevates the Leader of the Opposition to the (unwritten) position of 'first option' following a VoNC. Certainly the 2011 FTPA doesn't reference that directly, but as a number of commentators have pointed out recently, the 2011 FTPA is a slightly sloppy and vague piece of legislation.

And of course, it was the voters who made him Leader of the Opposition. It's the members fault for having him in the qualifying role for that, certainly.

Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

  • Rockwool Marketing Board Spokesman. Cracker Wanker. Fucking calmest man on RAWK, alright? ALRIGHT?! Definitely a bigger cunt than YOU!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,210
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24584 on: August 19, 2019, 03:22:11 pm »



But how are these people not expelled from the party for being wholly in contravention of it`s rules and ethics?


Because none of them have said anything different to what the Dear Leader is on record saying/peddling.
My cup, it runneth over, I'll never get my fill

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,392
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24585 on: August 19, 2019, 03:23:05 pm »
If Corbyn fans are not policy driven when everyone says he's weak, what is it that they're seeing that everyone else is not?
Lots of weird, irrational, aspirational, desperate things that aren't really backed up by any evidence, because he's such a blank slate of a personality and even as a politician.

Could it be they see a man of integrity that can't be bought and therefore won't be bent by the media, tax avoiding big business, thus also leading to a government that is first and foremost, fair unlike the current incumbents who are solely looking after their party's interests!
Yeah, exactly like that.

Man of integrity ;D from the man who has MP-washed the image of the Venezuelan dictatorship (amongst others). Whose comrades went over to launder the perception of fake elections over there.

If he's a man of integrity, you're incredibly fucking easy to impress

Offline redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,395
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24586 on: August 19, 2019, 03:24:07 pm »
But how are these people not expelled from the party for being wholly in contravention of it`s rules and ethics?
There's another example on twitter today of a Labour local council candidate (Dorset, I think) posting numerous anti-Semitic tropes and conspiracy theories online, even after the nature of them being pointed out to her. It's mad.
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

Offline Mark Walters

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,482
  • * * * * * *
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24587 on: August 19, 2019, 03:25:24 pm »
No. The job of 'Leader of the Opposition' is to oppose. It's in the effing title. It is a pretty easy concept to understand.
So he's not opposing austerity? ??? Are you sure you're not getting him confused with Swinson?!
"Maybe in life it's impossible to give 100 per cent to your job. Okay, I'll accept 98 per cent" Rafa Benitez

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24588 on: August 19, 2019, 03:31:39 pm »
Corbyn's point on that is that prior parliamentary convention and precedent elevates the Leader of the Opposition to the (unwritten) position of 'first option' following a VoNC. Certainly the 2011 FTPA doesn't reference that directly, but as a number of commentators have pointed out recently, the 2011 FTPA is a slightly sloppy and vague piece of legislation.

And of course, it was the voters who made him Leader of the Opposition. It's the members fault for having him in the qualifying role for that, certainly.

Corbyn's fuzzing up leading the largest party in opposition with it making him heir in a line of succession which doesn't exist, yes. Going by Corbyn's logic, the opportunity should next pass to whoever's doing the Deputy PM's work right now (Raab?). The Cabinet Manual sets out the conventions so they're not unwritten, but they're also not invented on the spur of the moment to suit Corbyn's needs either.

It's actually MPs who make him Leader of the Opposition if we're going to pedant this one. ;)
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,392
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24589 on: August 19, 2019, 03:31:40 pm »
So he's not opposing austerity? ??? Are you sure you're not getting him confused with Swinson?!

Not very well
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/20/labour-manifesto-keep-planned-tory-benefit-cuts-resolution-foundation

"anti-austerity" is a nice brand, and it works for some. But it's about as accurate as the suggestion from the number of bigots who support him that they're "anti-racist".

Online filopastry

  • seldom posts but often delivers
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,754
  • Let me tell you a story.........
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24590 on: August 19, 2019, 03:32:49 pm »
So he's not opposing austerity? ??? Are you sure you're not getting him confused with Swinson?!

Last LibDem manifesto did more to help the bottom 10% in society in terms of income than the last Labour one did, per the IFS I believe.

For a party that likes to talk about austerity the last manifesto didn't seem too arsed about doing a great deal about it, more interested in chucking a load of cash at largely middle class students.

Offline Mark Walters

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,482
  • * * * * * *
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24591 on: August 19, 2019, 03:35:53 pm »
Lots of weird, irrational, aspirational, desperate things that aren't really backed up by any evidence, because he's such a blank slate of a personality and even as a politician.
Maybe it is something else then? Like party policies. I mean, I don't know what they're seeing either.  Maybe they're just not buying the media bullshit!
Quote
Yeah, exactly like that.

Man of integrity ;D from the man who has MP-washed the image of the Venezuelan dictatorship (amongst others). Whose comrades went over to launder the perception of fake elections over there.

If he's a man of integrity, you're incredibly fucking easy to impress
Is that the current democratically-elected Venezuelan government? The country that has been unfairly sanctioned by the US and many other western countries causing an economic and social crisis? Sanctions imposed simply because it's oil rich and everybody wants a piece?
"Maybe in life it's impossible to give 100 per cent to your job. Okay, I'll accept 98 per cent" Rafa Benitez

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,392
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24592 on: August 19, 2019, 03:39:26 pm »
Maybe it is something else then? Like party policies. I mean, I don't know what they're seeing either.  Maybe they're just not buying the media bullshit!Is that the current democratically-elected Venezuelan government? The country that has been unfairly sanctioned by the US and many other western countries causing an economic and social crisis? Sanctions imposed simply because it's oil rich and everybody wants a piece?

This is like Corbyn fan tropes bingo.

You clearly aren’t interested in evidence/facts/truths, and you’re not offering anything aside from the same oft repeated (and disproved) arguments from the corbyn echo chamber so I will probably leave it there

Offline Mark Walters

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,482
  • * * * * * *
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24593 on: August 19, 2019, 03:47:56 pm »
This is like Corbyn fan tropes bingo.

You clearly aren’t interested in evidence/facts/truths, and you’re not offering anything aside from the same oft repeated (and disproved) arguments from the corbyn echo chamber so I will probably leave it there
It wasn't my intention to offer truths except the undeniable fact that the Labour party policies to end austerity are clearly there in their manifesto.  What I'm arguing is that maybe those close to Corbyn know more that those that are no so close, and depend on the media in order to form an opinion.

Is there anything else I said that wasn't backed up by evidence or facts?
"Maybe in life it's impossible to give 100 per cent to your job. Okay, I'll accept 98 per cent" Rafa Benitez

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,949
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24594 on: August 19, 2019, 03:53:57 pm »
So he's not opposing austerity? ??? Are you sure you're not getting him confused with Swinson?!
I don't care if it comes from the left or right, but I've come to realise that when people resort to whataboutery, the discussion becomes pointless. Bye, bye.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,392
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24595 on: August 19, 2019, 03:58:18 pm »
It wasn't my intention to offer truths except the undeniable fact that the Labour party policies to end austerity are clearly there in their manifesto.  What I'm arguing is that maybe those close to Corbyn know more that those that are no so close, and depend on the media in order to form an opinion.

Is there anything else I said that wasn't backed up by evidence or facts?
Undeniable fact? How come you didn't respond to this then?
Not very well
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/20/labour-manifesto-keep-planned-tory-benefit-cuts-resolution-foundation

"anti-austerity" is a nice brand, and it works for some. But it's about as accurate as the suggestion from the number of bigots who support him that they're "anti-racist".

Offline redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,395
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24596 on: August 19, 2019, 04:05:32 pm »
An interesting and somewhat depressing piece, not primarily about Brexit.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/08/why-liberals-now-believe-conspiracies
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

  • Rockwool Marketing Board Spokesman. Cracker Wanker. Fucking calmest man on RAWK, alright? ALRIGHT?! Definitely a bigger cunt than YOU!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,210
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24597 on: August 19, 2019, 04:10:27 pm »
Is that the current democratically-elected Venezuelan government? The country that has been unfairly sanctioned by the US and many other western countries causing an economic and social crisis? Sanctions imposed simply because it's oil rich and everybody wants a piece?






Have you ever seen the Venezuelan Govs moped gangs in action ?
My cup, it runneth over, I'll never get my fill

Offline Mark Walters

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,482
  • * * * * * *
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24598 on: August 19, 2019, 04:21:27 pm »
Undeniable fact? How come you didn't respond to this then?
Nothing sinister. I just didn't see it when I refreshed.

To answer your question in relation to the article, ending austerity is not a simple case of "reverse all cuts".  There are other plans which will have a positive social and economic impact such as the reversal of PIP cuts, £8bn on social care, free school meals, free childcare for low income families, increased apprentiships, etc.
"Maybe in life it's impossible to give 100 per cent to your job. Okay, I'll accept 98 per cent" Rafa Benitez

Offline Mark Walters

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,482
  • * * * * * *
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24599 on: August 19, 2019, 04:33:15 pm »



Have you ever seen the Venezuelan Govs moped gangs in action ?

No, perhaps you can enlighten me. 
"Maybe in life it's impossible to give 100 per cent to your job. Okay, I'll accept 98 per cent" Rafa Benitez