Topic: CL: Spartak 1 v Liverpool 1 (Fernando 23', Coutinho 30')

[killer-heels]

And that's the key with having natural finishers, if they get a chance in a tight game they'll be more likely to take it.

We'll have games like Arsenal where the three of them score in a clinical win, but also games where they all miss sitters and we don't win.

We need Firmino, Salah and Mane to score 20 each because where else are the goals coming from? Chamberlain 's goal record is lamentable. Henderson scored once last season. Aside from Milner's penalties the defence scored 3 goals between them.

We scored loads of goals last season and if it wasnt for us going very conservative in the end and a few Spurs scorelines that skewed the figures, we would have been top scorers. So why do you now think we wont score enough?

[Fromola]

We scored loads of goals last season and if it wasnt for us going very conservative in the end and a few Spurs scorelines that skewed the figures, we would have been top scorers. So why do you now think we wont score enough?

I think we'll concede more for a start.

In the league alone I think we need 80+ goals if we're looking at top 4 (we got 78 last season) most of the top 6 have bigger goal threats this season and scoring more.

Mane, Firmino and Coutinho got 37 between them last season, if you add Salah to that and make it 50 then that's around 13 each with Coutinho and Mane top scored on. We'd still need at least another 30 from elsewhere.

[killer-heels]

I think we'll concede more for a start.

In the league alone I think we need 80+ goals if we're looking at top 4 (we got 78 last season) most of the top 6 have bigger goal threats this season and scoring more.

Mane, Firmino and Coutinho got 37 between them last season, if you add Salah to that and make it 50 then that's around 13 each with Coutinho and Mane top scored on. We'd still need at least another 30 from elsewhere.

Mane, Firmino and Coutinho need to be scoring more than 37 between them (their figures were hampered by injuries) and if Salah only ends up scoring 13 then its a bit disappointing.

They should be 55-60 goals between them. We then have Lallana, Solanke, Sturridge, Can, Wijnaldum who should be able to get 20 amongst them.

But anyway we scored 78 last season and have added Salah. So why can we now not score 80+ goals? Are you saying our players will score less this season?

[RK7]

The amount of goals scored is an obvious plus but it's still 3 points for a 1-0 and the same for a 10-0.

There are games in which a natural goal getter would make the difference.

Klopp is an exciting manager with a great vision but sometimes it's not needed, sometimes you just need to beat a side 1-0.

[redmark]

I think we'll concede more for a start.

In the league alone I think we need 80+ goals if we're looking at top 4 (we got 78 last season) most of the top 6 have bigger goal threats this season and scoring more.

Mane, Firmino and Coutinho got 37 between them last season, if you add Salah to that and make it 50 then that's around 13 each with Coutinho and Mane top scored on. We'd still need at least another 30 from elsewhere.

I'm very happy to bet that those four get more than 50 league goals between them this season.

But where did the other 41 come from last season? Other players, who you've discounted as being able to provide enough goals this season. So Milner got 7 penalties; but you can't remove those without adding at least, say, 5 to Firmino. We should probably allow fewer than 13 for Coutinho - who spent a lot of time in the front three - but then his goals scored when he dropped into midfield late on actually improved. We should allow more for Mane, who missed a chunk of the season. Lallana, Wijnaldum and Can (mostly combining as a pair of 8's) contributed 19 goals between them. Our backup forward options (Origi and Sturridge) 10.

Let's look at this another way - our best goalscorers are likely to provide a profile something like 17, 15, 13, 11, 8, 7, 5 (that's 76, I think it'll be a bit higher, with probably another 10-15 from 'everybody else').

What do Spurs' or United's profiles look like, after their 30-goal strikers? What happens if their 30 goal striker breaks a leg this weekend?

[Groundskeeper Willie]

I'd rather have scoring spread out, than rely on one player to score for you. Means we are less suscetiptible to suffer if one gets injured, while Lukaku, Kane etc could be devastating losses.

[Anfield89]

I'd rather have scoring spread out, than rely on one player to score for you. Means we are less suscetiptible to suffer if one gets injured, while Lukaku, Kane etc could be devastating losses.

Spurs coped fine without Kane and the mancs have cover. They might go back to drawing a few more again

[Adam_LFC]

I'd rather have scoring spread out, than rely on one player to score for you. Means we are less suscetiptible to suffer if one gets injured, while Lukaku, Kane etc could be devastating losses.

I'd rather have that while also having a reliable prolific front man.

[El Lobo]

I'd rather have that while also having a reliable prolific front man.

 

Not being funny, but I find the idea that we'd just automatically score more goals if we had a 'goalscoring striker' instead of Firmino pretty funny. It doesn't work like that. We don't play like that. Firmino isn't a typical number 9, but just not scoring enough goals. You either change the system to incorporate that striker, or you stick a typical number 9 into Firminos position. We might do better, we might not. But its a simple like for like change.

[Timbo's Goals]

Fuck me this thread takes me back 50 years English Lit learning about Gullivers Travels and the fucking Tramecksans and Slamecksans.

Bottom line is in the past few games our decision making, our final ball, our ability to be calm and clinical in front of goal and our shooting and heading precision against - in the case of Spartak - a fucking shite side was absolutely abysmal and cannot be defended in any way, shape or form.

That said, there's no way the players of the wonderful attacking quality we have in our ranks but who were individually and collectively culpable for the recent woeful ineptitude are going to continue such pathetic form in and around the opposition goal and this will all be rectified to devastating effect at the home of the 'never done it but strut about as if they have and about to again deluded Geordie nation' on Sunday afternoon.

 

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Spurs coped fine without Kane and the mancs have cover. They might go back to drawing a few more again

They scored 8 goals in 8 league and CL games during his abscence last autumn.

Second stint he was out the played Burnley, Swansea, Southampton.

[Anfield89]

They scored 8 goals in 8 league and CL games during his abscence last autumn.

What were their results?

[Groundskeeper Willie]

What were their results?

3W 4D 1L

Hardly spectacular for a top 4 side.

[Chris~]

The amount of goals scored is an obvious plus but it's still 3 points for a 1-0 and the same for a 10-0.

There are games in which a natural goal getter would make the difference.

Klopp is an exciting manager with a great vision but sometimes it's not needed, sometimes you just need to beat a side 1-0.

So like mane vs palace?

Spurs probably could have done without kane missing all those chances at the start of every season but small sample sizes are weird  Over a long period I'm pretty confident we'll score and win enough games with our attacking options.

[Anfield89]

3W 4D 1L

Hardly spectacular for a top 4 side.

It's not bad depends on the games I suppose. We would of all taken that when Mane was missing.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

It's not bad depends on the games I suppose. We would of all taken that when Mane was missing.

They drew Bournemouth, WBA and Leicester.

[El Lobo]

It's not bad depends on the games I suppose. We would of all taken that when Mane was missing.

What were the stats when Mane was missing?

[Anfield89]

They drew Bournemouth, WBA and Leicester.

All those league games?

[Groundskeeper Willie]

What were the stats when Mane was missing?

5W 2D 1L in the spring when he was injured.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

All those league games?

Yes. Won v City in the league, other wins were in CL and loss was in CL.

[redk84]

I'd like for us to be less copycat in our defence/offence in general !

we don't tend to make one defensive mistake its usually a clusterfuck
similarly its not just one player having "one of those days" in front of goal its all of them!

personnel, personality or mentality issue just needs sorting

[Anfield89]

What were the stats when Mane was missing?

We didn't win.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

We didn't win.

5 wins in 8 games when he had his season ending injury.

When he was at the ACN our record wasn't great but that was mainly down to other things IMO.

[Anfield89]

5 wins in 8 games when he had his season ending injury.

When he was at the ACN our record wasn't great but that was mainly down to other things IMO.

Yeh I was thinking of January, Feb was as bad too though.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Yeh I was thinking of January, Feb was as bad too though.

January was 5 cup games so that wasn't necessarily down to Mané missing. Team selection, the well debated fatigue through fixture congestion issue etc.

February was only 3 games (1W 2L) but we were talking records when missing the top scorers and he wasn't missing then.

[Anfield89]

January was 5 cup games so that wasn't necessarily down to Mané missing. Team selection, the well debated fatigue through fixture congestion issue etc.

February was only 3 games (1W 2L) but we were talking records when missing the top scorers and he wasn't missing then.

Was Kane injured again last season? seem to remember Son setting up with a few goals.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Was Kane injured again last season? seem to remember Son setting up with a few goals.

Missed games both autumn and spring. Mainly spring when he was out 49 days. I posted their league and CL record above. 8 in 8.

He missed a total of 75 days and 16 games with a malleolar injury. Whatever that is.

[RK7]

I'd rather have that while also having a reliable prolific front man.

Exactly, too many here think it's one or the other.

[Coolie High]

I'm very happy to bet that those four get more than 50 league goals between them this season.

But where did the other 41 come from last season? Other players, who you've discounted as being able to provide enough goals this season. So Milner got 7 penalties; but you can't remove those without adding at least, say, 5 to Firmino. We should probably allow fewer than 13 for Coutinho - who spent a lot of time in the front three - but then his goals scored when he dropped into midfield late on actually improved. We should allow more for Mane, who missed a chunk of the season. Lallana, Wijnaldum and Can (mostly combining as a pair of 8's) contributed 19 goals between them. Our backup forward options (Origi and Sturridge) 10.

Let's look at this another way - our best goalscorers are likely to provide a profile something like 17, 15, 13, 11, 8, 7, 5 (that's 76, I think it'll be a bit higher, with probably another 10-15 from 'everybody else').

What do Spurs' or United's profiles look like, after their 30-goal strikers? What happens if their 30 goal striker breaks a leg this weekend?

Honestly think both Mane and Salah could get 18-20 goals in the league this season.

[Mighty_Red]

Really disappointing result and we can't blame anyone but ourselves. This has really been a shit month, so maybe it is good that the Newcastle game is the start of October!

Yet again, we conceded an avoidable goal against the run of play - Can was guilty of making some bad decisions that put us under pressure which led to the free kick and of course Karius should've done better with his positioning. It was the kind of goal that we would simply put down to "it happens" but obviously our perception is coloured by the fact we seem to always find new ways to concede goals.

Of course, it wasn't the defence that let us down, it was purely our finishing - too many shots off target or way too close to the keeper. In a tight game where the opposition are parking the bus it will always be hard to create a lot of chances. We did actually create enough but we didn't take advantage.

For me, Firmino was the most guilty with a couple of misses plus the opportunity to put us in near the end. He didn't really get into the game (middle was probably too congested) and I think he should've come off instead of Mane as Mane was still a threat. He has been off the boil basically since the pen miss 2 weeks ago but I'm sure he will be back to himself soon. The others also missed good chances so it has to be a collective blame.

We are lucky that, so far, our poor form hasn't really hurt us in a big way so hopefully we can come out of this and string together some wins.

[Fromola]

What do Spurs' or United's profiles look like, after their 30-goal strikers? What happens if their 30 goal striker breaks a leg this weekend?

In the league last season for Spurs it was Kane 29, Alli 18 and Son 14 (all over 20 in all competitions). Son alone scored more in the league than any Liverpool player and Kane was injured for a spell.

United have Lukaku who'll score a hatful but Martial and Rashford will both score a fair amount and Zlatan to come in as well.

[redmark]

Honestly think both Mane and Salah could get 18-20 goals in the league this season.

I agree, that profile was just to show that even fairly conservative individual goal tallies for our front four will put them comfortably into the 50-60 range between them, barring significant absences. On last season, 'everybody else' managed 41 goals. Even allowing for some of those opportunities being taken by Salah, I'd expect 80 as a minimum team target, and we could be pushing 100.

Yet a couple of faltering performances in front of goal has people claiming we need a goalscorer...

[redmark]

In the league last season for Spurs it was Kane 29, Alli 18 and Son 14 (all over 20 in all competitions). Son alone scored more in the league than any Liverpool player and Kane was injured for a spell.

United have Lukaku who'll score a hatful but Martial and Rashford will both score a fair amount and Zlatan to come in as well.

But this argument is based on optimistic viewing of Spurs/United (they won't get injuries, players who didn't score much last season are assumed to do well this, Lukaku/Zlatan will somehow both score while being alternatives for the same role); and a pessimistic view of ours (not allowing that Salah brings more goals, or that other contributors won't contribute this season).

This is more what I was talking about:

Liverpool - 13, 13, 11, 8, 7, 7, 6, 5, 3, 2, 1, 1.
Spurs - 29, 18, 14, 8, 4, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1.
United - 17, 6, 6, 5, 5, 4, 4, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1.

Obviously United will improve theirs this season, but that doesn't mean current trends will continue throughout the season. There's no reason to expect that Martial and Rashford are going to be 20 goal scorers. Lukaku will likely exceed Zlatan's 17 (possibly before Christmas), but it's not 25-30 for Lukaka and 17 for Zlatan. Spurs haven't added any attacking options and their 16/17 output from that front three is about as good as they can expect. A serious injury to Kane would be significant.

But by the same token, we've added Salah, and hope to have Mane available for a full season. On last year's experience, players like Wijnaldum and Lallana contribute more than the midfield options Spurs and United have. So Spurs' profile doesn't seem likely to improve any; United's will, though by how much remains to be seen. Ours should improve a touch. But of all of those, ours is the least impacted by one or two specific significant injuries.

[Fitzy.]

Yet a couple of faltering performances in front of goal has people claiming we need a goalscorer...

I have some sympathy with the sentiment but it represents a growing irritation I have with 'online analysis' which I am exposing myself to.

Essentially, the online commentariat is excruciatingly fickle but simultaneously all-seeing and wise. In fact the wisdom has no limits - all the solutions are there, clear as day. Managing a team? Easy. The answers are ALL 'easy' apparently.

Easy until you actually consider how the criticisms come about. I haven't done the stats on this but the 'answers' people have for an apparent squad flaw usually appear in the immediate aftermath of a poor result. They are kneejerk and reactionary. For example, all of a sudden we need a clinical striker. That's the conventional wisdom following Tuesday's disappointment. However, if you scour this forum for fans calling for more forwards over the summer you'd find slim pickings. In fact, it was rarely spoken about. That's because the forward players were all regarded as being goal threats. But following Tuesday a series of angry posters have helpfully highlighted this really 'obvious' failing. Forget the excitement following Hoffenheim and Arsenal; forget the high goal count during last season; forget the sheer talent the squad has in the forward positions...forget all that.

The hindsight police have identified a kneejerk problem that anyone can see...apart from even them as little three weeks ago. That's because these football geniuses only vent following a poor outcome. They neither consider the nature of a given performance nor even hold opinions for more than a week or two.

Yes, the online commentariat is a very wise community. They see all - but only express wisdom after the team has disappointed.

[El Lobo]

I have some sympathy with the sentiment but it represents a growing irritation I have with 'online analysis' which I am exposing myself to.

Essentially, the online commentariat is excruciatingly fickle but simultaneously all-seeing and wise. In fact the wisdom has no limits - all the solutions are there, clear as day. Managing a team? Easy. The answers are ALL 'easy' apparently.

Easy until you actually consider how the criticisms come about. I haven't done the stats on this but the 'answers' people have for an apparent squad flaw usually appear in the immediate aftermath of a poor result. They are kneejerk and reactionary. For example, all of a sudden we need a clinical striker. That's the conventional wisdom following Tuesday's disappointment. However, if you scour this forum for fans calling for more forwards over the summer you'd find slim pickings. In fact, it was rarely spoken about. That's because the forward players were all regarded as being goal threats. But following Tuesday a series of angry posters have helpfully highlighted this really 'obvious' failing. Forget the excitement following Hoffenheim and Arsenal; forget the high goal count during last season; forget the sheer talent the squad has in the forward positions...forget all that.

The hindsight police have identified a kneejerk problem that anyone can see...apart from even them as little three weeks ago. That's because these football geniuses only vent following a poor outcome. They neither consider the nature of a given performance nor even hold opinions for more than a week or two.

Yes, the online commentariat is a very wise community. They see all - but only express wisdom after the team has disappointed.

Very well put 

[Groundskeeper Willie]

I have some sympathy with the sentiment but it represents a growing irritation I have with 'online analysis' which I am exposing myself to.

Essentially, the online commentariat is excruciatingly fickle but simultaneously all-seeing and wise. In fact the wisdom has no limits - all the solutions are there, clear as day. Managing a team? Easy. The answers are ALL 'easy' apparently.

Easy until you actually consider how the criticisms come about. I haven't done the stats on this but the 'answers' people have for an apparent squad flaw usually appear in the immediate aftermath of a poor result. They are kneejerk and reactionary. For example, all of a sudden we need a clinical striker. That's the conventional wisdom following Tuesday's disappointment. However, if you scour this forum for fans calling for more forwards over the summer you'd find slim pickings. In fact, it was rarely spoken about. That's because the forward players were all regarded as being goal threats. But following Tuesday a series of angry posters have helpfully highlighted this really 'obvious' failing. Forget the excitement following Hoffenheim and Arsenal; forget the high goal count during last season; forget the sheer talent the squad has in the forward positions...forget all that.

The hindsight police have identified a kneejerk problem that anyone can see...apart from even them as little three weeks ago. That's because these football geniuses only vent following a poor outcome. They neither consider the nature of a given performance nor even hold opinions for more than a week or two.

Yes, the online commentariat is a very wise community. They see all - but only express wisdom after the team has disappointed.

Excellent. I smiled and nodded in agreement all the way through.

[iamnant]

I have some sympathy with the sentiment but it represents a growing irritation I have with 'online analysis' which I am exposing myself to.

Essentially, the online commentariat is excruciatingly fickle but simultaneously all-seeing and wise. In fact the wisdom has no limits - all the solutions are there, clear as day. Managing a team? Easy. The answers are ALL 'easy' apparently.

Easy until you actually consider how the criticisms come about. I haven't done the stats on this but the 'answers' people have for an apparent squad flaw usually appear in the immediate aftermath of a poor result. They are kneejerk and reactionary. For example, all of a sudden we need a clinical striker. That's the conventional wisdom following Tuesday's disappointment. However, if you scour this forum for fans calling for more forwards over the summer you'd find slim pickings. In fact, it was rarely spoken about. That's because the forward players were all regarded as being goal threats. But following Tuesday a series of angry posters have helpfully highlighted this really 'obvious' failing. Forget the excitement following Hoffenheim and Arsenal; forget the high goal count during last season; forget the sheer talent the squad has in the forward positions...forget all that.

The hindsight police have identified a kneejerk problem that anyone can see...apart from even them as little three weeks ago. That's because these football geniuses only vent following a poor outcome. They neither consider the nature of a given performance nor even hold opinions for more than a week or two.

Yes, the online commentariat is a very wise community. They see all - but only express wisdom after the team has disappointed.

Nail. On. Head.

[Sinyoro]

I have some sympathy with the sentiment but it represents a growing irritation I have with 'online analysis' which I am exposing myself to.

Essentially, the online commentariat is excruciatingly fickle but simultaneously all-seeing and wise. In fact the wisdom has no limits - all the solutions are there, clear as day. Managing a team? Easy. The answers are ALL 'easy' apparently.

Easy until you actually consider how the criticisms come about. I haven't done the stats on this but the 'answers' people have for an apparent squad flaw usually appear in the immediate aftermath of a poor result. They are kneejerk and reactionary. For example, all of a sudden we need a clinical striker. That's the conventional wisdom following Tuesday's disappointment. However, if you scour this forum for fans calling for more forwards over the summer you'd find slim pickings. In fact, it was rarely spoken about. That's because the forward players were all regarded as being goal threats. But following Tuesday a series of angry posters have helpfully highlighted this really 'obvious' failing. Forget the excitement following Hoffenheim and Arsenal; forget the high goal count during last season; forget the sheer talent the squad has in the forward positions...forget all that.

The hindsight police have identified a kneejerk problem that anyone can see...apart from even them as little three weeks ago. That's because these football geniuses only vent following a poor outcome. They neither consider the nature of a given performance nor even hold opinions for more than a week or two.

Yes, the online commentariat is a very wise community. They see all - but only express wisdom after the team has disappointed.

 

Brilliant.

Tony Cascarino offered a passionate defence of Liverpool yesterday that will put a few of our supporters to shame.
In short, he bemoaned the over-the-top over-reactions that seem to always follow Liverpool.

[na fir dearg]

I have some sympathy with the sentiment but it represents a growing irritation I have with 'online analysis' which I am exposing myself to.

Essentially, the online commentariat is excruciatingly fickle but simultaneously all-seeing and wise. In fact the wisdom has no limits - all the solutions are there, clear as day. Managing a team? Easy. The answers are ALL 'easy' apparently.

Easy until you actually consider how the criticisms come about. I haven't done the stats on this but the 'answers' people have for an apparent squad flaw usually appear in the immediate aftermath of a poor result. They are kneejerk and reactionary. For example, all of a sudden we need a clinical striker. That's the conventional wisdom following Tuesday's disappointment. However, if you scour this forum for fans calling for more forwards over the summer you'd find slim pickings. In fact, it was rarely spoken about. That's because the forward players were all regarded as being goal threats. But following Tuesday a series of angry posters have helpfully highlighted this really 'obvious' failing. Forget the excitement following Hoffenheim and Arsenal; forget the high goal count during last season; forget the sheer talent the squad has in the forward positions...forget all that.

The hindsight police have identified a kneejerk problem that anyone can see...apart from even them as little three weeks ago. That's because these football geniuses only vent following a poor outcome. They neither consider the nature of a given performance nor even hold opinions for more than a week or two.

Yes, the online commentariat is a very wise community. They see all - but only express wisdom after the team has disappointed.

in a fucking nutshell

[BabuYagu]

I'd rather have scoring spread out, than rely on one player to score for you. Means we are less suscetiptible to suffer if one gets injured, while Lukaku, Kane etc could be devastating losses.

Exactly.

The "who was top scorer" lists for sides who wins the league just show you which teams striker stayed fit and in form most of the season. It doesn't show you the seasons that striker is injured most of the season, because they then have a 30 goal hole in their team.

Zlatan at United last season gets injured, Rashford takes over the final 13 games and gets 0 goals from open play. They must be happy that injury didn't come in February!