Topic: The Klopp Template

[PhaseOfPlay]

Well you don't make much sense here because if it's klopps system then that's his coaching as well.  To fit in to the system you have to be coached in to your role within that system so you are contradicting yourself. It's not just talent.  Because there are loads of talented footballers out there however with quality coaching there ability can only take them so far.

No, I'm not.


To fit into the system, you have to have the right levels of technical, tactical, physical and mental ability that the system demands.

Joe Cole would collapse in Klopp's system.

[keyop]

I tried replying to your original point but couldn't word it right so I scrapped it. I'll try again... I agree with the thrust of what you were saying. Certain rivals (I know, who cares, but still...) have to do what they can to devalue our success for their own reasons. One angle of attack is to say we have simply bought success. Like you, I feel this is inaccurate regardless of the fees for VVD and Becker.

The likes of Abu Dhabi and Chelsea can buy levels of success they would never have had otherwise with money gifted to them which has not been raised via the game / football industry itself. This is very different to being a well run, self-sustaining club purchasing quality players with money they have earned via player sales, matchday revenue, commercial sponsorships and merchandise. Every club has to spend, but only a certain few can spend what they like, when they like, because their money does not actually come from football itself. That is buying success.

Clubs like Liverpool have a limited budget. A monstrously big budget by by the standards of the ordinary person on the street, but still limited by football standards. We have to use the money we spend wisely, and we have to have a manager and staff that can bring the very best out of the players we bring in. Klopp is a man who gets the extra mile out of players. He is a great manager and a fantastic people person. Like Shankly before him, Klopp makes everyone, including the tea lady, feel ten feet tall. The extra he gets out of people cannot be underestimated.

Yes, Liverpool have spent, but they haven't simply bought and bought with unlimited and unearned funds until they got it right. Liverpool spent what they earned, and spent it well. That's only half the battle though. The manager has to put together a cohesive team that knows exactly what he wants from them. He has to put it all together and make it work. There are clubs out there who have spent an awful lot more than us in recent years yet who are a shambles. United lash the cash and have declined. Everton have lashed the cash in order to tread water. Rivals genuinely suggesting Liverpool have simply bought success are being lazy and wilfully ignorant. Others suggest it simply to make themselves feel better because their own clubs are useless. To them, if they can devalue our success in their own minds, they feel a little better about having none of their own.

Yes that's exactly what I was trying to get across, but you've put it much better without tying yourself in knots like I did 

I find the view of spending changes depending on league position and trophies won. Utd are now considered wasteful and a shambles, yet we're accused by some as buying success even though we've spent far less, and sold far more. It's a bizarre logic but is borne out of rivals desparate to find something to blame, when in reality we've simply done everything well and have been steadily improving since Klopp joined.

[keyop]

But my point was they weren't inconsistent, whether you called them good or whatever wasn't what I was arguing. . Whether he's consistent or Soton or at Liverpool, doesn't matter, he was consistent.

Now if we're talking about different levels of quality needed to be successful at this club sure, however consistency wasn't an issue. If you don't have the talent you cant improve, no matter what kind of coach you have. The ability and talent has to be there for the coaching to make an impact, but it ultimately comes down on the ability and the player.

Yes, perhaps inconsistent was the wrong choice of word. Unpolished was the main point I tried to make, and also the fact that other managers have spent more only for those players to stagnate (or even go backwards), whereas Klopp has almost without exception made every player better - in some cases dramatically so.

[keyop]

Not sure why this is even up for debate.  You can have a one off season but on the whole without the money you're not winning anything.  Have Pep go manage Sunderland for instance, he may get some players to make a leap of faith but unless they start paying more he's not going to go far.  We focus so much on net spend but our wage bill has dramatically risen since Klopp arrived as well to where I think it's now top 6 in world football or thereabouts?   Without that type of commitment you're not going to be as successful as you otherwise could.

I think the reason it's up for debate and is so important is because the footballing landscape has changed so much since Chelsea, PSG and City bought success.

The player fees are reaching a point where I don't think they can go much higher before either FFP bites, or teams simply can't afford it and won't pay. That would mean that buying cheaper players and improving them becomes the difference maker instead of just money, which is what I think Klopp's template is all about.

[Bjornar]

Yes. Systems don't win you games, players do. Systems are just the organisation and principles of play that gives the team direction. Don't confuse the "system" with the "coach", though. Simeone subscribes to much the same principles as Hodgson, but obviously gets better return for his work. On top of that, we can't just talk "systems", we also have to talk "training", and some training methods are better than others. In fact, it would be more accurate to say that "Not all training methods are good and valid" rather than the same maxim for "systems of play"

Fair enough, I take that on board, and I suppose in some ways nothing is really new under the sun. But at the same time, the game surely is evolving tactically all the time (even if the basics are constant), and it's possible to either lag behind or be at the forefront of that. So what I'm getting at is that with us at the moment it's the latter, which is a great help for the players we are signing.

[ScouserAtHeart]

Bit refreshing that the debate has gone from "are we good" to "what's the reason for us being good"

[Dim Glas]

State of this thread title, it's like something you'd see on a Man Utd or Everton forum.

[him_15]

Don't really care what the other fans say about our spending and such, I am just enjoying the best of us.

[PhaseOfPlay]

State of this thread title, it's like something you'd see on a Man Utd or Everton forum.

Better?

[Asam]

Personally I think it is about a combination of things. You need a system that you can get players to buy in to. You need coaching that brings out the best in both the system and the players but above all you need quality players.

I think the clearest example of that is not Club football but International Football. An environment in which you can't solve your problems by dropping in a Becker or VVD. The most successful teams tend to be the most rounded teams. The ones without clear weaknesses. That for me shows it isn't about systems or coaching but the players you have at your disposal.

Erm that for me shows it's the system and not the players, you play the best players for the system, not the most talented individual who don't fit into a coherent plan, Greece winning the Euros is a perfect example of this

[Yosser0_0]

Klopp overtakes Bob Paisley's win ratio and moves to 57.67% after the win today, there is only Kenny Dalglish ahead of him now with 60.91%. A truly remarkable achievement in the modern game given the team that he inherited and in such a short period of time too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Liverpool_F.C._managers

[sms1986]

Klopp overtakes Bob Paisley's win ratio and moves to 57.67% after the win today, there is only Kenny Dalglish ahead of him now with 60.91%. A truly remarkable achievement in the modern game given the team that he inherited and in such a short period of time too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Liverpool_F.C._managers

That's brilliant, he really is a genius and I'm so glad he's our manager.

[afc tukrish]

No, I'm not.


To fit into the system, you have to have the right levels of technical, tactical, physical and mental ability that the system demands.

Joe Cole would collapse in Klopp's system.

Too many stogies, Cole pretty much collapses in any coach's system...

[Red Beret]

It's still far too early to call, but I'm not sure we've had successive title challenges since the 80s?

When you look back at our one off challenges, we usually followed up the following year by wasting money on sub standard players, and or losing quality players we already had.  This year we've not added significantly, but we didn't really lose anybody we didn't want to let go of either. 

Just shows how important maintaining squad consistency is.

[markedasred]

Klopp overtakes Bob Paisley's win ratio and moves to 57.67% after the win today, there is only Kenny Dalglish ahead of him now with 60.91%. A truly remarkable achievement in the modern game given the team that he inherited and in such a short period of time too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Liverpool_F.C._managers

Glad you enjoyed my post of two weeks earlier? He's on 58.15% now.

19
Liverpool FC Forum / Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« on: September 1, 2019, 03:45:36 PM »
As of the weekend, Jurgen has reached a 57.5% win rate as Liverpool manager. The only manager to have surpassed that at the club is Kenny, on 59.1%, combining the two reigns. Now let me be the first to admit that I am crap at maths, and the last person to disrespect our great leaders, but I suspect this is the year he becomes the greatest manager of Liverpool we have ever had, statistically. Of course it says nothing about his improvement rate, which is off the charts year on year.

[Mr_Shane]

I think he has broken the club record for number of consecutive league wins now . May that run long continue

[thisyearisouryear]

Just went through the last couple or so of pages. What an utterly pointless and stupid debate. Obviously both spending and coaching play an important role but trying to quantify which one is more important is well neigh impossible and an exercise in futility.
In our particular case - no way any manager would have achieved the same results and performances with this squad of players. Klopp's system and coaching elevates the team more than the sum of individuals. Also, no way Klopp would have achieved these results and performances without spending on the players like he had. End of.

Changing the topic a bit - what exactly is Klopp's strongest/preferred midfield currently, assuming everyone is fit and gelled in with enough match practice.
My pick would be Fabinho, Gini, and Keita. Bit I guess it would also depend upon the kind of opposition to a certain extent.

Thoughts?

[Bjornar]

What an utterly pointless and stupid debate.

Maybe a bit. But seems even more pointless to discuss yet again who should make up an ideal midfield three, and (as usual whenever that question is asked), whether it's time to bench Milner and Henderson. Not much point seeing as Klopp looks as commited as ever to rotation rather than a settled midfield, with Henderson and Milner very much part of that.

Seems to me that usually when this is brought up, it's not really about figuring out or talking about the Klopp Template, it's about what the poster wants to see and not what Klopp thinks.

[PaulF]

It's got a bit detailed but there has been some good stuff in here.

[thisyearisouryear]

Irrefutable proof that Klopp is on RAWK and is following this thread closely.
From an interview to Paul Gorst (https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/exclusive-jurgen-klopp-training-transfers-16944776)

In football, there are two ways to improve. One is to sign good players and the second is training, but having time together is always good. You don't have time together in football, usually, but we had it then, which was really good.

[sinnermichael]

Jurgen Klopp's 150th PL game as Liverpool manager this weekend. His win % of 61.1% is the highest of any Liverpool manager in history.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Jurgen Klopp's 150th PL game as Liverpool manager this weekend. His win % of 61.1% is the highest of any Liverpool manager in history.

Wikipedia only has his overall statistics. And he is 3rd over there with 57.6%. Only Dalglish and Barclay/McKenna are above him.

Can you share with us, the website of where you took his PL stats from?

[thisyearisouryear]

Wikipedia only has his overall statistics. And he is 3rd over there with 57.6%. Only Dalglish and Barclay/McKenna are above him.

Can you share with us, the website of where you took his PL stats from?

We can just go to the PL website to see Liverpool record in his time

2015/16 - 13/30 wins
2016/17 - 22/38 wins
2017/18 - 21/38 wins
2018/19 -  30/38 wins
2019/20 - 6/6 wins

Total 92/150 wins = 61.33% win%

[SteveZissou]

So, after looking at myself at the top of the table I'm feeling depressed again in the kitchen this morning. I've been a virgin for about 20 something years... I lost count. Then I met this blonde German model and we are breaking all sorts of records in the bedroom and after a long streak of incredible climaxes last season, she is in form for greater heights this season... but I keep thinking our relationship is due to expire in 3 years. I hope after all this, she will stay with me beyond that but the fact she told me from the start she is open to leave then, I keep thinking about where she could go and I feel so hurt thinking about it, as if all she is in for is to get her greencard or something. After a glorious victory last night with more amazing goals, I open up to her about this feeling and she says I'm crazy, she says I just need to enjoy the next 3 years with her, after all she chose to be with me and nobody else. Makes me feel so special, but then at the same time after last night, after those amazing highs, that is when I think about the future even more and I get even more depressed. Please help, aunt Agony.

[tubby]

Would like to see us a little better at breaking the press from opposition teams instead of playing it over the top of the left back in the hope that Salah can make something of it.  Maybe a change in midfield personnel would help, the back 5 are all comfortable on the ball.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

So, after looking at myself at the top of the table I'm feeling depressed again in the kitchen this morning. I've been a virgin for about 20 something years... I lost count. Then I met this blonde German model and we are breaking all sorts of records in the bedroom and after a long streak of incredible climaxes last season, she is in form for greater heights this season... but I keep thinking our relationship is due to expire in 3 years. I hope after all this, she will stay with me beyond that but the fact she told me from the start she is open to leave then, I keep thinking about where she could go and I feel so hurt thinking about it, as if all she is in for is to get her greencard or something. After a glorious victory last night with more amazing goals, I open up to her about this feeling and she says I'm crazy, she says I just need to enjoy the next 3 years with her, after all she chose to be with me and nobody else. Makes me feel so special, but then at the same time after last night, after those amazing highs, that is when I think about the future even more and I get even more depressed. Please help, aunt Agony.

Lay off the weed a little, dude 

[hesbighesred]

aunt Agony.

Aunt Agony would be a great name for a feminist metal band.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Our Pep saying that our side is much better/further at this point time of year than last year at the same time. Says that the back line is far more comfortable playing a higher line, and that we are able to dictate matches better already.

[Gutzon Borglum]

Switching to the High Line makes sense with VAR, we need it to maintain maximum compactness to generate the 'high block' with our pressing. We will get stung from time to time with a perfectly timed run and pass, but we need to be smart enough to blame the lack of pressure on the ball-carrier and not the defenders.

Ultimately it is worth the risk when it will help us force turnovers in dangerous areas. When Keita is fit (and Ox gets back his sharpness and rhythm), we will have that extra bit of technical ability and pace in midfield to ensure we extract maximum chance creation out of turnover opportunities.

Alisson returning to the team, and them gaining experience and familiarity with the higher line will only make us sharper and reduce instances like Trent had at the weekend where our defensive line loses vertical integrity.

We havent even got close to our best yet and we are already 5 points clear with a 100% league record, we will be imperious this season, I am extremely confident we will break the 100 point barrier, the psychological strength and game management nous of this team is on another planet.

Salah and Manč hitting their stride (they aren't at 100% yet, they will improve), and Keita and Ox getting themselves match-fit and in form is literally all that is necessary for this team to make that next step in our development. At that point, I find it incredibly difficult to imagine how City will be able to live with us at Anfield without Laporte. They will either need to completely alter their system or the pressing sledgehammer that hit them at Anfield in early 2018 will return with a vengeance and I see us blowing them away.

If we can stay unbeaten in the league until that match, and we can beat them at Anfield, then we will know we are witnessing something even more special this season than we did the last.

[No666]

Ultimately it is worth the risk when it will help us force turnovers in dangerous areas. When Keita is fit (and Ox gets back his sharpness and rhythm), we will have that extra bit of technical ability and pace in midfield to ensure we extract maximum chance creation out of turnover opportunities.

Pep also saying that Keita is vital to the unpredictability of our build-up play and attack.

[lionel_messias]

Switching to the High Line makes sense with VAR, we need it to maintain maximum compactness to generate the 'high block' with our pressing. We will get stung from time to time with a perfectly timed run and pass, but we need to be smart enough to blame the lack of pressure on the ball-carrier and not the defenders.

Ultimately it is worth the risk when it will help us force turnovers in dangerous areas. When Keita is fit (and Ox gets back his sharpness and rhythm), we will have that extra bit of technical ability and pace in midfield to ensure we extract maximum chance creation out of turnover opportunities.

Alisson returning to the team, and them gaining experience and familiarity with the higher line will only make us sharper and reduce instances like Trent had at the weekend where our defensive line loses vertical integrity.

We havent even got close to our best yet and we are already 5 points clear with a 100% league record, we will be imperious this season, I am extremely confident we will break the 100 point barrier, the psychological strength and game management nous of this team is on another planet.

Salah and Manč hitting their stride (they aren't at 100% yet, they will improve), and Keita and Ox getting themselves match-fit and in form is literally all that is necessary for this team to make that next step in our development. At that point, I find it incredibly difficult to imagine how City will be able to live with us at Anfield without Laporte. They will either need to completely alter their system or the pressing sledgehammer that hit them at Anfield in early 2018 will return with a vengeance and I see us blowing them away.

If we can stay unbeaten in the league until that match, and we can beat them at Anfield, then we will know we are witnessing something even more special this season than we did the last.

This would have to be my favourite post for some time on here. I love your Kloptimism.

I do also think we are in rude health, and the extra elements added by a fit Naby Keita and a returning to sharpness Oxlade could well take us over the top. Personally, I think 90 points wins the league this term and we should (and perhaps will) need to add at least a spare left-back in the Winter window to remain at our level. I am hugely optimistic but I also feel strain injuries are coming for Mane and Salah, and they will need resting at some point, proper resting.

[hesbighesred]

Our Pep saying that our side is much better/further at this point time of year than last year at the same time. Says that the back line is far more comfortable playing a higher line, and that we are able to dictate matches better already.

Yup. As it stands we've traded a few goals for even more pressure on the opposition goal. Thus far, our countering's been relatively poor and while Adrian's been all we could have hoped for there's a bigger gap behind that high line than there would be if Alisson were playing.

There's definitely another level we can consistently hit without needing to play out of our skins, rather things we already know we can do that just haven't quite come off yet for whatever reason. And they will come back. And we're already an absolutely fucking terrifying team to play against, the best Liverpool team I've ever seen, for sure.

[hesbighesred]

Personally, I think 90 points wins the league this term...

I'd take that bet. Id be prepared to bet that 90 won't even get you 2nd.

[Gerry Attrick]

I'd take that bet. Id be prepared to bet that 90 won't even get you 2nd.

Eh? What teams apart from Liverpool and Man City do you see achieving 90 points? I don't see any other team capable of even doing 82-85.

[Mozology]

If someone from the future told me 90 points wins the title this season I'd be opening up a bottle of Champagne already.

It's gonna be 95 or more.

[Knight]

Eh? What teams apart from Liverpool and Man City do you see achieving 90 points? I don't see any other team capable of even doing 82-85.

The other teams have dropped so many points that 90 is already looking very implausible.

[killer-heels]

Yeah sorry HBHR but 90 points for anyone other than us or City is not going to happen.

[hesbighesred]

Eh? What teams apart from Liverpool and Man City do you see achieving 90 points? I don't see any other team capable of even doing 82-85.

I think City and Liverpool will both get more than 90. That would mean that 90 would get 3rd.

That doesn't mean that I think any other team *will* get 90. State of play so far even 80 is looking very tough for anyone bar ourselves and City.

Edit: I just realised why my first post was so confusing, sorry. I don't think another team will get 90, but if they did it wouldn't be good enough for 2nd, because I think both ourselves and City will be around the 95 mark again.

Of course if *one of* us or city got 90 then that almost certainly would be good enough for 2nd place because no other team is likely to get near that.

I hope that's (sort of) clear now! Hehe.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

If someone from the future told me 90 points wins the title this season I'd be opening up a bottle of Champagne already.

It's gonna be 95 or more.

Yeah think some are getting carried away with City's early dropped points. They were pretty freakish results - most City dropped points are, I guess, given their dominance in games, but that Spurs game was particularly ridiculous - and I can't see them dropping another point until they play us.

I'd be stunned if they don't hit early 90's.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

The only way I see City getting under 95 is if they continue to rack up injuries in key positions or Guardiola self-combusts from hypocrisy and over thinking things.