Topic: The UK have acccepted Brexit

[ShakaHislop]

Go on then. We're all ears.

I'm sick of Labour voters here and elsewhere suggesting it's completely inevitable that the UK will be out of the Single Market/EU for 10/20/30 years as if the by far largest opposition bloc in Parliament getting on-board the rejoin SM/EU trains would not make a shred of difference.

It's like me saying I'd definitely win Mr Universe if I entered and then never entering. I'll never be proved wrong as I never allow the opportunity to be so to happen. Likewise, Labour refusing to even try to change people's minds on Brexit makes it more likely the 10/20/30 years forecasts become true whereas if they did try, the worst case scenario is merely what they said would happen anyway; the best scenario is we're back in the EU with plenty of our lifetimes to spare.

[Machae]

Whats the point of two Brexit threads, they're both now talking about the same issues

[TheShanklyGates]

I'm sick of Labour voters here and elsewhere suggesting it's completely inevitable that the UK will be out of the Single Market/EU for 10/20/30 years as if the by far largest opposition bloc in Parliament getting on-board the rejoin SM/EU trains would not make a shred of difference.

It's like me saying I'd definitely win Mr Universe if I entered and then never entering. I'll never be proved wrong as I never allow the opportunity to be so to happen. Likewise, Labour refusing to even try to change people's minds on Brexit makes it more likely the 10/20/30 years forecasts become true whereas if they did try, the worst case scenario is merely what they said would happen anyway; the best scenario is we're back in the EU with plenty of our lifetimes to spare.

As much as we'd like them to, the Labour Party aren't going to get on board the rejoin train any time soon, that's the point. It sounds to me like your issue is with the Labour party and not with people on here telling you what the reality is.

[oldfordie]

 I don't think anyone's demanding we re-join right now but many are arguing they have to campaign to re-join the SM,  we knew Johnsons Tory's were fanatics but they are constantly shocking me, this is not politics, they are treating their supporters with contempt with their lies and bullshit and nobody knows if they are getting away with it yet, taking us out the ECHR arguing they are getting Brexit done, they are causing arguments to incite anger and division to point the finger of blame at Labour. this is not the Tory party. these are fanatics who will have no problems with making things as nasty as possible.
This shouldn't be forgotten when calculating how to move towards re-joining the EU or the SM in the coming election. make the SM a election issue then be prepared for a s,, storm. they will be like cornered wild animals who will incite as much anger as possible while pointing at Labour.
We need to get them out of power. a Labour majority could be the turning point for everything. the country, the Labour party and the Tory party.
Labour could then move us closer to the SM with more alignment.
The Torys left in Parliament will no doubt argue we might as well be back in the EU.  no problem, let them go for it but Labour would hopefully be facing a less rabid Tory party with at least some standards. this would be the time to argue to re-join the EU, whether that happens with another referendum or GE is something i don't think is possible to tell right now.
The most important thing is if we want to reverse this Tory Brexit then we have to get rid of these Tory fanatical MPs first.

[Kenny's Jacket]

The chance to turn Brexit around went in 2016 after Owen Smith lost the leadership election when nobody knew which direction we were going, he was willing to stand toe to toe with the Tory's on Brexit,  he had the guts and the intelligence to do it but all his words of warning were ignored, he warned Labour members about Corbyn not being intelligent or forceful enough to stand up to the Torys, he also argued Corbyn wants Brexit,   Corbyn argued for a SM Norwegian Brexit during those leadership debates in 2016, Corbyn was re-elected and then he literally tossed all his promises for a Norwegian Brexit in the bin within weeks to make the same argument as Theresa May, how we have to leave the SM to deliver Brexit. bang went the SM deal option, no outcry's of treachery from his supporters either,  everything changed after that, we were f.. from that moment on.

When Corbyn was looking get Brexit through and calling for article 50 to be invoked ASAP, he got a 30 seat gain from
When he was duped into a peoples vote we ended up with the worst government imaginable with an 80 sear majority

For me threre is no way OS was breaking through to the white working class on a remain agenda.

[KillieRed]

Whats the point of two Brexit threads, they're both now talking about the same issues

Yes, absolutely.

The OP put forward a good point/question, however, that got more attention because it was a new post. Time to merge though.

[oldfordie]

When Corbyn was looking get Brexit through and calling for article 50 to be invoked ASAP, he got a 30 seat gain from
When he was duped into a peoples vote we ended up with the worst government imaginable with an 80 sear majority

For me threre is no way OS was breaking through to the white working class on a remain agenda.

Corbyn calling for us to invoke Art 50 ASAP the following morning showed just how unfit he was to be leader. he had hours to think of a few words of caution with a responsible answer. what we got was a few words off the top of his head telling us Art 50 has to be invoked ASAP, he then spent years defending himself saying he didn't actually mean straight away. he did himself and the remain campaign a lot of damage. even Hananns response got more respect, how we should stand back and take stock and not rush things, as we all knew triggering art 50 started the clock, no responsible leader should have called for Art 50 to be invoked asap, Corbyn never won any votes for saying we must invoke art 50 asap. he infuriated millions. so this wasn't some smart move by Corbyn, it was a stupid thing to say even if 90% of the country voted leave. he had the opportunity to show himself as intelligent responsible leader if he had given the country a few words of caution telling us to stand back and think before invoking art 50.  we got a few off the cuff words he regretted for years.
 A lot happened from that day to the 2017 GE but I can't think of anything Corbyn said that influenced public opinion on Brexit, I can think of many things May and the Torys said that won over voters, the only people who had any influence were remain campaigners who saw no other option but to vote Labour to stop Mays Brexit. many held their nose and voted Labour with suspicion.
Corbyns brexit arguments were about the UK being a off shore tax haven didn't have much impact. true but nothing said with the conviction of a politician who feared brexit.
Owen Smiths speeches were hardly noticed as he was a backbencher. short video below of a typical Smith speech. interesting comments. many don't know who he was and whether he still around but they are very impressed.
Never say you weren't warned the poster says. pity he never had the chance to be more high profile as he had all the qualities of a great leader we needed at the time. Intelligence, foresight. guts. decency.

Brexit Bin 🇪🇺🕊🇺🇦 #BrexitReality on Twitter: "In case you missed it ... Never say you weren't warned. https://t.co/5pwUA4VCv1" / Twitter

Duped into a peoples vote or dragged kicking and screaming towards a peoples vote. people saw it as being dragged kicking and screaming, problem by then was nobody trusted him. they had hope in 2017 but they knew he was sitting on the fence allowing Brexit to happen. Corbyn went on interview after interview denying Labour members and voters support another referendum. McCluskey as usual said some nasty things to defend Corbyns stance refusing to accept most Labour members + voters are for a referendum. Corbyn had lost the arguments. had no influence on public opinion and lost the trust of millions by 2019.

[ShakaHislop]

As much as we'd like them to, the Labour Party aren't going to get on board the rejoin train any time soon, that's the point. It sounds to me like your issue is with the Labour party and not with people on here telling you what the reality is.

My problem is with both the Labour Party and many people who will still tribally support it despite Labour moving further and further away from even a soft Brexit, let alone rejoining the EU. That tribal loyalty enables Labour to do what it's doing because they assume votes will not be lost no matter what. Corbyn took the vote of pro-EU voters for granted from the 2017 general election onwards and people are now letting Starmer's Labour do likewise under the same "long game" delusion. Some don't think it's the same because of the pro-anti Corbyn psychodrama that still plagues the party to this day.

BTW, I agree with those who have said this thread should be merged into the bigger Brexit thread

[Sangria]

My problem is with both the Labour Party and many people who will still tribally support it despite Labour moving further and further away from even a soft Brexit, let alone rejoining the EU. That tribal loyalty enables Labour to do what it's doing because they assume votes will not be lost no matter what. Corbyn took the vote of pro-EU voters for granted from the 2017 general election onwards and people are now letting Starmer's Labour do likewise under the same "long game" delusion. Some don't think it's the same because of the pro-anti Corbyn psychodrama that still plagues the party to this day.

BTW, I agree with those who have said this thread should be merged into the bigger Brexit thread

It's less tribal loyalty to Labour and more maximising the chances of ejecting the Tories.

[ShakaHislop]

It's less tribal loyalty to Labour and more maximising the chances of ejecting the Tories.

It's winning for the sake of winning IMO. You get back into power and then do nothing you really want to because you fear you'll start to lose again if you do.

[Sangria]

It's winning for the sake of winning IMO. You get back into power and then do nothing you really want to because you fear you'll start to lose again if you do.

Simply having Labour in government keeps a lot of the worse things the Tories do from being done. There's over a decade of evidence of this.

[Father Ted]

Good to know we're trying to get the Tories out again after five years of sabotage and wrecking ball operations.

*notices the Labour right are back at the wheel*

Ah, I see.

[Wild Romany Boy]

Good to know we're trying to get the Tories out again after five years of sabotage and wrecking ball operations.

*notices the Labour right are back at the wheel*

Ah, I see.

Full story: I don't watch Father Ted anymore, but I'm very much enjoying this version of it. Well put.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Corbyn calling for us to invoke Art 50 ASAP the following morning showed just how unfit he was to be leader. he had hours to think of a few words of caution with a responsible answer. what we got was a few words off the top of his head telling us Art 50 has to be invoked ASAP,

The subsequent election was won by a landslide, based on the slogan get Brexit done.  In terms of trying to win the election this evidently was the right call.  Look at the European election results, The Brexit party got the most votes

Corbyn never won any votes for saying we must invoke art 50 asap. he infuriated millions

Did he? Im not sure
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/how-leavers-and-remainers-diverged-in-the-2019-election-evidence-from-the-polls/

Remain voters, in contrast, continued to be evenly divided between Labour and the Liberal Democrats. Indeed, the Remain vote did not begin to consolidate at all until the 2019 election was called. Although the Liberal Democrats had played a vital role in triggering the contest, the moment it was announced their support began to fall away, and Labour emerged as clearly the most popular choice of Remain voters. By the time the final polls were published, Labour support was up on its pre-election standing by 12 points among Remain voters, while the Liberal Democrats were down by 12 points.

[Elmo!]

Yes, absolutely.

The OP put forward a good point/question, however, that got more attention because it was a new post. Time to merge though.

Has RAWK accepted that one Brexit thread is better than 2? I think Andy needs to add a poll.

[Yorkykopite]

Did he? Im not sure
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/how-leavers-and-remainers-diverged-in-the-2019-election-evidence-from-the-polls/

My memory is that Corbyn's instant support for triggering Article 50 demoralised the Remain vote. It was the culmination of his own insane campaign during the Referendum where he refused to lead and disappeared on holiday rather than work to consolidate and inspire the vast Remain vote. His enthusiaism for triggering Article 50 was seen to be a sort of 'coming out' speech where he said what he truly believed at last. I don't think it attracted any Brexiteers - working class or otherwise - to the Labour party. And it certainly didn't consolidate the Remain vote behind Labour, which is what Corbyn had to do if he wanted to oust the Tories.

The report you quote goes on to say this:

It is this contrast between the partisan division among Remain voters and the relative unity of Leave supporters that explains why the election produced a pro-Brexit government with a majority of eighty even though rather more votes (52%) were cast for parties that were willing to hold a second referendum than were cast for parties in favour of the implementation of Brexit (47%). These two tallies, incidentally, match the level of support for Remain and Leave in the polls at the time.

But why was the Leave vote much more united than Remain support? We already have one clue from the fact that the consolidation of the Leave vote began as soon as Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson became Prime Minister – the relative popularity of the leaders. On average in the polls that Opinium conducted during the election campaign, Leave voters approved of the job that Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson was doing as Prime Minister by 64% to 20%. In contrast, Remain supporters were divided in their evaluations of both Jeremy Corbyn (34% approved, 36% disapproved) and Jo Swinson (37% approved, 29% disapproved).

[RainbowFlick]

Simply having Labour in government keeps a lot of the worse things the Tories do from being done. There's over a decade of evidence of this.

yes. but i think a fair few of us don't just want to maintain some sort of liberal status quo.

in any case, i think it's more a case of labour (on the assumption at some point they win an election) start rebuilding bridges with the EU instead of outright advocating for rejoining. that won't happen for 20-odd years, surely, unless the losses of Brexit are that tangible to set back this island (and the elite media types) massively

[Sangria]

yes. but i think a fair few of us don't just want to maintain some sort of liberal status quo.

in any case, i think it's more a case of labour (on the assumption at some point they win an election) start rebuilding bridges with the EU instead of outright advocating for rejoining. that won't happen for 20-odd years, surely, unless the losses of Brexit are that tangible to set back this island (and the elite media types) massively

We're not in a liberal status quo. The Tories are removing the liberal from liberal democracy, and restricting the democracy in liberal democracy too.

[oldfordie]

The subsequent election was won by a landslide, based on the slogan get Brexit done.  In terms of trying to win the election this evidently was the right call.  Look at the European election results, The Brexit party got the most votes
 Did he? Im not sure
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/how-leavers-and-remainers-diverged-in-the-2019-election-evidence-from-the-polls/

Remain voters, in contrast, continued to be evenly divided between Labour and the Liberal Democrats. Indeed, the Remain vote did not begin to consolidate at all until the 2019 election was called. Although the Liberal Democrats had played a vital role in triggering the contest, the moment it was announced their support began to fall away, and Labour emerged as clearly the most popular choice of Remain voters. By the time the final polls were published, Labour support was up on its pre-election standing by 12 points among Remain voters, while the Liberal Democrats were down by 12 points.

I assume your saying Corbyns backing or at best his ambiguity over Brexit won over voters in 2017 so this proved he would have been correct to go into the 2019 GE using the same tactics. People who wanted to remain felt let down by 2019. it was too late to win them back when he was forced to announce Labour will support a vote on the deal they negotiate. even that was looked on with suspicion for a few reasons.
I don't know how anyone can look at the big swing to the Tory Brexit and the Brexit party dominance in the European low turn out MEP elections as a defence for Corbyns stance on supporting Brexit, it shows how little support he won in the following years after 2017 GE. surely people remember the period. Leave voters don't trust him and remain voters don't trust him.
 The polls showed Labour were in for a hammering at the beginning of 2019 before Johnson took over in July. I remember Corbyn demanding a election time and time again for show then crapping himself when Johnson called him out. Johnson mocked him time and time again over it.
Calling for art 50 to be invoked now and then pointing to the 2017 GE result proves it must have been a positive is stretching things too far. Corbyn wouldn't have spent the next few years defending himself for that statement if people thought it was a positive. to be honest in 6yrs ive never heard anyone argue it was a good thing to do until today.

I understood where the Lib Dems were coming from when they said they will stop Brexit without a referendum. it was the counter argument to the Torys forcing through a hard Brexit without a referendum. too subtle for voters, they messed up badly as most people believed the only way Brexit should be stopped was with another referendum.
The argument seems to be the fact the country moved towards leaving after the vote to leave proves Corbyn was right to support leaving without a peoples vote.
I doubt if many remain supporters would agree. it showed he never influenced public opinion. he lost the arguments and the publics support.

[Mister Flip Flop]

Sorry folks we don't want you back. 

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Corbyn calling for us to invoke Art 50 ASAP the following morning showed just how unfit he was to be leader. he had hours to think of a few words of caution with a responsible answer. what we got was a few words off the top of his head telling us Art 50 has to be invoked ASAP, he then spent years defending himself saying he didn't actually mean straight away. he did himself and the remain campaign a lot of damage. even Hananns response got more respect, how we should stand back and take stock and not rush things, as we all knew triggering art 50 started the clock, no responsible leader should have called for Art 50 to be invoked asap, Corbyn never won any votes for saying we must invoke art 50 asap. he infuriated millions. so this wasn't some smart move by Corbyn, it was a stupid thing to say even if 90% of the country voted leave. he had the opportunity to show himself as intelligent responsible leader if he had given the country a few words of caution telling us to stand back and think before invoking art 50.  we got a few off the cuff words he regretted for years.
 A lot happened from that day to the 2017 GE but I can't think of anything Corbyn said that influenced public opinion on Brexit, I can think of many things May and the Torys said that won over voters, the only people who had any influence were remain campaigners who saw no other option but to vote Labour to stop Mays Brexit. many held their nose and voted Labour with suspicion.
Corbyns brexit arguments were about the UK being a off shore tax haven didn't have much impact. true but nothing said with the conviction of a politician who feared brexit.
Owen Smiths speeches were hardly noticed as he was a backbencher. short video below of a typical Smith speech. interesting comments. many don't know who he was and whether he still around but they are very impressed.
Never say you weren't warned the poster says. pity he never had the chance to be more high profile as he had all the qualities of a great leader we needed at the time. Intelligence, foresight. guts. decency.

Brexit Bin 🇪🇺🕊🇺🇦 #BrexitReality on Twitter: "In case you missed it ... Never say you weren't warned. https://t.co/5pwUA4VCv1" / Twitter

Duped into a peoples vote or dragged kicking and screaming towards a peoples vote. people saw it as being dragged kicking and screaming, problem by then was nobody trusted him. they had hope in 2017 but they knew he was sitting on the fence allowing Brexit to happen. Corbyn went on interview after interview denying Labour members and voters support another referendum. McCluskey as usual said some nasty things to defend Corbyns stance refusing to accept most Labour members + voters are for a referendum. Corbyn had lost the arguments. had no influence on public opinion and lost the trust of millions by 2019.

Can we not mention that twat here please

As much to blame for Brexit as anyone

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Has RAWK accepted that one Brexit thread is better than 2? I think Andy needs to add a poll.

I asked a question over recent experiences about how other news sources are reporting stuff

I have no objections with merging this thread

[Yorkykopite]

I think it should be merged, especially as there's no cheese option.

[Kenny's Jacket]

And it certainly didn't consolidate the Remain vote behind Labour, which is what Corbyn had to do if he wanted to oust the Tories.

The popular vote in the '19 GE was closer between Lab/Con was closer than the seats won indicates.  Its interesting that Lab/LD popular vote equalled that of the Tories, but Farrage' deal with the Tories was a major help, where as lab/LD split the remain vote.  So . Its worth remembering that The Brexit party won the popular vote in the 2019 European election.  Im not sure thats true/fair.

I don't think it attracted any Brexiteers - working class or otherwise 

Corbyn increased Labour's share of the vote more than any other leader in any other election since 1945.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/corbyn-gives-labour-biggest-vote-share-increase-since-1945-48703/

I was out of the countrry during Millibands leadership , but will make an assumption that part of that swing from milliband would be the working class future brexiteers (based on nothing but the fact Millie came across as posh)
He then of course lost these voters in 2019 running the election on the 2nd referendum policy which he didnt want.

We currently have Brexit and a vast Tory majority.  We could have at the least Brexit and a small Tory majority.  \
If you want to put the boot into him, you could argue he wasnt strong enough as a Leader to stop his Shadow Brexit secretary from alienating the white working class and thus ensuring a Tory landslide.

[Yorkykopite]

Its interesting that Lab/LD popular vote equalled that of the Tories

That's right. In fact it was greater.

Had the then leader of the Labour party been a Remainer rather than an enthusiastic Brexiteer the Tories would have been beaten.

[Sangria]

The popular vote in the '19 GE was closer between Lab/Con was closer than the seats won indicates.  Its interesting that Lab/LD popular vote equalled that of the Tories, but Farrage' deal with the Tories was a major help, where as lab/LD split the remain vote.  So . Its worth remembering that The Brexit party won the popular vote in the 2019 European election.  Im not sure thats true/fair.

Corbyn increased Labour's share of the vote more than any other leader in any other election since 1945.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/corbyn-gives-labour-biggest-vote-share-increase-since-1945-48703/

I was out of the countrry during Millibands leadership , but will make an assumption that part of that swing from milliband would be the working class future brexiteers (based on nothing but the fact Millie came across as posh)
He then of course lost these voters in 2019 running the election on the 2nd referendum policy which he didnt want.

We currently have Brexit and a vast Tory majority.  We could have at the least Brexit and a small Tory majority.  \
If you want to put the boot into him, you could argue he wasnt strong enough as a Leader to stop his Shadow Brexit secretary from alienating the white working class and thus ensuring a Tory landslide.

It's fairer to say that the increased Labour vote was the consolidation of the Remain vote at a time when Brexit was still raw. 2019 was the dissipation of the Remain vote and a return to party politics.

[Dr. Beaker]

...Just c*nts.

Most of the media have been derelict in their duties to the public. Though, things like how libel laws operate, and how foreign ownership of national media outlets is allowed is, ultimately, the responsibility of all citizens.

All good points - especially the first one.

[Kenny's Jacket]

That's right. In fact it was greater.

Had the then leader of the Labour party been a Remainer rather than an enthusiastic Brexiteer the Tories would have been beaten.

No mate. 

[Kenny's Jacket]

It's fairer to say that the increased Labour vote was the consolidation of the Remain vote at a time when Brexit was still raw. 2019 was the dissipation of the Remain vote and a return to party politics.

He called for Article 50 a day after the referendum,  please be sensible

[TepidT2O]

He called for Article 50 a day after the referendum,  please be sensible

I think both can be true though

[Dr. Beaker]

He called for Article 50 a day after the referendum,  please be sensible

A good cynical and pragmatic Labour leader should have done the same thing, to show the total lack of preparedness amongst the tories. Sadly Corbo was just getting it wrong.

[TSC]

The recent failure of Banks in his legal action for libel against Cadwalladr is reason enough why Brexit shouldn’t be accepted.  The piece in yesterday’s Observer goes into more detail but the below will suffice

https://pressgazette.co.uk/carole-cadwalladr-arron-banks-libel/

The links of Russia to Brexit and by extension to the Boris cabal arguably warrant detailed investigation.  Where’s the Russian report Boris?

[Yorkykopite]

No mate. 

Well, yeah, now you put it like that....

[Sangria]

He called for Article 50 a day after the referendum,  please be sensible

Which was why it dissipated after 2017. There was still a hope that some kind of resistance could be held against Brexit, a year after the referendum. That vague but still fresh hope from 2017 had gone by 2019, when there was some realisation that it was only a matter of time, that Leavers' minds had hardened in the meantime. The 2019 Euro elections was one last thrash against the dying of the light, but it was fairly clear to anyone who would look that the light was dying. To me, the last hope was gone when even Ken Clarke was saying that Brexit had to be enacted but that we should look to mitigate it.

[Sangria]

The recent failure of Banks in his legal action for libel against Cadwalladr is reason enough why Brexit shouldn’t be accepted.  The piece in yesterday’s Observer goes into more detail but the below will suffice

https://pressgazette.co.uk/carole-cadwalladr-arron-banks-libel/

The links of Russia to Brexit and by extension to the Boris cabal arguably warrant detailed investigation.  Where’s the Russian report Boris?

Brexit isn't about arguments, legality or the dodginess of its backers any more. It's become an identity thing, the definition of Englishness. Everything, even the United Kingdom, can go hang in pursuit of Brexit. Brexit will become passe when that mood passes. Outside liberals, I don't see that mood passing as of yet.

[oldfordie]

In part of your 1st post in this thread, you said this

Wanting Labour to plan to do something if/when they regain power but not tell voters of those intentions beforehand is wanting Labour to be dishonest.

Part of your 2nd post said this

Regarding the bit in bold, I could give the benefit of the doubt in being willing to accept that there may arguably be a distinction between being dishonest and lying.

I.e. Labour, as is its current policy, explicitly stating it will not seek to rejoin the Single Market only to subsequently seek to rejoin as soon as it's back in power would be a lie. It'd be doing exactly what it said it would not.

On the other hand, Labour not publicly committing to rejoin the Single Market but publicly not ruling it out either, even if privately it has already made the decision to seek to rejoin is dishonest in the sense they're saying 1 thing publicly and another thing privately. However it's not necessarily a lie as the public statements do not contradict the private thinking.

I don't think the type of Brexity, Red Wall type voters Labour are obviously desperate to win back will appreciate such an possible distinction, speaking of which...

Labour doing anything other than explicitly ruling out SM membership could be argued as giving Leave voters a reason not to support Labour/doing Johnson a favour. However in this thread (as quoted above), and in the main Brexit thread, you've said you want Labour to not rule out SM membership. So which side do you lean more towards? Labour saying/doing what is necessary to remedy the effects of Brexit (which means not ruling out SM membership) or Labour making themselves as theoretically electable as possible (by ruling out SM membership thus giving Johnson one less stick to beat the party with)? Labour can't both publicly rule out seeking SM membership and publicly leave open the possibility. It has to decide to do one or the other but it feels we're back yet again at a point where Labour and its supporters want to have their cake and eat it.

Your making assumptions and then jumping to the wrong conclusions.
I said the implications not their intentions. Labour have made their intentions clear, they intend to negotiate a closer relationship with the EU to over come all the problems. one thing I am not is a hypocrite arguing Labour should lie to voters or Labour should con voters
I don't think you know what I mean by the implications so I will explain.
I think most people on here understand the solutions to over coming the trading barriers Brexit has brought,  we were discussing this 6yrs ago.
 We are still following EU rules now and we will still be following EU rules, regulations and standards for decades to come, the more rules and regulations we agree too the easier trade between the UK +EU becomes. this is what a closer relationship means.
The implications you assumed were some sort of con job is the Torys arguing we might as well be in the EU if we still want to follow EU rules and regulations and standards.
That argument has to be made by the Torys, let them.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Well, yeah, now you put it like that....

Sorry for the short reply, buy anything else would have just got repetitive.

[Tokyoite]

It's pretty depressing. I've also binned some people I went to Uni with as they were "proud Brexiteers".
I was contemplating going back to the UK with the girlfriend in a few years but at this point in time, if nothing changes, it will be pure madness to leave Japan for the UK.

Can only hope all the racist twats in the government fuck off asap but that looks very unlikely.

[Indomitable_Carp]

At this point living in Spain, I just have to sit back and laugh at all the Costa Blanca Brexiters who are now shocked that they have to wait in Passport queues when going on holiday. Even more absurd are the Brexiters with holiday or retirement homes who can´t now come and go as they please. Then you have the lazy Brexiters who couldn´t be arsed sorting their Spainish residency when part of the EU. And the even lazier Brexiters who couldn´t be arsed switching thier EU-Spanish residency to the post-Brexit Spanish residency, even though they made it very easy.

The attitude really does seem to have been "But we´re British!! Why would we have to wait in a passport queue or not be able to travel freely to Spain for 6 months of the year?"

I have not accepted Brexit. I am unlikely to do so. But thankfully having sorted my residency here, I don´t have to think too much about it now either.

[Kenny's Jacket]

At this point living in Spain, I just have to sit back and laugh at all the Costa Blanca Brexiters who are now shocked that they have to wait in Passport queues when going on holiday. Even more absurd are the Brexiters with holiday or retirement homes who can´t now come and go as they please. Then you have the lazy Brexiters who couldn´t be arsed sorting their Spainish residency when part of the EU. And the even lazier Brexiters who couldn´t be arsed switching thier EU-Spanish residency to the post-Brexit Spanish residency, even though they made it very easy.

The attitude really does seem to have been "But we´re British!! Why would we have to wait in a passport queue or not be able to travel freely to Spain for 6 months of the year?"

I have not accepted Brexit. I am unlikely to do so. But thankfully having sorted my residency here, I don´t have to think too much about it now either.

Well done mate, youre the first person in the world to identify a benefit of Brexit.