Author Topic: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers  (Read 23078 times)

Offline Hinesy

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Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« on: September 24, 2011, 07:30:17 pm »
Honestly? I've been working all day so not a clue about this one. That said, by some accounts we could've had a hatful, but once again we look nervous at the back and I imagine the jitters would've arrived at the start of the 2nd half when they scored.

So, what's new pussycat?





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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2011, 11:34:34 pm »
Maybe I am unique in this then but I actually thought we were very very lucky to win today. We did create some chances and we possibly should have scored a few more given we hit the woodwork more than once. Carroll in particular deserved a goal for his work and was unlucky with his header hitting the post.

All that said, I thought how we defended was woeful. We shouldn't be losing out in chances and possession at home. We had almost double the fouls against us as Wolves. Also, I'm starting to worry more and more about our midfield. Not in terms of personnel as I honestly think whoever you put in there would struggle. Our defence is sitting too deep and as a result the gap between defence and attack is too much for our midfield to fill. I think even a partnership of Essien and Lucas would struggle despite their massive energy and workload.

This was bugging me all first half despite being 2-1 up. When the goal went in I had a look at the averages positions of our team and found this:-



Now, you can see all our central players are fairly central. However Carragher is as far out to the right hand side as Henderson. Kelly is also ahead of Enrique and our 2 cental midfielders. Was he told to push up and Carragher was shifting across to cover? Not sure, but it does look strange. The thing I don't understand and cannot offer an explanation for is how deep he is. It got worse too..... around the 65th minute mark Carragher's average position for the game was inside his own 18 yard box. Once Gerrard and Kuyt came on, things improved and so we started keeping the ball better and the average position moved up a little again.... but even still, you will not find any team in any top league whose center backs sit that deep. You just cannot do it. Every time we loose the ball, the space in our midfield is killing is. I honestly think this is why Adam is attracting a lot of criticism too. If Lucas is struggling to cope with it, then Adam is fucked as he doesn't have the physical ability that Lucas does.

I hate bandwagon's, witch hunts and people who forget in a second all the good a player does and then jump all over them when they make a mistake. Carragher has attracted a lot of criticism this season because of his hoofing and mistakes. In honesty, he wasn't hoofing today and Carroll thrived in it. In fact Carroll played the way Dzeko does for City and it really suited him. He wasn't making mistakes today also, no contentious penalty decisions, no hauling people over in the box. He had a good game. The fact remains though, he is naturally suited to a backs against the wall type situation. He was in his element on his comeback against Chelsea (Torres debut) when he was camped in his box, blocking shots. Heroic defending. He was my man of the match that day too alongside Lucas. However I worry in games like Wolves at home, we should be pinning them in their own half and suffocating the life out of them. That doesn't suit Carragher's game at all. Maybe he managed it when Rafa was here and he still had a little pace left... but I think now he doesn't think he can play that way and drops deep. As our defensive leader it means the whole line needs to drop deep. Suddenly Lucas looks around and his defence is 30 yards away.... and it's his job to fill that space.

Lucas ran himself to death today. I would love to see his distance run stats as I would imagine it was close to 16km. I am terrified what would happen if he got injured as we have nobody else who can put in that shift and live. I'm not saying we should drop Carragher because he is vital to our squad. However in games like today's where we are looking to control the opponents, we should phase him out. However against Everton and Manchester United I'd have him in there in a heartbeat as at some point we'll be needing that backs to the well stuff once again. Norwich City at home though, they are the exact sort of team where I would rest him for it. Hopefully Agger is back for that one, if not I would try out Coates.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 05:42:58 pm by BabuYagu »
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Offline Aristotle

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2011, 01:26:37 am »
For me personally the positives going forward were for all to see but the defensive frailties was also alarmingly visible. On another day we could've scored 5 goals, easily. But we could also have conceded 3 as well. Fletcher's goal was our defense in a nutshell. No one seems sure what he's supposed to do and when Fletcher dropped back the line stood still holding an imaginary offside trap it seemed. We were also quite lucky at times, that time in the 2nd half at around 65 minutes where we had 8 players in our own box for over a minute and couldn't get the ball further than 10 yards away. It was shocking and lacked any organisation or general gameplan. When the ball finally went out of the box no one went forward to try and keep it and almost if they were scared to go forward in case no one stayed behind. IT was really bizarre to say the least.


We left a lot to be desired out there today and like I said we could've conceded a lot more than 1 goal. One of O'Hara's or Hunt's free kicks on the edge of the box could've gone in. Adam was a hazard and a half in the opening. He fouled a Wolves player in the first minute, his back header to Doyle that forced a foul from Lucas and another lackluster free kick was the ony thing that let him off the hook there. There was also one moment where he was strolling forward when Wolves had the ball and he left Doyle with acres of space behind him and he didn't even make a run for it. Again, and I think I mentioned it last week as well, in that regard he plays like an NFL quarterback. He's brilliant, capable of doing magical things, making Hail Mary passes and winning the game on his own but if his pass is interrupted he stands around like an awkward teenager praying that the rest of the team recover the ball and hand it to him. He also has a tendancy for tunnel vision. It can work in his favour sure, but look at his goal if he hadn't hit the head of Johnson it would've been an abysmal decision considering Suarez and Carroll at the far post. And that mentality was evident a few minutes earlier when he shot with his right instead of passing it to Henderson who had enough space to land a cargo jet.

And even if that wasn't the case, he is exceptionally slow and for all of his premiership proven material he gets caught in possession more often than most of the league's foreign imports. And there is such an incredible amount of space that can be exploited when we field both him and Carra. Neither has the pace, stamina or mobility to cover the ground so when we lose possession Carra is too deep and Adam too slow to cover the ground. Lucas was a real trooper today. He played like he was possessed, making tackles and covering for the back 4, despite playing on a yellow card. And on that subject. Fitness in general seems to be a big concern. Suarez is playing a whole lot, after a very limited amount of rest. Same goes for Lucas. He was doing the work of two in midfield, and occupying the space the defense should have been doing and regardless of how fit he is, he's only human and doing that week in week out will leave him burnt out by March. And I have my doubts that Spearing can provide that cover, and despite his massive potential Henderson isn't ready to play a vital part in our team yet.
And one vital difference to our team today though, did you see massive difference in Carroll's game when we actually gave him the ball and didn't treat him like a paler version of Heskey.


Good news is upcoming are 2 matches which Carragher should shine the brightest. Back to the wall, high intensity where taking one for the team and throwing everything you have on the line is what wins you the game. Bad news is that he's played 5, 90 minute games in the past 4 weeks and his fitness level is highly questionable. And like I've mentioned again and again. If we play rival games 38 times a season I wouldn't take anyone in the world over him. But a team hoping to challenge for the title can not afford to have a key member of the team who is all but useless in 20-25 games a season.

So in a nutshell, delighted we manage to grind through it for a win. There have been far too many to remember times where we've drawn or even lost when we played so inefficiently and a better team would've taken us to the cleaners in that 2nd half. So as far as taking it one game at a time, mission accomplished. But in the long term, there's a lot of issues to be worked out in the training ground.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 01:36:08 am by Aristotle »
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Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2011, 07:53:40 am »
Good going forward, unlucky not to have scored more. Very frail defensively, very lucky not to have received more cards and conceded more. Lucas, Carroll, Suarez and Enrique all played very well.
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2011, 09:27:20 am »
I've only seen the highlights so can't comment on the game, but I'm interested to find out more from those of you who did: the defensive problems are bemusing to me, because last year it seemed as if Clarke arrived on a white charger and sorted us out. What's happened since that would explain the sudden fragility? A few months on the clock for Carragher doesn't explain it really. Unless he's been listening to those old audio tapes Roy left him as he drifts into sleep?  ;)

Offline BazC

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2011, 04:35:06 pm »
It was a great result of course, but in terms of the performance, it was mixed- some great positives and massively worrying negatives.

The biggest positives were Carroll's performance, Suarez goal and Stevie coming back into the team.

In terms of negatives; the way this midfield and defense is set up is very poor. This was a Wolves team that just about avoided relegation last season and they caused us way too much trouble. There's no cohesive football coming from that central area when it comes to defending. I think Adam's had a few games now where he's been very poor at that side of the game- he moves like an ocean liner and gets caught far too often when defending. And when that results in fouls, which it inevitably does, they're more often than not in dangerous areas of the pitch. The other issue in that area is the CB situation. I can't believe why it hasn't been addressed more convincingly given the funds available in the summer. I've been saying it for a few years now- but CB has been a massive weakness for us in recent seasons. Sure Coates may come in and be world class, but will that happen by the end of the season? Not only that, but given Agger's constantly injured, should we have gotten 2 CBs?

Either way, that's a big problem area in the team- I don't think it'll keep out any half decent teams (they got utterly schooled against Tottenham) let alone the very top ones. The Manc games will be a big eye opener. You'd expect those problems, by then, have been identified and are on the way to being resolved, and they'll be a test of that.

The thing is, that is a result of the team being more geared towards attacking (a few years ago we were all talking about the opposite thing; team wasn't fluid in attacking and too defensive at times). It's just a case of striking that balance, which is to be expected given how new the side is. I just hope they don't take so long to resolve that it leaves us staring at another season out of the CL next season, because at that point you're going to find it incredibly hard to get back in (it'll be a lot harder to attract the right players after 3 seasons out of the biggest competition in the game and a lot harder to keep the likes of Suarez and Pepe).

So positives in there, but way too many negatives after the last couple of weeks.
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2011, 09:26:33 pm »
I dunno. I've just read Hightown Phil's post on The Anfield Wrap and thankfully it's saved me the effort of writing something similar.

This is it here: http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2011/09/divvies-a-rant

Here's the bit that chimed with what was going through my mind.

Quote
...why are people so keen to get angry while they’re watching us? Moan moan and fucking moan, ‘this isn’t right, that isn’t right, why’s that happening? Why’s this happening? Why aren’t we 6-0 up? blah blah blah. 

I know he's talking about his experiences at the game, but it chimes here. We're all about perfection, aren't we? Is that reasonable? We had a great spell in the first half and could (and probably should) have scored another three in the second. Yes, we're a work in progress, and yes, there are elements of our game that aren't where they could be, but in the main we're still a very strong squad indeed, and we're winning games we were losing at this stage last year.

Two signings in January could potentially render any gaps a thing of the past. But we went on and on and on about 'ooh, we're going to have 'Moneyball' owners since pretty much this time last year, and when the side on the park features players who don't correspond to our foto-fit view of how the best of breed in that position should be played, we're up in arms.

For me that was a solid victory and you bettter believe that Wolves squad will cause people problems this year, because they have hard working players with pace who can play a bit. Why would we act so surprised when they get a spell when they put us under pressure? They'll do that to a lot of sides, and away from home an all.

Anyway rant over. Suarez is a delight - even his tantrums are delightful. We'd best appreciate him while he's here, because he'll be too soon gone, and he's not your archetypal player.

Carroll? Well, that was positive.

I'm not interested in the negatives for now.

Offline John C

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2011, 12:15:21 am »
After this I think Kenny will be thinking about different levels and aspects of improvement. And together with the 3 welcome points, Carroll's improvement was the most promising aspect to come out of the game. I've talked for weeks now about him not getting service either on the floor or in the air and when that cross was finally delivered he was unlucky not to put that away. He deserved a goal to cap his efforts from yesterday and the frustration of previous weeks. Looking forward, we can only expect that the improvement will continue as fitness & sharpness allow and service permits.
Kenny will by now have realised the level of football needs attention. Not only does he need his team to be involved collectively more significantly for 90 minutes, I expect he'll be looking at why our midfield struggle to control a game for sustained periods. The answer may well have appeared in the 81st minute. There's no doubt that whatever the formation - 433, 4231, 4141 - Stevie will contribute enormously to commanding that area. imo the signs are there that we desperately need him back for the rest of the season. Its not because the new signings need to gel - its because they are simply not as good as SG even when he's running on 3-cylinders. So the level of football that Kenny desires does need to improve, he'll know that so there's no point in people being precious about us second guessing Kenny's thoughts or preparation.

In defence I really can't believe how lucky we are to have Enrique albeit that wasn't quite his finest game. Kelly was out-of-sorts in the second half which is understandable. I honestly think that Kenny will already be thinking about which CB pairing will enter March & April. I predict that either Coates will summoned to step in or there could be a sneaky purchase in January (that's for another thread when January freezes over like Luis Squarez's demeanour after being subbed).

On a massive positive, our gem shone again yesterday, the way Suarez took that ball and killed it in front of him was as good as the power and accuracy he had to score. Keepers should never be beaten at their near post but that was excusable.

There's still far more positives than negatives despite some moaning quarters and I'm glad we have a full weeks preparation to face the bitters who may not be as big a test as Wolves - they were no mugs yesterday and I don't expect to see them anywhere near a relegation battle like they were last year having been unlucky to drop points in so many games.

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2011, 01:02:15 am »
I missed the game, heard the result, heard the negative reports and downloaded the game and watched it. I was expecting a big period of Wolves pressure but instead saw a comfortable victory, with some sloppy defending for the goal being the most obvious negative. Wolves had some good possession for ten, fifteen minutes but did little with it other than horse it in the mixer. Besides that there were some very clear, open chances (Suarez volley saved, Carroll against the post, Downing 1 on 1 saved etc.) So, likely 4 or 5 goal chances wasted and still a comfortable win. I think when you watch it back, minus the nerves, its a much clearer cut victory. But, as a number of posters have noted, not all is rosy in the camp.

Starting with the defense, yes we are sitting too deep. However, I don't really blame the back four. The midfield is so open in front of them, they are almost forced to drop deep. If any of you have ever played a game in defense you will know what I'm talking about. If you are looking up and all you see are opposition midfielders pouring forward, then your reaction will be to drop deep and protect your goal. That's not to say the back four are blameless. Carragher is clearly labouring. However, Johnny Giles had an interesting point to make on that, on Irish radio. He said Carragher takes on a lot of responsibility and therefore is more subject to scrutiny. I feel he is right, that in many ways Skrtel is hiding behind the personality of Carragher. As Jamie screams, organises and attacks every ball, Skrtel is a much meeker presence, more inclined to sit back and let Carragher do the talking.  That would be fine if Skrtel was in the same mold as Agger, but he's not. At the minute his is a liability, rash tackles, high feet, weak headers. He's really started poorly this year. The saving grace for both has been the excellence of the FBs; Kelly, despite being continuously exposed has done well and Enrique is a fine acquisition. These two have done a lot of covering for the flakiness of the CBs.

The real problem as I see it stems from midfield. Downing is a flyer going forward and a real combination with Enrique. Going backwards, largely anonymous. that in itself would not be so problematic if it weren't for the inferior performances of Adam and Henderson. Adam worries me. Yesterday the commentator described him as 'tugging a caravan' and he's not far wrong. Honestly, he is Poulsen with a better range of passing. Too many times yesterday he was just coming in to view, trailing behind the rest of the side, as the back four were desperately trying to fend off a whole host of attacking midfielders. He was particularly poor for the goal, not reacting to the man snaffling up the loose ball and being in the wrong position to cut out the pullback. He just seemed to be standing in no mans land as the striker had a free shot from 6 yards. Besides this hos overall performance was just low in quality. He does not deserve his spot on this form and in my opinion offers less than Spearing right now.

Similarly Henderson is not nearly playing well enough to warrant his place. He was all over the place yesterday and left Kelly enormously exposed. Going forward he offered even less. He is not a RM; if you don't believe me, look what he does when he gets the ball on the wing. His first reaction is to pass backwards, a cautious approach. That's not what wingers do, they attack the outside. That wouldn't be so bad if he was tough in defense, but too often he is nowhere to be seen. He gets pulled into the middle leaving the flank (and the FB) fatally exposed. He is clearly a  midfielder playing out of position, like Meireles was last year.

The difference yesterday was the forward line. Carroll was excellent showing a range of passing I never suspected he had. He doesn't have anything like the movement of Torres, but he was far more mobile and powerful yesterday. Once he faded, the problems in the middle became far more obvious. Suarez was terrific again yesterday and his rage at being subbed warmed the cockles of my heart. Too fucking right, I would never want to be taken off either.

What stayed with me yesterday though was how average that side looked. They were no different from a whole host of premier sides. They are miles off a United, a Chelsea or a city. Then again, that's not really our measuring stick this year, but of the second tier sides I would say Liverpool are currently fielding the weakest midfiedl and that's where all our current travails are stemming from. The solution (to me) is obvious. Kuyt must be brought in and Adam and Henderson must be taken out (for either Spearing or Gerrard). The other solution is a five man midfield (with Adam at its apex) and that might be the most sensible for Everton away and United at home. Those are killer games at this stage of the season and I can see us getting torn apart by their respective midfields unless we pack them. That might seem a bit harsh on Carroll (the obvious loser) but needs must at this stage.

This might seem a little negative, but I think we are going to get thumped in the next two games. I can't see Dalglish dropping either Adam or Henderson, two players I (currently) regard as liabilities. If you offered me two points now for the next two games, i would take your hand off. The fact is if we get through those two games relatively undamaged, we have about 6 straightforward games that can be used to gel the side and iron out the current kinks in the side. That gets us to January when we can have another go at squad building. 

So, to sum up, midfield is the problem area that is exacerbating problems elsewhere. Everton away and United at home (I believe) will not end well, but that should be the end of a bad period and the start of a good run of potentially positive games that will allow the team to gel as a unit.
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2011, 01:30:21 am »
Good result. 3 points. What more is there to that? But if one scratches the surface, more worrying signs are revealed. In the second half, we played like a low mid-table team away. Yeah, seriously. We allowed Wolves, a relegation-battle team to run all over us and if they had been more clinical in front of goal, could have snatched a draw or an unlikely win.

I have no qualms about the way we attack. We can be so fluid and entertaining at full flight. Our defensive set up is a big worry. I feel that we are not working as a team when defending and that puts too much pressure on our backline and poor old Lucas. Yes, it exposes the lack of quality of our backline - Carra was below par in the first half and Skrtel was a liability. He's very fortunate not to have picked up a yellow. Players like Adam and Hendo are next to useless when defending and it's hurting us. When we had the amazing run last season under Kenny, we had attacking players tracking back to defend. We were pressing further up the pitch.

It's a juggling act for Kenny - blood the new players in as much as possible in hope they'll come good in the second half of the season and in the other hand, win enough games to maintain a top 4 position. Although still a tad early to tell, it's showing that Kenny's insistence on playing Carroll is vindicated. Carroll has certainly improved in the last 2 games and I believe he can get better when he gets fitter. With Stevie G coming good on fitness, I'm sure he'll get more playing time at the expense of Adam, which isn't such a bad thing. I hope Kenny doesn't limit Lucas to bench appearances because he's so vital to the team in his defensive duties. So far, Adam hasn't really settled into the team. He can be a defensive liability and often commits fouls when he loses possession. That leaves Hendo. I like him as one having the highest potential but right now, the team is suffering with his inclusion. In quite a few matches, he has gone anonymous and in top flight football, we can't allow for passengers during a match. I believe he doesn't have the technical maturity yet to be played out of position. The way he moves and passes, suggest that he is a central player. I wonder if Kenny takes a gamble of playing Stevie on the right and Hendo in a central position. That MAY work. So, it'll be a 4-1-3-1-1 formation with Lucas in front of the back 4 and Carroll up front on his own.

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2011, 03:36:06 am »
Good result. 3 points. What more is there to that? But if one scratches the surface, more worrying signs are revealed. In the second half, we played like a low mid-table team away. Yeah, seriously. We allowed Wolves, a relegation-battle team to run all over us and if they had been more clinical in front of goal, could have snatched a draw or an unlikely win.

I have no qualms about the way we attack. We can be so fluid and entertaining at full flight. Our defensive set up is a big worry. I feel that we are not working as a team when defending and that puts too much pressure on our backline and poor old Lucas. Yes, it exposes the lack of quality of our backline - Carra was below par in the first half and Skrtel was a liability. He's very fortunate not to have picked up a yellow. Players like Adam and Hendo are next to useless when defending and it's hurting us. When we had the amazing run last season under Kenny, we had attacking players tracking back to defend. We were pressing further up the pitch.

It's a juggling act for Kenny - blood the new players in as much as possible in hope they'll come good in the second half of the season and in the other hand, win enough games to maintain a top 4 position. Although still a tad early to tell, it's showing that Kenny's insistence on playing Carroll is vindicated. Carroll has certainly improved in the last 2 games and I believe he can get better when he gets fitter. With Stevie G coming good on fitness, I'm sure he'll get more playing time at the expense of Adam, which isn't such a bad thing. I hope Kenny doesn't limit Lucas to bench appearances because he's so vital to the team in his defensive duties. So far, Adam hasn't really settled into the team. He can be a defensive liability and often commits fouls when he loses possession. That leaves Hendo. I like him as one having the highest potential but right now, the team is suffering with his inclusion. In quite a few matches, he has gone anonymous and in top flight football, we can't allow for passengers during a match. I believe he doesn't have the technical maturity yet to be played out of position. The way he moves and passes, suggest that he is a central player. I wonder if Kenny takes a gamble of playing Stevie on the right and Hendo in a central position. That MAY work. So, it'll be a 4-1-3-1-1 formation with Lucas in front of the back 4 and Carroll up front on his own.

Agree with most of the above. Hope Kenny's insistence on blooding new players and hopefully win in the process is vindicated with these players actually improving over time, like Carroll has done. Carroll had his best game for us (and yes, better than ManC last year despite no goals) v Wolves but I think strangely Adam had one of his worst despite the goal. Atm, he's not 1st eleven material (and neither is Hendo). Even Spearo has looked better with us (from last years' games in his partnership with Lucas). Adam has to improve on his effort when without the ball, his positioning, and to stop being the lone ranger. At the moment he's leaving a lot of gaps and missing teammates in better positions. Does he need time? Yes. But play him in CC and FA cups now that Gerrard is back.
 
I hope Lucas doesn't get burnt out and the tantrum from Suarez isn't something more. I fear Kuyt's departure in the near departure: first eleven for Holland and now 2nd choice behind an apprentice??? The problem I have with that is him playing well and yet still getting dropped.
 
I also thought that we looked better in the first half because Wolves gave us too much respect, much like Sunderland did. I think the half time talk's pretty simple: "you gave them too much respect!"
 
Cue better performance, and we start to look much worse and the chances dry up and we go back to relying on counter attacks, much like the Houllier days. Shouldn't happen against Wolves though.
 
A team that doesn't give us that kind of respect (like Tottenham) will make us look poor from the start. We play a more open game now compared to Rafa's time, more offensive (not necessarily better), but with no control of the game at all, no high tempo pressing, poor positioning, few ball winners (except Lucas, Spearing and Kuyt, and hopefully Stevie G now that he's back). It's like we're only set up to attack directly rather than to play with control and composure or to suffocate play (not every single move has to be about attack). With time and gelling I hope and expect the team to prove my impression wrong. It's really worrying if not.We need to seize the opportunity, get back to CL and get/keep good players.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 03:51:07 am by RedRush »

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2011, 08:53:38 am »

Not sure about that Roy however Iīve yet to rewatch the game.

For me itīs not about wishing for perfection, more about seeing very clear problems in the team and then simply trying to discuss here how they would need to be addressed.

Some people have said we were very comfortable in that game when the watched it back, some said we struggled. Personally I felt it was pretty much even, that is the problem for me, it really shouldnīt have been. At home Wolves had more possession and more shots on goal than we do. The difference between the two team, IMO, is the cost of attackers. Wolves attacker players are not, at all, clinical. However they had no qualms about getting the ball in and around our box and getting shots off. That worries me. We can and should be able to control that part of that game. That isnīt expecting perfection. If you added a poacher like Kevin Phillips into that Wolves team, I think weīd have dropped points.

I still think the difference between the two teams was Suarez. His individual brilliance won us the game. That is why we spent 23m to get him. Nothing wrong with that, Rooney and before him Ronaldo won games all the time for Man Utd with moments of brilliance. We also created several clear cut chances and that is a positive too. Again, I kinda expect that given the players at our disposal. However what I just cannot understand is why we cannot control a game. Dominate the midfield. Break down attacks before our own box. Defending from the 6 yard box like itīs extra time in Istanbul again.

You are right, Wolves are a good team and itīs fair to expect moments of pressure from them. What I also think itīs fair to expect though is that on 65 minutes, Carraghers average position for the game isnīt 16 yards from goal. I just cannot offer any explanation why he is that deep.

I also watched back the Reading game yesterday for the first time and noticed the same patterns. Brighton have ball at the back, our 2 attakers close them down, ball played out to full backs, then quickly into midfield where there is at least 60 yards between our attackers and Carragher and Coates who are 20 yards from goal. How can Lucas and Adam (that game it was Spearing) reasonably be expected to cover that much space. If they press ball at that moment it just compounds the problem. If you drop off, good players will pick you off with time on the ball. Modric mauled us because of this very problem. I have no doubt the Manchester United midfield will too. In terms of personnel I would say our midfield is on a par or even better than theirs. Yet Lucas will look average running around on his own in a 40 meters squared area chasing Anderson and Fletcher.

Someone suggested that the defence drops off because the midfield is letting runners through. Personally I donīt see it that way. I see the midfield in a lose-lose situation. Press the ball and there is acres of space in behind, drop off and there is acres in front and you get picked off. I would suggest in response that we are already too deep and their natural solution to solve the problem this then creates is to drop even deeper. I just cannot see any justification for having such a gap between defence and attack. Itīs almost like the attack has been told to press high, defence been told to defend the box and midfield has been given no instructions at all. Obviously, I doubt that is the case however if that is how it is playing out, then it seems like we have a section of the team playing in a different way to what they are being instructed and coached.

In summary. Reading this back, it sounds very moany/whingy.... that isnīt intended, I simply donīt understand our teams intentions/plan when defending.
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2011, 09:37:23 am »

Someone suggested that the defence drops off because the midfield is letting runners through. Personally I donīt see it that way. I see the midfield in a lose-lose situation. Press the ball and there is acres of space in behind, drop off and there is acres in front and you get picked off. I would suggest in response that we are already too deep and their natural solution to solve the problem this then creates is to drop even deeper. I just cannot see any justification for having such a gap between defence and attack. Itīs almost like the attack has been told to press high, defence been told to defend the box and midfield has been given no instructions at all. Obviously, I doubt that is the case however if that is how it is playing out, then it seems like we have a section of the team playing in a different way to what they are being instructed and coached.
The pressing should be done higher up the pitch, not by the CMs but the wingers and forwards. That's how an effective press should be. In regards to Modric, perhaps we should have Spearing on him the whole bloody time, like what opposition midfielders do to Gerrard.

Why can't we have the best of Rafa and Kenny? Rafa's system was more defensively set up, stiffling the opposition but in attack, it lacks the bite and fluidity of Kenny's.

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2011, 09:59:39 am »
Someone suggested that the defence drops off because the midfield is letting runners through. Personally I donīt see it that way. I see the midfield in a lose-lose situation. Press the ball and there is acres of space in behind, drop off and there is acres in front and you get picked off. I would suggest in response that we are already too deep and their natural solution to solve the problem this then creates is to drop even deeper. I just cannot see any justification for having such a gap between defence and attack. Itīs almost like the attack has been told to press high, defence been told to defend the box and midfield has been given no instructions at all. Obviously, I doubt that is the case however if that is how it is playing out, then it seems like we have a section of the team playing in a different way to what they are being instructed and coached.


That was me. I wasn't absolving the backline though, there are very evident problems there. But definitely Adam is struggling to play as a holding midfielder. Too often it is Lucas sprinting to the breakdown and Adam chugging in to sight a few yards behind him. There are gaps all over the midfield, though in part that is the danger of the 442. Wolves played a 4231 yesterday and it was unsurprising they got between the midfield and backline so easily. The cost was to their attack, since that seemed so blunt yesterday. It takes a very good midfield to counter a one man advantage, but I feel we really don't have a very good midfield at the minute.

But is that stemming from a deep lying backline is the question? Perhaps so, we do tend to start games very well, only for creepback to occur, perhaps suggesting a tiring back four are sitting deeper and deeper out of fear. Of course, it could just be nerves and a 'what we have, we hold attitude'. In a few weeks when the team is more settled and a few key players are back this will (hopefully) be less problematic, but it does look like that the Everton and united games are coming at a really bad time.

Beatings will continue until morale improves...

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2011, 10:29:37 am »
It was interesting to see some of the tits who spent much of Rafa's latter years moaning about playing two defensive midfielders screaming for the introduction of Spearing for Adam in the second half on Saturday. 

It is early days and the team is definitely a work in progress.  In many ways it was very similar to the Brighton game in that there were periods where we looked superb going forwards and their were periods where we lost any hold on midifeld and ended up camped out on our own 18 yard line in a state of semi-panic.

Looking at individuals, Carroll looked more effective but at the moment he looks like a striker who needs to learn to be on his toes looking for a through ball. He looks like a nice passer of the ball once he gets it under control though.  Adam and Henderson are clearly not contributing enough at the moment, but it is early days.  I think the return of Gerrard should definitely help both of them.
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2011, 10:59:05 am »
At the moment it seems as if we are trying to defend with four players, attack with four players and the midfield two are trying in vain to connect the defending four with the attacking four. When we attack the defence doesn't push up and try and compress the play and pen teams in and when we defend the front four basically leave the two CM's and the four defenders to get on with it.

When we up the tempo and the midfield manages to unite the two halves of the team with each other we look a very decent outfit. Then as soon as we attempt to ease off the gas and take a breather we end up leaving huge gaps in midfield. I think it's pretty obvious that we defend too deep but we also don't get enough men behind the ball when we come off the throttle.

United for years have been absolutely brilliant at going through the motions particularly away from home they just stay in games, play within themselves and give nothing away. They create a couple of chances they will usually take one and then just see the game out. If they don't take their chances in the last twenty they just use that energy they have conserved and blow the opposition away.

We seem to have lost that knack of being able play within ourselves, slow the game down and see it out. If we don't play at a million miles an hour then we simply cannot control teams. When we are under the cosh instead of just taking the sting out of the game by taking our time over goalkicks, throw ins and drawing free kicks in the middle of the pitch we rush everything and end up conceding possession and allow teams to ramp up the pressure.

Hopefully it's just a result of being a work in progress and we can learn to control games by playing at a slower tempo. The irony for me is that we have gone from being a team with an incredibly strong defence and midfield but lacking in gamebreakers to a team that has gamebreakers in abundance but a lack of quality in central defence and in midfield.

Let's hope we find the correct balance sooner rather than later.
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2011, 11:09:26 am »
In many ways it was very similar to the Brighton game in that there were periods [on Saturday] where we looked superb going forwards

We must have been watching entirely different performances. The way I saw saturday we never once approached the level of passing and movement and interplay that we'd seen in the first half against Brighton with Bellamy, kuyt, Maxi, Lucas and suarez interchanging. nowhere near that level. Not saying there weren't a few good spells but for me they were not at the level we saw down at brighton which at times was mesmerising.

The one parallel in the two offensive performances was Luis. And yet even there I'd say in contrast to the attacking as a whole he actually played better on saturday than at brighton where he was guilty of a few more bits of sloppy play. If he'd have been as finely tuned down there at brighton as he was on saturday then I think we might have run up a few goals more by half time.

 :)

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2011, 11:12:25 am »
It was interesting to see some of the tits who spent much of Rafa's latter years moaning about playing two defensive midfielders screaming for the introduction of Spearing for Adam in the second half on Saturday. 

Thats a very black and white view of it. There were calls for Spearing because all they had to do to get at our defence was hoof it and then mop up the second balls because we weren't getting of them, our midfield wasn't providing nearly enough of a shield to a defence, that was probably too deep.

The main word I got from that game was anxiety. Everyone was thinking, we should win this, if we don't it is a disaster. The atmosphere seemed like one of impending doom, chewed fingernails rather than boisterous support. I think both the team and fans are still insecure about their form, especially after the last two seasons and more pertinently, the last two defeats.

I presume with the derby coming up and Gerrard probably returning to the starting line up, we should see some more fight in the team. Everton away will be hugely tough but a win would do great things for their morale. Carroll's performance was more encouraging. He needs a goal for his confidence as he looked sluggish at just the wrong moments, not mentally sharp. We saw how much Torres sprung into life after a few decent contributions for Chelsea, one of two moments for big AC could change the way he plays.

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2011, 11:21:42 am »
More tooth up front but a performance very similar to under Hodgsdon; with no real link between mid-field and defence - a mid-field that didn't seem to know when to sit and when to go and also to be fair; consists of 3 new recruits that is gonna take time to gel, it is gonna take time, we shouldn't kid ourselves about that, perhaps this is why Kenny plays Henderson quite regularly, even though he hasn't really set the world alight? And a defence that looks like it's scared once again of the space behind it, so sits deep.
Even with our shaky start to the season we have some good(Enrique) and some bad(sitting deep) points, though we are seriously lacking pace in the middle of defence, a problem that pre-dates this season, so we shouldn't be too surprised by these same occuring issues with the back four, or more to the point; the centre halves.
Using this game as a gauge I think there are going to be quite a few highs this season, but also some lows, as we still have a glass jaw, that is until we get the cohesion/balance between mid-field and defence sorted.

I if I had one real gripe, we have got to start taking out chances, it's too easy to say their goalie had a great game, we have to be finishing teams off.

I'm new here, so excuse me if thats a pile of shite.  ;D
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2011, 11:33:51 am »
At the moment it seems as if we are trying to defend with four players, attack with four players and the midfield two are trying in vain to connect the defending four with the attacking four. When we attack the defence doesn't push up and try and compress the play and pen teams in and when we defend the front four basically leave the two CM's and the four defenders to get on with it.

When we up the tempo and the midfield manages to unite the two halves of the team with each other we look a very decent outfit. Then as soon as we attempt to ease off the gas and take a breather we end up leaving huge gaps in midfield. I think it's pretty obvious that we defend too deep but we also don't get enough men behind the ball when we come off the throttle.

United for years have been absolutely brilliant at going through the motions particularly away from home they just stay in games, play within themselves and give nothing away. They create a couple of chances they will usually take one and then just see the game out. If they don't take their chances in the last twenty they just use that energy they have conserved and blow the opposition away.

We seem to have lost that knack of being able play within ourselves, slow the game down and see it out. If we don't play at a million miles an hour then we simply cannot control teams. When we are under the cosh instead of just taking the sting out of the game by taking our time over goalkicks, throw ins and drawing free kicks in the middle of the pitch we rush everything and end up conceding possession and allow teams to ramp up the pressure.

Hopefully it's just a result of being a work in progress and we can learn to control games by playing at a slower tempo. The irony for me is that we have gone from being a team with an incredibly strong defence and midfield but lacking in gamebreakers to a team that has gamebreakers in abundance but a lack of quality in central defence and in midfield.

Let's hope we find the correct balance sooner rather than later.
Agree with what you say there and as I said the other day, we don't seem to know what to do(on saturdays evidence) when we haven't got the ball.

And if I had a penny for every time I'd mentioned balance (or our lack of it) in the last 12 months, I'd be a millionaire!
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 11:38:32 am by CHOPPER »
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2011, 11:40:32 am »
Thats a very black and white view of it. There were calls for Spearing because all they had to do to get at our defence was hoof it and then mop up the second balls because we weren't getting of them, our midfield wasn't providing nearly enough of a shield to a defence, that was probably too deep.

Indeed.  I just found it ironic. 4WIW I thought we needed someone else in the middle to help Lucas attempt to stem the tide, but then I've always been a fan of two players who protect the defence and thus allow other players to get forwards.  I just found it ironic that those gobshites who gave Lucas and Mascherano shite back in the day had now got what they wanted and were back tracking far more quickly than Charlie Adam ever will.
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Offline Grobbelrevell

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2011, 11:59:21 am »
The thing that really puzzles me (and was touched on above by No666) is the utter fragility of our defence at the moment.

When Steve Clark arrived last season we saw an almost immediate improvement in the defensive aspect of our game. Suddenly we looked more organised and comfortable when out of posession (look at Chelsea away as a prime example). The midfield were screening the back four and there was much more cohesion in the team in terms of pressing and dropping off as a single unit. In short, Clark looked to be the perfect foil for Kenny.

Other factors have been mentioned to explain this seasons problems, not least a certain Jamie Carragher, but the fact is, he was there last season when we looked much more comfortable.

So what's happened since then? There are new players and that's the only real reason I can think of that makes any sense. We always knew that bedding in such numbers in one hit was going to take some time, but I must admit, I didn't expect it to cause the level of disarray that we've seen at times in our organisation and cohesion as a defensive unit. It looks as though there's more to it than purely personel and that's worrying as well as confusing, purely because these problems were not there last season. Not to anywhere near the extent we've seen in the last few games anyway.

Where has the high intensity pressing of the opposition gone, for one? Even in Kennys book he talks of the importance of defending from the front and how one of the biggest strengths of the Liverpool sides he played in was their ability to 'hunt in packs'. At the moment though - and i've mentioned this in previous post-game reviews - we seem to be falling between two stools on this, with our front pair pressing the opposition defence (generally), whilst simultaneously our back-four drops off, which is then causing a host of other issues. Again, there's a evident lack of cohesion and organisation there.

Kenny and Clark certainly proved in the second half of last season that they are more than capable of producing a side well drilled in its defensive duties, so that leads me to expect these problems to be addressed sooner rather than later. I still find it strange that they've surfaced to such a degree, though.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 12:19:12 pm by Grobbelrevell »
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2011, 12:58:32 pm »
I don't think the problems are defensive primarily.  The problem on Saturday was that the defence had no protection and no respite.  Clearances were being mopped up by Wolves and immediately returned into the box.  In that sort of situation even the best defence will start to look creaky and make panicky decisions.

Wolves were playing 4-5-1 and had packed the centre with workers, with the exception of Lucas our midfield was entirely peripheral when they had the ball. 
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2011, 01:00:10 pm »
 a couple of thoughts - Henderson's position - do we really know what role he is being asked to perform?

there are people bemoaning he isn't a winger, people moaning he isn't covering the full back and people moaning Lucas is the only player in midfield - so where is he? I'd suggest he is trying to do all three - support going forward, covering back and covering across to allow Downing and Adam to get forward - and because he is trying to be in three places at once - he's ended up in the wrong places and will continue to until he gets better and more settled - - I think its  a very tough gig he's been handed and it'l take time to settle - he actually started the game well and was instrumental in some good play - its the type of role we've used before regularly in the 70's and 80's and one I really like - it requires not only tremendous athleticsim but a great understanding of the game and the ability to anticipate the play - given we have 6 new players trying to settle that makes it even harder. I'd hope we could give Henderson some time to settle
.
but people do seem intent on just picking up the negatives - I love the idea we were lucky to win despite the fact we should have scored 5 and the opposition 3 - my maths aint great but we'd have still won with those numbers wouldn't we?


Our defence is going to look shakey having just been thumped 4 -0 isn't it? Sktrel's confidence must be low, Kelly's fitness is suspect and the cover as has been discussed isn't great. It only takes one rotten apple to make a poor defence and for one reason or another all of our back 5 have their reasons to be struggling. A clean sheet would be useful. We are trying to play a more expansive game with Downing and Adam allowed to get forward that will expose the defenders more than they've been used to and it will take them time to adapt.

We are a work in progress but you get the feeling unless the games are incredibly one sided peple aren't satisfied. We are 5th having played Arsenal. Spurs and Stoke away - its a decent start to the season and with better finishing it could have been better.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 01:02:26 pm by Vulmea »
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2011, 01:10:30 pm »
Can't argue with any of that Vulmea.  I see Henderson as being given the Houghton role with Downing as Barnes, Lucas as Whelan and Adam, well he's clearly not McMahon, though he does have a bit of the Molby's about him (both the good and the bad). It will be interesting to see when Gerrard returns will he get the Houghton role or the McMahon one?  If he gets the central gig then is Henderson or Adam the one to make way?
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2011, 01:25:02 pm »
Can't argue with any of that Vulmea.  I see Henderson as being given the Houghton role with Downing as Barnes, Lucas as Whelan and Adam, well he's clearly not McMahon, though he does have a bit of the Molby's about him (both the good and the bad). It will be interesting to see when Gerrard returns will he get the Houghton role or the McMahon one?  If he gets the central gig then is Henderson or Adam the one to make way?

Who gets the Burrows role in CM?
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2011, 01:27:37 pm »
Do you guys really think that Kenny is kind of redoing what he did 20 years ago or are you just giving food for thoughts here?

In my wildest football dreams I cannot imagine this, football has changed that dramatically, it wouldnīt make sense to me at all..

« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 01:30:20 pm by steveeastend »
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Offline Stevo79

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2011, 01:34:37 pm »
It has been touched on above, the problems with our midfield stemmed from having two of our midfielders off the pace and not close enough to harry the Wolves midfield. This left Lucas with far too much to do and consequently whenever the ball was cleared it was easy for Wolves to pick the ball up and start attacking again.

This would be easily solved with the introduction of Kuyt and Spearing on Saturday. The energy and workrate of those two would allow us to get a grip on the midfield and dictate the play oursleves for larger parts of the game. Gerrard has only had two brief appearances so I would imagine he'll get 20-30 minutes depending how the game is going.

As improved as Carroll looked I think I would like to see Bellamy in for the Derby. The quick interchanging between him, Luis and Dirk would cause more problems for Everton in my opinion and his work rate at closing defenders down giving them no time on the ball would also benefit.

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2011, 01:35:22 pm »
Do you guys really think that Kenny is kind of redoing what he did 20 years ago or food for thoughts?

In my wildest football dreams I cannot imagine this, football has changed that dramatically, it woulndīt make sense to me at all..

The game hasn't changed that dramatically that the ideas that made his team great back then wouldn't work now. It's essentially the same model that all great teams converge towards, even the current Barcelona. The danger isn't that Dalglish's tactical ideas are out of date. The danger is that Dalglish can come up with some loopy leftfield ideas in pursuit of a tactical solution that doesn't exist. But I'm OK with that. I never expected perfection, at least not immediately. But from his track record, I expected an interesting game, and he's lived up to that.
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2011, 01:58:32 pm »
Who gets the Burrows role in CM?

I should just warn you that, given the circumstances, I think alluding to Dalglish's post 1988-89 season footballing decisions in such a manner is the sort of nonsense I would expect of a sick Manc.  When it comes from a Liverpool fan I find them beyond contempt.  Purely a personal thing, just flagging it up for future reference.
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2011, 02:01:19 pm »
Do you guys really think that Kenny is kind of redoing what he did 20 years ago or are you just giving food for thoughts here?

In my wildest football dreams I cannot imagine this, football has changed that dramatically, it wouldnīt make sense to me at all..

I don't see any reason why the way that team was organised would not work today.  It was balanced, players like Beardsley naturally operated "between the lines" it's just that we didn't need pretentious jargon for everything back then.
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Bill Shankly - 'The socialism I believe in is not really politics; it is humanity, a way of living and sharing the rewards'

Offline Sangria

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2011, 02:05:14 pm »
I should just warn you that, given the circumstances, I think alluding to Dalglish's post 1988-89 season footballing decisions in such a manner is the sort of nonsense I would expect of a sick Manc.  When it comes from a Liverpool fan I find them beyond contempt.  Purely a personal thing, just flagging it up for future reference.

Don't read it in that way. I don't think of those decisions as wrong or worthy of contempt, as you seem to think I do. I think Dalglish is constantly on the lookout for ways to get a tactical edge, and some of those don't work out, but I still love him for trying them in the first place.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2011, 02:05:41 pm »
The game hasn't changed that dramatically that the ideas that made his team great back then wouldn't work now. It's essentially the same model that all great teams converge towards, even the current Barcelona. The danger isn't that Dalglish's tactical ideas are out of date. The danger is that Dalglish can come up with some loopy leftfield ideas in pursuit of a tactical solution that doesn't exist. But I'm OK with that. I never expected perfection, at least not immediately. But from his track record, I expected an interesting game, and he's lived up to that.

I don't see any reason why the way that team was organised would not work today.  It was balanced, players like Beardsley naturally operated "between the lines" it's just that we didn't need pretentious jargon for everything back then.

Agree with most of what you are saying.

I think that the game changed though, especially in one respect which would be the fact that you cannot afford to have ONE player not working for defense nowadays.

Every team who hasnīt his attacking players working for the team from minute one is lost in midfield or defense.

What I am trying to say is that all ideas are worthless if the players arenīt working from the first to the last minute. I think this has changed dramatically, a couple of years ago itīs been still possible to have your target man a little less working. Not today.

Stoke playing ManU was a good example. Because of Owen, they couldnīt control the midfield as they normally do with Rooney. If the attacking players work properly the defenders get under pressure and itīs a lot easier to win the ball back.

Our midfield is lost at the moment between a deep sitting midfield and attacking players not working enough for defense.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 02:08:09 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2011, 02:06:39 pm »
Don't read it in that way. I don't think of those decisions as wrong or worthy of contempt, as you seem to think I do. I think Dalglish is constantly on the lookout for ways to get a tactical edge, and some of those don't work out, but I still love him for trying them in the first place.

I think you've missed my point, which may be for the best as it was not meant personally. 
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Bill Shankly - 'The socialism I believe in is not really politics; it is humanity, a way of living and sharing the rewards'

Offline Sangria

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2011, 02:12:36 pm »
I think you've missed my point, which may be for the best as it was not meant personally. 

I' just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean it in such a manner. My comment was a joking reference to the kind of tactical gymnastics that Dalglish was prone to, even pre-Hillsborough. My response to steveeastend elaborates on that, as I've also done so elsewhere. Dalglish does make interesting choices, and I'm happy that he does, even when they don't work out, as I'd rather have a manager who tries strange ideas than one who doesn't have any new ideas at all. It's not a mocking reference to his state of mind after Hillborough, as it was mistaken for.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2011, 02:28:25 pm »
Agree with most of what you are saying.

I think that the game changed though, especially in one respect which would be the fact that you cannot afford to have ONE player not working for defense nowadays.

Every team who hasnīt his attacking players working for the team from minute one is lost in midfield or defense.

What I am trying to say is that all ideas are worthless if the players arenīt working from the first to the last minute. I think this has changed dramatically, a couple of years ago itīs been still possible to have your target man a little less working. Not today.

Stoke playing ManU was a good example. Because of Owen, they couldnīt control the midfield as they normally do with Rooney. If the attacking players work properly the defenders get under pressure and itīs a lot easier to win the ball back.

Our midfield is lost at the moment between a deep sitting midfield and attacking players not working enough for defense.

Man United with Ronaldo for example or Nani?

I dont think it would free up Downing of all defensive responsibility but it would mean more of a lopsided 433 than 442- Kenny is well known for his asymetrical formations - you may also have a point about the change in the game - the pace of the game is so much faster - our right midfielders worked hard - whether they could do that at the pace of the modern game is another question - if could explain subbing the rm regularly

just a thought really - maybe some chalk boards would show one way or t'other - most are assuming Henderson is coming inside through lack of patience/discipline/understanding I'm just questioning whether its actually part of the plan - if it is the lads got a lot to handle and the crowd need to give him some slack

when Gerard returns that should tell us a lot more I guess




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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2011, 03:02:54 pm »
just a thought really - maybe some chalk boards would show one way or t'other - most are assuming Henderson is coming inside through lack of patience/discipline/understanding I'm just questioning whether its actually part of the plan - if it is the lads got a lot to handle and the crowd need to give him some slack

Some chalkboards then. First, Downing. Note he wasn't swapping wings much, stuck rigidly to the left, lots of (incomplete, but you expect that) crosses from the end line, very much in keeping with a winger profile.



now Henderson. Note the spread of passing, much more unstructured (perhaps your point about asymmetry is well made!) however what's notable for me is the lack of crosses from the end line and the amount of balls going backwards... not typical wing man behaviour.

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Offline woof

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2011, 03:16:58 pm »
now Henderson. Note the spread of passing, much more unstructured (perhaps your point about asymmetry is well made!) however what's notable for me is the lack of crosses from the end line and the amount of balls going backwards... not typical wing man behaviour.

Noticed that too without going to the chalkboard. His movements and passing are not a winger's. Clearly, he's short on confidence and it shows when he passes the ball back without trying to go forward ala Skrtel at WHL

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2011, 03:55:53 pm »
This will no doubt bring a landslide of hate upon me, but imho I think it's not a coincidence that we've struggled against sides that put up a fight.

In the games where we kept a clean sheet or scored 3 or more goals there was hard working and intelligence at work, and frankly I think we've been missing that. And players who quite clearly pulled their weight last season haven't been playing enough.

Spearing might not be as good, but he works 3 times as hard as Charlie Adam does. Henderson might come good, but his game awareness, positioning and off the ball movement make him a reserves player in comparison to an in-form Maxi Rodriguez or at the risk of a volcanic eruption of shit raining down, an in-form Raul Meireles. Carroll is improving, no doubt and against Wolves he looked lighter in his step, quicker with the ball at his feet and was unlucky not to score, but when it comes to closing down defenders Dirk Kuyt will have chased the defender down, won the ball back in his own half, passed it forward and been on the recieving end of said pass before Carroll picks up momentum. And until the players get a telepathic understanding, playing Suarez, Carroll, Downing, Henderson and Adam who have played together for less than 6 months is, imho asking for unnessacary trouble that can be avoided.
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2011, 04:43:32 pm »
I think any anxiety inevitably stems down to our midfield not being able to control 50 yards of space between the back 4 and what nominally in my eyes seems like a front 4. I can't fault the midfield for that, expecting them to control that amount of space is absolutely ridiculous.
That average position diagram in the 2nd post of this thread is a real eye opener. The simple fact is that Jamie can not drop that deep. I think we are still trying to find that right balance, where there is a fluid motion throughout the team, where the strikers are no more than 30 yards from the backline and they move up and down the pitch as a unit, rather than being stretched as we constantly were against Wolves, as the back four sat close to our 18 yard box even when Andy Carroll was having a header hit the post in the 2nd half.
I'm sure it's something Steve Clarke will have noticed, despite the pitch being 100 yards or so it does not mean our whole team needs to spread over that distance. I know Jamie/Martin are worried that that strikers may get in behind them, but that's why we have 3 rapid full backs (Kelly, Johnson and Enrique) and Martin does not lack pace either.

Still there were a lot of positives, Luis finally finished off a chance and I expect he'll go on a little run now, his interplay with Downing and Carroll was very good at the weekend, one or two occasions where Andy got caught on the backfoot with some neat Suarez through balls, but it was a good solid performance by the big lad and he will have gained confidence from that.

I'm a big fan of Jordan Henderson but I hardly saw him have any interaction in our play, this maybe down to what Vulmea has astutefully observed where it seems he is playing in 3 roles at once. Stewart Downing as always this season, impressed me, him and Jose Enrique must be up there when it comes to the best left wing in the league. Enrique is a beast and Downing is such an intelligent player that even though he is really quick, he does not always need to use that pace unlike say a Walcott.

I won't mention our midfield 2 as everyone's had their say on the two already. I'd like to see us slow down the tempo on occasion, something we could have done when Wolves scored instead we went at a 100mph nearly conceding our end, nearly scoring at their end and back to our end, practically opening out the match when we could have killed the momentum they had just gained. It's all a work in progress though, I hope we get better in front of goal though, quite a few chances once again, we can't be having the opposition keeper being man of the match every bloody week.
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