Author Topic: Can Privatisation Work?  (Read 1664 times)

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Can Privatisation Work?
« on: August 8, 2022, 12:39:47 pm »
It's the Tory mantra - things are better, more efficient and it brings savings to customers and a better service.

From what I've seen of Privatised services, they may be more efficiant to save money, but at the cost of better service. For-profit organisations are there to make a profit and give those dividends to shareholders. They really couldn't give a fuck about the customer as long as they make a mountain of cash. From what I've seen as well, Privatised services (As well as usually being fairly shite at the best of times) are really expensive as well - the money that might make it cheaper goes to the bosses and shareholders.

Worse, in many Privatised companies, the Tories have made it so that the public funds the backbones behind them - the infrastructure, communications and other areas and the private company reaps the profits and reward.

So, in the case of trains, the public appears to pay many times

* Pays for the infrastructure
* Pays for the money that the Government gives to the private companies
* -- that money usually doesn't make it into the service, but gets given to shareholders and bosses
* Pays over the odds for a shite service that rarely delivers what it promises


.. but from what I can see, the private companies have no vested interest in service or happiness of the customer or even a good deal. They wade in there to rake as much money as they can and the fuck off, leaving a shithole of a mess for the next Fucking bandit.
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Offline gregor

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #1 on: August 8, 2022, 12:53:33 pm »
I've worked in the public sector (for the civil service) and currently work for a private sector company on a government contract. I'm not in love with the idea of privatisation either, and I think there are certain sectors where it shouldn't happen (health being one of them). I think personnel is far more important for the efficiency of a department though than whether that department is in public or private hands. If there are good people there who know what they're doing, that's by far the most important thing.

Also, you're obviously right that the interests of private companies are to make a profit, but that doesn't always happen of course. The last contract I worked on before this one lost money -  meaning that loss was on the company, rather than the taxpayer, it can happen.

Offline Andy

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #2 on: August 8, 2022, 01:53:10 pm »
In a perfect market, a quality product and customer service should be key as otherwise a company would lose custom to its rivals. If you don't like the price/style/ethics behind/customer service for shirts made by Next, you can easily buy them from other clothing companies.

A lot of the sectors in which there is debate about privatisation are imperfect markets - trains, energy, health... - and therefore it is harder for there to be direct competition. Maybe you can take a bus, fly, cycle, walk or drive instead of taking a train, but in most cases then the train is the only option.

These sectors also tend to be two tier: the infrastructure and the service provider. Energy is produced by power stations, then bought and sold by energy suppliers.

There is also the consideration on moral grounds. Should we let the health service be a open marketplace?

My view is that private vs public ownership massively depends on the market. Trains and energy are the most debatable, especially as under public ownership both were a shit-show in the 70s and 80s.

I'd guess that those in favour of public ownership assume that the product and customer service would improve, plus they'll make profits for the country. I'm not sure this would be true unfortunately.

Offline thaddeus

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #3 on: August 8, 2022, 02:59:32 pm »
In a perfect market, a quality product and customer service should be key as otherwise a company would lose custom to its rivals. If you don't like the price/style/ethics behind/customer service for shirts made by Next, you can easily buy them from other clothing companies.

A lot of the sectors in which there is debate about privatisation are imperfect markets - trains, energy, health... - and therefore it is harder for there to be direct competition. Maybe you can take a bus, fly, cycle, walk or drive instead of taking a train, but in most cases then the train is the only option.

These sectors also tend to be two tier: the infrastructure and the service provider. Energy is produced by power stations, then bought and sold by energy suppliers.

There is also the consideration on moral grounds. Should we let the health service be a open marketplace?

My view is that private vs public ownership massively depends on the market. Trains and energy are the most debatable, especially as under public ownership both were a shit-show in the 70s and 80s.

I'd guess that those in favour of public ownership assume that the product and customer service would improve, plus they'll make profits for the country. I'm not sure this would be true unfortunately.
Very much that.  At the two extremes we don't want HMG churning out Ladas but companies focused on profit shouldn't be in charge of people's health.  Innovation is higher in the private sector but not all innovation is good and often leads to failure.  CEOs reporting to shareholders and putting short-term profits ahead of long-term investment has been rife across our utilities since privatisation (compare and contrast to France).

The privatisations of services seem to be ideological and with no supporting evidence.  It's selling the family silver for some quick money at the expense of the service users.

My biggest gripe is when a sector is privatised but propped up by state subsidiaries.  It's difficult to see what the privatisation of our railways has achieved beyond a complicated, fragmented and expensive service with billions in subsidiaries to the rotating cast of providers.

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #4 on: August 8, 2022, 04:21:31 pm »
I’m a leftie but I don’t want a government department in Whitehall designing my trainees. That said vital services, infrastructure and strategic industries like steel etc should be owned by the government, they should be nationalised. That way at least the people have some sort of control over them via the ballet box. In this world you have two types of ownership, either the rich own it or the people own it (via the government). Now as a general rule I wouldn’t trust any politician as far as I could throw them but I trust the rich even less.

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #5 on: August 8, 2022, 04:27:24 pm »
The following should remain or be in public hands:
NHS (obvious reasons)
Rail (we end up subsidising it anyway)
Water (they are pure monopolies that chose profit over investment)
Energy (especially if we are free from fossil fuels and not so dependent on international fuel prices)

The main problem with privatisation is there’s a lack of long term thinking. Shareholders want a return now, not 10-20 years time, directors are interested in hitting targets usually tied to the share price and dividends to get their bonuses, so there is less incentive to think as far ahead as we need to with critical infrastructure, or they will want the state to provide guarantees and subsidies for their investment which defeat the point privatisation in the first place as the state take on the risk.

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #6 on: August 8, 2022, 04:49:30 pm »
I think people can be too ideological when it comes to private v public.


I would not want a Public Sector Ice Cream (probably one flavour, Vanilla) and neither would I want the Private sector to provide emergency health care. It's about what it is and what works (and how it is managed as well, without too much political interference)


A good decision is a good decision.


In the private sector if you make bad decision you disappear, in the public sector you can carry on making bad decisions with less impact on your survival. What is important is how it's done not what. On the whole, I think we have moved too far to the private sector but I would want us to consider how we get good public services as well (not starved ones)
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Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #7 on: August 8, 2022, 04:50:08 pm »
The following should remain or be in public hands:
NHS (obvious reasons)
Rail (we end up subsidising it anyway)
Water (they are pure monopolies that chose profit over investment)
Energy (especially if we are free from fossil fuels and not so dependent on international fuel prices)

The main problem with privatisation is there’s a lack of long term thinking. Shareholders want a return now, not 10-20 years time, directors are interested in hitting targets usually tied to the share price and dividends to get their bonuses, so there is less incentive to think as far ahead as we need to with critical infrastructure, or they will want the state to provide guarantees and subsidies for their investment which defeat the point privatisation in the first place as the state take on the risk.



That's the Tory way

Privatise the profit and make the risk public.
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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2022, 05:32:54 pm »
There's obviously different strands of privatisation.

The sale of gas/elec/water/BT were all condusted at opening share prices that were well below the market valuation (the proof being the immediate increases in share prices). The claim is that they were deliberately sold off on the cheap to a) ensure that the share issues were a fully taken-up success; and b) to guarantee profits for investors (many of which were supporters/donors of the Tory Party)

I think it's clear that, in terms of creating a proper market for consumers, the BT sale is the one that most closely creates this - although that has depended on the advancement of new technology (and most providers still rely on the old BT - now Open Reach - infrastructure network)

Water is ridiculous privatisatrion model. Pure monopolies were created. OfWat were created as regulator, but were set up to be all but toothless. The result is that, since the 1989 privatisation, water companies have:
~ been able to hike prices way above inflation
~ not build any major reservoirs since before privatisation (despite the UK population increasing by over 18% in that period)
~ paid out £57bn in dividends to shareholders between 1989 and 2020.

The gas-electric has created a market for suppliers. And, prior to the current problems, most made some profit. But the biggest beneficiary is behind the scenes. Privatisation split the provision of gas & elecricity into suppliers and the generation/infrastructure. The structure has changed a little over the years, but the infrastructure - the gas pipes/electrcity cables to homes and business, etc -  is owned by National Grid plc. They charge the supply companies to use the infrastructure. Again, they're a total monopoly. And they've taken full advantage, with their profits generally ranging between £2bn and £4bn a year.

Personally, I think we need to nationalise water as a priority. Especially given climate change that has the potential to disrupt supplies here. That £57bn leched out of the company should have been used to replace crumbling infrastructure and build some more reservoirs, not line the pockets of fat cat parasites.

Then nationalise National Grid. Keep the supply side privatised.

With both the water companies and National Grid, we need to minimise the amount payable in compensation to shareholders. Ideally find a way to perhaps index-link the initial share-price and pay that per-share, rather than the current share prices. Or perhaps impose draconion regulations - including forced investment and lower prices - to make them uncompetitive, driving down the share price to an acceptable level.

With the railways, Network Rail is already in public ownership. With the TOCs, the most cost-efficient way is to systematically take control of franchises as contracts expire for each current TOC.


The other main strand of privatisation is outsourcing of services. Rewind 40 years and all the public services were provided by in-house workers, employed by the public sector with decent salaries, secure positions, good T&Cs, pension, sick pay, etc.

So a private company takes over provision of the service, being paid at most what it previously cost the sate to provide the service via a public sector workforce. The owners/shareholders want to extract a profit from the money they are paid to undertake the service, and senior execs/directors also take salary packages bigger than the former public sector managers, so that's immediately a chunk of money diverted away from the provision of the service.
The myth peddled is that the savings are made from 'efficiencies', but examine those efficiencies and it's basically the workforce who pay the price. TUPE is supposed to offer some protections, but it's easily got around. The first step is usually a reduction in the workforce, meaning the remaining workers have bigger workloads. Any new staff will normally be on worse contracts/pay. Increased use of temp/agency/ZHC workers. Then they start nibbling away at T&Cs and pension entitlements and sick pay and holidays. Staff become demoralised and leave. Replaced by temp'agency/ZHC workers, or by workers on worse pay/T&Cs.

You end up with the situation that any savings in the overall cost to the state of the provision of the service are miniscule - but shareholders extract big sums, as to the senior execs/directors. And what were once good jobs are now in the McJob territory.

The result is that a demoralised, often inexperienced, low-paid workforce with high staff turnover, delivers a worse service to the public.

Is it a coincidence that hospital 'super bugs' emerged once pretty much all hospital cleaning was taken away from fully-employed hospital cleaners and handed to private cleaning companies whose main aim was profit maximisation?

You look at the crises in elderly care provision. Go back 40 years and every local authority ran its own care homes. Yes, there were private care homes (usually with high charges), but the majority were public sector. By the early 00's, the programme to sell-off care homes was well underway, and now there's barely any care homes in the public sector. They're nearly all privatised - again, with the shareholders and senior execs/directors removing [collectively] £billions each year in dividends and high pay packages. £billions that could otherwise be used to pay workers properly to end the staffing crisis.


Let's be clear, privatisation is nothing but a device to transfer money to the wealthy at the expense of the workers.

The entire 'efficiency' myth is a misnomer that, sadly, all too may people swallow.
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Offline thaddeus

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2022, 05:47:03 pm »
There's obviously different strands of privatisation.

The sale of gas/elec/water/BT were all condusted at opening share prices that were well below the market valuation (the proof being the immediate increases in share prices). The claim is that they were deliberately sold off on the cheap to a) ensure that the share issues were a fully taken-up success; and b) to guarantee profits for investors (many of which were supporters/donors of the Tory Party)

I think it's clear that, in terms of creating a proper market for consumers, the BT sale is the one that most closely creates this - although that has depended on the advancement of new technology (and most providers still rely on the old BT - now Open Reach - infrastructure network)

Water is ridiculous privatisatrion model. Pure monopolies were created. OfWat were created as regulator, but were set up to be all but toothless. The result is that, since the 1989 privatisation, water companies have:
~ been able to hike prices way above inflation
~ not build any major reservoirs since before privatisation (despite the UK population increasing by over 18% in that period)
~ paid out £57bn in dividends to shareholders between 1989 and 2020.

The gas-electric has created a market for suppliers. And, prior to the current problems, most made some profit. But the biggest beneficiary is behind the scenes. Privatisation split the provision of gas & elecricity into suppliers and the generation/infrastructure. The structure has changed a little over the years, but the infrastructure - the gas pipes/electrcity cables to homes and business, etc -  is owned by National Grid plc. They charge the supply companies to use the infrastructure. Again, they're a total monopoly. And they've taken full advantage, with their profits generally ranging between £2bn and £4bn a year.

Personally, I think we need to nationalise water as a priority. Especially given climate change that has the potential to disrupt supplies here. That £57bn leched out of the company should have been used to replace crumbling infrastructure and build some more reservoirs, not line the pockets of fat cat parasites.

Then nationalise National Grid. Keep the supply side privatised.

With both the water companies and National Grid, we need to minimise the amount payable in compensation to shareholders. Ideally find a way to perhaps index-link the initial share-price and pay that per-share, rather than the current share prices. Or perhaps impose draconion regulations - including forced investment and lower prices - to make them uncompetitive, driving down the share price to an acceptable level.

With the railways, Network Rail is already in public ownership. With the TOCs, the most cost-efficient way is to systematically take control of franchises as contracts expire for each current TOC.


The other main strand of privatisation is outsourcing of services. Rewind 40 years and all the public services were provided by in-house workers, employed by the public sector with decent salaries, secure positions, good T&Cs, pension, sick pay, etc.

So a private company takes over provision of the service, being paid at most what it previously cost the sate to provide the service via a public sector workforce. The owners/shareholders want to extract a profit from the money they are paid to undertake the service, and senior execs/directors also take salary packages bigger than the former public sector managers, so that's immediately a chunk of money diverted away from the provision of the service.
The myth peddled is that the savings are made from 'efficiencies', but examine those efficiencies and it's basically the workforce who pay the price. TUPE is supposed to offer some protections, but it's easily got around. The first step is usually a reduction in the workforce, meaning the remaining workers have bigger workloads. Any new staff will normally be on worse contracts/pay. Increased use of temp/agency/ZHC workers. Then they start nibbling away at T&Cs and pension entitlements and sick pay and holidays. Staff become demoralised and leave. Replaced by temp'agency/ZHC workers, or by workers on worse pay/T&Cs.

You end up with the situation that any savings in the overall cost to the state of the provision of the service are miniscule - but shareholders extract big sums, as to the senior execs/directors. And what were once good jobs are now in the McJob territory.

The result is that a demoralised, often inexperienced, low-paid workforce with high staff turnover, delivers a worse service to the public.

Is it a coincidence that hospital 'super bugs' emerged once pretty much all hospital cleaning was taken away from fully-employed hospital cleaners and handed to private cleaning companies whose main aim was profit maximisation?

You look at the crises in elderly care provision. Go back 40 years and every local authority ran its own care homes. Yes, there were private care homes (usually with high charges), but the majority were public sector. By the early 00's, the programme to sell-off care homes was well underway, and now there's barely any care homes in the public sector. They're nearly all privatised - again, with the shareholders and senior execs/directors removing [collectively] £billions each year in dividends and high pay packages. £billions that could otherwise be used to pay workers properly to end the staffing crisis.


Let's be clear, privatisation is nothing but a device to transfer money to the wealthy at the expense of the workers.

The entire 'efficiency' myth is a misnomer that, sadly, all too may people swallow.
It feels like a weak response to such a well put together post but...   :wellin

My old man spent his whole working life (1968 until 2010) as an accountant for local government adult social care.  He always said the costs never remotely stacked up for privatising the homes and they effectively became blackmail victims with homes demanding extra money or they'd sell up to house builders.  Eventually it got to the point that the council built half a dozen new council-owned homes that ran at a much lower cost and gave them a bit of resilience when care home providers quit the market.  The biggest care home provider switched its expertise overnight and became a provider of special needs education, charging the council up to £150k/year per child to provide little more than holding centres for children with special needs.  When the government talk about "finding efficiencies" I always think of that but the government's solution would actually be to have more of it.

Would you mind sharing where you got the £57bn in dividends to water company shareholders figure from?

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2022, 10:38:03 pm »


Would you mind sharing where you got the £57bn in dividends to water company shareholders figure from?

Sure:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jul/01/england-privatised-water-firms-dividends-shareholders
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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2022, 11:21:56 pm »
Anything that is vital for society to function should be in public ownership. Utilities, the NHS, basic rail & bus transportation, emergency services, prisons all spring to mind.

And it's not about providing profit for the country, it's because they're vital services. The prisons in the US that have become slave labour farms, demanding the states send them ever more inmates or they'll shut up shop are where you get to with privatisation.
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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2022, 11:43:53 pm »
As fucked up as Northern Ireland is, NI Water is publicly owned. We don’t have water bills to pay (directly at least).

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2022, 09:07:02 am »
I was astounded last night to find out children's homes were in the private sector. 

How the fuck can a vulnerable child's welfare be a profitable commodity? 

How is it ethical to have a vulnerable child's welfare being looked after by private equity hedge funders.

As a country we're shelling out billions to unscrupulous individuals and organisations to provide "care" to the most vulnerable in our society.

FFS this is worse than the old lock em up and forget about them attitude.  I'm genuinely sickened how fucked up our society has become.

Offline thaddeus

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2022, 09:44:12 am »
I was astounded last night to find out children's homes were in the private sector. 

How the fuck can a vulnerable child's welfare be a profitable commodity? 

How is it ethical to have a vulnerable child's welfare being looked after by private equity hedge funders.

As a country we're shelling out billions to unscrupulous individuals and organisations to provide "care" to the most vulnerable in our society.

FFS this is worse than the old lock em up and forget about them attitude.  I'm genuinely sickened how fucked up our society has become.
It's hard to find services now that aren't at the very least sub-contracted.  Even most state schools are now run by academy trusts.  The national and local government have become commissioners and it's not something they're good at.

I've just had a scan through the annual budget of the local authority I used to work for for many years.  They're now spending £20m/year on placing children with special educational needs in "independent schools", up £2m on last year.  That £20m is for less than 400 children - so more than £50k/year each on average - and it showed one placement as being at over £200k/year!  I worked there in 2011 when long-term plans to open three additional local authority owned special needs schools were shelved due to budget cuts.  The like-for-like provision in a local authority special needs school is 1/3 of the cost and on top of that there were always issues with the independent providers not employing qualified staff and effectively creating holding pens until the children left school.  Out of sight, out of mind.

As the demand grows more money is given to the expanding independent sector and the prospects of building more local authority owned schools dwindles (https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/jul/28/funding-black-hole-councils-grapple-with-catastrophic-debt-for-sen-children).

I would need some serious convincing to ever think children's social care or special needs provision should be provided by for-profit organisations.

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2022, 11:23:10 am »
A friend of mine works for one of the big bus companies, but previously worked in the service before being broken up for privatisation. He’s adamant that the private service is much better: the end of nepotism, reduction of waste & malingering, a more responsive service (which to me means cutting routes & stops if they’re not profitable). He also gets paid more. In certain parts of the country these companies have virtual monopolies & we still have to subsidise these private companies. I’m guessing the original shareholders loved it & quickly flipped their share for profits. Meanwhile we have reduced services & they’re struggling to attract & keep drivers (a situation like most economic functions only made worse by Brexit).
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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2022, 11:31:37 am »
It's hard to find services now that aren't at the very least sub-contracted.  Even most state schools are now run by academy trusts.  The national and local government have become commissioners and it's not something they're good at.

I've just had a scan through the annual budget of the local authority I used to work for for many years.  They're now spending £20m/year on placing children with special educational needs in "independent schools", up £2m on last year.  That £20m is for less than 400 children - so more than £50k/year each on average - and it showed one placement as being at over £200k/year!  I worked there in 2011 when long-term plans to open three additional local authority owned special needs schools were shelved due to budget cuts.  The like-for-like provision in a local authority special needs school is 1/3 of the cost and on top of that there were always issues with the independent providers not employing qualified staff and effectively creating holding pens until the children left school.  Out of sight, out of mind.

As the demand grows more money is given to the expanding independent sector and the prospects of building more local authority owned schools dwindles (https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/jul/28/funding-black-hole-councils-grapple-with-catastrophic-debt-for-sen-children).

I would need some serious convincing to ever think children's social care or special needs provision should be provided by for-profit organisations.

Children's welfare should never be for profit mate.  In fact nobodies welfare should be in the hands of profiteers.

It's obscene!

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2022, 07:43:44 pm »
A friend of mine works for one of the big bus companies, but previously worked in the service before being broken up for privatisation. He’s adamant that the private service is much better: the end of nepotism, reduction of waste & malingering, a more responsive service (which to me means cutting routes & stops if they’re not profitable). He also gets paid more. In certain parts of the country these companies have virtual monopolies & we still have to subsidise these private companies. I’m guessing the original shareholders loved it & quickly flipped their share for profits. Meanwhile we have reduced services & they’re struggling to attract & keep drivers (a situation like most economic functions only made worse by Brexit).
You outlined the good and extremely outrageous points of privatisation in a single line.
Many local authority or public sector workers couldn't face the prospect of having to graft harder with the threats of privatisation under compulsory competitive tendering in the early '90's (which destroyed more jobs than it protected), however bus services shouldn't be operated strictly for profit. They are vital for many communities to be able to access basic services and are fundamentally important in the battle against climate change.

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2022, 08:13:28 pm »
You outlined the good and extremely outrageous points of privatisation in a single line.
Many local authority or public sector workers couldn't face the prospect of having to graft harder with the threats of privatisation under compulsory competitive tendering in the early '90's (which destroyed more jobs than it protected), however bus services shouldn't be operated strictly for profit. They are vital for many communities to be able to access basic services and are fundamentally important in the battle against climate change.

You obviously shouldn't cut a route for not being profitable but below a certain occupancy rate then surely decisions need to be made.

There have been a few articles recently about these on demand mini bus type rideshares where there is a semi fixed route but the bus only stops if booked at that stop (a stop being an area of a couple of roads I believe rather than a fixed point) and apparently these are proving quite popular.

I think there may have been something in Speke like this?

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2022, 10:58:22 pm »
You obviously shouldn't cut a route for not being profitable but below a certain occupancy rate then surely decisions need to be made.

There have been a few articles recently about these on demand mini bus type rideshares where there is a semi fixed route but the bus only stops if booked at that stop (a stop being an area of a couple of roads I believe rather than a fixed point) and apparently these are proving quite popular.

I think there may have been something in Speke like this?
We mustn't conflate bus routes (routes being the word Killie used) with demand responsive transport (demand being the word you used). They are two entirely different types of service.
Cutting routes can impact and isolate people, particularly with low income, who may otherwise not be able to travel without a bus service.
I do agree that demand responsive transport could easily be reviewed albeit the people that use that service are often (eligible) vulnerable and disabled. Merseytravels Merseylink (dial-a-ride services) is a good example of inefficiency, they use 16-seat accessible vehicles which generally carry one, maximum two people at a time door-to-door. Its not a good use of resources and there are lower-cost ways of delivering a demand responsive service such as taxis or smaller vehicles. (putting aside the the change in the taxi market since Covid as drivers don't seem to want contract work as much).

Offline ianburns252

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2022, 06:25:12 am »
We mustn't conflate bus routes (routes being the word Killie used) with demand responsive transport (demand being the word you used). They are two entirely different types of service.
Cutting routes can impact and isolate people, particularly with low income, who may otherwise not be able to travel without a bus service.
I do agree that demand responsive transport could easily be reviewed albeit the people that use that service are often (eligible) vulnerable and disabled. Merseytravels Merseylink (dial-a-ride services) is a good example of inefficiency, they use 16-seat accessible vehicles which generally carry one, maximum two people at a time door-to-door. Its not a good use of resources and there are lower-cost ways of delivering a demand responsive service such as taxis or smaller vehicles. (putting aside the the change in the taxi market since Covid as drivers don't seem to want contract work as much).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/11/all-aboard-how-on-demand-public-transport-is-getting-back-on-the-road

So this was the article that got me thinking about it (and it sounds like you know a fair bit more than I do so please forgive any errors here) but would it not be a possible solution to replace low occupancy routes with DRT?

When bus routes get cancelled, especially in small villages where the route was maybe connected to the nearest town and was the only way for people without a car to get there, it is often said about how it is stranding the old, the poor, the disabled, but also that the route may run with only a handful of people other than at certain times once or twice a week.

Replacing those sorts of routes with DRT would seem like a middle ground where it keeps the cost low enough for the consumer but doesn't over strain the tight budgets for a council run bus service.

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2022, 09:05:14 am »
I was astounded last night to find out children's homes were in the private sector. 

How the fuck can a vulnerable child's welfare be a profitable commodity? 

How is it ethical to have a vulnerable child's welfare being looked after by private equity hedge funders.

As a country we're shelling out billions to unscrupulous individuals and organisations to provide "care" to the most vulnerable in our society.

FFS this is worse than the old lock em up and forget about them attitude.  I'm genuinely sickened how fucked up our society has become.

Like my father is in a care home and can be, indeed, too poor for medical treatment, the answer is it has gone too far

I'm surprised this thread title is even a question - it's maybe not a blanket answer, but the big, big problem to me with privitisation is what is safe from it? Children's homes are not ringfenced, not care homes, medicine is turning private

We are one of the only countries in Europe where water is privatised. Water.

It has gone too far.

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2022, 09:10:59 am »

Where there is actual competition, for sure. The trouble is the end goal of lots of privatized sector companies is to achieve monopolies. Many of whom are still subsidized by the public. So what`s the point?
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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2022, 09:35:52 am »
The other issue though is that a lot of our utilities were pretty bad pre privatisation as well, as a country we seem to be pretty addicted to being short termist in most things we do and chronically underinvesting in essential services.

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2022, 10:03:04 am »
How could some sort of hybrid private/public business entity work? Something that's obviously self-funding, pays enough to attract a productive workforce while making enough money to invest in infrastructure that could result in continued better value for their customers.

Is there anything out there like this now?
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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2022, 11:14:34 am »
Some thoughts

The point of privatisation is competition.

Competition brings value as suppliers have to continuously improve the value of their product/service compared to their rivals. (but there is a cost of duplication of effort and waste)

So

Privatising a monopoly will not improve it

Some services may need a near monopoly , at least locally, in order to be of a viable scale .

The inequality of outcome from competing public services is a moral and political issue.
I mean: if 20% of new car buyers choose the vauxhall lemon gtx, and it sucks, tough shit.
If 20% of parents choose Gove Acadamies for their kids , and they suck, thats a serious problem.



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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2022, 01:34:45 pm »
Privatisation only works when it is for multiple entities - phone networks etc.

It doesn't work when it comes to singular entities - rail network, water supplies, energy.
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Offline John C

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Re: Can Privatisation Work?
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2022, 06:19:11 pm »
How could some sort of hybrid private/public business entity work? Something that's obviously self-funding, pays enough to attract a productive workforce while making enough money to invest in infrastructure that could result in continued better value for their customers.

Is there anything out there like this now?
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