Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread

[Fromola]

You got it. Someone else pointed out that he's more or less Adam Morgan. His ceiling is probably the Championship - and it seems several that watch the youth have said this previously. It looks nice to bang in a lot of goals - but there is no top level attribute that he has.

The crazier part - he should have appreciated being taken on the tour of America and being involved almost all preseason - but instead it seemed to make him think he was already in the first team. Weird.

There's no reason why he should be in the first team mix anyway. He can't have signed for the club last year and thought well within a year i'll be playing for the first team. If you're going to make the City or Liverpool team at 18 then you've got to be near enough a Steven Gerrard or at least a Trent or a Foden.

He should have either stuck it out with the under 23s this season or gone out on loan to either a League One club and hoped you'd get a chance (Morgan tried that and never got the game time) or done what the likes of Mount did and gone on loan to a team in Holland or somewhere of a similar culture where he might get a chance. A season in Serie A and he won't be happy when he's not playing much, if at all, can't speak a word of Italian and has a limited support network. There's not many 18 year old strikers getting a regular game in the top leagues.

There is a bit of a history of some of these local lads that play for the youth team having delusions of grandeur. I know of a few who became very embittered when they left the club for not getting a chance in the first team when all these lads are either playing part time now or in EFL. An example of a sensible lad with a good head on his shoulders was Connor Coady. He gave it a go to make the first team, did get some minutes but then got to the point where he wanted first team football so dropped down to the EFL (without burning his bridges here) and now he's a good solid Premier League player linked with an England call up. He had the right attitude. The other alternative is to stick around and wait for your chance like Spearing who ended up playing 50+ games for the club. That's not realistic but Duncan has tried to run before he can walk and it's only going to lead to further disappointment.

[CraigDS]

I had completely forgotten he is Gerrard's cousin! Very weird how quickly things unraveled considering he is a local lad, boyhood fan, is related to perhaps our greatest ever player, and turned down more money at City and sat out for some time to join us.
It can't be just about not getting enough minutes, right? If that is the case, then he, or more likely his agent, is a grade A bellend. Although, how much would the agent get in a 2m deal anyway? Surely, he would have gained much more by letting him stay for a couple of seasons at least and go for a Solanke level deal.

The agent is probably thinking if he breaks through with us he gets little. However a move to Italy, then one again in a few years back to the UK, then maybe some more after that, gets him plenty more.

[MrGrumpy]

There's no reason why he should be in the first team mix anyway. He can't have signed for the club last year and thought well within a year i'll be playing for the first team. If you're going to make the City or Liverpool team at 18 then you've got to be near enough a Steven Gerrard or at least a Trent or a Foden.

He should have either stuck it out with the under 23s this season or gone out on loan to either a League One club and hoped you'd get a chance (Morgan tried that and never got the game time) or done what the likes of Mount did and gone on loan to a team in Holland or somewhere of a similar culture where he might get a chance. A season in Serie A and he won't be happy when he's not playing much, if at all, can't speak a word of Italian and has a limited support network. There's not many 18 year old strikers getting a regular game in the top leagues.

There is a bit of a history of some of these local lads that play for the youth team having delusions of grandeur. I know of a few who became very embittered when they left the club for not getting a chance in the first team when all these lads are either playing part time now or in EFL. An example of a sensible lad with a good head on his shoulders was Connor Coady. He gave it a go to make the first team, did get some minutes but then got to the point where he wanted first team football so dropped down to the EFL (without burning his bridges here) and now he's a good solid Premier League player linked with an England call up. He had the right attitude. The other alternative is to stick around and wait for your chance like Spearing who ended up playing 50+ games for the club. That's not realistic but Duncan has tried to run before he can walk and it's only going to lead to further disappointment.

Great post.

[jillcwhomever]

This is interesting from Dominic King, shows a bit more of what went on with Bobby in the pre-season tour and why LFC decided he was not up first team football yet.

Bobby Duncan had to improve to make Liverpool team - it is a sad exit https://mol.im/a/7419809 via @MailSport

[Chris~]

When you're starting a piece by feeling the need to clarify that your're not trying to make an 18 year old look bad, maybe don't run the piece.

[Eeyore]

I am not sure what is less surprising everything getting sorted out when the Duncan offer was upped or the usual suspects in King and Pearce trotting out the party line. The bottom line is that will have brought in £47m this window if the Kent and Duncan deals go through and spent £4m on VDB and whatever Elliot costs at a tribunal.

[Fromola]

This is interesting from Dominic King, shows a bit more of what went on with Bobby in the pre-season tour and why LFC decided he was not up first team football yet.

Bobby Duncan had to improve to make Liverpool team - it is a sad exit https://mol.im/a/7419809 via @MailSport

You don't, however, need to be brain of Britain to work out that people around Duncan have been telling him he should be at a higher level than Liverpool's Under 23s and that the club have handled him badly, standing in the way of his dreams.

The club haven't done anything wrong. The lad was miles away from being ready for our first team and Fiorentina (as per norm in Italy) tried to take the piss with their initial offer and we held firm, as is our right with a contracted player.

[CraigDS]

When you're starting a piece by feeling the need to clarify that your're not trying to make an 18 year old look bad, maybe don't run the piece.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the article, if an accurate summary of what he saw. I image he put that line because there are plenty of idiots who will have a pop, as is the likes of Twitter, for writing such a thing.

[jillcwhomever]

I am not sure what is less surprising everything getting sorted out when the Duncan offer was upped or the usual suspects in King and Pearce trotting out the party line. The bottom line is that will have brought in £47m this window if the Kent and Duncan deals go through and spent £4m on VDB and whatever Elliot costs at a tribunal.

The club have every right to make their opinion clear in the circumstances. It was Duncan's agent who decided to blow this all over social media.

[jillcwhomever]

When you're starting a piece by feeling the need to clarify that your're not trying to make an 18 year old look bad, maybe don't run the piece.

There is nothing wrong with the article, he is pointing out that its the agent who is badly advising Duncan, if you read it you'd understand that.

[dakid]

Nope. Look at the progressions of players from all countries in Youth World Cups. Most are washed up before they are 21. It's almost better to be a late bloomer.

Bit if you are getting selected for Youth World Cups you are getting selected for your country. My point is if you are considered a great talent, one of the best for your age group, you get picked by your national team at whatever age nothing to do with the long run.

[Fromola]

The club have every right to make their opinion clear in the circumstances. It was Duncan's agent who decided to blow this all over social media.

It's good media management. We don't want a public slanging match with his agent and nor do we want his agent to set the agenda and call us bullies and all the rest of it, so surely briefing the likes of Pearce to get our side across is what we should be doing.

It's no longer amateur hour with Ayre et al. We know what we're doing on the PR front now. The public storm is down to a very unprofessional agent.

[sminp]

The club haven't done anything wrong. The lad was miles away from being ready for our first team and Fiorentina (as per norm in Italy) tried to take the piss with their initial offer and we held firm, as is our right with a contracted player.

He doesn’t say the club has done anything wrong, he says that the agent has been telling Duncan that the club have been treating him badly.

[El Lobo]

I am not sure what is less surprising everything getting sorted out when the Duncan offer was upped or the usual suspects in King and Pearce trotting out the party line. The bottom line is that will have brought in £47m this window if the Kent and Duncan deals go through and spent £4m on VDB and whatever Elliot costs at a tribunal.

Settle in folks

[Fromola]

He doesn’t say the club has done anything wrong, he says that the agent has been telling Duncan that the club have been treating him badly.

I know but even as an argument from his agent it holds no water. The club playing hardline with a pisstake offer from a Serie A club seems to be our sin in this. It's the equivalent of Lovren's agent coming out and kicking off because we wouldn't let him go to Roma on loan.

[Eeyore]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the article, if an accurate summary of what he saw. I image he put that line because there are plenty of idiots who will have a pop, as is the likes of Twitter, for writing such a thing.

An accurate summary of what he saw.

Given that King basically makes a living from writing stories that are based on getting inside information from the Club do you think he is unbiased or like myself do you think there is a massive conflict of interests at play here. The likes of Pearce and King are basically unofficial PR reps for the Club. 

[El Lobo]

An accurate summary of what he saw.

Given that King basically makes a living from writing stories that are based on getting inside information from the Club do you think he is unbiased or like myself do you think there is a massive conflict of interests at play here. The likes of Pearce and King are basically unofficial PR reps for the Club.

Have you seen anything of Bobby Duncan which would make you think that story is unlikely...?

[Fromola]

An accurate summary of what he saw.

Given that King basically makes a living from writing stories that are based on getting inside information from the Club do you think he is unbiased or like myself do you think there is a massive conflict of interests at play here. The likes of Pearce and King are basically unofficial PR reps for the Club.

Well obviously the agent has given his side and the club via favoured journos have given theirs. Weighing up the the two, do you believe the club have done wrong by the player, or the agent has completely overreacted and made a public fool of himself and his client?

The club have a right to put their side across, given the scale of the allegations made.

[Chris~]

There is nothing wrong with the article, he is pointing out that its the agent who is badly advising Duncan, if you read it you'd understand that.

It's a nothing story about how duncan missed 3 chances in preseason and got clattered by milner. Why does anybody really need to know that, its the sort of story you get whenever a player or manager leaves under poor circumstances. Then mentions how he isn't good enough and can't get in the England youth sides now, and that is why he should stay? I mean that really is why he needs to leave. His long term future wasn't here, most people dont think he'll be good enough to be here, so why stay?

When you work for a paper that has a history of writing hit pieces on young players and been called out by an England Intenrational for it's racial element you probably do get told to put disclaimers in articles.

[jillcwhomever]

An accurate summary of what he saw.

Given that King basically makes a living from writing stories that are based on getting inside information from the Club do you think he is unbiased or like myself do you think there is a massive conflict of interests at play here. The likes of Pearce and King are basically unofficial PR reps for the Club.

It still doesn't mean its not accurate though Al. If you choose to believe a man who is prepared to use mental illness as some tool then that is up to you. You are well known for your anti-club stance on most subjects. It's been patiently obvious for sometime that Duncan is not yet good enough to be in the first team squad anyway.

[Eeyore]

I know but even as an argument from his agent it holds no water. The club playing hardline with a pisstake offer from a Serie A club seems to be our sin in this. It's the equivalent of Lovren's agent coming out and kicking off because we wouldn't let him go to Roma on loan.

My take on this is that the Club have made decisions on the likes of Kent, Camacho and Duncan amongst others and had decided that they didn't have a future here so they wanted to offload them and not loan them out. For me we have discovered a nice little sideline in bringing in the likes of Duncan, Solanke, Elliot and Ings on cut price compensation deals. We can then look to sell them on at a premium if they don't work out.

[jillcwhomever]

My take on this is that the Club have made decisions on the likes of Kent, Camacho and Duncan amongst others and had decided that they didn't have a future here so they wanted to offload them and not loan them out. For me we have discovered a nice little sideline in bringing in the likes of Duncan, Solanke, Elliot and Ings on cut price compensation deals. We can then look to sell them on at a premium if they don't work out.

It is well known that Klopp doesn't tend to like loan deals anyway, he would rather young players stayed together to develop, that was established early on when he arrived at the club.

[jillcwhomever]

It's a nothing story about how duncan missed 3 chances in preseason and got clattered by milner. Why does anybody really need to know that, its the sort of story you get whenever a player or manager leaves under poor circumstances. Then mentions how he isn't good enough and can't get in the England youth sides now, and that is why he should stay? I mean that really is why he needs to leave. His long term future wasn't here, most people dont think he'll be good enough to be here, so why stay?

When you work for a paper that has a history of writing hit pieces on young players and been called out by an England Intenrational for it's racial element you probably do get told to put disclaimers in articles.

I think it was quite clear he wasn't going to get a chance at the moment, it still doesn't explain why his agent decided to get so stupid with his outbursts over social media. It was the most pathetic way of representing any young player. If Bobby has got mental issues and none of us truly know, how can the agent even begin to think that was a good way to go about it? The man should be struck off from representing anyone.

[Fromola]

My take on this is that the Club have made decisions on the likes of Kent, Camacho and Duncan amongst others and had decided that they didn't have a future here so they wanted to offload them and not loan them out.

Camacho left as his contract was up. Kent patiently waited till the end of the window to get the move he wanted to Rangers.

Kent is 22 which Klopp referenced when he said another loan deal is not in his or our interests as he obviously wasn't in our plans. Duncan still only 18.

For me we have discovered a nice little sideline in bringing in the likes of Duncan, Solanke, Elliot and Ings on cut price compensation deals. We can then look to sell them on at a premium if they don't work out.

Well we complained long enough for the club not having a clue what they were doing in the transfer market.

[dakid]

Ibe has a better record than Sancho at U19 level,weird eh.
I was excited for Ibe when he came here,at on point i thought he could be as good as Sterling so don't start spouting shite Ibe was never a huge prospect.
Ibe was never a huge prospect early days here? 

I was excited when Ibe came here too based off media reports but the more is seen him play that faded away. Sterling was miles ahead of everyone even with his flaws when he was here. I couldn't understand how anyone who watched them play for our academy teams thought Ibe could be as good or better. But the problem was most people who said it like Jamie Redknapp probably hadnt and those who read that in the paper used that as their own opinion of the player.

Anyway, Jordan Ibe was playing one his two competitive games for England U19s at 18. Jordan Sancho meanwhile played 5 times at the same age for the England Senior team. Weird eh.

[Eeyore]

It still doesn't mean its not accurate though Al. If you choose to believe a man who is prepared to use mental illness as some tool then that is up to you. You are well known for your anti-club stance on most subjects. It's been patiently obvious for sometime that Duncan is not yet good enough to be in the first team squad anyway.

Firstly I think it is a bit much to try and take the moral high ground when King writes for the Fail. Secondly given the number of young males who take their own lives I really don't think you should be making huge assumptions about Duncan's mental state. It could be a sick attempt by the agent
to force a move or there could be something behind it. It isn't unreasonable to think that some young players suffer from say depression given their age and the pressures they are under. Rubie should not of made it public but I don't think we should be second guessing things.

Regarding Duncan for me he is an old fashioned poacher who doesn't have the pace or power to play upfront for a Klopp side. Which raises the question did the Club see him as someone we could mould into a first team player or was he seen as a cut price commodity who was a no brainer for £200k.

Likewise were the likes of Ings or Solanke seen as genuine first team players or again cut price commodities. Duncan cost us 200k and is being sold for £1.9m, Ings was bought for £6.5m +£1.5m in addons and sold for £18m + £2m + a loan fee and Solanke was bought for £4m and sold for £19m+.

[phil236849]

Firstly I think it is a bit much to try and take the moral high ground when King writes for the Fail. Secondly given the number of young males who take their own lives I really don't think you should be making huge assumptions about Duncan's mental state. It could be a sick attempt by the agent
to force a move or there could be something behind it. It isn't unreasonable to think that some young players suffer from say depression given their age and the pressures they are under. Rubie should not of made it public but I don't think we should be second guessing things.

Regarding Duncan for me he is an old fashioned poacher who doesn't have the pace or power to play upfront for a Klopp side. Which raises the question did the Club see him as someone we could mould into a first team player or was he seen as a cut price commodity who was a no brainer for £200k.

Likewise were the likes of Ings or Solanke seen as genuine first team players or again cut price commodities. Duncan cost us 200k and is being sold for £1.9m, Ings was bought for £6.5m +£1.5m in addons and sold for £18m + £2m + a loan fee and Solanke was bought for £4m and sold for £19m+.

Would you refuse entry to the Academy to all but sure fire future world class superstars?

Anyway, ings arrived in a different regime, solanke was genuinely a pet project for klopp, and all 3 developed their careers positively here

[jillcwhomever]

Firstly I think it is a bit much to try and take the moral high ground when King writes for the Fail. Secondly given the number of young males who take their own lives I really don't think you should be making huge assumptions about Duncan's mental state. It could be a sick attempt by the agent
to force a move or there could be something behind it. It isn't unreasonable to think that some young players suffer from say depression given their age and the pressures they are under. Rubie should not of made it public but I don't think we should be second guessing things.

Regarding Duncan for me he is an old fashioned poacher who doesn't have the pace or power to play upfront for a Klopp side. Which raises the question did the Club see him as someone we could mould into a first team player or was he seen as a cut price commodity who was a no brainer for £200k.

Likewise were the likes of Ings or Solanke seen as genuine first team players or again cut price commodities. Duncan cost us 200k and is being sold for £1.9m, Ings was bought for £6.5m +£1.5m in addons and sold for £18m + £2m + a loan fee and Solanke was bought for £4m and sold for £19m+.

I'm not taking the moral high ground, but I have had experiences due to friends and family members who have suffered mental issues. Its pretty obvious that dealing with something like that in the way the agent has, is far more likely to cause further distress, not less. I can't even begin to wonder what the hell he thought he would achieve in going down that route. I have some sympathy for Duncan in a personal sense, but his head seems to have been filled with unrealistic thoughts. He had a chance in the pre-season, its obvious that Klopp gives the youngsters every opportunity to succeed whenever he can. But its true to say, he didn't look overly impressive.

Having said all that, I do think they were looking to develop him further, he was only 18 overall. But once their heads have been turned how far is it wise to go? The damage had been done. As for your point about the prices, it depends on the experience of the players. Ings has come back from two horrible injuries, he was never going to go for a huge price. As for Duncan I think we would have kept him with the other up and coming and continued to develop him, he had a good partnership last season with Gratzel.

[Fromola]

Firstly I think it is a bit much to try and take the moral high ground when King writes for the Fail. Secondly given the number of young males who take their own lives I really don't think you should be making huge assumptions about Duncan's mental state. It could be a sick attempt by the agent
to force a move or there could be something behind it. It isn't unreasonable to think that some young players suffer from say depression given their age and the pressures they are under. Rubie should not of made it public but I don't think we should be second guessing things.

Regarding Duncan for me he is an old fashioned poacher who doesn't have the pace or power to play upfront for a Klopp side. Which raises the question did the Club see him as someone we could mould into a first team player or was he seen as a cut price commodity who was a no brainer for £200k.

Likewise were the likes of Ings or Solanke seen as genuine first team players or again cut price commodities. Duncan cost us 200k and is being sold for £1.9m, Ings was bought for £6.5m +£1.5m in addons and sold for £18m + £2m + a loan fee and Solanke was bought for £4m and sold for £19m+.

Well Ings could have been an ideal Klopp player but did his ACL on Klopp's first training session and then came back and did it again. That did for him here. He could have had an Origi style impact last season if things had worked out differently with injuries. As it was Rodgers signed him and was picking him (scored in the derby in his last game).

Solanke made 27 appearances in his full season at Liverpool.

I've not seen a great deal of Duncan to judge if he's another Craig Lindfield, Adam Morgan-style poacher and nothing else, or if there's more to him than that. Only the youth scout who scouted him would be able to answer what they saw in him that caused them to get him off City.

[Eeyore]

Well Ings could have been an ideal Klopp player but did his ACL on Klopp's first training session and then came back and did it again. That did for him here. He could have had an Origi style impact last season if things had worked out differently with injuries. As it was Rodgers signed him and was picking him (scored in the derby in his last game).

Solanke made 27 appearances in his full season at Liverpool.

I've not seen a great deal of Duncan to judge if he's another Craig Lindfield, Adam Morgan-style poacher and nothing else, or if there's more to him than that. Only the youth scout who scouted him would be able to answer what they saw in him that caused them to get him off City.

Solanke who we signed for £4m replaced Origi in the squad who we got a 6m euro loan fee for.

[CraigDS]

An accurate summary of what he saw.

Given that King basically makes a living from writing stories that are based on getting inside information from the Club do you think he is unbiased or like myself do you think there is a massive conflict of interests at play here. The likes of Pearce and King are basically unofficial PR reps for the Club.

I think journos close to the club are able to write from sources connected to the club and from what they seen themselves.

I’ve not seen anything from King, nor know him personally, to suggest (as you are) he’s a liar.

[newterp]

An accurate summary of what he saw.

Given that King basically makes a living from writing stories that are based on getting inside information from the Club do you think he is unbiased or like myself do you think there is a massive conflict of interests at play here. The likes of Pearce and King are basically unofficial PR reps for the Club. 

This post is exactly why I always respond to you in a condescending manner. You ALWAYS take a story and try to spin in it in a negative light to make the club look bad to the point of fabricating your own evidence. Then you invariably move the goalposts whenever anyone calls you out. It’s a hell of a talent you have.

[reddazforever]

Sky just had a reporter based in Italy on saying the Bobby Duncan deal is actually €500k upfront + up to €1m based on appearances + sell on clause so deal may not be as good as is being reported in the uk press

[Medellin]

I was excited when Ibe came here too based off media reports but the more is seen him play that faded away. Sterling was miles ahead of everyone even with his flaws when he was here. I couldn't understand how anyone who watched them play for our academy teams thought Ibe could be as good or better. But the problem was most people who said it like Jamie Redknapp probably hadnt and those who read that in the paper used that as their own opinion of the player.

Anyway, Jordan Ibe was playing one his two competitive games for England U19s at 18. Jordan Sancho meanwhile played 5 times at the same age for the England Senior team. Weird eh.

You,like a few others in the thread have swerved away from the development stage of the few players mentioned,which is where Duncan is at right now & whether he makes the next step.
Duncan could well be that next big thing & put 2 fingers up to us all in the same way Ibe so far has failed to reach what some expected.

Again,not based on media reports..there was a stage in Ibe's career here where many fans (not media) thought he was going to go all the way & yes,I  thought it was possible he could surpass Sterling at the same time.
It obviously faded away,any fool will tell you that.

[mattD]

Lie down with dogs, you get fleas.

The lad Duncan should never have joined up with that Saif Rubie.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Solanke who we signed for £4m replaced Origi in the squad who we got a 6m euro loan fee for.

Not really how it happened. It was only Solanke's performances in training and in pre-season that led to us being willing to loan out Origi.

Anyway, I don't get your point. On the one hand you're questioning whether Solanke was brought in as a genuine first teamer and now you seem to be providing an example to prove that he clearly was brought in as a first teamer?

[Dim Glas]

Sky just had a reporter based in Italy on saying the Bobby Duncan deal is actually €500k upfront + up to €1m based on appearances + sell on clause so deal may not be as good as is being reported in the uk press

doen't really matter though. The club stood their ground and got what they wanted - a fee, rather than a pointless loan offer for him.

IF he does well, they get more money, if he doesnt, his next strop is Fiorentina's problem.

[aggerdid]

A scouser in florence. Good luck to him but very messy way to leave. Surprising considering hes related to gerrard some how

[lukeb1981]

Sky just had a reporter based in Italy on saying the Bobby Duncan deal is actually €500k upfront + up to €1m based on appearances + sell on clause so deal may not be as good as is being reported in the uk press

Italian clubs always peddle shite , they never want to be seen to loose face so put out stories that make it look like they are the winners.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

A scouser in florence.

Probably inspired by Jon Flanagan.