Author Topic: Roundtable: West Ham v Liverpool 4 November 2017  (Read 5164 times)

Offline BabuYagu

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Roundtable: West Ham v Liverpool 4 November 2017
« on: November 5, 2017, 10:46:08 am »

Top: Expected goals & shot maps. Bottom: Expected goals timeline of the game

I believe it's been two months since we last had a roundtable thread in here? That's something that needs to change. I wanted to talk in more depth about this game simply because we saw something new from Klopp, we saw some players in new positions, we saw Chamberlain finally start in the league, there was a lot to assess really. So lets start with...

Our Shape
Insert Jackie Chan meme here. It feels a bit like Klopp trying to troll pundits at times. They aren't the most knowledgeable creatures at the best of times but when it comes to tactical analysis, they are laughably inept in this country. Firmino's position/role fucks them up all the time. They also hate asymmetry in team shapes too. So against Huddersfield where we effectively had Gomez as a wide center back on the right and Moreno as a left wing back - that fucked them up. This weekend initially it was described as three at the back, given we had the ball most of the time, Gomez stayed back and Moreno pushed up. Then it was a 4-2-3-1 off the ball with Firmino dropping in between Mane & Chamberlain. Then Klopp talked about it being 4-4-2. So what is it?

All of those. People get quite hung up on starting formations for some reason but the problem with them all tends to be symmetry, which our shape will rarely have under Klopp and structure - which we rarely have in attack. Plus our system changes frequently during the game too. Usually subtle differences in midfield, the roles players have, Firmino dropping into midfield to give us a cube in front of defence when under pressure, that sort of stuff. This game there were bigger changes. We did have a back three on the ball with Moreno pushed up for width left, Chamberlain right, Mane narrower. Once ahead we had quite a back four with Gomez & Moreno holding their positions more and not getting ahead of the ball. The one constant in the game though - which is a rarity for us - was central midfield. Similar to the Dortmund side which went through many formations but always maintained the #6 - #8 partnership in there - Can & Gini were the constant two. Unlike those Dortmund sides, Can seemed to have the licence to push forward and carry the ball while Gini held midfield for him. Averaged out over the course of the game though, this is perhaps the closest we have seen to a 4-2-3-1 since Sevilla. Salah clearly lead the line. Chamberlain was the Kuba/Grosskreutz in the side, providing width as a creator in attack. Mane was the hybrid attacker drifting inside to search for goals allowing Moreno to offer the width left. Firmino was the Gotze/Kagawa behind the striker creating space and linking midfield to attack.

Did it work?
Yes - in that we won, and won well. However, I hate results based analysis. The difference between a striker scoring at one end and missing at the other shouldn't be the difference between a good performance and bad performance. Whether we state our tactics worked, or failed. Perhaps the best example of this I have is Manchester City and Manchester United. Both started the season in similar vein racking up the goals. However, when you delve into the expected goals timelines of both teams, it showed that United were racked up the goals against beaten sides but struggling to create from open play when the game was tied. Their breakthroughs coming from set pieces, errors or moments of individual brilliance. Put simply, the players were scoring goals the system was not creating anything. In contrast to City, their system is creating chances galore for everyone on the pitch. Even a weak finisher like Sterling is racking up the goals as it's almost impossible to miss when the system is creating tap ins for you every other game. So lets look purely at the performance and focus on the game up to the 60 minute mark when it became really open and end to end.

So similar to the United games against West Ham, Swansea and the like at the start of the season where they were banging in four goals a game, we effectively created nothing from open play until the game opened up. We capitalized on a mistake by them on their own corner, then scored off a set piece and a moment of individual brilliance from Firmino got us the 3rd goal. So in that sense, this performance concerned me. So breaking it down further, lets look at some individuals.

Mignolet
Our captain for the day, but how did he do? A recurring problem I have with analysing goalkeepers is we measure their performances only by amazing looking saves or very clear mistakes. Everything else in between is grey area that I don't think fans or pundits alike understand well enough to accurately critique. On that basis, how did he do? Well he had very little to actually do. He had 1 shot on target and conceded 1 goal - so in that sense it's not looking good as he made zero saves. Although I would give him credit for his pressure on Lanzini preventing him having an easy tapin for his second. It's not a save because there was no shot on target, but for sure his closing down forced Lanzini to rush his shot over the bar. He also had a moment of almost getting caught in possession too. The worrying this is that he has now conceded 17 goals from 36 shots on target. Only Spurs and Man City goalkeepers have made less saves, however they have only conceeded 7 goals each so are saving a much higher ratio of their shots on target. Long term, he still doesn't feel like the solution for us in goal.

Gomez
I was critical of him on the ball against Huddesfield. He was incredibly wasteful. Today it was his defensive work that worried me. He completely lost Lanzini a few times. Once West Ham realised he could be got at, Arnautovic came on and beat him way too easily out wide to get crosses in. So once again I have to say Joe Gomez #notafullback. But there is no simple solution. TAA isn't ready to play 3 games a week at the highest level. Clyne's injury problems show no signs of going away and Milner just doesn't have the legs to play out there anymore as Son & Aurier showed when they beat him far too easily in the Spurs game.

Moreno
His return as a dependable full back continues. I was looking at his attacking stats pre-Klopp and it is notable how much he has reigned everything in this season. A bad to basics approach if you will. If he can start putting up those attacking numbers (which were the best in the league at the time) again on top of his new found defensive stability, we are looking at having legitimately one of the best full backs in europe. No wonder Spain are picking up the phone again. Well played Albie!

Matip & Klavan
All in all I thought they did pretty well. Their distribution from the back is annoying still at times. Nitpicking though. The fact we didn't see either of them bullied by Carroll is something, although I put that down more to Can than the CB's. Speaking of which...

Can
This game demonstrated clearly to me why in the Premier League, in Klopp's system, you need a big unit in the #6 role. Someone who will compete against the likes of Carroll and Wagner (Hoffenheim). I pointed out Henderson's problem dealing with Wagner, most apparent when he lost the header in the build up to their penalty - but in our system the #6 will have to deal with a lot of long balls &/or clearances into his zone and challenge the target man for them. I was surprised Hoffenheim didn't make more use of that but then they like to keep the ball down at all costs it seems and so only that rushed clearance exposed us there. However if you had the likes of Jorginho, Gini, Milner in there week to week, over time it would cause you some problems. Can stood up to the Carroll threat brilliantly. I still worry he slows down the pace of our buildup play but in reality, as long as he has the right #8 next to him like Bender/Kehl did in Dortmund, then the technical ability of the #6 is the least important thing. They just simply have to read the game well, be disciplined holding their position and be able to dominate their zone in the air. In that sense, I think he was the biggest difference today between a win and not. With a #6 in there that Carroll could bully, I fear that would have been a very different game. If he ends up in Turin, I hope we replace him with the likes of Fabinho, Saul or Weigl. I still think getting that #6 role right is the most important missing part in the side still.

Gini
As mentioned before, he seems to have an important role in our midfield in that he is the most tactically intelligent of the group and plugs the holes others leave, or tries too, better than anybody. In that sense, he makes sense as a #6. Shame he didn't have Can's height and Can didn't have Gini's agility. Can's natural inclination to burst forward means you need a Gini next to him. Someone to plug the gap he leaves. Same as Henderson really. The problem is when you have Can & Henderson together. For me it is no coincidence that the worst midfield performances come with him missing from the side like Spurs this season or Hull away last season. Players who sacrifice their own game in exchange for limiting space for the opponent and maximising space for your own team are missed most when they aren't there.

Mane
This is by far the worst I have seen him play. Yet he still has 2 assists :D He looked off the pace though. He lost a headstart in a foot race to Fernandes. The most interesting thing was how we pressed in a way that minimized his workload off the ball. Chamberlain in particular ran an outrageous amount as he took on a huge zone in terms of pressing while Mane had almost no pressing at all to do. He saved all his energy to run on the ball. In that sense it reminded me a little of watching Ronaldinho at Barca. The pinnacle of a luxury player. The game was all about getting him back to match sharpness, good to see him make it through ~70 minutes. Hope he plays a reasonable amount for Senegal to get match sharpness up, wins, gets a rest for their second game and comes back firing and ready to go. We need him.

Bob Fermeeneeyoh.
Yes I pronounced that as wrong as fuck. Just like every pundit it seems. He's a joy to watch at times. There were a few moments of the sublime from him. He needs to be tucking that shot away though. Although in fairness, he did make it for himself out of nothing. I loved hearing Klopp talk about when he subbed him off he was angry that he hadn't scored. Klopp said "what a performance" and his only reply was "I want to score". Hopefully that fire will see his output creep back up again. But as long as he is creating the space and providing the ammunition for those around him, who scores will be of no concern to Klopp. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLcgozxbOto)

Salah
The Chelsea reject continues to make an absolute mockery of those who doubted him. In my last roundtable OP against Arsenal I mentioned that he had a LOT more goals in him than what we had seen so far. He is great at drifting into those spaces that Firmino leaves and at such pace than once he makes the move, nobody is beating him. As a striker, if you get into scoring positions and are getting 3+ shots off per game, you will score a lot of goals. I predicted he would score even more here without Dzeko centrally wanting to be in the prime goalscoring positions and so far that looks a good shout. Hope he keeps it up.

Chamberlain
Good to see him finally start. I know it's hard to be patient with this one but I did suggest this would likely happen, and it's sticking to my timeframe almost to the day. I looked back over old data on Firmino & Lallana on their running and pressing numbers when Klopp arrived (in an article I haven't posted up yet, but will soon enough). Basically, it looks like it takes players two months to learn the pressing triggers to stop them just running and collapsing our shape with pressing without structure (see the Arsenal City game for what running rather than pressing looks like). FOr most signings, this will be picked up in pre-season, or in Keita's case, he already learned this at Salzburg and Leipzig. Chamberlain has the legs and desire to run, but just hasn't had the system drilled into him yet. So I suggested it could be a couple of months before we saw him starting and perhaps another couple of months still (around Xmas) until he would be starting in the crucial central areas. I thought he was excellent though and the sheer amount of work he is willing to do will certainly keep him at the front of Klopp's thinking. He reminds me a lot of Grosskreutz in that sense for Dortmund. He made himself undropable by doing a lot of the legwork of Gotze and Reus. I saw a lot of that with him and Firmino doing the legwork for Salah to remain primed to counter and to nurse Mane back to health.

So a great result, nice for the goal difference, but our inability to link play, create and recycle the ball with a good tempo before the 60th minute worries me. As with the Europa League final, I don't think we have the right players to play a midfield 2 yet. That should change if we get a new #6 and Keita to partner him. Thankfully Lallana is back soon and I think Lallana, Gini + Henderson (or Can) and our midfield should become the good platform all our attacking play was built on last season once more.

I still worry about Gomez at RB. He struggles when isolated out wide. I noted recently that either a RB mistake or the RB being easily beaten had directly resulted in 5 (now 6) goals against us already this season which is a good measure of how much we are missing Clyne out there.

What about you guys? Was there anything I missed? Was I too harsh on our performance or certain individuals? Not harsh enough? Tell me about it below.
« Last Edit: November 8, 2017, 06:48:43 pm by BabuYagu »
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Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Roundtable: West Ham v Liverpool 4 November 2017
« Reply #1 on: November 6, 2017, 09:13:25 pm »


One last thing to share. I always think the opponents passing maps are interesting to read. Here for example, their most important player in their build up play was Joe Hart.

  • The comparable difficultly they had playing through our left side compared to our right is notable here.
  • They struggled to find Ayew in the game and he had no real impact on the game.
  • In comparison to Lanzini who got on the ball at will and had as many touches as any outfield player of theirs bar Noble.
  • Reid was unable to play the ball forward at all and ended up going back to Hart as much with the ball as any other option.
  • Kouyate rarely needed to use Fernandes or Reid but was finding good angles to get the ball to Noble & Obiang instead.
  • On the opposite side Ogbonna -> Cresswell -> Lanzini was the clear path with the ball down our right.

You can see here where our pressing worked, where it didn't and where West Ham found some success during the game.

I really like Lanzini as a player. In terms of penetration, he could be a future Lallana replacement in my eyes. I also thought Obiang was a useful player for them, although that could be my Sampdoria bias showing a little.
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Offline Spanish Al

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Re: Roundtable: West Ham v Liverpool 4 November 2017
« Reply #2 on: November 7, 2017, 12:21:38 pm »
Cheers for the effort there Yagu, good read.

I'll try and write a lot more if I find the time but just one thing I want to mention before this goes over to the main board; I too thought Gomez was very wasteful vs Huddersfield ( I actually went to the game for the first time in a long fucking time) but was astounded to see he had a 91% pass completion rate for that game. I think he misplaced maybe 2 passes, they were just two dreadful passes when we were building up momentum so that is why they stuck out in my mind. Completely agree he is not the answer at full back as I think he is very naive defensively but all this time at full back will help him become the top class centre half he has the potential to be. Would like to see Trent a bit more though, particularly against sides that will sit very deep.
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Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Roundtable: West Ham v Liverpool 4 November 2017
« Reply #3 on: November 7, 2017, 12:34:50 pm »
Cheers for the effort there Yagu, good read.

I'll try and write a lot more if I find the time but just one thing I want to mention before this goes over to the main board; I too thought Gomez was very wasteful vs Huddersfield ( I actually went to the game for the first time in a long fucking time) but was astounded to see he had a 91% pass completion rate for that game. I think he misplaced maybe 2 passes, they were just two dreadful passes when we were building up momentum so that is why they stuck out in my mind. Completely agree he is not the answer at full back as I think he is very naive defensively but all this time at full back will help him become the top class centre half he has the potential to be. Would like to see Trent a bit more though, particularly against sides that will sit very deep.
Cheers for that Al. I haven't looked at the stats of specific games due to being busy. It reinforces the idea that how we view the game means we register very little. We basically remember big moments - things that make us feel something and write off the 91% (in this case) that was just filler.

There were a couple of moments I remember Gomez having space in front of him to step into then he would open up an angle into the front 3 but instead turned and played a simple ball back or sideways to some groans as well as the two passes were he just gave it right to Huddersfield in good moments. Klavan and Matip are better at stepping into those spaces when they open up. Sakho was great at it.
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Offline macnianios

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Re: Roundtable: West Ham v Liverpool 4 November 2017
« Reply #4 on: November 8, 2017, 06:39:19 pm »
i really didn't like the perfomance until the third goal. We didn't create nothing until Ox's goal. The team was cut in two pieces, 6 players defending and 4 players attacking, no connection. There was some much space between our medfieldrs and attackers.  It was very hard to watch from my point of view.

I don't blame the players, i think the system ,4-2-3-1 4-4-2 4-2-4  4-2-3-1 ? whaterever that was, really didn't help.
The trained for only one day , so i can see why we played so badly on buliding smth usefull upfront.

I think Can doesn't have the ability to be a playmaker and as Badu pointed Gini is doing other stuff at the field. 
We really need a passer somewhere. Can, Ox, Mane ,Salah are going to run with the ball or run in space to receive the ball.
Firminho can pass but i don't think its optimal for him and the system to run all the way down at the center of the field to receive the ball and then run all the way up at the opposition box and make a pass at Ox, how many times he can do that in a game 1-2?
I don't know if that system will be affective in the long run, but i don't feel ok watching liverpool playing like that against teams who are not that good.

But if our attackers in such form and create goals from nowhere maybe it's a solution until all/most players are fit (lallana, hendo, mane, coutinho)

----
Great analysis Badu :)
----
English isn’t my first language, so please excuse any mistakes.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Roundtable: West Ham v Liverpool 4 November 2017
« Reply #5 on: November 8, 2017, 11:56:33 pm »
Great analysis Babu. Though it pains me to say it because I always want us to be great and bring home the bacon I was delighted to read how your detailed analysis revealed that collectively we really didn't play that well [certainly for the opening hour or so] despite the very welcome goals return and three vital points to provide a nice base for the rest of the season to come. The reason for me saying that is my own bemusement at the bulk of the posts in the main thread which tended to lavish what I felt to be unmerited praise.

There were several others who shared my own disquiet at our performance level. However, for the most part, most seemed chuffed at how we'd performed. In the end one of the posters who shared my own misgivings [Stoj] seemed to nail it for me when he termed the victory a "hefty result without too much drama" which I think might explain why so many were so satisfied with what took place - and I can certainly see why so many including seemingly Kloppie himself judging by his post match demeanour adopted such an interpretation.

I've copied out my three posts in the main thread which convey a bit more clearly what I was driving at.

Post one: Just skipping through  the thread it's pretty apparent I must have watched an entirely different game to everybody else on here. And yet when all is said and done I guess that all that matters is it's 4 goals away from home, 3 very vital away points, a return from injury for Sadio, the continuation of an amazing goalscoring run for Momo and a fantastic individual display from Bobby F. Plus I don't ever wish to be a party pooper. So by all means all youse guys do carry on believing everything in the garden performance wise was rosy as I'm pretty sure when we're fully back to full strength it will be and our individual and collective performance levels will match the results of such a 1-4 victory

Post two: Yeah - exactly how I saw it [namely we didn't play particularly well]. And I include the Spurs game in that 'played better' context - ridiculous costly mistakes excepted of course. Perhaps me and thee have got it wrong though. maybe we were better than what we thought we saw. Fucked if i'm watching it again though. So it's either that [we're mistaken] or maybe it's an elephant in the thread for most to use the terms 'sloppy' and 'poor' when we win 4-1 away from home and by the end of the game could have made it 8 or 9 - 1. Also I guess it doesn't matter provided we push on from this nice confidence restored platform of 10 goals and 3 wins from 3 games.

Post three: Got to thank you Stoj for unravelling the mystery of what I think several of us on here feel to be a somewhat bizarre thread [namely Stoj's comment that "it was a hefty result without too much drama"]. Certainly I for one haven't been able to get my head around all the untempered praise until your comment. At which point the penny dropped. I guess the thing must be that most on here aren't really that arsed about sloppiness as long as it doesn't lead to any real danger, which apart from two isolated occasions other than their goal was exactly what happened. I suppose it's a fair enough interpretation if that's your overriding priority and, judging from his own post-match demeanour, I don't think there's any doubt that the absence of any real threat placed Kloppie firmly in the same camp as most on here. Result apart, not for me though I'm afraid Kloppie lad. Then again I'm sure it's miles away from what constitutes our manager's ambition, both short term and long term.

So once again Babu cheers for confirming myself and a few others might not be losing our grip on reality!!!

 ;D
« Last Edit: November 9, 2017, 12:00:31 am by Timbo's Goals »

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Roundtable: West Ham v Liverpool 4 November 2017
« Reply #6 on: November 9, 2017, 12:25:50 am »



Cheers mate

Football is a results based business more than any other. Fans, by and large, don't seem to give a shit as long as they win. Mourinho can get away with serving up turgid shit on a stick football and taking the most expensively assembled team in football to a 6th place finish because he won a league cup and a europa league in which he didn't face a decent side in either. But it doesn't matter. There will be no caveats in the history books. The won. Period.

Thus we see a lot of hindsight based analysis of their season and performances that completely goes against what I saw with my own eyes at the time and the mountain of data I have available. The same happened early this season. I would watch them open a side up with a set piece, mistake or something - then watch their opponent collapse the last 10 minutes and ship 3 more. Not really an emphatic 4-0. The scoreline just glossed over the fact that they look a side that lacked needle players who could pick apart a decent side the way a Pep side can.

The very same thing happens with us too. A player's correct position to prevent a goal is where the ball went. We were shite against Burnley because it was 1-1. Last season we were better because we won. Results are simple to analyse. They are definitive. You can pin your hat on them and can't be wrong. Calling a performance poor when you win 4-1 though is risky business. Sticking our neck out.

But I agree. I have to judge performances because they are the measuring stick of what your side is capable of. That will tell you how far you can go. The form of your players. Players like Firmino, Salah & Mane won't miss chances forever. So when you are battering sides creating 3-5 clear chances per game and scoring 0-1 of them, the results will be poor but there is reason to be optimistic because results will turn when performance levels are good.

Here I thought we had the opposite. Klopp said himself, the most important thing in football is creating chances and in the first 60 minutes where there was a competitive game and West Ham looked like an organised football team - we created little to nothing. It would worry me but knowing that Mane is gaining fitness, Coutinho & Lallana to come in and in Clyne/TAA we will have a more incisive player offering width on the right, I'm not worried about it. Doesn't change the fact for me, this performance was 60 minutes of watching a greyhound chasing the lure in a circle followed by 30 minutes of him tearing it to pieces. Or 10 round of boxers clinching followed by 2 rounds of one taking one haymaker after another to the face. The flurry of action at the end can distract from the fact it was mostly.... meh.
« Last Edit: November 9, 2017, 12:29:33 am by BabuYagu »
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Offline Xabier Alonso Olano

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Re: Roundtable: West Ham v Liverpool 4 November 2017
« Reply #7 on: November 9, 2017, 06:07:23 am »
Some great posts. Just to add my few thoughts:

It really was great to see a new shape, especially at the beginning of an international break, it at least gives us plenty to look at and discuss until the proper footie returns. The thing I liked about the change the most wasn't actually to do with winning or the performance, but instead that it illustrated Klopp's pragmatism so well. It could have been easy to shoehorn Milly or Chamberlain into a midfield 3, but the change to 442 really did utilise what we had available and allowed a lot of players to demonstrate skills they are naturally good at. Also, I think a new shape even if only briefly worked on can be great for teams. It's a bit like a new challenge for them all to figure out, and work at what they can bring to the new shape. In the same way as any job in any field I guess, a change of challenges/tasks to a pretty set routine can sometimes really give a jolt to a team, renewed focus and makes people really think. It's safe to say the team responded well even against limited opposition for 70 minutes.

I agree with Babu about how fluid formations are, and how asymmetrical we can be at times. The half space has become so important since the seemingly league wide switch to 343 and variants, it fascinates me how formations are like trends, adopted and adapted by others once one team has had success with it. As PoP always used to say, it's never so much about formations but about the space it encourages you to attack and defend. The 442 cheated the half space between where a typical winger would play and where Mane/Chamberlain actually did play, high up, morphing into a 424 or 334 when dominating territorial possession, with the front four pinned onto the last line of the Hammers defence. It worked both offensively and defensively on the whole, mainly due to the work rate of Mane and Chamberlain in working back and forward frequently when it was required.

The other space it left was the shift horizontally of the back 4/3. To be fair I thought on the whole Moreno and Gomez did well positionally and reading where to be and when, protecting the right areas of space in and out of possession. There were a few instances I actually thought both could have been a little bit better, especially Gomez in and out of possession. Just before their goal (I think?) he played a cautious pass, and dropped back in when he probably should have went and attacked the space with a give and go. It allowed the press leading to west ham possession when an offensive mindset might have produced a better result. I accept that at 2 nil it can be easier to pass and drop, as opposed to still looking to play forward, even if it's never/rarely into the final third but being proactive and offensive really is sometimes the best form of defence. Protect the ball and position but also still look to attack the space when its required. One point I will make about Gomez is that he is a lovely passer of the ball. It was the first thing I noticed on his very first game for us, sharp crisp passing and finds some real nice angles and lines of passing into the midfield, wide men or Firmino. Hes in a good way at the minute, and still ridiculously young, which makes it easier to forgive his few mistakes in the game, namely the goal, which was a little unfortunate for him, just got caught by the flight and didn't react to it like he usually does. In a week where we win 3 games by 10-1 it's small change, an afterthought.

Set pieces turn me on as much as they do Tony Pulis. This is a fact. Let it be known... But seriously, it's nice to have a couple goals from corners over the week, I'm praying it continues as set pieces are still one of the best ways to break a low block. Nice finish from Matip, I wish he was as composed with his heading as there is a few more goals in him I reckon if he could put it together. Never belittle any goal, every single goal is created, a set piece goal is a chance created, and has the same value as a goal from open play, a counter from deep, a counter higher up the pitch, a 10+ passing move, a penalty. Did the system help create the first 2 goals? Possibly not, but it didn't do anything to prevent them either. I thought we created enough to win by more, and had it not been for us playing with the handbrake on slightly in certain positions and phases of play, I think we really could have ripped into them. I loved the variety of our goals personally, I'd rather see us score 4 different types of goals rather than 4 goals of individual brilliance or 4 brilliant team goals. 

Thought Wijnaldum was excellent. Especially second half. It actually suited him playing in the 2, less time spent looking for space between the lines, more spent recycling the ball. Would it work against the very best teams? Maybe, maybe not. As I said earlier it was a pretty pragmatic formation, with no Henderson, Coutinho or Lallana and Chamberlain not up to speed with the requirements of playing in our 3. You add Coutinho and Lallana back into the squad and it immediately lends to us reverting back to 433 you would assume. I will say that I thought it could have been a formation that could have suited Sturridge and Solanke even as a more rigid striking partnership if they were paired together. Could have been a good shape for the LC with hindsight. I still think both could do with playing as a 2 rather than as a 1 or a 3, nothing to really base this thesis on admittedly but just a suspicion. Especially Sturridge.

Man of the Match: Firmino. Excellent from start to finish, the assist for the third goal was sublime. The workrate was sensational and some of the mans first touches were boardline pornographic. Shame he didn't take his chance because he deserved a goal for his performance.

Also on the point of it being a little underwhelming for some, I really would just put it down us playing with the handbrake on a little. With a new system that is still surely to be expected, and to be fair, it might not have been our very best performance but I thought it was still the best performance of the week. We won the first half 2-0 and the second 2-1, and it could have been any amount had we really punished them in the last 20 minutes. It took us a while to get going but thought we dominated and controlled the game after the first 20. As we strive for balance something has to give, I'd settle for a smaller volume of chances if the trade off is a greater quality of chance plus a stiffer defensive shape and better protection for the backline.

Personally thought it had lots of the characteristics of an excellent performance, brought out some great individual performances, and it reflected in the collective. Was our 'creative play' at it's very best? In the way you guys mean probably not but I thought it was our most mature away performance of the season by a long stretch. Aided by the fact we scored at great times.

« Last Edit: November 9, 2017, 06:33:45 am by Xabier Alonso Olano »

Offline redk84

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Re: Roundtable: West Ham v Liverpool 4 November 2017
« Reply #8 on: November 9, 2017, 10:02:09 am »
I think it's fair enough to be happy with our professional display against West Ham.
We've walked away from a few games this season where the burning frustration was that the result did not match our superior performance.

So yes I'm proud of the team that may not have been at their fluent best, but took their chances and importantly won battles around the pitch. We didn't let West Ham in a lot of the time and our players deserve credit....

I'll take this disappointing performance over a disappointing result anyday  :)

But obviously the better performances tend to produce the better results overall.....this last week has just been a nice reversal of fortunes for once

P.S thanks for the effort in the OP...great analysis
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Re: Roundtable: West Ham v Liverpool 4 November 2017
« Reply #9 on: November 9, 2017, 10:31:29 pm »
I think it's fair enough to be happy with our professional display against West Ham.
We've walked away from a few games this season where the burning frustration was that the result did not match our superior performance.

So yes I'm proud of the team that may not have been at their fluent best, but took their chances and importantly won battles around the pitch. We didn't let West Ham in a lot of the time and our players deserve credit....

I'll take this disappointing performance over a disappointing result anyday  :)

But obviously the better performances tend to produce the better results overall.....this last week has just been a nice reversal of fortunes for once

P.S thanks for the effort in the OP...great analysis

Yeah, I agree with this. I think we used this game as an opportunity to try something different and it worked pretty well. We wanted to be more defensively sound and we were. There was one deflected pass that Ayew wasn't good enough to make the most of, and the goal when Gomez inexplicable dodged the ball. Other than that? Nothing really.

It was very noticeable how disciplined we were throughout - Can and Gini both appeared much less often in the opponent's goalbox than our central midfielders normally do, and Moreno and (especially) Gomez were much less attacking than usual too.

Instead, the rest of the team trusted the front 4 to create enough opportunities to win the game. Perhaps our goals didn't have a high xG, but when you put good players against weaker ones you tend to get moments where those good players do something that will be beyond what the weaker players can cope with. Firmino setting up our 3rd goal, for instance. And I'm sure I wasn't the only one who thought "We're in here!" when Salah passed to Mane deep in our own half.

The obvious question to be asked then is can we manage this against a more difficult opponent than West Ham? I understand we only had a day or two to train for this match, so I'm confident that if we choose to we will be able to build on that and also manage this system against a tougher opponent.

However I expect that we will often choose not to use this more defensive set-up, and just have it as an option. We'll see, I guess. Roll on Southampton.

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Re: Roundtable: West Ham v Liverpool 4 November 2017
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2017, 04:42:07 am »
I think it's fair enough to be happy with our professional display against West Ham.
We've walked away from a few games this season where the burning frustration was that the result did not match our superior performance.

So yes I'm proud of the team that may not have been at their fluent best, but took their chances and importantly won battles around the pitch. We didn't let West Ham in a lot of the time and our players deserve credit....

I'll take this disappointing performance over a disappointing result anyday  :)

But obviously the better performances tend to produce the better results overall.....this last week has just been a nice reversal of fortunes for once

P.S thanks for the effort in the OP...great analysis

I think that's spot on. I don't know if I'd call it a disappointing performance. It just felt like we didn't get out of second gear but also, we never needed to. I think it was a really professional performance and if West Ham had posed more of a threat we would've had more in our locker, as demonstrated by the third goal (the action and the timing of it).

As others have discussed elsewhere, I wonder if this, Maribor and the Huddersfield game demonstrate a change in approach for these types of opponents. It's been a lot more pragmatic. I don't think anyone would say we've been electrifying in any of those games and yet we've taken 9 points from 9, scored 10 and conceded 1. Positive stuff.
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Re: Roundtable: West Ham v Liverpool 4 November 2017
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2017, 07:10:29 am »
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Re: Roundtable: West Ham v Liverpool 4 November 2017
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2017, 01:02:39 pm »
Cheers Babu,

I’m really glad somebody has taken up the mantle for what I believe to be one of the best threads in RAWK (#we need more roundtable), some very interesting points on what most of us saw as a paradoxical game. I’m not the most eloquent of writers but I’ll try my best to add to it, apologies in advance if I ramble on too much...

Like most of us, no doubt, I approached this game believing that a good result could put us in a great position going forward. What with 4 of our competitors playing each other we knew that this was a great opportunity to close the gap on 2nd, never mind 4th. On top of that, with the international break looming, it meant that not only would we have a near enough full squad when we next play (bar a few absentees), we would also have a period of grace where Klopp could regroup and retrain with what appeared to be a larger than normal contingent of players.

So with that in mind I can understand the current undercurrent that swept through our fans after this game. This game was all about the result, the performance - for a lot of us - wasn’t as important as it usually can be. After this game we’re all expecting, no…we’re all hoping that we can brush aside these last few months and start anew and hopefully hit the rest of the season just like we started the last one.

Our tactics

In the last few games, we’ve been setting up with a more traditional back four than we usually employ, our fullbacks have been much more disciplined and restrained. To illustrate this somewhat, below is the average position map for the last 2 games. If you consider the Y-axis there isn’t much distance between the fullbacks and the centre backs. 


 
This is in stark contrast to the previous games, but don’t take my word for it, check it for yourselves:


 
It’s quite obvious once you see it. The thing is I’m not quite sure if this was particularly by design. For the first 20 mins of the West Ham game, our defence did not look anything at all like the average position map suggests. Moreno was actually further forward during that period making fans and pundits alike suspect we were playing with 3 centrebacks with Gomez tucked in (in retrospect it was quite funny listening to them trying to figure out what the hell was going on but I was just as confused as they were at the time). It was only after we scored the 2nd goal that we decided to sit back and consolidate our advantage.
 
Up until the first goal we were struggling with this 4-4-2 formation. In part this was due to our lack of experience with it, but a lot of it had to do with West Ham putting pressure on us and overloading key areas. They were able to dominate the midfield and whenever we got through it they were quite quick to drop back and form a 5 man defensive wall quite quickly. In truth this wasn’t one of our prettiest games, and I have to say that West Ham were much the better team until we scored. If I have to be honest I'd say they also were the better team in the 2nd half as well. Those 2 early goals really helped settle us down and knock the wind out of them (both fans and players alike).

The introduction of a 2 man dm was also a nice touch and helped add an extra level of defensive solidity to this particular game. This came in particularly handy during this early period as both Gini and Can where able to help support our fullbacks, a key attacking area in the first half by West Ham. Gomez especially, was in dire need of some help and both Gini and Oxlade were there to help time and time again. In the 2nd half, when Carroll came on, it meant that Can could concentrate on the aerial attacks and Gini could help mop up as well as disrupting the Hammers incessant and desperate attacks. He was also trying to sensibly slow down the frenetic tempo of the 2nd half when it was most needed (more on those two later).

I think, in some ways, we were quite fortunate to score from 2 set pieces so early, especially in such a short period of time. I can’t help but wonder how it would have panned out if we hadn’t.  It’s about bloody time we had some fortune on that front.


Confluence or Coincidence?

I was reminded of two things as each of the first two goals were scored. The first was this video that was released just prior to the game that Babu put up:
https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=329050.msg15687251#msg15687251

For those of you who can’t be bothered to watch it all, Lucas explains how we set up in three zones when we zonal mark, the first zone/set of players are the zonal markers, the 2nd zone are players that run to disrupt the opposition players and the zone 3 players (which consists of just 2 players) are there to pressure the 2nd ball ‘or in the best possible scenario’ start a counter attack’.

I remember thinking at the time that if a team overcommits and, if the ball falls kindly to us, then with Salah and Mane we have the potential to turn these defensive situations into a potent offensive scenario. The thing is we don’t see it happen often enough... Within 24 hours of the video being posted, it happened.

The 2nd thing that crossed my mind was an article I read the week before (can’t remember where exactly) but they highlighted that Matip’s last goal for us was almost a year ago (29 October 2016 to be exact) and that he was due one soon... A week later, it happened.

I only hope that we don’t have to wait too long for either of these things to happen again. In my opinion it should be happening a lot more frequently.


Special Mentions

Salah may have got himself a brace but the Manager was raving about Firmino after the game and rightly so. This guy was absolutely amazing on Saturday. Not only did he produce moments of sheer quality which have already been covered elsewhere but his work rate was absolutely phenomenal. He made the most tackles in the game, came joint 1st (with Gini) in tackles won, was involved in more duels than anyone, won the most duels, and spent more time both sprinting and running (as a percentage of time – not distance) than any other Liverpool player on the night. He was popping up everywhere generally running his socks off like he was on some personal crusade. Forget the back three/four, the whole west Ham team must have been pissed off with him by the end of the game such was the extent of his performance.  For a striker to put in this level of performance is really unbelievable and with numbers such as these you can see why he’d be first name on the team sheet in Klopp’s eyes. Oxlade as well was mightily impressive in this respect, the amount of selfless tracking that I saw from these two must have made Klopp giddy with delight.

Another mention goes out to our DM’s, Can took a couple of nasty knocks for the team and helped the defence out a hell of lot aerially. He was involved in 6 aerial duels, to put this into context that’s the same amount as the rest of the defence combined. He also, surprisingly ran the 2nd most (Salah came first) which is quite ironic considering I thought he’s been quite lazy recently. Gini made 4 interceptions in that game according to the stats (only 3 other Liverpool players managed interceptions on the night and they all registered 1 – Can, Oxlade, Moreno).

Bilic

One last comment to wrap things off. When our little Egyptian scored his second goal that resulted in the ensuing exodus of claret fans, I just knew that Bilic’s days were numbered. I guess it was inevitable but it’s a shame! Ever since he started his managerial career I’ve quite liked the guy. He’s comes across as a genuine and humble person and his stint at Croatia and his first few years at West Ham showed the signs of a good manager in there somewhere. I hope he does well wherever he ends up.

Offline the 92A

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Re: Roundtable: West Ham v Liverpool 4 November 2017
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2017, 01:19:56 pm »
It used to wind me up that my Dad used to always decide whether we played well by the result. Loved him but never sat right, because it seemed that that was the measure that everyone used from the Jimmy Hills to the David Coleman's and it only told you about the result not what was going on and I was too concerned with Shankly building his new team and was far more interested in how that was going rather than just results, especially when they got it wrong at times and never uncovered what was going on below the surface. A good result would wipe out 75 mins of turgid play and conversely when a team played well they were shite if they conceded unlucky goals.

It's a result business, now more than ever and the things that annoyed me as a kid are a hundred times stronger, results rule. All of us are happy after a 1-4 win but it was disjointed, nobody can seriously say things clicked and it's not surprising after the reaction to this season and especially after the Spurs game.

If you read the papers Klopp is borderline incompetent and couldn't organise a defence to save his life so no problem with him tinkering with the balance adjusting to get it right. Against Huddersfield and West Ham when we are going forward we seem to have gone back to the old Liverpool 'fullbacks on a rope', if one goes forward the other stays back with the centrebacks forming in effect a three, while if we are being attacked both come back to a four and in this game two midfielders protecting the centrebacks. Looked a bit disjointed in this game and at times there were big gaps between defence and attack.

But to me this was teething problems, for me big question is, is this a temporary thing to build up confidence or is this how Klopp see's us playing longterm or at least until he gets another centreback and sorts the midfield out to provide better cover for the centrebacks. Maybe he feels that with the players we have we need to protect the centrebacks more and what we have witnessed is the teething troubles of getting it right.
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Re: Roundtable: West Ham v Liverpool 4 November 2017
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2017, 02:01:43 pm »
Thanks BabuYagu for some very interesting and informative analysis.

I'll nail my colours to the cross........I am not a big fan of figures and analysis (that's just the way I roll).

I'll discuss one of your quotes:
"I hate results based analysis. The difference between a striker scoring at one end and missing at the other shouldn't be the difference between a good performance and bad performance."

Well I disagree a bit. It is all to do with results over a period of time. Yes the analysis may predict the future but if you aren't getting results then something is wrong.
For example, I used to play CF, and I wasn't that worried about being beaten by a defender when I was all alone. Even if I beat him then I'd have another one to beat etc. Occasionally I'd beat several and score but that was once in a blue moon. What was important to me was winning the header or beating a player when the chances of scoring were high. I'd rather win one header in the 6 yard box than 10 in the centre circle.

Don't get me wrong, I tried to win every ball but when I sensed an opportunity to score then I'd focus all my effort on scoring. You get a couple of those per game and it makes all the difference in the world if you score. I was pretty average in general play but when I was one-on-one then I was pretty decent (ok I was lousy but compared to others at my level then I could score).

So my stats would be just average and I'd win what I was expected to win in general play but inside the area I was much better. Stats cannot tell you if a player is in the correct position or if he wins the key battles at the key moments.

I expect all of our players to have decent stats but the thing that sets a great player out is that they are just that little bit better or quicker when it really matters. The good strikers score more goals; they can have a bad game but if they score two goals then it's been a good game. So we all know when a player messes up when he shouldn't or when a player turns a half-chance into a goal or saves a "certain goal". I just don't see stats telling you what your gut tells you.

Some players are stat based in that they travel the ground, make lots of tackles and make lots of passes. However, for me, the good player lights up the game with one or two moments that aren't reflected in stats.

But maybe I'm wrong. Stats take a lot of effort and are scientific......gut feel is more of an art. I don't use stats to analyse a good painting.

That's not a negative comment against you btw as I really appreciate what you are doing.
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