Topic: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell

[redmark]

Thing is, if he wasn't chasing to recover his own mistake there, I don't think he launches himself at the ball like that. It just looked like a player too eager to make up for a mistake.

Certainly it was his mistake, but I don't think it's being too eager - one of Moreno's key strengths is actually the agility that sees him make those types of tackles - some very important successful ones, some the more memorable and discussed errors. The (huge) question mark is in his judgement of when to use it; on the penalty decision, it was completely unnecessary.

[DanA]

He wasn't shit yesterday. Why is everyone ignoring his immaculate 2nd half?

There were 5-6 things that stood out in the first half. And I don't know if he was immaculate in the 2nd half or whether Arsenal just focused their attack  down the right side with Oxlade Chamberlain coming on as a sub with fresh legs.

Some of those things were:
- Rash tackles, especially the one giving away a penalty
- Heading the ball into a dangerous position
- Poor position, not just the goal but on several occasions he was too far forward

Maybe it's just me but I'm forgiving of a player getting beaten. I am however very unforgiving of someone doing stupid shit. For instance Clyne/Lallana getting beaten for Oxlade's goal, they were doing the right thing, they weren't reckless and positioned themselves well. They just got beaten by a great bit of skill. Not good but I can live with that kind of thing. 

[SC04OCT]

Everything down Clyne's right second half. Moreno was solid after the break. Clyne didn't exactly cover himself in glory for the 2nd goal and the cheap freekick which resulted in the third goal but isn't receiving a fraction of the fume from fans that Moreno is.

Which proves he's capable. If Klopp can work his magic on Moreno as he did with the likes of Lovren and Origi, then we're laughing.

[SC04OCT]

It's also worth mentioning that Moreno has saved our bacon several times with surging runs back to execute a last ditch sliding tackle.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Everything down Clyne's right second half. Moreno was solid after the break. Clyne didn't exactly cover himself in glory for the 2nd goal and the cheap freekick which resulted in the third goal but isn't receiving a fraction of the fume from fans that Moreno is.

Because we're seeing the same mistakes from Moreno time and time again and he isn't learning. Clyne got done for the second goal but that's a very rare occurrence. 

[Purple Red]

It's also worth mentioning that Morerno has saved our bacon several times with surging runs back to execute a last ditch sliding tackle.

Often because the problem has been of his own making, like yesterday when he headed a free header into the path of an opponent in his own box.

[northern Monkey]

Laying into him for the Walcott goal is silly and what makes it appear a witch hunt. IMO, he absolutely was NOT out of position. He was doing his job and preparing to run into the massive amount  of space down that side if Arsenals defence.

We don't lose the ball in the middle and ball is played out to our left... and we are all saying how well he supports the attack.  That comes at a cost.  Opposition coaches aren't stupid and they know that when he pushes, as he clearly is instructed to, that's where the space is.  That's not the fellas fault, it's a fault of either;

1. The tactics.
2. The teams implementation.

The press narrative of him always being  out of position is out of all proportion compared to reality.  Other players in the team need to cover his forward runs better if it's what Klopp wants from Moreno.

All that said, Moreno isn't and shouldn't be immune to criticism.  He was needlessly rash for the penalty when there was no need to make a challenge at all imo.. should have just shepherded away from goal.  He did make a couple of other small mistakes but really other than the penalty, if it was Clyne making them yesterday for examole, he wouldn't be getting crucified in the same way.

[Anfield89]

Everything down Clyne's right second half. Moreno was solid after the break. Clyne didn't exactly cover himself in glory for the 2nd goal and the cheap freekick which resulted in the third goal but isn't receiving a fraction of the fume from fans that Moreno is.

Clyne is consistently good that's why. He should have showed chamberlain down the outside yes could have done better. If he keeps showing people inside on their stronger foot all season he will get critised.

[Kochevnik]

He wasn't shit yesterday. Why is everyone ignoring his immaculate 2nd half?

No idea, mate.  Maybe it has something to do with the horror show he put on first half?

[-Willo-]

I can't support a guy who doesn't care enough to learn, he dived in the box after a mistake prior to the pen and I was thinking ''What are you doing..?''. They got a corner off it but all it took is the Arsenal lad to recognise it was fucking Moreno and swivel around and it was a pen. He just doesn't learn, either he's shite or doesn't care. That's how I feel.

Give it a few more weeks and he will have unnecessarily dived in on a player to give a penalty away again, or will be caught out of position because he's literally not thinking. We need a replacement as soon as possible, its so apparent that he isn't good enough.

[SC04OCT]

Often because the problem has been of his own making, like yesterday when he headed a free header into the path of an opponent in his own box.

Clearly I am not talking about those occasions. I'm talking about when the opposition breaks clean through.

[Cpt_Reina]

Because we're seeing the same mistakes from Moreno time and time again and he isn't learning. Clyne got done for the second goal but that's a very rare occurrence.

Yep.

Goodwill, the sort which Hendo/Lallana/Clyne are experiencing in making mistakes yesterday which are mentioned less than Moreno's is earned and not given as a prerequisite.

Those players have earned the right to make a mistake because they're solid usually and have delivered in the past.

Moreno gets very little leeway because he's never been solid, never had a period of excellent form or even consistently ok form.

If Moreno would like to stop getting called out for making stupid as fuck mistakes he should cut down on the amount of stupid as fuck mistakes he makes. The last competitive game he played was to cost us a European trophy lest we forget.

[clinical]

The only thing left as to why we haven't bought a left back is we simply can't afford a good one. We have a net spend of £24m which is huge for fsg

[SwordInYourGut]

Certainly it was his mistake, but I don't think it's being too eager - one of Moreno's key strengths is actually the agility that sees him make those types of tackles - some very important successful ones, some the more memorable and discussed errors. The (huge) question mark is in his judgement of when to use it; on the penalty decision, it was completely unnecessary.

Agreed. I'd just rather he made these amazing tackles outside the box or when the opponent is about take on a high percentage shot. Ramsey did not have a decent angle for a shot in this particular instance, same as Walcott for the pen. Would rather he just jockeyed the opponent in such cases, because no forward, not even Walcott is going to do him for pace from a standing start.

[DanA]

Because we're seeing the same mistakes from Moreno time and time again and he isn't learning. Clyne got done for the second goal but that's a very rare occurrence. 

Exactly.

To me it's like playing poker. There's bad beats and then there's dumb arse decision that just throws money away. 

[King Klopp.]

He wasn't shit yesterday. Why is everyone ignoring his immaculate 2nd half?

Because not being a joke for 45 minutes is a laughable standard to hold a player to. Well done you werent shit for 45 minutes. Shame he was shit the other 45 minutes.

Honestly, the fact his standard isn't even being good game by game but at the point of half by half says everything.

[LJA]

Couldn't find an open thread for Alberto.

I just wanted to say, the character assassination in this press towards this guy is unbelievable. It’s truly disgusting. I mean, even retired Liverpool players are laying into this guy. I thought they’d want us to do well? Surely saying the things they saying in the press/on television are going to have a negative effect on the poor guy and destroy his confidence?

The worst part is all this shit has come off the back of what, in my opinion, wasn’t even that bad of a game! Okay, he gave away a penalty, but that can happen to anyone (and I still don’t really think it was a clear cut penalty) and after that he had a dodgy few minutes, which is understandable, but apart from that he was solid. In the second half he had Walcott so deep in his back pocket that Arsenal had to resort to bringing Chamberlain on to run at Clyne instead, but not one mention of this anywhere. He also contributed to our dominate period going forward, working well with Wijnaldum.

People are acting like it’s Moreno’s fault that we conceded 3 goals, but he wasn’t at fault for a single one of them.

Imagine what it could do for the guy's confidence if we actually all got behind him and supported him. We've seen what he's capable of, we know there's a player there (so does Klopp), so let's get behind him and let him know that the negative press can fuck off.

/rant.

The bolded put is ridiculous. He was rubbish in the first half. He couldn't have been much worse, he was all over the place and it wasn't just a few minutes. It was a clear cut pen and making stupid challenges like that doesn't just happen to anyone.  How can think it wasn't clear cut is beyond me.

As for the press, they can say what they want. They are paid to give their opinion. I don't think Moreno can or would complain about the press he is getting.

Any player will have my support but that dosn't mean we can't be honest about how someone played.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

he needs taking out of the firing line. I'm sure he won't, but if Klopp continues to play him if his performances are similair to yesterday then some of the flack will be due his way as well.

Was it Rodgers or Klopp who did that with Mignolet?

[-Willo-]

Was it Rodgers or Klopp who did that with Mignolet?

Rodgers I think

[CraigDS]

The only thing left as to why we haven't bought a left back is we simply can't afford a good one. We have a net spend of £24m which is huge for fsg

I'd ask to see your maths but we both know there is nothing to back it up.

Yes, yes I know you'll point towards the past as proof, but revenues have risen dramatically since those figures.

[DanA]

Question.

How do we benefit from Moreno getting forward.  When have we ever benefited from him getting on his bike early and linking with the attack?

I'm not talking about overlapping once the opposition is set defending deep either, or when he's won the ball and carrying it forward. He can go nuts then.   

[slaphead]

Keeping Moreno on the pitch rather than subbing him at half time was a brilliant and brave piece of management by Klopp.
The easiest thing would have been to take him off, but he stuck with his man ensuring 2 things

1. He didn't rip Moreno's confidence to shred's
2. He let Arsenal know very clearly that them continuing to play down our left side was only going to result in us pushing further forward and hitting them if the move broke down.

With Moreno not bombing forward as much in the left Arsenal didn't really know what to do for a period.
I'm not going to sit here and tear Moreno a new one - he busts his bullocks for us.
Personally I think theres a real player in there somewhere but time will tell. I also think that for this season to be a big success we need an upgrade.
Positional sense can be coached, Awareness can be improved. Some are natural at it but Moreno appears to me to be a player who will keep trying to improve himself.

[DanA]

Keeping Moreno on the pitch rather than subbing him at half time was a brilliant and brave piece of management by Klopp.
The easiest thing would have been to take him off, but he stuck with his man ensuring 2 things

1. He didn't rip Moreno's confidence to shred's
2. He let Arsenal know very clearly that them continuing to play down our left side was only going to result in us pushing further forward and hitting them if the move broke down.

With Moreno not bombing forward as much in the left Arsenal didn't really know what to do for a period.
I'm not going to sit here and tear Moreno a new one - he busts his bullocks for us.
Personally I think theres a real player in there somewhere but time will tell. I also think that for this season to be a big success we need an upgrade.
Positional sense can be coached, Awareness can be improved. Some are natural at it but Moreno appears to me to be a player who will keep trying to improve himself.

Take him off for who. Who was there that could fill in at LB?

[SC04OCT]

Keeping Moreno on the pitch rather than subbing him at half time was a brilliant and brave piece of management by Klopp.
The easiest thing would have been to take him off, but he stuck with his man ensuring 2 things

1. He didn't rip Moreno's confidence to shred's
2. He let Arsenal know very clearly that them continuing to play down our left side was only going to result in us pushing further forward and hitting them if the move broke down.

With Moreno not bombing forward as much in the left Arsenal didn't really know what to do for a period.
I'm not going to sit here and tear Moreno a new one - he busts his bullocks for us.
Personally I think theres a real player in there somewhere but time will tell. I also think that for this season to be a big success we need an upgrade.
Positional sense can be coached, Awareness can be improved. Some are natural at it but Moreno appears to me to be a player who will keep trying to improve himself.

Good post.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Question.

How do we benefit from Moreno getting forward.  When have we ever benefited from him getting on his bike early and linking with the attack?

I'm not talking about overlapping once the opposition is set defending deep either, or when he's won the ball and carrying it forward. He can go nuts then.

I really don't see why he has to go so early all the time. He has so much pace that he can afford to wait a few seconds until possession is secured before sprinting to join the attack.

[SC04OCT]

Take him off for who. Who was there that could fill in at LB?

He could easily have moved Klavan to the left and brought on Matip, or moved Clyne to the left and stuck Can at RB. I'm sure to some of you, those are better options than keeping Moreno on.

[DanA]

He could easily have moved Klavan to the left and brought on Matip, or moved Clyne to the left and stuck Can at RB. I'm sure to some of you, those are better options than keeping Moreno on.

So the alternative was to play a back four never previously used and likely not even practiced......that's not a realistic alternative in my book.

[northern Monkey]

He didn't go so early in the second half though.  I honestly think a lot of the criticism he is getting is for following tactical instruction. Forget the press and pundit reactions and look at Klopps.  Didn't look to be the reaction of a manager frustrated with a player not following instructions.

[PeterTheRed ...]

The only thing left as to why we haven't bought a left back is we simply can't afford a good one. We have a net spend of £24m which is huge for fsg

2011/12 - £35.4 million
2012/13 - £41.3 million
2013/14 - £20.3 million
2014/15 - £38.4 million
2015/16 - £28.0 million

[SquirrelandGman]

Yes hes shit at defending..but klopps the one sticking with him and not buying any left backs(yet).

I'm sure theres a fix somewhere but abusing him on social media isnt helping him play any better.

[AndyMuller]

I want him to succeed as he seems a good lad but I just can't see it happening anytime soon.

He's just too reckless and his positional awareness is very poor.

[DanA]

Yes hes shit at defending..but klopps the one sticking with him and not buying any left backs(yet).

I'm sure theres a fix somewhere but abusing him on social media isnt helping him play any better.

Don't think anybody here is an advocate of twitter twats abusing him. But discussing it on the forum, within the guidelines of what RAWK have made clear is acceptable is fine.

[boots]

I can remember when Lucas was a liability but he came good. Bert will sort it out. Hes a good player.

[CraigDS]

I can remember when Lucas was a liability but he came good. Bert will sort it out. Hes a good player.

Lucas was never a liability, plenty just didn't respect the good he did and generally didn't think he was good enough.

[DanA]

Lucas was never a liability, plenty just didn't respect the good he did and generally didn't think he was good enough.

My thoughts exactly. Lucas got booed because he wasn't Alonso or Gerrard but he's was never a liability in the way Moreno, Konchesky or Paulsen were. And I genuinely think Moreno is in that category of player.

[Anfield89]

I can remember when Lucas was a liability but he came good. Bert will sort it out. Hes a good player.

He was poor first season like hendo, never a liability. This is Moreno's 3rd and he's not improved.

[Cpt_Reina]

Yeah Lucas didnt become an actual liability until after his good spell of form, completely different scenario.

[Redman0151]

He needs a brain transplant, unless he spends his days reading Twitter abuse and browsing RAWK he's getting plenty of support at the match

[pyroparty]

Everything down Clyne's right second half. Moreno was solid after the break. Clyne didn't exactly cover himself in glory for the 2nd goal and the cheap freekick which resulted in the third goal but isn't receiving a fraction of the fume from fans that Moreno is.

You genuinely can't work out why? Sami Hyypia and Carra got less stick for making mistakes than Skrtel did, it's not hard to see why!

[ohweloveyerbaldyhead]

Have to agree our support is looking for the negatives in him 100%. He's not the best but you can see there is a player in there somewhere and if we're patient with him he might just reach his potential; if not then we sell him. Ultimately he's out left back at the minute so might as well get behind him. For me their first goal is very reminiscent of Villareal's goal in the semi of the Europa last season in the away leg. For me Moreno must be getting told to bomb on when we win the ball back, our midfield then loses it and he's constantly being made to look at fault when we're then picked off down our left. For me I wasn't overly happy with the team balance yesterday especially in the first half as I thought Klopp would've sorted in during pre season. Our midfield is lacking in controlling the tempo of play and in providing adequate cover for our backline. It was consistent during Rodgers' reign and has improved though is still  major issue during Klopp's. It seems like every time we get the ball the midfield tries to move it forward no matter what the situation and get forward quickly, too often we lose the ball and find ourselves out of position and made to look foolish. We're missing that Alonso type figure for me who can knock the ball around and keep us in possession and then launch an attack. We're far too open and it showed massively yesterday; at 4-1 we should be able to kill the game off and keep hold of the ball. Instead we continued to play the same way and it almost cost us. Unfortunately for Moreno given his style of getting forward our midfield frailties will make him look worse than he actually is.

I'm not blindly defending Moreno here, his tackle for the pen was shambolic. That header straight to wilshere and challenge that followed can't be defended. But I do believe he's a talented player and if our balance in midfield gets sorted he'd be less of a scapegoat and could potentially focus on working on the areas of his game that do desperately need work.