Author Topic: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!  (Read 945162 times)

Offline Roger Federer

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2014, 10:07:44 am »
Who know's this could lead to a turning point in the corrupt, capitalist way the world is being run.
Are there a more corrupt, aggressive and extremely capitalist bunch of people than the rulers of Russia today? I'm sure there are some across the world, but the gangsters around, and including Putin, must be up there. They have almost complete control of the state, the juridical system, and are among the richest people in the world. They oppress the ordinary Russian that don't buy into their way of doing things, not least the LBGT-community, and although there are a few exemples of independent press, much of it is also controlled by Putin, including for example RT.

Fair enough if you long for another, more fair, political system, but hoping that Putin and his gangster capitalists are the ones to change it, is utterly bizzare.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 10:09:28 am by Roger Federer »

Offline Maggie May

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2014, 11:01:46 am »
Well apparently these is a Vlad calender with 12 piccies of him with his shirt off doing the white horse riding through mountain streams thing and so forth.  On the other hand, there is the Cats Protection one with 12 piccies of kittycats who have been adopted nestling in soft warm blankets in baskets and playing with fluffy things on the end of some sort of wand.  Which to choose? 

PS.  In some of the Vlad ones he looks well ard and ruthless.   :lickin
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 11:04:08 am by Maggie May »
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Offline viteslesrouges

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2014, 11:23:21 am »
Are there a more corrupt, aggressive and extremely capitalist bunch of people than the rulers of Russia today?

No need to look any further than Westminster.
Quote
Fair enough if you long for another, more fair, political system, but hoping that Putin and his gangster capitalists are the ones to change it, is utterly bizzare.
Indeed.

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Offline Maggie May

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2014, 11:26:07 am »
Shame you couldn't play last night, how's the back :) ?

Excellent.   :thumbup :wellin
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Offline Roger Federer

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2014, 12:20:47 pm »
No need to look any further than Westminster.
You sure about that? Corruption takes place everywhere, but I doubt Westminster's (all of them are the same, or?) influence over the ordinary citizen's life is anywhere near that of Putin's. I'd guess that no one man in Britian has even close to the same control over the state, capital, media and the justice system as Putin does in Russia, but feel free to point out where I'm wrong. Even though there's still plenty to fix, I imagine (not being from or living there) life in England in general is far better in almost every aspect. The corruption is less, the courts more independant, the press more free, there's freedom of speech, the capital is more fairly distributed (though still highly unequal of course) and so on. Not to mention the football and LFC...I know to which place I'd rather move, that's for sure.

Quote
Indeed.

Shame you couldn't play last night, how's the back :) ?
Haha, a massive disapointment indeed. Hopefully will be back in time for AO next year!  ;)

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2014, 01:01:11 pm »
To quote the novel Hunt for Red October, "Rattling a sabre makes noise; drawing it does not."
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Offline ShayGuevara

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2014, 01:17:52 pm »
Are there a more corrupt, aggressive and extremely capitalist bunch of people than the rulers of Russia today? I'm sure there are some across the world, but the gangsters around, and including Putin, must be up there. They have almost complete control of the state, the juridical system, and are among the richest people in the world. They oppress the ordinary Russian that don't buy into their way of doing things, not least the LBGT-community, and although there are a few exemples of independent press, much of it is also controlled by Putin, including for example RT.

Fair enough if you long for another, more fair, political system, but hoping that Putin and his gangster capitalists are the ones to change it, is utterly bizzare.

Not change it, expose it.

Any big organisation or person in power will cling to their power by any means necessary. Where there is power there will always be corruption it's just human nature unfortunately.

However, it would be nice if we were told a little bit more of the truth instead of people denying the world is being ran by corrupt, capitalist corporation's rather than by ballot box and elected presidents/governments as we are all lead to believe. The media and the lack of exposure they have shown regarding this speech is a great example.   
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Offline armchair-fan

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2014, 08:52:22 pm »
Are there a more corrupt, aggressive and extremely capitalist bunch of people than the rulers of Russia today? I'm sure there are some across the world, but the gangsters around, and including Putin, must be up there. They have almost complete control of the state, the juridical system, and are among the richest people in the world. They oppress the ordinary Russian that don't buy into their way of doing things, not least the LBGT-community, and although there are a few exemples of independent press, much of it is also controlled by Putin, including for example RT.

Fair enough if you long for another, more fair, political system, but hoping that Putin and his gangster capitalists are the ones to change it, is utterly bizzare.

I couldn't agree more Roger. 

And the idea that the levels of corruption in Westminster are in any way comparable to those in Putin's Russia is more bizarre still.

Offline viteslesrouges

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2014, 09:45:57 pm »
You sure about that? Corruption takes place everywhere, but I doubt Westminster's (all of them are the same, or?) influence over the ordinary citizen's life is anywhere near that of Putin's. I'd guess that no one man in Britian has even close to the same control over the state, capital, media and the justice system as Putin does in Russia, but feel free to point out where I'm wrong. Even though there's still plenty to fix, I imagine (not being from or living there) life in England in general is far better in almost every aspect. The corruption is less, the courts more independant, the press more free, there's freedom of speech, the capital is more fairly distributed (though still highly unequal of course) and so on. Not to mention the football and LFC...I know to which place I'd rather move, that's for sure.
Haha, a massive disapointment indeed. Hopefully will be back in time for AO next year!  ;)

A quick look round this sub-forum you'll come across threads on corruption in our political classes, financial industry, press, entertainment industry and the judiciary.  The one currently in the news is the Westminster paedophile ring allegations which has now spawned murder investigations. Truly bizarre eh?  ;)
Capital isn't, and never has been, fairly distributed in the UK, and that inequality has deepened over the last 4 years.
That doesn't mean you're wrong about Putin, far from it.
Yes, there's football though that's not what it used to be.
I suppose it depends where you live as to how you compare it with the UK.

The ball's in your court.  :)
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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2014, 01:52:09 am »
Putin sounds like the bad guy in a game of C&C Red Alert sometimes. Terrifying.

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2014, 09:20:02 am »
A quick look round this sub-forum you'll come across threads on corruption in our political classes, financial industry, press, entertainment industry and the judiciary.  The one currently in the news is the Westminster paedophile ring allegations which has now spawned murder investigations. Truly bizarre eh?  ;)
Capital isn't, and never has been, fairly distributed in the UK, and that inequality has deepened over the last 4 years.
That doesn't mean you're wrong about Putin, far from it.
Yes, there's football though that's not what it used to be.
I suppose it depends where you live as to how you compare it with the UK.

The ball's in your court.  :)

Well, we could continue with the "your country is more corrupt than mine" remarks in a completely subjective manner.

Or you could look at an objective measure of corruption in all countries, such as the 2013 index from Transparency International, which finds the UK at 14 and Russia at 127 (out of 177 countries). A pretty clear difference there.

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2013/results

Offline Roger Federer

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2014, 09:23:38 am »
The ball's in your court.  :)
I didn't mean the UK was perfect or free from corruption by any means, my comparision was between the UK and Russia. There is an extreme concentration of power around Putin and his closest allies, and the whole society in general is far more corrupt. Life is simply more difficult in pratically every aspect, and I don't agree that all of Westminster is as bad as Putin and his gang.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 09:30:58 am by Roger Federer »

Offline viteslesrouges

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2014, 10:13:34 am »
Well, we could continue with the "your country is more corrupt than mine" remarks in a completely subjective manner.

Or you could look at an objective measure of corruption in all countries, such as the 2013 index from Transparency International, which finds the UK at 14 and Russia at 127 (out of 177 countries). A pretty clear difference there.

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2013/results

Very interesting link, thanks for it. I had a look round but didn't delve into how their surveys are conducted, maybe when time permits I'll get back in there.

There is a pretty clear difference in those figures but to be fair, my only interest is in corruption in the UK and what can be done about it, which affects me and mine.
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Offline Red Beret

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2014, 10:16:13 am »

Or you could look at an objective measure of corruption in all countries, such as the 2013 index from Transparency International, which finds the UK at 14 and Russia at 127 (out of 177 countries). A pretty clear difference there.

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2013/results

Russia's clearly paid somebody off there ;)
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Offline conman

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2014, 10:24:59 am »
Well, we could continue with the "your country is more corrupt than mine" remarks in a completely subjective manner.

Or you could look at an objective measure of corruption in all countries, such as the 2013 index from Transparency International, which finds the UK at 14 and Russia at 127 (out of 177 countries). A pretty clear difference there.

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2013/results
Ireland is in 21st place, hahaha... Our government is corrupt as fuck!

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2014, 10:44:25 am »
I hate the arrogant NKVD bastard, but it must be a fucking nightmare keeping an empire that vast and fucked up together and thinking as one, lol. 

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2014, 10:46:18 am »
Hardly a shock when a politician tries to do a bit of sabre rattling to distract people from the fact that their economy is heading down the toilet.

Although to be fair Putin is more of a mafia don than a politician.

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2014, 12:08:41 pm »
Well, we could continue with the "your country is more corrupt than mine" remarks in a completely subjective manner.

Or you could look at an objective measure of corruption in all countries, such as the 2013 index from Transparency International, which finds the UK at 14 and Russia at 127 (out of 177 countries). A pretty clear difference there.

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2013/results
Corruption across EU 'breathtaking' - EU Commission
EU Commissioner Cecilia Malmstrom: "Price of not acting is too high"
Fears over 'widespread' EU fraud
The extent of corruption in Europe is "breathtaking" and it costs the EU economy at least 120bn euros (£99bn) annually, the European Commission says.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387
 :o
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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2014, 03:15:15 pm »
Corruption across EU 'breathtaking' - EU Commission
EU Commissioner Cecilia Malmstrom: "Price of not acting is too high"
Fears over 'widespread' EU fraud
The extent of corruption in Europe is "breathtaking" and it costs the EU economy at least 120bn euros (£99bn) annually, the European Commission says.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387
 :o
Reading that article, again the UK seems to be one of the better countries when it comes to corruption in everyday life, so not sure what your point is. Russia isn't even mentioned, obviously.

Offline scumbagcollege

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2014, 04:14:05 pm »
Reading that article, again the UK seems to be one of the better countries when it comes to corruption in everyday life, so not sure what your point is. Russia isn't even mentioned, obviously.
If I had a point, it would be that the EU block of countries are putting an actual figure on how corrupt they actually are, which would give people a base to work from when comparing corruption.
The transparency.org figures are 'perceptions' though, so I don't know how one would go about using its stats to compare with, say, the EU figures?
Also, is Freemasonry in the UK taken into consideration when discussing corruption? :-\
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Offline conman

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2014, 04:39:12 pm »
If I had a point, it would be that the EU block of countries are putting an actual figure on how corrupt they actually are, which would give people a base to work from when comparing corruption.
The transparency.org figures are 'perceptions' though, so I don't know how one would go about using its stats to compare with, say, the EU figures?
Also, is Freemasonry in the UK taken into consideration when discussing corruption? :-\

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2014, 05:13:52 pm »

How about the USA stopping the cycle of arming terrorists on Putin's own borders?

I sincerely hope you're not referring to eastern Ukraine.

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #63 on: December 9, 2014, 09:29:57 am »
For those posters who like to see Putin stick it to the corrupt West.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/08/russia-europe-right-putin-front-national-eu
We should beware Russia’s links with Europe’s right
Moscow is handing cash to the Front National and others in order to exploit popular dissent against the European Union

Well I guess Russia has never had any problem jumping into bed with Fascists when the occasion demands it.
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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #64 on: December 9, 2014, 03:48:47 pm »
Or you know, beating their butts, when the occasion demands it.

Low blow, bro.

Yes, truly. As I said, "when the occasion demands it". Principles, however, don't come into it.
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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #65 on: December 9, 2014, 04:48:55 pm »
For those posters who like to see Putin stick it to the corrupt West.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/08/russia-europe-right-putin-front-national-eu
We should beware Russia’s links with Europe’s right
Moscow is handing cash to the Front National and others in order to exploit popular dissent against the European Union

Well I guess Russia has never had any problem jumping into bed with Fascists when the occasion demands it.

palestine also had links to the right wing in the uk

ukraine would have stuck with russia but their drug lords want to gain access to european markets more freely.............thats why this all kicked off.
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Offline BoRed

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #66 on: December 9, 2014, 04:57:51 pm »
Yes, truly. As I said, "when the occasion demands it". Principles, however, don't come into it.

Much the same as anyone else then.

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #67 on: December 9, 2014, 05:02:10 pm »
For those posters who like to see Putin stick it to the corrupt West.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/08/russia-europe-right-putin-front-national-eu
We should beware Russia’s links with Europe’s right
Moscow is handing cash to the Front National and others in order to exploit popular dissent against the European Union

Well I guess Russia has never had any problem jumping into bed with Fascists when the occasion demands it.

Quote
The Kremlin has also discovered that the western political system is weak, permeable and susceptible to foreign cash. Putin has always believed that European politicians, like Russian ones, can be bought if the money is right. According to US diplomatic cables leaked in 2010, Silvio Berlusconi has benefited “personally and handsomely” from energy deals with Russia; the former German chancellor Gerhard Schröder, Putin’s greatest European ally, sits on the board of the Nord Steam Russian-German gas pipeline.
  :o :D
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Offline JMc1984

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #68 on: December 9, 2014, 06:21:44 pm »
For those posters who like to see Putin stick it to the corrupt West.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/08/russia-europe-right-putin-front-national-eu
We should beware Russia’s links with Europe’s right
Moscow is handing cash to the Front National and others in order to exploit popular dissent against the European Union

Well I guess Russia has never had any problem jumping into bed with Fascists when the occasion demands it.

The hundreds of people killed by NATO's Operation Gladio terrorism (and political assassinations, coup d'états, involvment with various mafia groups) are glad it was the noble democratic governments of the West that murdered them rather than those dirty ruskies.

Not to mention the billions the west has spent on fomenting political unrest in ukraine over the last few years.

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #69 on: December 9, 2014, 09:50:35 pm »
The hundreds of people killed by NATO's Operation Gladio terrorism (and political assassinations, coup d'états, involvment with various mafia groups) are glad it was the noble democratic governments of the West that murdered them rather than those dirty ruskies.

Not to mention the billions the west has spent on fomenting political unrest in ukraine over the last few years.

I wouldn't say our democracy was "noble" but we're bloody glad it's for real aren't we? Being honest like.
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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2014, 01:58:04 am »
Putin is just angry because he's so short



Didn't seem to bother Stalin much. and he was 5'4 !!

It's very interesting. I've been having a lot of interactions with Russians lately (Different age, gender, style), and almost all absolutely fucking love him. He's very popular in Russia by the sound of things.

I also think he's the biggest "personality" in today's politics. Like the sort of person, that will be talked about in 70 years time....can't say the same about leaders of any western nations.

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2014, 09:33:27 am »
Didn't seem to bother Stalin much. and he was 5'4 !!

It's very interesting. I've been having a lot of interactions with Russians lately (Different age, gender, style), and almost all absolutely fucking love him. He's very popular in Russia by the sound of things.

I also think he's the biggest "personality" in today's politics. Like the sort of person, that will be talked about in 70 years time....can't say the same about leaders of any western nations.

1. Perhaps it did bother Stalin. Maybe that's one of the reasons 20 million people had to be despatched during his Reign of Terror?

2. They do seem to love him. But they somehow still seem to revere the great Stalin too. It might be something to do with ordinary Russians never having developed a culture of democracy.

3. And, yes, 70 years later we still talk about Stalin (and Hitler and Mussolini). Less so about Stanley Baldwin, Leon Blum and Edvard Benes.
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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2014, 09:46:59 am »
I also think he's the biggest "personality" in today's politics. Like the sort of person, that will be talked about in 70 years time....can't say the same about leaders of any western nations.

I'm pretty sure Obama will be going down in history.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2014, 10:45:57 pm »
Russian interest rates up to 17%....

Economy on the rocks....
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Offline BazC

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #74 on: December 15, 2014, 11:08:13 pm »
I saw Ruble fall 10% today, and now they're hiking rates to 17%. Tomorrow's going to be a mess.
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #75 on: December 15, 2014, 11:29:11 pm »
Not nice. I can recall when Soros led the attacks against the SEK and the £. We had interest rates go up to 500% and an economic crises that followed.

I wonder how this will affect Putin's position of power.

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Offline Ray K

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #76 on: December 16, 2014, 01:36:18 pm »
Washington Post's Wonkblog's opinion: They're Fucked. 


Sorry, Putin. Russia’s economy is doomed

A funny thing happened on the way to Vladimir Putin running strategic laps around the West. Russia's economy imploded.

The latest news is that Russia's central bank raised interest rates from 10.5 to 17 percent at an emergency 1 a.m. meeting in an attempt to stop the ruble, which is down 50 percent on the year against the dollar, from falling any further. It's a desperate move to save Russia's currency that comes at the cost of sacrificing Russia's economy. So even if it "works," things are about to get a lot worse.

It's a classic kind of emerging markets crisis. It's only a small simplification, you see, to say that Russia doesn't so much have an economy as it has an oil exporting business that subsidizes everything else. That's why the combination of more supply from the United States, and less demand from Europe, China, and Japan has hit them particularly hard. Cheaper oil means Russian companies have fewer dollars to turn into rubles, which is just another way of saying that there's less demand for rubles—so its price is falling. It hasn't helped, of course, that sanctions over Russia's incursion into Ukraine have already left Russia short on dollars.

Add it all up, and the ruble has fallen something like 22 percent against the dollar the past month, with 11 percent of that coming on Monday alone. As you can see below, the Russian ruble has fallen even further than the Ukrainian hryvnia or Brent oil has this year. The only asset, and I use that word lightly, that's done worse than the ruble's 50 percent fall is Bitcoin, which is a fake currency that techno-utopians insist is the future we don't know we want.




And this is only going to get worse. Russia, you see, is stuck in an economic catch-22. Its economy needs lower interest rates to push up growth, but its companies need higher interest rates to push up the ruble and make all the dollars they borrowed not worth so much. So, to use a technical term, they're screwed no matter what they do. If they had kept interest rates low, then the ruble would have continued to disintegrate, inflation would have spiked, and big corporations would have defaulted—but at least growth wouldn't have fallen quite so much.

Instead, Russia has opted for the financial shock-and-awe of raising rates from 10.5 to 17 percent in one fell swoop. Rates that high will send Russia's moribund economy into a deep recession—its central bank already estimates its economy will contract 4.5 to 4.7 percent if oil stays at $60-a-barrel—but they might, just might, be enough to stop the ruble's free fall. We'll see. If they're not, Russia will have to resort to capital controls to prop up the value of the ruble, and might even have to ask the IMF for a bailout.

Putin's Russia, like the USSR before it, is only as strong as the price of oil. In the 1970s, we made the mistake of thinking that the USSR's invasion of Afghanistan meant we were losing the Cold War, when the reality was that they had stumbled into their own Vietnam and could only afford to feed their people as long as oil stayed sky-high. The USSR's economic mirage, though, became apparent to everybody—none less than their own people, who had to scrounge in empty supermarkets—after oil prices bottomed out in the 1980s. That history is repeating itself now, just without the Marxism-Leninism. Putin could afford to invade Georgia and Ukraine when oil prices were comfortably in the triple digits, but not when they're half that. Russia can't afford anything then.

Putin might be playing chess while we play checkers, but only if we lend him the money for the set.

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2014, 01:50:37 pm »
And there was me thinking Putin had Europe by the economic short and curlies.  Instead it looks like he just lost the economic war.  Let's hope that he doesn't see the only solution as to double down on his military bet.
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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #78 on: December 16, 2014, 04:00:37 pm »
1 $ = 77 Ruble


how far the mad man will take Russia deep to the ground??
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Offline dalarr

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Re: Putin - Play Time Is Over (message to the western elites)
« Reply #79 on: December 16, 2014, 04:18:53 pm »
You guys are more knowledgeable than me. But I'm wondering, does it really matter? Russia has troughout history been ruled by an elite. The people have nearly always suffered while the Elite was well off. If Putin can keep the Elite and tycoons happy, Russia will remain aggressive. Nobody gives a shit about the Russian people..they abolished serfdom in the 1860s ffs
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 04:20:55 pm by dalarr »