Topic: "Black Footballers' Association"

[vagabond]

This reminds me of the local university here having a 'coloured society'. As a white woman, my wife wasn't allowed to become a member. Somehow I feel that clashes with their stated goal of providing equality for everyone.

[Ron]

I don't understand what it is that this "Black Footballers' Association" wants to do.
Is it like a talk support group or do they want to go and prosecute people they feel are offenders ?

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

Stop it Andy, you are sounding like Digger - and what the hell would he know about these issues.

Proponents of critical race theory, of which we apparently have several of on this thread, do not share this vision of a colourblind society.

I guess old MLK with his "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." was just a bit of a choc ice really.

Well, the pacifist movement hasn't been successful, has it? Racism is still alive and well, and rather than stand tall, those who hold such views simply keep them to themselves. Does absolutely fuck all to solve the problem.

This helping bring it into the conscience of football in this country will hopefully bring about a debate as to why fucking helmets still hold their Neanderthal views.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

That is exactly it. The lawyer involved was involved in setting up both the black police union, and the black lawyers union. These people are not the Black Panthers, nor are they the nation of Islam. These organizations are organizations that black people or all non-white people belong to as well as their normal union. The purpose of these unions is primarily to ensure fair play for people from ethnic minority groups, and to push for issues of racial equality. It's sad that football has come to this point, but the typical way of telling if an industry needs this sort of thing, is the setting up of one of these organizations. If black players felt sufficiently represented by the FA, then there would be no need for this.

Surely the answer would be to improve the PFA (It's the PFA that represent the players). If the PFA is not up to scratch and not doing its job then bringing it up to scratch would appear sensible. The PFA is supposed to represent all players - although their witch-hunt against Suarez and the poor choice of those at the top clearly currently shows that isn't the case.

Adding a separate organisation is just divisive. One organisation for all players. One that does its job and actually works. If those in charge are not capable of running such an organisation then they must be removed. Adding more representatives from more ethnic and cultural backgrounds would again seem a sensible answer.

[GreatEx]

Well, the pacifist movement hasn't been successful, has it? Racism is still alive and well, and rather than stand tall, those who hold such views simply keep them to themselves. Does absolutely fuck all to solve the problem.

I'm sorry, are you saying that we in western society haven't advanced at all in matters of race relations since MLK gave his "dream" speech? That's an incredibly negative viewpoint, not to mention wildly inaccurate. If you'll excuse the pun, this issue is not at all black and white, and it's not like there are two possible outcomes: one where the world is completely colourblind and egalitarian, and the other where everyone is acting nice but quietly seething with racial hatred. The simple fact is that we have come a long way - minorities have a better deal than they did 50 years ago and far fewer people would believe black/Asian/whatever people to be an inferior race - but we still have plenty to do. This hardly makes MLK's pacifist movement a failure.

[Red_Isle_Chap]

Fair enough if they see the need to set this kinda thing up, that's their own prerogative and if it helps to eradicate the racism they feel still exists then good on em.

But, and please tell me if i'm way off here, isn't combating racism hurt when we shift from "Footballers" like they are today to a vast majority of people to "black footballers" which is what I personally see happening off the back of this? Am I wrong? In this day and age I honestly thought you weren't allowed to refer to people of darker skin as "black" anymore? I'm just an ignorant twat it seems, but i'm sure that calling someone "black" is racist?

Setting up a separate organisation which labels everyone who joins it as "black" and separate from everyone else just seems like a massive step backwards to me.  How do you stamp out wankers calling other human beings a "fucking black c*nt" when it's perfectly acceptable for players to call each other a "fucking c*nt" on the pitch and then you've separated yourself out under the term of "black footballer"??

Sorry i'm monumentally thick, and like I said I hope that this can get results against the racism they suffer each day, but I just don't see how setting up something with that title will help? It's not like commentators aren't going to mention it are they? "There's Rio Ferdinand, head of the "Black FA"......

No, i don't understand racism, sorry.

Surely the answer would be to improve the PFA (It's the PFA that represent the players). If the PFA is not up to scratch and not doing its job then bringing it up to scratch would appear sensible. The PFA is supposed to represent all players - although their witch-hunt against Suarez and the poor choice of those at the top clearly currently shows that isn't the case.

Adding a separate organisation is just divisive. One organisation for all players. One that does its job and actually works. If those in charge are not capable of running such an organisation then they must be removed. Adding more representatives from more ethnic and cultural backgrounds would again seem a sensible answer.

Totally agree with Andy here.

[mactifosi]

I can certainly understand their frustrations but I think they should go on strike rather than form a breakaway group.
In my opinion the players should be standing up for much harsher punishments for all forms of bigotry.

The FA, UEFA and FIFA do not act against racism, there are far more serious punishments for impinging on their sponsors, it's purely lip service for soundbites and votes.

Take Spain for example, we have seen many cases of racism with the national team's supporters and even a former manager.
They have merely been fined pitiful amounts, no points docked etc, there is no incentive for them to clean up their act.

Bendter was far more heavily punished for advertising Paddy Power than the Spanish fans who admitted to racially abusing black players.

[west_london_red]

Will they let Suarez join? He has a black grand father so I dont see why he should be allowed in, or is 1/4 black not black enough? Do we need an association for asian players too?

This black association is an absolutly stupid and counter productive idea

[xavidub]

The history of human rights struggles pretty much everywhere proves that relying upon avuncular members of the powerful to vindicate the rights of the oppressed works about as well as relying upon Foxes to decide that they have had enough Chickens.

Most groups who feel marginalised eventually have to organise and defend their own rights if they want change. The FA could have avoided this, but didn't. The fault lies with the FA.

So good luck to them.

And no doubt they will be vociferously supportive whenever Gay footballers feel the need to do the same thing.

[Fruity]

The history of human rights struggles pretty much everywhere proves that relying upon avuncular members of the powerful to vindicate the rights of the oppressed works about as well as relying upon Foxes to decide that they have had enough Chickens.

Most groups who feel marginalised eventually have to organise and defend their own rights if they want change. The FA could have avoided this, but didn't. The fault lies with the FA.

So good luck to them.

And no doubt they will be vociferously supportive whenever Gay footballers feel the need to do the same thing.

I agree. The FA have shown their values when it comes to racism. Whilst we could hope there is a PFA that suits all players from whatever race - the reality is I guess certain black players feel disenchanted.
Having a separate organisation for the rights of black people is not a new thing and for the most part it has generally worked. I really don't see what the issue is. People say its divisive but whats more divisive is not having a voice at all and I guess a number of players feel that is the case at the moment. The organisation will only be as good as the people who run it but for now the idea is a good one.

[TheTeflonJohn]

Will they let Suarez join? He has a black grand father so I dont see why he should be allowed in, or is 1/4 black not black enough? Do we need an association for asian players too?

This black association is an absolutly stupid and counter productive idea

Maybe DNA tests are the way forward to prove ones blackness. This is ridiculous. What do these people want. They are already proving divisive with this.

Lets have a white league, a white FA, a white section for fans. Can I propose that? Can I fuck and I never would. Never mind football, this country in general has made huge strides in the last 20 years or so to educate the masses and change peoples general perception of racism.

Racism is still there and it always will be. It`s part of some peoples human nature. Just like it is for a violent person to become violent, or a paedophile, a rapist or a serial killer. It will never ever be fully eradicated because you can`t eradicate human nature. You can teach people who have been led by the views of society or others (as we have done with ourselves in this country), but to think you can totally stamp it out is extremely naive.

I`ve suffered discrimination because of my accent and where I live. I`m a white Scouser and I`ve been knocked back for jobs down south and have twice been told by two different companies that they would never take a Scouser on. I`ve been called a doleite, a thief, a workshy fucker many times over the years. At times it hurts but fuck me I just get on with it because I know I would never be able to change peoples entrenched views of me.

Maybe myself and some of my fellow white scousers should set up a "White Scousers Liberation Front" or something and march on Parliament.

[xavidub]

Maybe DNA tests are the way forward to prove ones blackness. This is ridiculous. What do these people want. They are already proving divisive with this.

Lets have a white league, a white FA, a white section for fans. Can I propose that? Can I fuck and I never would. Never mind football, this country in general has made huge strides in the last 20 years or so to educate the masses and change peoples general perception of racism.

There is a white FA.

It's called the FA.

[Fruity]

Maybe DNA tests are the way forward to prove ones blackness. This is ridiculous. What do these people want. They are already proving divisive with this.

Lets have a white league, a white FA, a white section for fans. Can I propose that? Can I fuck and I never would. Never mind football, this country in general has made huge strides in the last 20 years or so to educate the masses and change peoples general perception of racism.

Racism is still there and it always will be. It`s part of some peoples human nature. Just like it is for a violent person to become violent, or a paedophile, a rapist or a serial killer. It will never ever be fully eradicated because you can`t eradicate human nature. You can teach people who have been led by the views of society or others (as we have done with ourselves in this country), but to think you can totally stamp it out is extremely naive.

I`ve suffered discrimination because of my accent and where I live. I`m a white Scouser and I`ve been knocked back for jobs down south and have twice been told by two different companies that they would never take a Scouser on. I`ve been called a doleite, a thief, a workshy fucker many times over the years. At times it hurts but fuck me I just get on with it because I know I would never be able to change peoples entrenched views of me.

Maybe myself and some of my fellow white scousers should set up a "White Scousers Liberation Front" or something and march on Parliament.

Whilst I'm sorry you have suffered some sort of discrimination because you moved south at least you know you will be safe from it in liverpool.

There are two posts that have become extremely relevant in this thread.

The first was by Jambutty on page 1. and the 2nd by MichaelA i believe on page 2.

And on that note I am out.

[Solomon Grundy]

If black footballers feel there is an issue, then there is an issue.

That's not necessarily the case. A few of them have just got a huge chip on their shoulders.

Do you seriously believe that Muslims are treated equally in this country?

I actually think they're treated better in some circumstances. Certainly by the government and local authorities anyway.

[Redman0151]

Imagine someone suggested a white FA, they'd be banned from the game for life.

Anyone suggesting quotas of black managers deserves to be shot in the head, I highly doubt when the owners only care about making a profit they give a fuck about their managers skin colour. You don't see a quota of white people in the 100m final in the Olympics or a quota of black people in the swimming. Best people get the best jobs

[TheTeflonJohn]

There is a white FA.

It's called the FA.

Yes your right. The FA is run by old knobheads who are white but this is not the way to challenge that. It just provides an us and them mentality which will turn the clock on many years of hard work in this country to change peoples perception of racism. I think the fact the that one of the main driving forces in this (Rio) has been charged with abusing a fellow black man of being a choc ice does not help the cause.

[The 5th Benitle]

Stay on topic please guys

[Redman0151]

There's been 2 cases of racism and we personally know all about the Suarez incident.

This whole bollocks has been kicked off by the media wanting to fill up back pages and make it a big deal.

Racism in English football hardly exists anymore, if you tried to shout a racial slur at most grounds in the country you'd probably either get twatted by someone nearby or have someone tell the stewards to remove you

[TheTeflonJohn]

I feel that this BFA thing will set back many years of hard work done in this country. Football is our national sport and could not have a bigger audience in this country. With so many people watching it would help to start reversing peoples views on racism. An us and them mentality.

If this goes ahead do you think that the majority would have sympathy for black players or will this help to harbour a divide?

[The 5th Benitle]

Sorry guys but there isn't really much discussion of the association going on.

[The 5th Benitle]

OK tidied up and reopened - please stick to discussion of the new Association and don't go off on tangents. Cheers

[Swansea Red]

Football as we once knew it is no more. It's a dying sport.

It's really not.

[jambutty]

OK tidied up and reopened - please stick to discussion of the new Association and don't go off on tangents. Cheers

If perceived racism is the reason behind the association, is discussing racism a tangent?

[Hazell]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/9630257/PFA-announce-six-point-plan-to-tackle-racism-in-football.html

Taylor outlined the PFA's action plan in a statement to the Press Association. The plan calls for:

1 Speeding up the process of dealing with reported racist abuse with close monitoring of any incidents.

2 Consideration of stiffer penalties for racist abuse and to include an equality awareness programme for culprits and clubs involved.

3 An English form of the 'Rooney rule' - introduced by the NFL in America in 2003 - to make sure qualified black coaches are on interview lists for job vacancies.

4 The proportion of black coaches and managers to be monitored and any inequality or progress highlighted.

5 Racial abuse to be considered gross misconduct in player and coach contracts (and therefore potentially a sackable offence).

6 To not to lose sight of other equality issues such as gender, sexual orientation, disability, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia and Asians in football.

[The 5th Benitle]

If perceived racism is the reason behind the association, is discussing racism a tangent?

Not necessarily mate but you can't deny the discussion earlier went off topic re: Muslims, what does 'coloured' mean, etc etc.
Perceived racism in football - bang on topic.

[BIGGERSTEVO]

This just seems totally devisive , and a complete over reaction to what I'm not sure , Terry's 4 game ban ? Suarez's 8 game ban ? The serbian FA ? Tom Adeyebe ( which wasn't racism anyway ) ? The idiot in the centenary at Anfield against the mancs ? Rio's choc ice comments ?

What exactly do they want ? Take Suarez for example , are they happy with the 8 game ban or not ? If not what would they find acceptable . 15 games ? 25 ? A full season ? Life ? How much can you punish someone for calling them a name in the heat of the moment albeit with reference to skin colour ?

Is that what this union is going to be for ? To lobby the FA and put on pressure to give out longer bans in the likes of the Terry and Suarez case .

As far as I can see all this will do is create division and put the whole racism cause back a few years .

[GBF]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/9630257/PFA-announce-six-point-plan-to-tackle-racism-in-football.html

Taylor outlined the PFA's action plan in a statement to the Press Association. The plan calls for:

1 Speeding up the process of dealing with reported racist abuse with close monitoring of any incidents.

2 Consideration of stiffer penalties for racist abuse and to include an equality awareness programme for culprits and clubs involved.

3 An English form of the 'Rooney rule' - introduced by the NFL in America in 2003 - to make sure qualified black coaches are on interview lists for job vacancies.

4 The proportion of black coaches and managers to be monitored and any inequality or progress highlighted.

5 Racial abuse to be considered gross misconduct in player and coach contracts (and therefore potentially a sackable offence).

6 To not to lose sight of other equality issues such as gender, sexual orientation, disability, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia and Asians in football.

their points contradict with each other.  Why not consider women, asian, latinos, igloo people, etc for the vacancies?

[RedHopper]

Surely the answer would be to improve the PFA (It's the PFA that represent the players). If the PFA is not up to scratch and not doing its job then bringing it up to scratch would appear sensible. The PFA is supposed to represent all players - although their witch-hunt against Suarez and the poor choice of those at the top clearly currently shows that isn't the case.

Adding a separate organisation is just divisive. One organisation for all players. One that does its job and actually works. If those in charge are not capable of running such an organisation then they must be removed. Adding more representatives from more ethnic and cultural backgrounds would again seem a sensible answer.

I think to be honest that you are essentially missing the point of what these organizations do. The Black policemans association exists perfectly happily alongside the police federation. The Black lawyers association exists perfectly happy alongside the ordinary lawyer representative organisations. It's not about splitting, it's about being a separate player union. it's about  having a body that speaks for black and ethnic minority players on topics that directly affect them just because of their skin colour. So you might see them being vocal on issues like on pitch racism, off pitch racism, making some headway in the incredibly white world of football organization, encouraging more black players to take coaching badges, including the asian community more in football which is the huge unspoken problem. 30% of Premiership footballers are black or mixed race. You can count the number of british asian players even down to academy level on one hand.  You might not hear very much on them from other wider topics that affect all people.

The point is that at the moment black players are represented by the PFA, which is obliged to represent all of football, and kick it out which is dependent on the FA and the premiership for its funding, and the experience of Supporters Direct would suggest that if you kick up too much of a fuss, these people will withhold your funding. There is no body to speak unambiguously in their interests when something like this comes up, and that is what you are seeing with this protest.

Ultimately if there was no need for this organization, then people wouldn't be talking about setting it up. It's up to players from ethnic minorities to decide if they want stronger representation, and It's not really for other people to pass judgement.

What I don't understand is what this has to do with Rio Ferdinand, as a number of newspapers suggested.

[RedHopper]

Racism in English football is practically nonexistent compared to a lot of countries on the continent, honestly what on earth do minority footballers have to worry about in this country? There aren't many black managers, fair enough, but what else? You've got a media that will create a witch hunt at the merest hint of any discriminatory language or behaviour, clubs that will ban fans on the spot forever for any chanting, and an FA that will bend over backwards to ensure that they are seen to be clamping down on it.

I hate how utterly false this subject has become. Everybody's opinion is about how far they can further their own fucking status, and it's sickening and has nothing to do with racism whatsoever.

I'm afraid that your signature is going to climb up and beat up your post

[jambutty]

Why not consider igloo people for the vacancies?

Careful.  They are God's frozen people.

[RedHopper]

their points contradict with each other.  Why not consider women, asian, latinos, igloo people, etc for the vacancies?

Because about 30% of premiership footballers, and a similar proportion down through the leagues are 'non-white'. They are massively underrepresented in management, and even minor coaching positions. The rooney rule doesn't force you to choose a black candidate, only that you interview at least one. It's still up to them to impress the panel and get the job, but at least they are getting the interview. The aim of it is to make it normal to interview black and minority candidates. If they don't get the job advertised, but impress, then they might find another position at a club, and get their foot in the door that way.

The issue of british asians is to do with them not being involved at all. The issue of retired professional british-asian football players trying to break into management isn't going to arise for another 20 years at least.

[Lenin.]

The Rooney Rule is, by nature, discrimanatory albeit positive discrimination. Whether thats a good or bad thing is a matter of opinion.

[Redman0151]

Because about 30% of premiership footballers, and a similar proportion down through the leagues are 'non-white'. They are massively underrepresented in management, and even minor coaching positions. The rooney rule doesn't force you to choose a black candidate, only that you interview at least one. It's still up to them to impress the panel and get the job, but at least they are getting the interview. The aim of it is to make it normal to interview black and minority candidates. If they don't get the job advertised, but impress, then they might find another position at a club, and get their foot in the door that way.

The issue of british asians is to do with them not being involved at all. The issue of retired professional british-asian football players trying to break into management isn't going to arise for another 20 years at least.

This rule implies there's an issue with black people getting ignored for positions in football which I highly doubt is true. Owners care about money, if they thought a black manager was right for earning most money they'd take that option.

If you have to have a black interviewee then it's only fair you have an Asian, a Muslim, a Hispanic, a female and a disabled interviewee. See how it gets stupid, owners then have to do a bunch of interviews to people nowhere near qualified simply because of what race or minority they are, which in itself is discriminatory

[MichaelA]

As far as I can see all this will do is create division and put the whole racism cause back a few years .

Or maybe it's the push that is required to truly Kick Racism Out of Football?


Mainstream footballing institutions are complacently paying lip service to a conveniently pliable charity, which - to prove that igniorance is colour blind - is run by spineless idiots like Lord Herman Ouseley in one instance, and Clarke Carlisle on the other.

A stronger and more combative PFA might, maybe, who knows, have stood up for Luis Suarez, would certainly have taken Rio Ferdinand to task, and would not have allowed the John Terry/Anton Ferdinand situation to drag on for an entire year. But they didn't, because Gordon Taylor is a fat middle aged white man who knows even less than I (a fellow fat white male) know about racism and ignorance.

The content of this thread are a clear demonstration that not enough has been done, because some of the comments are rooted in the 1970's, and/or have a view of the world that is not consistent with the reality that black players and managers feel that they are facing every Saturday of the season. Some of that discontent may be ego driven, but to be honest, if I was Anton Ferdinand, I'd feel pretty aggrieved at the manner in which the Terry case has been handled.

[Il Capitano]

I'm afraid that your signature is going to climb up and beat up your post

Haha, oh dear you're seriously comparing the treatment of blacks in America in the 1960s and millionaire Premiership footballers in 2012 with no worries in their lives.

The quote is about the media anyway, it is still completely applicable today and I quoted it because it is apt.

[RedHopper]

This rule implies there's an issue with black people getting ignored for positions in football which I highly doubt is true. Owners care about money, if they thought a black manager was right for earning most money they'd take that option.

If you have to have a black interviewee then it's only fair you have an Asian, a Muslim, a Hispanic, a female and a disabled interviewee. See how it gets stupid, owners then have to do a bunch of interviews to people nowhere near qualified simply because of what race or minority they are, which in itself is discriminatory

well that is easily resolved by just defining it as having to interview one minority candidate. It's just a hell of a lot more likely that the minority candidate is going to be black or mixed race, rather than from any other minority because they constitute by far the biggest minority group in football. 

[west_london_red]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/9630257/PFA-announce-six-point-plan-to-tackle-racism-in-football.html

Taylor outlined the PFA's action plan in a statement to the Press Association. The plan calls for:

1 Speeding up the process of dealing with reported racist abuse with close monitoring of any incidents.

2 Consideration of stiffer penalties for racist abuse and to include an equality awareness programme for culprits and clubs involved.

3 An English form of the 'Rooney rule' - introduced by the NFL in America in 2003 - to make sure qualified black coaches are on interview lists for job vacancies.

4 The proportion of black coaches and managers to be monitored and any inequality or progress highlighted.

5 Racial abuse to be considered gross misconduct in player and coach contracts (and therefore potentially a sackable offence).

6 To not to lose sight of other equality issues such as gender, sexual orientation, disability, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia and Asians in football.

How about the point that was raised a lot of times during the Suarez saga - educate players  about the cultural nuances of the UK, that words acceptable in some cultures are not neccessarily acceptable here, and why not include players who have grown up here as well as those who have come from abroad.

Too many of thise points seem reactive rather then proactive. Also, not sure about the Rooney rule - there probably as many gay people in the country as there are from ethnic minorities, so why not interview at least one gay person for a job? The likes of Viv Anderson, John Barnes didnt get where they did with quotas in their era as players so not sure wht its needed for managers, they did because of their ability. And what if no black manager is hired because they are not deemed repeatedly good enough?

[jambutty]

Or maybe it's the push that is required to truly Kick Racism Out of Football?

And if it can be pushed (further) out of football, we'll be closer to kicking it out of society.

[Fruity]

Or maybe it's the push that is required to truly Kick Racism Out of Football?


Mainstream footballing institutions are complacently paying lip service to a conveniently pliable charity, which - to prove that igniorance is colour blind - is run by spineless idiots like Lord Herman Ouseley in one instance, and Clarke Carlisle on the other.

A stronger and more combative PFA might, maybe, who knows, have stood up for Luis Suarez, would certainly have taken Rio Ferdinand to task, and would not have allowed the John Terry/Anton Ferdinand situation to drag on for an entire year. But they didn't, because Gordon Taylor is a fat middle aged white man who knows even less than I (a fellow fat white male) know about racism and ignorance.

The content of this thread are a clear demonstration that not enough has been done, because some of the comments are rooted in the 1970's, and/or have a view of the world that is not consistent with the reality that black players and managers feel that they are facing every Saturday of the season. Some of that discontent may be ego driven, but to be honest, if I was Anton Ferdinand, I'd feel pretty aggrieved at the manner in which the Terry case has been handled.

See I don't want it to come across as "Mod love" but I agree wholeheartedly with this post.

Sometimes you have to accept that maybe you are commenting on something you have very little understanding of and just leave it at that.

The fear for this idea is bordering on xenophobia and that is being polite. If its well run then I cannot see the harm.

[RedHopper]

Haha, oh dear you're seriously comparing the treatment of blacks in America in the 1960s and millionaire Premiership footballers in 2012 with no worries in their lives.

The quote is about the media anyway, it is still completely applicable today and I quoted it because it is apt.

hmm, I don't think you can pick and choose from malcolm X. He wouldn't be keen. He's an all or nothing kind of guy. He said a lot of very impressive and cool things, but he also said an awful lot of awful things as well.

And I'm not comparing the premiership to the jim crow laws. The point that malcolm X is making in that clip is that black people are not going to get proper justice relying on the beneficence of the White authority, but have to make their own voice heard, and seize their own destiny. I suppose that while the details are very different, it's the same logic that is underpinning this talk of a black footballers association.