Author Topic: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC  (Read 18730 times)

Offline Hinesy

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RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« on: January 12, 2014, 06:17:11 pm »
Hello Daniel, must be the clouds in my eyes...
Tears of joy and a hard hard fought game, Hughes has done a job at Stoke, a strong aggressive team with Crouch as an ever present danger. We had another cup game type match, to and fro, end to end etc etc but a great sign that this is a slightly different Liverpool team. We kept going. A soft penalty perhaps, but still deserved and I thought apart from a tendency to pass back to Skrtel at dangerous moments and he just gets us into more trouble, we are playing consistently well and now look like a team that opposition teams expect to score, they know they can't give up on us. That cheers me. As does Sturridge's goal, wow. Other strikers may have given up but the whole build up from Sterling to Suarez to crossing the line was just a thing of joy.
Onwards and upwards. What we do now Daniel's back. Who goes?
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Offline E2K

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2014, 08:05:42 pm »
As we all know, there’s an old cliché that, without fail, gets dusted off and broken out each and every year. It’s usually reserved for games during the ‘run-in’ as we approach the end of the season, but it can also appear as early as Christmas (and has done this season – witness the reaction to Arsenal’s 1-0 win at Newcastle a few weeks back). It essentially states that a team which can find a way to collect all three points even when it’s playing shit, or at least at a level below its best, is going to be in the mix come the end of the season for whatever important prizes it covets, whether it’s the League title or, as is surely the goal for Liverpool, a top-four finish.

Now, normally, the type of game that fits this bill is a scrappy 1-0 or 2-0 win, like the aforementioned Arsenal result at St. James Park or the one Manchester City pulled off today at the same ground or the seven 1-0 wins out of fifteen that Manchester United claimed on their way to overhauling a twelve-point deficit in 1995/96. What Liverpool did today was different in style but similar in end-product. The defence was poor, which was as much about the personnel as the system in my view. There was a massive Sakho/Agger sized hole in the back four and I don’t see Stoke scoring three and hitting the post with another if one of them plays. I don’t necessarily mean both of them, because that appears to be something that the manager won’t countenance doing, but either one of them tends to have a terrific calming effect on the defence when he plays. I’ve seen stats going around, for example, of how many Liverpool clean-sheets under Rodgers have had Agger in common, and it’s a high number. Throw in the absence of Enrique/Flanagan (Cissokho wasn’t good), the continued poor form of Johnson and a centre-back in Sktrel whose presence puts no one at ease, and you suddenly have what I believe is termed ‘a dodgy back four’ with a ‘keeper behind it whose confidence looks worryingly shot to fuck having made a poor mistake at Manchester City over Christmas and now another today.

Having said that, good teams, teams that are going places find a way to win, and that’s what Liverpool did today. Most managers, certainly in the case of Houllier, Benítez and the Dalglish/Clarke partnership, concentrate on getting the defence right first, building from the back. There’s even evidence, notwithstanding his team’s attacking play, that this was also Roy Evans’ first priority on taking over from Souness, breaking the British transfer record for a defender by signing Phil Babb (£3.6m) and paying a similarly hefty fee for John Scales, both centre-backs, and switching to three at the back ahead of his first full season in charge. Rodgers’ focus has been completely different. His Liverpool is a team built to pass the ball and score goals first and foremost. That has been his focus from day one. Of the major signings he has made to date, five by my count (Mignolet, Sakho, Touré, Ilori and Cissokho on loan) have been defensive ones while nine (Borini, Allen, Assaidi, Sahin on loan, Coutinho, Sturridge, Alberto, Aspas, Moses on loan) were either attacking players or ones whose remit was to retain possession and give those attackers the platform on which to score goals. The balance has been clear and the results have been impressive – only two teams in the Premier League have scored over fifty goals this season, Liverpool and Manchester City. Last season, only Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal scored more than the Reds, and that was with one fit senior striker for three months...

The injuries to Enrique, Sakho, Agger, Johnson, Touré and Flanagan at various times certainly haven’t helped to maintain cohesiveness in a defensive sense. Throw in the usual concerns about the athleticism, or lack thereof, in Liverpool’s midfield, and you’ve got a recipe for conceding chances and goals. It’s important to remember, though, that he’s only been in the job for little over eighteen months and not everything is going to come together at the same time. Let us also be thankful that he’s done such a fucking good job of creating a team that can score goals at a rate of almost 2.5 per game. Every time I think back to the last title challenge that Liverpool managed, 2008/09, I think about Torres and Gerrard only playing together in fourteen games out of thirty-eight and the paucity of talent available to deputise when one or both were missing. Meanwhile, Carlos Tevez could barely get off the bench for Manchester United. They would have games where they were average at best only for the attacking talents of the Argentine or Ronaldo or Rooney or Berbatov to do just about enough to seal the three points (those players were, of course, also backed by a defence that kept twenty-four clean-sheets out of thirty-eight, a staggering record).

Well what Suárez and Sturridge are doing this season may be even more impressive given that Liverpool are nowhere near as complete a team or squad as that Manchester United vintage. Sturridge’s pass to Suárez for Liverpool’s fourth and the way in which he took his own goal were not just good pieces of skill, they were world-class. Suárez wasn’t just clinical, chasing down three Stoke players and making them figuratively (and hey, who knows, maybe literally too) shit themselves at his mere presence to create something out of nothing for the first and then that first-time finish for the second, he was world-class. Sterling’s rise to the level of first-team regular has also been superb, and if he’s the one to miss out now with the return of Sturridge, then the bench suddenly has a different, more menacing feel to it. For me, the penalty was a foul. There wasn’t much contact but there was contact nonetheless, and with the player rather than the ball. I think Wilson was stupid for having that little nibble at a player who was going nowhere. The real injustice from Stoke’s point of view was the handball before it, but from a Liverpool perspective it’s still three points well-earned and the big story once again is the best strike partnership we’ve had, in my view, since Aldo and Beardsley 25 years ago. Their talent is the difference time and time again between a point or three, or no points at all, and it gives Liverpool a massive edge in the race for the top-four.
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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2014, 11:58:26 pm »
I don't like being involved in games that are great for neutrals. I want certainty, I want a comfortable cruise to an easy win. That way I don't have to change my shirt afterwards.

This was an appalling game of football. Error strewn, witless play from both sides as well as the officials. Stoke under Hughes are a strange amalgam of what is and what used to be, so they try to play football but aren't terribly good at it, and then they lump it, and they're not very good at that either. Luckily for them, we had one of those Welcome Days in our defending. Their first was a decent header by an unaccountably unmarked Crouch. He's a fucking mop of hair on stilts, how can you lose him? The second was provided by a slipping captain, and ably assisted by Skrtel who approached the prospective block of Adam's shot much in the manner of Marilyn Monroe over a subway vent. Their third stemmed from an "after you, no, after you" moment in midfield between Lucas, playing in Gerrard's position today, and Gerrard, playing in Lucas' position, and culminated in our keeper failing to notice the ball travelling at modest pace, inches from his arse.

"Gerrard? Lucas? How about you boys swap today? Eh? Oh, no reason. Just....y'know. For the buzz."

I will say here and now that I do not see Gerrard as a solution for defensive mid or quarterback or whatever the fuck you want to call the midfielder that's closest to the centre halves. I am aware that Lucas started out playing the more forward midfield/yet not number ten in a traditional Brazilian system (like Ramires does for Chelsea) but it's been a good while. I don't know what Rodgers is trying to do here. Saving Gerrard's legs? And then Gerrard says in the afterview that they've been talking about it.

Stoke, not to be outdone, gifted the first when Shawcross couldn't stop himself from improving on Cissokho's corner flag-bound shot. For the second, he and Wilson were like little kids confronted with a scary spider. Ohmygod, ohmygod, the ball is bouncing and it's Suarez!. And then, just when the two teams joint crappiness was starting to become evident, the officials intervened with a series of baffling decisions which allowed Sterling to firstly impersonate a basketball player and steal away upcourt before then introducing his hip to that of Wilson's, collapsing to the ground and glaring at the ref reproachfully. Honestly, I burst out laughing when the ref bought it. Disgraceful decision. Good finish from the captain.

But oh, those boys up front. Sturridge had the Play Of The Day with his insouciant outside of the left boot flick but what made the resulting goal was the Stoke defenders steadfast determination to forget Suarez' existence, even if Sturridge didn't. The provider was then incredibly selfish but gloriously talented for the fifth. The persistence was one thing, but the little head juggle to make the right angle was a thing of joy. Having said that, I would have liked to see him explain the situation to Suarez, unmarked on the six yard line, had he missed.

So, an "entertaining game" and really, who needs one of those?

I don't like being involved in games that are great for neutrals.

Offline Hinesy

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2014, 12:31:58 am »
Amen to your last line. Hate it. Utterly.
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Offline paulrazor

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2014, 10:09:11 am »
Amen to your last line. Hate it. Utterly.
dont mind as much once we win but it aint good for the ol ticker

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Offline ashleyrose-66

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2014, 10:52:18 am »
A case for the defence?

The one brush you couldn’t tar Liverpool with these days is that they are boring to watch.
They are anything but – even if watching them at times means looking through your fingers as you fill with anxiety every time the attacking team come forward.

For me, Liverpool are in this weird scenario that I expect us to score with every attack we put together, and at the same time expect us to concede with every attack our opponents can muster.

That’s not to say I think we are bad defensively, because we have some very good defenders in our side.  But the lack of a solid, consistent defensive unit could be the cause of our defensive frailties.

We have been unlucky with injuries to our defenders this season, Agger, Sakho and Enrique who many would argue are ¾ of our “best” defence were missing on Sunday at Stoke, as Liverpool shipped 3 goals.  Toure, Flanagan and Johnson have also missed games through injury, Kelly is still working his way back and even Cissokho was injured on his debut in the League Cup.  So Rodgers could argue that he has never really had a good run at getting a consistent back 4 together.

The bedrock for any side is the ability to keep clean sheets.  You don’t concede goals, you don’t lose games.  The minimum return is a point, and you look to build on that to turn 1 on to 3.  Easy!! 
I don’t think Rodgers is deliberately setting Liverpool up to take a Kevin Keegan “you score 3, we’ll score 4 (or 5!)” approach.  This just seems to be the hand he has been dealt because an inability to get a consistent back four on the pitch.

I think the chopping and changing of the defensive line-up has had an effect on Mignolet’s game.  He is clearly a very talented goalkeeper, and we have seen him make some breath taking saves this season, but we have also seen him let in what you would call “soft” goals in recent weeks.
The one against City was a mistake.  He’ll hold his hands up and admit that I am sure, but the Eto’o goal at Stamford Bridge and the Walters goal at the Britannia were efforts that you would argue that he should be saving. 
Has his form been affected by the continuous chopping and changing of personnel in front of him?   Or is he having a wobble – If he is having a wobble, then hopefully he’ll get his confidence back sooner rather than later, because he is a very good keeper who will (in my opinion) get better.

But to put a case for the (makeshift) defence, how much protection are they getting?  Liverpool play an attacking brand of football, and with Sterling, Coutinho, Suarez and the returning Sturridge to factor in somewhere, Liverpool offer a lot going forward.  Henderson has energy and is often seen pressing the ball high up the field, which leaves Gerrard and Lucas.   Gerrard set his stall out early on against Stoke, by charging back and making a sliding tackle, and Lucas was often the furthest man forward against Stoke as Rodgers wanted Henderson to be a bit deeper.  It was a strange decision.

Do we have a situation where Rodgers is not only tinkering with his defence, but also his midfield?  If that’s the case, then there can be no wonder why we are a bit fragile defensively.

We have seen Liverpool try several different formations this season. 4-2-3-1, 3-2-3-2, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, does Rodgers know his best formation, or is he unable to implement that formation due to players being unavailable due to injury?

Hopefully, Enrique, Allen, Agger and Flanagan will return from injury in the coming weeks, and will help Rodgers solve a few problems he currently faces.  In the meantime, we may just have to put up with some more kamikaze performances like yesterday.   

Offline The 5th Benitle

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2014, 02:24:31 pm »
Enjoyed the game immensely. No I didn't, I went through a rollercoaster of emotions as I'm sure we all did.


I'm concerned though at this pushing Lucas further upfield to accommodate Stevie as the deepest lying midfielder. Lucas is a much better player as a pure DM, though he will of course give 100% for the manager in any position. But I just suspect that defensively he is a far better 'DM' than Steven Gerrard, and that Gerrard remains a better player that bit further forward.


Perhaps different games will bring different setups - let's say we were playing Chelsea, you'd hope Lucas would play deep.


The skill involved in Sturridge's goal was breathtaking - he is a special player, and Luis is Luis. 4th place after a tricky Christmas run, happy with that and everything's up for grabs if our SAS (and S) keep fit.

Offline the 92A

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2014, 03:33:11 pm »
I agree with E2k about the defence. I think injuries have taken their toll and a lot s down to personnel rather than anything else. I'm not a fan of Aly Cissokho although what choice does Rodgers have? It's not just that he is adjusting to the speed of the Premiership it's the positions he takes up when he hasn't got the ball, he rarely shows, I can't decide whether his positional sense is so bad or he is actively trying to avoid getting involved but it makes us very vulnerable on the left when he plays. Charlie Adam was made to look like a tricky ball player at times, I don't want to slag the lad off and I'll support any player who plays for us but playing someone who is so out of his comfort zone has consequences for our performance but with Enrique and Flanagan out we have no choice.


Interesting to see Gerrard and Lucas sort of swap roles, could work out well but will require both to adjust. My impression was Gerrard played some wonderful passes but we lost possession a bit more with a few passes going astray when we needed to keep possession and take some sting out of the game but over all nothing to be too worried about, we're playing some great football and attacking wise it's good to see Sturridge back. I've never known us to be able to score so frequently. Suarez is unbelievable, we're witnessing a World great play for us every week. I'm just enjoying it.
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Offline paulrazor

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2014, 03:34:05 pm »
was just a real cup tie and unbelievably scrappy

mignolet - some good saves but should have done better for the third goal.

johnson - nothing special
skrtel- had his moments, not closing down adam for the second goal was poor
toure- poor marking for crouch's goal but tried to keep a cool head under pressure.
cissokho- nothing special goal aside

lucas- did well but at times part of midfield that was over run
gerrard- started off well but kinda got sloppy much like everyone else but linked up well with attack and defence in second half
henderson- very sloppy, worst game for a while. but kept going and he will hopefully just chalk that one off

sterling- brilliant, destroyed pieters
suarez- brilliant
coutinho- did well but finishing lets him down

sturridge- brilliant
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Offline paulrazor

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2014, 03:40:35 pm »
set pieces i thought we did ok, there was the usual worry but it was more paranoia than anything. general sloppiness and bad defending lead to the goals and bad keeping for the third

i think it said a lot about our character as stoke started getting more physical towards the end but we just kept coming back to keep taking the lead. we looked very dangerous on the break and cut them open at will. our attack this season is as good as anyones in europe and with sturridge back even more so

it was a huge test for us, and whilst defensively theres  a lot  to worry over i do think we can be proud of winning a genuinely difficult game in poor conditions, we dug deep and fought hard and physically skrtel and gerrard didnt shirk anything and lucas stuck his boot in at times too which was encouraging against a physical team.

ive no doubt that was a game we would have lost in the last year under rafa or kenny, or under hodgson or in the first 6 months under rodgers. a stern test we passed

given all teams around us won its a huge 3 points
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Offline Azi

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2014, 03:52:40 pm »
set pieces i thought we did ok, there was the usual worry but it was more paranoia than anything. general sloppiness and bad defending lead to the goals and bad keeping for the third

i think it said a lot about our character as stoke started getting more physical towards the end but we just kept coming back to keep taking the lead. we looked very dangerous on the break and cut them open at will. our attack this season is as good as anyones in europe and with sturridge back even more so

it was a huge test for us, and whilst defensively theres  a lot  to worry over i do think we can be proud of winning a genuinely difficult game in poor conditions, we dug deep and fought hard and physically skrtel and gerrard didnt shirk anything and lucas stuck his boot in at times too which was encouraging against a physical team.

ive no doubt that was a game we would have lost in the last year under rafa or kenny, or under hodgson or in the first 6 months under rodgers. a stern test we passed

given all teams around us won its a huge 3 points

without playing devils advocate how many times did we lose a two goal lead under either of  them ? the big difference is we would never have got that penalty in the first 6 months of Rodgers being here and more likely we would have been penalized on the Suarez handball granted it was right at him but it was the sorta thing that went against us last year.

right now every time we attack it looks like we're bound to score but the same can be said about our defence every time the opponents attack it feels like we're about to concede. I still think untill we have a settled back 4 our defenders will look like bambi on ice.


Offline paulrazor

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2014, 04:21:58 pm »
without playing devils advocate how many times did we lose a two goal lead under either of  them ?
not many but not really what i was getting at

games its put up to us or games we look like throwing away. the amount of leads lost under kenny for instance.
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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2014, 04:55:32 pm »
The best part about playing Gerrard deeper like that for me is how quickly he spots a forward pass when the game opens up. It was his ball over the top to Sterling that helped Suarez tee up Sturridge for the 5th and finally put the game to bed. On the flip side to that I suppose he's more likely to give it away when at times we need to just keep ball for a while and take the sting out of the game. Risk/reward I suppose.

I thought he tracked back well too and on the whole did pretty well there. He was partly to blame for the 3rd goal though, getting in the way of Lucas  abit and then giving possession away with a poor touch. I can see how he could work in that position but obviously it'll take time to adjust and with a constantly changing back 4 maybe it's one tweak too many at this stage.

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2014, 05:37:48 pm »
I absolutely loved the game.

I loved the fact the first goal was a topped shot that rattled in off a pantomime villain's knee. I loved the way Raheem was toppled and people were complaining the penatly was soft. I loved the fact that Sturridge literally took my breath away. It was bloody great - we never get a result there.

Also, Charlie Adam's goal made me smile a little.

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2014, 07:05:42 pm »
Also, Charlie Adam's goal made me smile a little.

In the highlights, yes. It was not quite so amusing art the time...

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2014, 07:44:34 pm »
Interesting point made earlier in the thread regarding the availability of certain players and the damage done by injuries. Yet we're still fourth, with some pretty significant injuries, and with supposedly the weakest squad in the top 6. Yes we're going to leak goals while the defence is changing every week, and yes I'm simultaneously applauding and chastising Mignolet - one minute a succession of world class saves, the next letting a simple ball fumble through his grasp. But my god, we are utterly lethal going forward. This is easily the best striking partnership we've had for a good quarter of a century. The flick from Sturridge was just sensational. Chelsea should rightly be kicking themselves for letting this lad go - not that I'm complaining, of course... Special mention should also be made for Raheem, who appears to be having a bit of a growth spurt and is definitely bulking up. If he is this good as a teenager, what will he be like in 3 years?

With a fully fit squad and lack of European distractions, I would be hard pressed to imagine us outside the top 4 when May arrives. Arsenal are going to seriously miss Walcott, especially considering Giroud is now reverting to type again. Chelsea will continue to grind out results, but again may be tempted by European adventures. City are in their own league at the moment, but have a soft centre at the back. This season is so crazy, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we won the fucking thing. This result yesterday is proof that we have a solid mentality, we have momentum. Whatever happens between now and the end of the season, we should just be thankful that we are challenging. Onwards and upwards.

Offline Mike Basset

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2014, 08:01:04 pm »
Also, Charlie Adam's goal made me smile a little.

If by "smile" you mean steam with rage and by "a little" you mean a lot then i completely agree. Although it was a lot easier to watch later on in the highlights.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2014, 08:09:34 pm »
RAWK was incredibly negative after the Chelsea game from some parts. PoP needed a bit of a break from that, as well as getting over a bad flu. I'll post on this later, but it probably won't be tactical. The goals conceded is of less importance than the goals scored. Watersheds and landmarks and all that.
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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2014, 08:15:01 pm »
The Britannia is a horrible horrible place to go and get a football result. The crowd are loud and volatile, and whatever type of football they play is effective.

You can see exactly why Chelsea, City and Everton failed to pick up 3 points there. They make it incredibly hard. Which makes our win even more important. Not only did we break a hoodoo of not winning there for many years but we kept pace with everyone around us who won. Psychologically, it was a crucial win because we proved we can still go away and come up with the goods against a tough team when the pressure is on. Similar to the Spurs game, we probably broke another mental barrier in the victory.

As a spectacle, it was hard on one's health watching that. I thought we started off brightly and looked good going forward. We got the 2-0 cushion but Stoke's comeback was actually indicative of the way the game had flowed back and forth. They looked dangerous. It's a testament to them that we had to keep scoring to ensure the victory, because a 1 goal lead didn't look safe. Thought their first goal was partially Toure's fault at not challenging Crouch on the header. Their 2nd one was a giveaway going towards our goal, but even then the shot is a superb one because he gets it through Sktrel's legs and he puts it in the corner. Their 3rd goal is just a bad sequence of events on our part. No way should that goal have gone in, and I thought Mignolet should have done a lot better there even though he saw it late. Still, he managed to pull off a few other good saves so I won't dwell on it. For 2 of their goals I thought the midfield didn't do a good enough job of protecting the defense.

Going forward we looked very good. Sturridge coming on made us even better and that extra bit of class he has just took us to another level. A wonderful cameo with an assist for Luis and a very well taken goal as well. He just offers us a different dimension up there. The way he holds up the ball and keeps possession of it is just superb to watch. Thought Raheem continued his rich vein of form, and I've said a few times already that I was wrong about him when I stated he wasn't ready for the first 11. I was wrong – badly. Take a bow my friend, you just keep getting better and better. 

Thought Luis was special as always. Will have to see a few more games in Gerrard's new role, but overall I thought he did OK. If we all thought that Gerrard's long term position is that of DM/sweeper/shielder then surely that was the inception of it. He even commented on it in post-match interview. It also depends on what new role Lucas has now, and it will be interesting to see against Villa if he bursts forward in the box more.

All in all, just a mad and crazy game of football that wasn't for the faint hearted. But very well hard fought victory, because that wasn't easy by any stretch.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 08:19:02 pm by Number 7 »
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Offline DutchRed

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2014, 08:21:19 pm »
You know what.

If there is anything that has changed under Rodgers, it is that is has become common for us to score five or more in the league. Yesterday was the seventh time. For good measure, it took all of Rafa Benitez' six-season Liverpool tenure to see us hitting five or more for seven times. And Benitez' side were, to put it in Rodgers' words, consistently in the conversation for European honours. It obviously helps to have Suarez. His quality isn't even the most useful part of him for Rodgers: it's his consistency. Stretching back to his Ajax times it's been over five years since he's missed a game through injury. Given the kickings he take from the thug defenders from the likes of Stoke, that is absolutely astonishing.  Rodgers can build a plan around him because this lad, apparently, doesn't do injuries. The noticable difference between Rodgers' side and the Liverpool teams we have come to known over the years is their attitude of 'if you don't buy a ticket you don't win the rafle'. That was on show yesterday, we consitently pressurised Stoke and, since they aren't the most technically gifted side, they seemed to panic and give goals away. Cissokho's shot is going miles wide, it hits Shawcross and the next thing we know is Liverpool are 1-0 up. Suarez and Sterling just chased down the defenders for the second and third goal too. Any team should have dealt with that, but they didn't and we got two great goals.

Yet this is a concern for the standard of defending in the league: it's absolutely awful. We can go on about how bad Stoke were, and they were, but we were good on the attack. On the contrary, we do have defending worries of our own. We got four goals on the road and still were made to sweat come the end: that's not good enough. We got away with it yesterday, but we'll only get to be in the top four come May if we'll improve at the back in the near future.

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Offline robgomm

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2014, 08:25:57 pm »
It was hugely frustrating to get pulled back to 2-2 but at half-time I was sure we'd get two more, in the end it was three. Our goalscoring form is remarkable. It was an interesting game for us with Gerrard's new position and Lucas working from high, maintaining an excellent accuracy of passing in a way that could prove valuable in ensuring we keep the ball high up the pitch (much better than keeping it amongst your centre-backs).

I think Suarez deserves special credit for terrifying the defenders on their second. It shows the value of simply being a presence around the opposition deep in their own half and why we should continue to look to win the ball high up the field. Suarez is the best forward in the world at harrying, no doubt driven by his own desire to be on the ball wherever possible.

Offline Kennys from heaven

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2014, 08:46:31 pm »
The goals conceded is of less importance than the goals scored. Watersheds and landmarks and all that.
(In a nice way!) Looking forward to your explanation of that, as I can see a number of ways that it's meant, as I feel kind of similar, although I think the use of the term landmark is more appropriate than watershed.

Feel there's (and I can see why, don't get me wrong) been a lot of highlighting of the defensive frailties and goals against, but not enough highlighting of the fact that banging in five goals at Stoke is no small feat. Everyone on here (irrespective of what they may have written pre-match) must have known this was not going to be a game we could fully control and by definition therefore, would struggle in. Stoke, for all their failings and shortcomings are a side that causes considerable problems to all sides visiting there and we proved no different, even if some were of our own making - this is the aura effect that certain sides have on others. That said however, I believe we're doing the side a disservice by concentrating on those goals conceded rather than the goals scored, as its those that defined the outcome of the game - not the goals conceded.

Yes, there were (and throughout the course of the season, have been) mistakes made, but in this particular game, against that particular side, I believe that we dispelled a myth that has counted against us for many a season: That we can't win away to sides such as Stoke. (Go back to the old 'Hoodoo' sides such as Leicester, Southampton, etc. (Hang on a sec...) and in the past, we'd have crumbled, but although we're making mistakes ourselves, we're now punishing the oppositions more now. My main concern was that it could have been another Hull City, but was proven wrong in the best possible way.

Scoring more goals that we concede however will still get more wins and therefore points. It may not be good for the heart and "Good for the neutral" (with you on that platitude by the way!) but at least the weighting is the right way! Personally, I felt we were always going to concede as our record there pretty much dictated we would, but strangely, I never felt we were going to lose the game though and I feel that way more and more watching us. Best thing is, that as I have maintained, we can (and will) still improve, but getting the monkey of winning at Stoke (And in the end, quite handsomely!) off our backs should be another waypoint in the development of the club. I'm not saying it's going to be the defining one though, as there is way too long to go before the end of the season, but I'll take 5 goals for and three against anytime of the day. Especially against them!
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Offline Kennys from heaven

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2014, 08:53:29 pm »
You know what.

If there is anything that has changed under Rodgers, it is that is has become common for us to score five or more in the league. Yesterday was the seventh time. For good measure, it took all of Rafa Benitez' six-season Liverpool tenure to see us hitting five or more for seven times. And Benitez' side were, to put it in Rodgers' words, consistently in the conversation for European honours. It obviously helps to have Suarez. His quality isn't even the most useful part of him for Rodgers: it's his consistency. Stretching back to his Ajax times it's been over five years since he's missed a game through injury. Given the kickings he take from the thug defenders from the likes of Stoke, that is absolutely astonishing.  Rodgers can build a plan around him because this lad, apparently, doesn't do injuries. The noticable difference between Rodgers' side and the Liverpool teams we have come to known over the years is their attitude of 'if you don't buy a ticket you don't win the rafle'. That was on show yesterday, we consitently pressurised Stoke and, since they aren't the most technically gifted side, they seemed to panic and give goals away. Cissokho's shot is going miles wide, it hits Shawcross and the next thing we know is Liverpool are 1-0 up. Suarez and Sterling just chased down the defenders for the second and third goal too. Any team should have dealt with that, but they didn't and we got two great goals.

Yet this is a concern for the standard of defending in the league: it's absolutely awful. We can go on about how bad Stoke were, and they were, but we were good on the attack. On the contrary, we do have defending worries of our own. We got four goals on the road and still were made to sweat come the end: that's not good enough. We got away with it yesterday, but we'll only get to be in the top four come May if we'll improve at the back in the near future.


You make a valid point on the standard of defending in the league, but I maintain that the art of defending had long since died but this season more than ever, it's becoming apparent. We're not the only ones with defensive worries however and our concerns are not as bad as others I feel!
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Offline MobileBayRed

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2014, 09:00:01 pm »
Golf clap for Mr. Crouch who must have been sporting a raging chubby when he saw LFC's team sheet with Toure and Skrtel at CB.  We could have played for 10 hours and I'm not sure Toure or Skrtel would have won an aerial duel against him.  Think I had a heartattack in the first 3 minutes of the game when we conceded 4 corners.  Thank god Adam hasn't gotten any better at his delivery.  The first header was a thing of beauty.  Toure was actually in good position about 3 seconds before the goal, but Crouch used his body to get enough space.  If Sakho or Agger is in the game, that is not a goal.

Also, a bit rough on the defense yesterday with a completely altered CM line-up.  How many of our goals this season can be directly related to a piss-poor pass/giveaway in central midfield?  Even when we weren't giving the ball away and slipping like a baby giraffe trying to stand up on ice, there was no real discernible shape to the team.  It was an awkward game to say the least.  Think Rodgers got away with some tinkering.  Didn't like the way the formation took Henderson completely out of the game.  For me, this was the biggest downside of our setup.  Henderson was anonymous. 

Getting Sturridge back is better than a new January transfer. We are starting to get a little bit healthier.  Opponents will be shitting themselves with SAS in this form.  We should probably get Sakho back next week, which will help.  Maybe Flanagan the week after that. 

I LOVE the celebration between Suarez and Sturridge.  Think this team really enjoys playing together.

Speaking of raging boners, I have one thinking about Suarez-Sturridge-Sterling up top.  SaSaS?? SSS?
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Offline houkura

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2014, 09:02:49 pm »

SASASAS.

That last goal combined four wonderful players for a magnificent goal. Stevie sent it down for Sterling..whom for such a young and small player held the ball up brilliantly for Suarez who did his little turn without touching the ball and popped in a really world class cross to Sturridge. I haven't heard much about that pass from Suarez but it was one of the best touches of the game. And now onto the 4th S...Sturridge on his short return from injury...took that cross and blasted it at goal only for Butland to save miraculously but the amazing part was Daniel's determination to get the rebound after falling out of the end line and kick, head and smash the ball into the net. He looked like Pele doing it. Just a wonderful display of football from all 4 players and especially Luis and Daniel-some real world class football right there...not to mention the other goal they linked up for.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2014, 09:09:11 pm »
Again, I am pretty disappointed on the reactions around here. A win against Stoke away, a place where we couldn't take anything for years which gives you an idea of how difficult it is to win there and how much it takes to gain three points from this fixture.

There was a lot of talk on how this to be some sort of a "strange" game we had, as it was some sort of a coincidence why we won and how we will be paying for some mistakes pretty soon, but, frankly, people couldn't be more off here. It's the way how the team works together as a team,  which makes us the strong team we are at the moment and winning on a regular basis, just as it wasn't a coincidence when we couldn't win often enough under Hodgson for example, despite having probably the same overall squad quality around.

We win as a team, the way how the players work together in terms of our tactical concept and it's first and foremost the players who make the vision of Rodgers work with their will and effort they put in day in day out in training to work on that and on match day for quite some time now.

For some reasons though, fans recently put their sight on players individually and not in terms of what they contribute to our overall play which is not only totally wrong, it also takes away everything which is really important for our success at the moment. It's not about Jordan Henderson scoring a screamer from 20 yards, it's about his contribution to our passing which makes him the important player he developed into recently. Under Hodgson f.e., there were probably less individual mistakes happening (from Skrtel f.e.) with players maybe having better moments individually (like Lucas f.e.) but what does it mean really? It's a team game, it needs a team spirit, a game plan for the entire team we make mistakes as team just as we win as team.

Sorry for repeating myself but I think it really needs to point out as the critics on individual mistakes of players seems to be more important than what players contribute to our overall game.

We play top football because ALL our first 14 players keep on working for our overall tactical game, the way Rodgers wants us to be playing football. And that's why we are winning games.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 09:17:36 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2014, 09:09:19 pm »
Well that was... interesting.

People will talk of poor performances from individuals and that we didn't win, Stoke lost, but I think that glosses over an impressive attacking performance for us. We scored 5 goals. FIVE GOALS. At Stoke!

How many times have we complained of our team throwing chances away or capitulating in defence? How many times have we cursed our luck?  Our first two goals had a great deal of luck, but the second still required a dogged run down from Suarez. Not every striker would have done that.

We conceded two very good goals and need to look at our defensive line for the first and the space we gave Adam for the second, but they don't negate the fact that we were the better team for the first 39 minutes. We controlled the game and allowed them back into it because of a couple of simple mistakes. I'm convinced that in previous years we would have caved in the second half. That we came out in the second half and scored a 3rd goal to quieten the crowd was a sign of the impressive mentality we now have. Yes the penalty was soft and if that had been given against us we'd have been raging, but the pace of our attack created the opportunity and we deserved it.

Stoke may have had a lot of set pieces but created little between our 3rd and 4th and I really respect Rodgers for recognising our defensive frailties and throwing Sturridge in to push for the killer goal. Stoke's defence were petrified of our attack and as soon as Sturridge came on it just made it worse. 4th goal was a thing of beauty and should have killed Stoke off completely.  But fair play to them they absolutely never give up and the pressure they (and the crowd) applied brought a deserved goal. This is were we could have done with a defender to bring on to shore things up.  Mignolet was unlucky to pull off a superb save and then follow it up with a rather soft goal. He did look unsighted, to be fair.

Yet again, we didn't allow Stoke to do what they normally do and build on the goal, we killed off for good this time. The goal from Sturridge was ridiculous and just showed how far we've come.

Did Stoke lose the match through poor mistakes or did we strike such fear into their defence that they caved under the pressure. This is what we can do now. Every team we play is shit scared of our attack and that's a great position to be in. We absolutely need to sort our defence out, but let's be honest, we haven't had a settled back 4 all season. We need to sort it out, but we beat fucking Stoke at their ground and I couldn't care less that we conceded 3 goals.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2014, 09:23:42 pm »

Also, a bit rough on the defense yesterday with a completely altered CM line-up.  How many of our goals this season can be directly related to a piss-poor pass/giveaway in central midfield?  Even when we weren't giving the ball away and slipping like a baby giraffe trying to stand up on ice, there was no real discernible shape to the team.  It was an awkward game to say the least.  Think Rodgers got away with some tinkering.  Didn't like the way the formation took Henderson completely out of the game.  For me, this was the biggest downside of our setup.  Henderson was anonymous. 


I'm not too sure that's right. We may have changed shape with the Sturridge sub, but before that, we had a clear 4-1-2-3 formation (based on average positions):




We might have left a few gaps between the lines, and the counter-attacking game meant there was space between the attacking 5 and the defensive 5 at times, but we definitely had a shape about us.
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Offline OldBloke

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2014, 09:24:55 pm »
I am putting our defensive lapses down to brain freeze caused by the weather.
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Offline MobileBayRed

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2014, 09:31:41 pm »
I'm not too sure that's right. We may have changed shape with the Sturridge sub, but before that, we had a clear 4-1-2-3 formation (based on average positions):




We might have left a few gaps between the lines, and the counter-attacking game meant there was space between the attacking 5 and the defensive 5 at times, but we definitely had a shape about us.

And that may be true based on average positions, all I know is that watching the game there didn't seem to be as much shape as we normally have, or maybe more to the point, it wasn't the same 4-1-2-3 that we normally play.  Several times I thought our spacing was terrible.  SG and LL were too close to each other, or we seemed to have trouble at times switching field because SG wasn't where Toure or Skrtel expected him to be.  Just think that there were some kinks based off of Toure and Skrtel playing together (not used to working with each other, and both wanting the ball on their right foot), as well as swapping SG and LL.
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Offline n00bert

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2014, 09:33:38 pm »
A great win on a ground that has been difficult for us.

The positives:

First and foremost the mental fortitude that Mr Rodgers has been able to instill in this lot of players. When it was pulled back to 2-2 I feared what a  lot of Liverpool fans must have feared and on our previous track record we would have capitulated and lost the game. But no, this is a team that believes it can win and even against the likes of City and Chelsea we showed that there is some fight in the lads. Yes, there have been a few small cracks most notably for me against Hull and Southampton where we just couldn't seem to get going - but on a whole I feel that this Liverpool team has the mental edge now to go on to do great things. Hyperbolic? Maybe, but it's games against the likes of Stoke  on a wet and windy winter's day after throwing a perfectly good 2-0 that you have to dig deep.

Second, the SAS. Fuck me, this is a strike partnership that could really, really be something special. Both really technically good footballers, one with ridiculous pace the other with even ridiculous guile. Impressive to see Sturridge come back and look as if he hasn't even been gone. Add to that a Raheem Sterling who has proved many doubters (including me) wrong and this is a forward line that has so much potential. It's all the more impressive considering Coutinho hasn't rediscovered his form of last season.

Third, 5 goals away from home at the Brittania where they have previously conceded only 7 goals. Where the likes of Chelsea lost and City couldn't win. Pretty bloody impressive.

Negatives:

Conceding, 3 goals that I think could have been prevented. I'm getting really worried about Johnson, although he looked quite lively towards the end of the match and at the very least did something positive. His defensive lapses, his inability to play one v one with against less than stellar wingers/forwards and the fact that he doesn't block enough crosses for me is very alarming. If there is anything we need to look at this window is a RB and while I rate Kelly, I don't think he's an upgrade on Johnson in the attacking sense and I reckon he's more suited to CB anyway.

Mignolet for the third is a tad concerning. Yes, he may be unsighted for that goal but you'd expect him to stop a trickle-ish shot straight at him. Did make some pretty important stops (that reaction save from Stevie's OG attempt comes to mind) but I'd expect him to much, much more solid. Thank fuck we are scoring goals at the moment or his frailties may have been more costly. I do believe that it's a temporary dip in form so he'll be back to his best soon enough.

General thoughts:

I know why we played Gerrard in the 'QB' role, but I don't think he's the right fit. I could be wrong considering it's his first full game back from injury and he is no longer a spring chicken and there were occasions when his distribution out the back was pretty good. There were also occassions where he played it straight to the opponents and left us extremely exposed at the back. It may be worth persisting with him in this position as I've often felt that he lacks the legs to press further up the field in the Rodgers system.

Lucas too looked uncomfortable higher up the field but I can see his usefulness there. He presses well and intelligently, knows when to step in and you get that feeling that when he decides to make a tackle it's not going to leave us exposed at the back. At the moment he lacks that attacking intelligence though, but IIRC he used to play AM for Gremio back in the day so he may get better in that position.

I think we need an Alonso-eque player to play in the Gerrard position long term and a combination of Lucas/Allen/Henderson to play in that 1-2. Alonso-eque in that he has good reading of the game, defensively sound, and a ridiculous passing range. The type of player that may well cost us £40m. I'd play Lucas/Hendo against bigger more physical teams and Allen/Hendo against the more mobile midfield. It was at times painful to watch Allen get completely bullied by Yaya Toure, but I reckon he could do a job against the Willians/Oscar/Hazard type midfield.


Offline DutchRed

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2014, 09:35:42 pm »
You make a valid point on the standard of defending in the league, but I maintain that the art of defending had long since died but this season more than ever, it's becoming apparent. We're not the only ones with defensive worries however and our concerns are not as bad as others I feel!

No, but that's the thing I think we need to look at and press on with. Arsenal, Man City, even Mourinho's Chelsea are letting in goals for fun. If we can really tighten up the defence in a Benitez-like way, who knows where we'd end up..
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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2014, 09:59:33 pm »
I know people say the defensive frailties don't matter, cos we're scoring a shit load of goals. And to an extent they're right.

Scoring goals is very difficult, the most difficult part of the game. And we're making it look quite easy right now which is dandy, really it is. Good teams score goals, thats how you win games. But very good teams also don't let a lot in.

If you look at the top performing teams in Europe this season, there's a pattern (or it seems to me there is) about how often they shut the other team out.

Arsenal (before tonight) have kept a clean sheet in 45% of their games.
Chelsea in 38%
City in 38%
Roma in 63%
Juve 57%
Napoli 36%
Atletico 52%
Barca 52%
Real 31%
Bayern 56%

Ours is 28.5%.

Seems to me there's a very genuine trend there that if you want to win, or challenge for, a title then 'just' scoring a lot of goals isn't going to get you there without also keeping the opposition out quite a lot of the time.

Expectations of us right now aren't necessarily to be one of those clubs, yet. But we'd like to be eventually I'm sure. It'd be nice right now if we could start making a few moves towards tightening things up in anticipation of it.

We know the attack works, clearly it does. Would it really take that much more away from us in an offensive sense if we were to look to improve at the other end?

Those clubs listed above still score plenty by and large. That they marry it with more defensive solidity is what allows them to be comfortably in their top rung rather than be striving towards it.

Surely this has to be our next aim?

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2014, 10:04:59 pm »
Neither Gerrard nor Lucas looked "uncomfortable" in their respective new or almost new roles vs Stoke.

Coutinho was sub-par in his defensive duties when Stoke would overload their right flank (our left flank).

Cissokho got beaten 1v1 once (when he got the yellow card).

Mignolet is not good in dealing with crosses and was majorly responsible for Stoke's 3rd goal.

Overall, good refereeing performance, by the way, for once.

When we're seeking to counter-attack, we must secure the first pass out before massively committing players forward. Better to be deliberate and perhaps miss the opportunity than to make a grave error and be left outnumbered off a bad pass or ricochet.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2014, 10:18:25 pm »
I know people say the defensive frailties don't matter, cos we're scoring a shit load of goals. And to an extent they're right.

Scoring goals is very difficult, the most difficult part of the game. And we're making it look quite easy right now which is dandy, really it is. Good teams score goals, thats how you win games. But very good teams also don't let a lot in.

If you look at the top performing teams in Europe this season, there's a pattern (or it seems to me there is) about how often they shut the other team out.

Arsenal (before tonight) have kept a clean sheet in 45% of their games.
Chelsea in 38%
City in 38%
Roma in 63%
Juve 57%
Napoli 36%
Atletico 52%
Barca 52%
Real 31%
Bayern 56%

Ours is 28.5%.

Seems to me there's a very genuine trend there that if you want to win, or challenge for, a title then 'just' scoring a lot of goals isn't going to get you there without also keeping the opposition out quite a lot of the time.

Expectations of us right now aren't necessarily to be one of those clubs, yet. But we'd like to be eventually I'm sure. It'd be nice right now if we could start making a few moves towards tightening things up in anticipation of it.

We know the attack works, clearly it does. Would it really take that much more away from us in an offensive sense if we were to look to improve at the other end?

Those clubs listed above still score plenty by and large. That they marry it with more defensive solidity is what allows them to be comfortably in their top rung rather than be striving towards it.

Surely this has to be our next aim?

The problem is that these figures could change for a lot of those clubs, as it could for us, by the end of the season. There's little under half a season to go. We won't know how important clean-sheets are to our progress until then. On top of that, how many of those clubs have largely settled back-fours, especially those with more than 50% clean sheets? I don't mean the same back four either, but maybe 5-6 players playing in the four spots? We've had two formations, and 11 players who have played in the defensive positions since the start of the season. Rotation is one thing, but we've gone a bit overboard, by design and circumstance in probably equal measure. The key point is that we're only conceding an average of 1 goal per game (plus some change), but we're scoring 2 goals per game (plus change). It won't take many clean sheets to reduce that average, and possibly put it back below 1 goal against per game, which is the target. I would guess that buying a right-sided central defender or right back (or Flanagan growing into that position) would shave some decimals off the goals against column.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2014, 10:21:51 pm »
The problem is that these figures could change for a lot of those clubs, as it could for us, by the end of the season. There's little under half a season to go. We won't know how important clean-sheets are to our progress until then. On top of that, how many of those clubs have largely settled back-fours, especially those with more than 50% clean sheets? I don't mean the same back four either, but maybe 5-6 players playing in the four spots? We've had two formations, and 11 players who have played in the defensive positions since the start of the season. Rotation is one thing, but we've gone a bit overboard, by design and circumstance in probably equal measure. The key point is that we're only conceding an average of 1 goal per game (plus some change), but we're scoring 2 goals per game (plus change). It won't take many clean sheets to reduce that average, and possibly put it back below 1 goal against per game, which is the target. I would guess that buying a right-sided central defender or right back (or Flanagan growing into that position) would shave some decimals off the goals against column.

PoP, first off, welcome back and hope you've recovered fully from the flu.

Misread that as right-sided midfielder. Sorry.

So, we currently have Skrtel and Toure as right-sided central defenders, and Johnson and Flanagan as non-converted right-sided fullbacks. Kelly and Toure have also featured at right back.

For me, so long as Coutinho is deployed on the left flank, no matter where he does operate in attack, we'll be vulnerable down the opposition's right-hand flank, as Coutinho, despite his improvement in terms of 'graft' and apparent 'endeavor' remains a liability in terms of defending, especially the 'over-load'.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 10:25:05 pm by GrkStav »
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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2014, 10:25:19 pm »
The problem is that these figures could change for a lot of those clubs, as it could for us, by the end of the season. There's little under half a season to go. We won't know how important clean-sheets are to our progress until then. On top of that, how many of those clubs have largely settled back-fours, especially those with more than 50% clean sheets? I don't mean the same back four either, but maybe 5-6 players playing in the four spots? We've had two formations, and 11 players who have played in the defensive positions since the start of the season. Rotation is one thing, but we've gone a bit overboard, by design and circumstance in probably equal measure. The key point is that we're only conceding an average of 1 goal per game (plus some change), but we're scoring 2 goals per game (plus change). It won't take many clean sheets to reduce that average, and possibly put it back below 1 goal against per game, which is the target. I would guess that buying a right-sided central defender or right back (or Flanagan growing into that position) would shave some decimals off the goals against column.

It could well do, but the question I'm asking is that if it did shave off a few points, then of how much benefit would it be?

Because it appears to me to be a lot.

The good clubs are hovering around the 30% mark, the very good around 40%. The giants surpassing even that. That's our aim ultimately isn't it? To get there.

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2014, 10:41:36 pm »
Someone mentioned Roy Evans and Kevin Keegan. Rightly.

Would love to see us with our strongest back four. Which means only GJ from yesterday- and that by default, given his drastic drop in form and, seemingly desire.

But nothing can take away the thrill of watching SS and now another S.

Sterling's improvement over this past - literally - month, is nothing short of astonishing.

The only negative? Jordan Henderson doing an impression of Jekyll and Hyde, entirely determined, it seems, by the presence of his hero in the starting 11.

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2014, 11:57:05 pm »
Talking about our defensive frailties probably needs to take into account our home vs. our away form, as we play vastly differently in each type of game and our record is very different (as is to be expected, to some extent I suppose). We are flat-track bullies at home, helped by the fact we've played a lot of the bottom teams, but nonetheless impressive. We are 7th in the table on the basis of our away form, which isn't a disaster but isn't great either. Granted, we've played arguably the 3 most difficult away games of the season already, which has influenced our results, but the problems are a bit deeper than that, imo.

Focusing on our away form over 11 games:
- Only Norwich, Fulham and Stoke have conceded more goals than us.
- We're 12th in the league for shots conceded per game, and of the teams below us only really Hull and Stoke are not currently relegation candidates. Every single one of our top four rivals ranks better, as do teams like Villa, Swansea and Crystal Palace.

Now I understand that we are the top scorers away from home, which is why this hasn't had as much of an impact points-wise as it might have done, but it's still concerning. We concede essentially 2 goals a game, and have conceded 3 on three separate occasions, twice against teams from the bottom half of the table. I mean even if you take out the Arsenal, City and Chelsea results, it doesn't make for great reading. For what it's worth - the average number of shots conceded over those 3 games is actually lower than our overall away average.

Yes, we have (arguably) the two most deadly strikers in the league, but if we are asking them to score 3 or 4 goals a game to win matches, then we are only going to progress so far. In only three of our games (Sunderland, Villa, Spurs) have we needed less than 3 or 4 goals to win it. In the other 8, where we have conceded 2 or more goals, we have won a single game and that was yesterday. One. Equating to 6 out of a possible 24 for these games. Even yesterday fortune played a role - with a huge deflection for our first, and a soft penalty for another. We score a lot of goals yes, but the overriding consistency in our away games is that we concede a lot. This means that results like Hull and disappointments like Newcastle (before you even get into the fact that they had 10 men) and Swansea (where we were gifted two goals) are going to be more commonplace than we really need them to be, because as good as Suarez/Sturridge are, it's not realistic to expect them to be able to score 3 or 4 in every single game.

I know we haven't had a settled defence. I know we've played a lot of difficult away games. The numbers are still troubling, though.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 12:02:07 am by holymoly »

Offline Garcepticon

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Re: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2014, 11:59:21 pm »
I initially had us for 75-85, depending on the way the season unfolded and the Suarez thing pre-season. My average was about 81. I think we can reach that if we do well in the next two games.

My other thought is that, looking back in the years, any team that was ever able to put together at least one winning run of 7 games or more has either come first or second. We're at 4 games right now. If we were to win the next three, I think we'll finish no lower than 3rd, and probably second. If through some stroke of luck and skill, we win every game until the Arsenal game, then I think we'll win the league, providing City don't put together a similar run. Those are the benchmarks I'll be looking at.

A winning streak of 7 games. A relentless march on to March. We look like a team capable of the metric PoP labels as a benchmark for title winning sides. Given the stop start nature of the past three seasons - we feel different right now, wholeheartedly pushing forward in attack and getting the goals we need to see off games. I have stopped doubting our ability to perform week in, week out.

I don't think you can praise Rodgers enough for bringing on Sturridge, the temptation could have been to shell and keep the lead. With that in mind, who thinks we looked like a team holding off Stoke? By my mind, we only had one way of winning that game and our Manager took the risky, pragmatic option and it absolutely paid dividends.

Also, we aren't dropping off in the second half anymore are we?