Author Topic: Sarah Everard* Update Jan 2023 - Met Police rapist.  (Read 72785 times)

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #120 on: March 12, 2021, 02:12:35 pm »
you are right spion mate but i think the fact that a thread about women's safety is being hijacked by men saying what about us too?

those posts are missing the point and are not expanding the debate of this thread - they are diluting it

If this is aimed at me then I'm not trying to hijack the thread and make it about us too. All I was trying to convey was that it's not something exclusive to males. The exclusivity is the danger felt by women when it happens. I was wondering what could be done about that.
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #121 on: March 12, 2021, 02:14:18 pm »
you are right spion mate but i think the fact that a thread about women's safety is being hijacked by men saying what about us too?

those posts are missing the point and are not expanding the debate of this thread - they are diluting it
Oh, I agree there. I'm just saying that it always happens like this in my experience. It doesn't seem to matter how the opening post is framed. It always tends to go off piste unfortunately.

Hopefully, other aspects can be discussed in another thread if people feel inclined, and this one stays focused on the stark reality of what Sian has highlighted. Her thread deserves much respect.

Edit: I'm not saying any individual has hijacked here. Just saying that the topic always expands to its wider contexts. Quite natural for that to happen too, but I hope it sticks more with Sian's content here.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 02:18:18 pm by Son of Spion* »
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Offline Hij

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #122 on: March 12, 2021, 02:17:29 pm »
Remains confirmed as Sarah’s. May she rest in peace, my heart is broken for her and her family and friends.
Damn. :(
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #123 on: March 12, 2021, 02:22:31 pm »
Remains confirmed as Sarah’s. May she rest in peace, my heart is broken for her and her family and friends.
Leaves me speechless.

RIP Sarah
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Offline RyanBabel19

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #124 on: March 12, 2021, 02:34:08 pm »
On a basic level, if I see someone I think is attractive, I wouldn’t dream of just walking up to them completely cold and asking for their number or trying to give them mine. I wouldn’t dream of grabbing their arse, or any other body part, or blocking their path on the pavement, or shouting something out to them. That seems like basic humanity to me, so we can start with that, and as I mentioned before - people need to start calling their mates out on this, because everyone has mates who do stuff like that.

It gets more difficult beyond that. I don’t want men to feel like they have to cross the road or take longer routes home to avoid making women feel uncomfortable, but on the other hand, women cross the road or take longer routes home to avoid danger as a matter of course. Pretty much every inconvenience “threatened” on men when this subject is brought up is an inconvenience that is part of women’s daily lives, and I cannot stress that enough. You don’t want to alter your behaviour? Neither do I, but I’ve been doing it for fucking 20 years.

I agree but at the same time, these are the obvious things. I dont feel men get it wrong with these without realising these are harrassing, i'm speaking in regards to the things that are less recognisable, this highlights my earlier point in that as a man... sometimes I cant recognise these things without being educated on them by someone that suffers from it. I cant act on something I am not privvy to as I cant recognise it without being shown. That is where I think women can come into the helping part. I suffer racism in many forms, but will only ever expect assitance with it from those who I know can recognise certain things said to me as wrong because they've been shown its wrong. For me to get mad at a friend for not commenting on a racist comment he doesn't recognise is me holding him to a standard he'll likely never reach.

Again I will likely never get it completely right as i'm not in the position to always know without educating from a victim of some of these things, I can only educate myself so much as a man without assitance.

Offline TSC

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #125 on: March 12, 2021, 02:38:09 pm »
The exclusivity is the danger felt by women when it happens. I was wondering what could be done about that.

Stop abduction and murder?

Offline Welshred

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #126 on: March 12, 2021, 02:48:34 pm »
I agree but at the same time, these are the obvious things. I dont feel men get it wrong with these without realising these are harrassing, i'm speaking in regards to the things that are less recognisable, this highlights my earlier point in that as a man... sometimes I cant recognise these things without being educated on them by someone that suffers from it. I cant act on something I am not privvy to as I cant recognise it without being shown. That is where I think women can come into the helping part. I suffer racism in many forms, but will only ever expect assitance with it from those who I know can recognise certain things said to me as wrong because they've been shown its wrong. For me to get mad at a friend for not commenting on a racist comment he doesn't recognise is me holding him to a standard he'll likely never reach.

Again I will likely never get it completely right as i'm not in the position to always know without educating from a victim of some of these things, I can only educate myself so much as a man without assitance.


The thing that's important here is that you're part of the demographic of men who will listen to women when they explain this to them. You're not the target here. The target is the equal or even bigger proportion of men than you who won't listen to what a woman says and just dismiss their opinions, that's where men need to take the lead because these people will only listen to a mans opinion which is part of the problem.


A whole culture change needs to happen around how men see women. Like Sian said when she sees a man she finds attractive she doesn't think about abducting or raping them but there are men who do and act on it. That needs to change.

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #127 on: March 12, 2021, 02:51:55 pm »
Stop abduction and murder?

Yes that's all well and good, but how do you propose to do that?
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline classycarra

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #128 on: March 12, 2021, 02:56:27 pm »
No it's not. I was saying that it happens to both sexes but one sex obviously feels endangered by it a lot more than the other.

They don't just feel more endangered, they are. Cold brutal statistics back this up in more or less every metric.

It's not a perception by women, it's an acknowledgement by women of (awful and shameful) objective facts.

Offline gregor

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #129 on: March 12, 2021, 02:59:41 pm »
When you're a little girl, the boys at primary school will try to look up your skirt. You don't really know why they do it, you're only 6, but you know it feels a bit weird. Maybe you tell your mum when you get home, maybe you don't. If you do tell her, maybe she'll say "boys will be boys", or maybe she'll sigh in resignation and tell you to ignore them. She's been there before. We all have.

When you're 11, 12, 13, the boys at secondary school ping your bra strap, sometimes undoing it completely. You'll be sat there trying to pay attention to the teacher, and then you'll feel a sharp snap followed by sniggering. Boys will be boys, and if you say anything, they'll be really horrible to you. It's not worth it. You're 15 now, it's summer, you take off your jumper and your Music teacher compliments you on the bra he can see through your school shirt. You have to stay behind with him to do your GCSE coursework. He compliments you on your haircut and says you look like a rockstar. You know that's not okay but he's a teacher, so how can you say anything? Your insides are squirming and you look at the clock on the wall, willing the seconds to speed up so you can get out of there.

When you walk home from school, sometimes cars beep at you. Sometimes men shout stuff out the window at you. When you're at uni, most days you get your arse grabbed on the bus. Once, you're sat in a beer garden reading a book and a man sits next to you and starts masturbating through his trousers, murmuring "let me come on you, please let me come on you". You quietly stand up, trying not to shake - with fear, with disgust - and you go inside and tell the lad on the bar. He kicks the man out and bars him, offers to call the police. You thank him but you tell him not to bother. He asks you if you're okay, you lie and say you are. You're grateful for his kindness.

The cold, dark night air feels like it's about to grow a pair of hands and grab you. You love listening to music when you walk, but headphones aren't a great idea for a woman. You're hyper-aware of your surroundings, every sound from the trees, every crunch of a twig. You texted your mate, your partner, your mum to tell them you're on the way. It's an unsaid thing, an implication that everyone understands. "I'm on my way" means "I'm on my way, if I'm not back when I should be, start to worry". You wish you could just live your life and do what you want to do without setting yourself curfews for your own safety, but it's been this way for as long as you can remember now.

There's a man walking behind you - quite far behind you - but you feel your heart rate start to pick up. Your hands are stuffed in your pockets, and you tighten your grip around the house keys which are poking out between your knuckles. Frankly, you don't know why you do it - how exactly would it help, it'd probably just make your attacker more angry - but you do it all the same, because it's kind of comforting. Your mind is racing with possible scenarios, escape routes, what might be about to happen to you. You hope you just get mugged or raped, and it doesn't go any further than that. Please, God, don't let it go any further than that... but if it does, please let it be quick.

The man - perhaps sensing your discomfort - crosses over to the other side of the road and calls someone, possibly his wife. You release the breath you didn't even realise you'd been holding, and then you start to feel bad. Bad, because you thought those awful things about someone you don't know - he could be a lovely fella, for all you know. Bad, because you can't walk the streets without picturing the awful things you think might be about to happen to you. Bad, because you're scared all the time. Bad, because for all the nice men out there, there's men like Sarah Everard's attacker. Like Libby Squires' attacker.

Then you get angry. And that's all life is, for a woman. Feeling scared, feeling bad, feeling angry. Scared, bad, angry in the knowledge that it could be you next time. Scared, bad, angry because women will continue to be killed by men until the fiery death of the universe, and there's not a thing to be done about it.

My thoughts are with Sarah Everard's family and friends.

I think this is the most powerful post I've ever seen on RAWK. I have to say that some stuff I've read over the last few days, on social media etc. from both female friends of mine and people I have never met, has really made me think. I am often out after dark walking my dogs, especially in the winter when it gets dark early. As a person I am always completely wrapped up in my own world, and when I'm out and about I pay very little attention to my surroundings and always, always have headphones on.. I now realise this is a luxury afforded to me because I'm male. I'm a fast walker and there will have no doubt been countless times where I have caught up with a woman who was walking ahead of me on a pavement. The thought of crossing over has simply never entered my head, as I say I'm a fast walker and I just power on. The thought that some of these women will have felt threatened by my presence is absolutely horrible, and I will always cross now if I'm able to.

The story is absolutely horrible and I hope these stories being told make men rethink their own behaviour. RIP Sarah.

Offline classycarra

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #130 on: March 12, 2021, 03:00:50 pm »
If this is aimed at me then I'm not trying to hijack the thread and make it about us too. All I was trying to convey was that it's not something exclusive to males. The exclusivity is the danger felt by women when it happens. I was wondering what could be done about that.

You're right it's not exclusive that males are only perpetrators of sexual assaults. But if anyone is of the view there is a remote similarity in problems they are painfully, and societally unhelpfully, misguided. The overwhelmingly vast majority of reported sexual violence is perpetrated against girls and women.

There is no equivalence (I'm not saying that you are saying there is, btw). But people who believe or espouse equivalence are muddying the waters of what is and should be an abundantly clear problem at whole-population level - the vast majority of women in our communities have been assaulted in various forms by men and boys
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 03:08:21 pm by Classycara »

Offline rob1966

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #131 on: March 12, 2021, 03:24:00 pm »

The thing that's important here is that you're part of the demographic of men who will listen to women when they explain this to them. You're not the target here. The target is the equal or even bigger proportion of men than you who won't listen to what a woman says and just dismiss their opinions, that's where men need to take the lead because these people will only listen to a mans opinion which is part of the problem.


A whole culture change needs to happen around how men see women. Like Sian said when she sees a man she finds attractive she doesn't think about abducting or raping them but there are men who do and act on it. That needs to change.

Not being defeatist, but how do you change that? What makes a man want to abduct and rape a woman, is it how they are born or how they are brought up?

I've just been told about the FB group Strike UK. There is a post on there where they have caught a 50 yr old married man, got kids, he's been chatting to what he believed where 13 yr old girls and basically groomed them to abuse them. I only know him through dealing with him at work, but I've got work mates who have known him for over 30 years and cannot believe what he has done, as they have never seen that behaviour in him, nor had any kind of odd feeling about him, its all "no way, he's a great fella". WTF goes on in there heads?
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Offline Welshred

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #132 on: March 12, 2021, 03:29:04 pm »
We're not born to do it Rob otherwise we'd all be doing it. You change it by educating and informing young boys on women's rights and how to treat them respectfully whilst at the same time challenging beliefs and behaviours of those who already have a negative view of women.

Offline TSC

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #133 on: March 12, 2021, 03:32:00 pm »
Yes that's all well and good, but how do you propose to do that?

As per thread title this is an extreme (sadly there are many others, eg Libby Squire) example of why women feel threatened.  However, the thread (and wider issue) is underpinned by the OP powerful chronological synopsis of personal experiences.  Experiences referred to reflect societal challenges. 

A first step is recognising the problem through empathy which posters generally have done as per responses in this thread.

Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #134 on: March 12, 2021, 03:44:55 pm »
Not being defeatist, but how do you change that? What makes a man want to abduct and rape a woman, is it how they are born or how they are brought up?

I've just been told about the FB group Strike UK. There is a post on there where they have caught a 50 yr old married man, got kids, he's been chatting to what he believed where 13 yr old girls and basically groomed them to abuse them. I only know him through dealing with him at work, but I've got work mates who have known him for over 30 years and cannot believe what he has done, as they have never seen that behaviour in him, nor had any kind of odd feeling about him, its all "no way, he's a great fella". WTF goes on in there heads?

On a practical level you could start with the police and criminal justice system (and indeed society in general) taking 'minor' sexual offences seriously, in terms of their investigation, their prosecution, sentencing and subsequent probation requirements. I don't think it is a great leap to suggest that both Sarah Everard and Libby Squire would still be alive today had things been done differently in the investigation of the preceding offending behaviour of their murderers - there's an interesting BBC article at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-55848743 re. the latter.

Offline rob1966

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #135 on: March 12, 2021, 03:54:33 pm »
On a practical level you could start with the police and criminal justice system (and indeed society in general) taking 'minor' sexual offences seriously, in terms of their investigation, their prosecution, sentencing and subsequent probation requirements. I don't think it is a great leap to suggest that both Sarah Everard and Libby Squire would still be alive today had things been done differently in the investigation of the preceding offending behaviour of their murderers - there's an interesting BBC article at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-55848743 re. the latter.

Totally agree. The sentences handed down are a joke and that is from those committing "minor" offences right up to full on rapists. Doesn't help when you have a PM who toadies up to a "man" who thinks its OK to "grab em by the pussy".
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Offline TSC

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #136 on: March 12, 2021, 04:16:53 pm »
This horrific crime appears to have sparked a wider debate.  Sky quoting WHO stats showing one in three women  are subject to violence.  760m women have experienced physical or sexual violence.

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Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #137 on: March 12, 2021, 04:25:08 pm »
My last post on this as I feel like I'm coming across badly here and it's better off if I keep quiet and listen after this.

In no way am I trying to make false equivalences here. I'm not doubting the statistics nor was my intention to undermine the very real threat of violence women face on an almost daily basis from men. It is real. When I said the word feeling I was intending to mean the feeling of being endangered in a situation like the one many women face on a daily basis. Not a feeling as in it's somehow made up or something someone has concocted in their heads. I was trying to say I have never felt that feeling myself. That's what I was trying to understand. The inner-body feeling of being endangered walking alone and a member of the opposite sex walks up behind you or against you.

Sian, thank you for your post, as I said previously it has shined a new light on this for me and given me a different perspective.

I will keep an eye on the thread for any suggestions as to what I can do or encourage other lads to do.

Apologies again for derailing the thread slightly.
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Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #138 on: March 12, 2021, 04:36:31 pm »
As many said dont want to hijack the thread from a moving OP as women will feel a threat in situations most guys dont think twice about but there was a gay bar in my old neighbourhood that a few girlfriends loved to go to on karaoke night. Great place to hang out for an hour or two even though I hated karaoke and when you went up to the packed bar with a few drunk lads who wanted to chat you up its then you suddenly get a wee insight in what us straight lads do to women when they are out. Its all a bit of a laugh until someone puts a hand on your knee or thigh or stand up against you as you order. The sudden discomfort is something women suffer way too often and worse unfortunately as in Sarah's case. RIP
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Offline Koplass

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #139 on: March 12, 2021, 04:37:24 pm »
Brilliant OP from Sian.

I have a niece who is 9 years old, the age that I was when I first got sexually harassed. Within the next couple of years she's going to start getting lewd comments from adult men on the street. She'll probably be beeped at, wolf whistled, curb crawled, cat called, she might be followed, she might be touched. She'll become very aware of the fact that men are a danger to her and that she will be expected to take responsibility for their behaviour even though she knows that nothing she could do could stop it.

I've seen lots of comments from men on this thread who are fathers and are (rightly) concerned for their daughters' safety. All of the above happened to me most frequently between the ages of 9-25 and I never once told my dad. Not because my dad isn't loving or approachable - he's the best and least sexist bloke that I know - but because I didn't want to worry him. He hasn't got a clue how scared or uncomfortable or ashamed I've been on hundreds of occasions. I'm in my mid-thirties now and it happens far less but even recently I got followed off a train at night whilst a man repeatedly told me to "fuck off" under his breath because I said I didn't want to go on a date with him. I don't tell my dad these things even as an adult because I want to protect him.

I just wanted to make that point because when women start telling their stories, there's always an element of shock/disbelief amongst men and that's understandable because the women and girls in your life probably aren't telling you what's happening to them. It's just worth being aware that this has or will happen to every woman you know, including your daughters. Be mindful that just because they haven't said it, doesn't mean everything's ok.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #140 on: March 12, 2021, 04:56:38 pm »
My last post on this as I feel like I'm coming across badly here and it's better off if I keep quiet and listen after this.

In no way am I trying to make false equivalences here. I'm not doubting the statistics nor was my intention to undermine the very real threat of violence women face on an almost daily basis from men. It is real. When I said the word feeling I was intending to mean the feeling of being endangered in a situation like the one many women face on a daily basis. Not a feeling as in it's somehow made up or something someone has concocted in their heads. I was trying to say I have never felt that feeling myself. That's what I was trying to understand. The inner-body feeling of being endangered walking alone and a member of the opposite sex walks up behind you or against you.

Sian, thank you for your post, as I said previously it has shined a new light on this for me and given me a different perspective.

I will keep an eye on the thread for any suggestions as to what I can do or encourage other lads to do.

Apologies again for derailing the thread slightly.
Likewise don't want to derail, but quick apology for misinterpreting use of the word feeling. The rest of my posts were generic and hypothetical, and not linked.

Offline Thepooloflife

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #141 on: March 12, 2021, 06:26:26 pm »
Remains confirmed as Sarah’s. May she rest in peace, my heart is broken for her and her family and friends.
Just awful - can't begin to imagine what her parents and family are going through. God bless Sarah - RIP.

Offline Thepooloflife

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #142 on: March 12, 2021, 06:59:22 pm »

The thing that's important here is that you're part of the demographic of men who will listen to women when they explain this to them. You're not the target here. The target is the equal or even bigger proportion of men than you who won't listen to what a woman says and just dismiss their opinions, that's where men need to take the lead because these people will only listen to a mans opinion which is part of the problem.


A whole culture change needs to happen around how men see women. Like Sian said when she sees a man she finds attractive she doesn't think about abducting or raping them but there are men who do and act on it. That needs to change.
Yep, agree. Without going off topic too far - but, for a start we need to stop exploiting women as objects of desire as in pornography, advertising etc and instead treat them as, well ya know, equals....by paying them equally for the same work, by not penalising them for having children, by educating our children around all the issues of gender, sex, relationships, respect etc, etc. But, these are big issues right - involving a big culture change as you say and maybe changes in employment practice which might affect, dare I say it, company profits. It involves govt action to legislate......governments and companies mostly run by men. But, we need to do it - men need to do it.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #143 on: March 12, 2021, 07:29:00 pm »
I’m always crossing over roads or walking as far to the other side of the footpath as possible to women who are alone, especially at night. I had no idea until this week that this should be a done thing, always assumed it was my own moral radar that was a bit too sensitive and that it would be mocked if I told anyone.

I’ve been doing it for years, it’s not difficult and costs no one anything. 
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Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #144 on: March 12, 2021, 07:31:13 pm »

The thing that's important here is that you're part of the demographic of men who will listen to women when they explain this to them. You're not the target here. The target is the equal or even bigger proportion of men than you who won't listen to what a woman says and just dismiss their opinions, that's where men need to take the lead because these people will only listen to a mans opinion which is part of the problem.


A whole culture change needs to happen around how men see women. Like Sian said when she sees a man she finds attractive she doesn't think about abducting or raping them but there are men who do and act on it. That needs to change.

This is it for me. The idea of what it is to be a man has been all wrong to me. I'll be honest, I grew up absolutely hating men due to various reasons, and I hated the model of masculinity pushed upon me by society. The thing is, thinking, feeling, caring and empathic men have long been frowned upon, and often by both sexes too. I have always identified far more with my supposed feminine side, probably because all the wise, knowledgeable, mature and sorted people I knew were female, and how they were resonated with me far more than the pathetically immature macho culture that is drummed into boys by society.

Sadly, prevailing culture paints men into a corner. Men in touch with deeper things get scorned by a culture that pushes a very emotionally immature model of male behaviour. Very few men I've ever known are genuinely emotionally mature. Many are very primitive when it comes to emotion, feelings, empathy etc. Many have never learnt these things, and many go to their graves with the emotional maturity levels of children. The idea of what it takes to be a man has long been toxic, and that shows. So many males are emotionally stunted, and this manifests in relationships, in attitudes, in pretty much every aspect of life actually.

It's extremely complex, but our own culture has sold men down the river. It's left so many confused, resentful, emotionally unable to cope and struggling for the understanding of others that nurtures empathy. This then plays out in how many men view women. When you are emotionally stunted, it's very easy to be intimidated by women. Ah, but men are constantly told they should be in control though. Men who feel inadequate can then go on to use their physicality in order to attempt to claw back the sense of control they feel they should have. This often ends very badly indeed. I'm yet to come across an abuser of women who wasn't also emotionally weak, fragile and who didn't feel inadequate. Their abuse is usually an attempt to gain a sense of control once more.

Society pushes a rather negative extreme as to what it is to be a man. It does it through TV, media etc and it's relentless. Males who don't fit this model get scorned. I was scorned for decades for trying to be thinking, sensitive and feeling rather than a gobshite. I suppose that's why virtually all of my friends are female even now. At least with these women I can be me and liked and loved for being so. I don't have to pretend to be a brainless macho moron around them. I suppose this is also a reason why I trained in counselling/therapy. People in it are emotionally mature, so I can swerve the mind-numbing macho culture in so many other kinds of work settings.

The bottom line for me is we have to be very careful as to what we teach our young people in society, because if we teach them dysfunction then it will manifest itself in numerous settings later on in life. Problem is, even today, if people are thoughtful and highlight these things, they are instantly shut down with accusations of ''snowflake!''

We aren't born like this. We learn these attitudes and approaches. We learn prejudice. We learn our feelings of inadequacy. Particularly when young, we are like sponges. If our prevailing culture peddles dysfunction, then how can we be surprised when we see the things we do? To be honest, I don't see much in the way of positive role models for males. That's sad for males, but also tragic for humanity too, because the emotional immaturity can manifest itself in so many negative ways.

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Offline Red Raw

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #145 on: March 12, 2021, 07:35:25 pm »
Marina Hyde in the Guardian highlights the terrifying don't-do-anything-don't-say-anything-about-it-ness of everyday harassment from an encounter yesterday.

What happened to me was nothing – the nothing women know all too well
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/12/what-happened-women-uk-harassed-street

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #146 on: March 12, 2021, 07:37:25 pm »
Yep, agree. Without going off topic too far - but, for a start we need to stop exploiting women as objects of desire as in pornography, advertising etc and instead treat them as, well ya know, equals....by paying them equally for the same work, by not penalising them for having children, by educating our children around all the issues of gender, sex, relationships, respect etc, etc. But, these are big issues right - involving a big culture change as you say and maybe changes in employment practice which might affect, dare I say it, company profits. It involves govt action to legislate......governments and companies mostly run by men. But, we need to do it - men need to do it.

This is it though, you are bang ON topic there.

It's these things and a lot more besides that shape attitudes, and it's attitudes that shape actions. That's why this topic is difficult to keep on one very straight line. Simply because what leads to the need for a thread like this is multi-faceted and runs right through our society. I mean what kind of message does society send out when it deems men worthy of more financial reward for doing the same job as a woman? It's this kind of drip-feed that leads to the wider notion that females are somehow inferior, and it's that notion that leads to some very unsavoury experiences women are faced with.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 07:39:01 pm by Son of Spion* »
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #147 on: March 12, 2021, 07:41:11 pm »
This is it for me. The idea of what it is to be a man has been all wrong to me. I'll be honest, I grew up absolutely hating men due to various reasons, and I hated the model of masculinity pushed upon me by society. The thing is, thinking, feeling, caring and empathic men have long been frowned upon, and often by both sexes too. I have always identified far more with my supposed feminine side, probably because all the wise, knowledgeable, mature and sorted people I knew were female, and how they were resonated with me far more than the pathetically immature macho culture that is drummed into boys by society.

Sadly, prevailing culture paints men into a corner. Men in touch with deeper things get scorned by a culture that pushes a very emotionally immature model of male behaviour. Very few men I've ever known are genuinely emotionally mature. Many are very primitive when it comes to emotion, feelings, empathy etc. Many have never learnt these things, and many go to their graves with the emotional maturity levels of children. The idea of what it takes to be a man has long been toxic, and that shows. So many males are emotionally stunted, and this manifests in relationships, in attitudes, in pretty much every aspect of life actually.

It's extremely complex, but our own culture has sold men down the river. It's left so many confused, resentful, emotionally unable to cope and struggling for the understanding of others that nurtures empathy. This then plays out in how many men view women. When you are emotionally stunted, it's very easy to be intimidated by women. Ah, but men are constantly told they should be in control though. Men who feel inadequate can then go on to use their physicality in order to attempt to claw back the sense of control they feel they should have. This often ends very badly indeed. I'm yet to come across an abuser of women who wasn't also emotionally weak, fragile and who didn't feel inadequate. Their abuse is usually an attempt to gain a sense of control once more.

Society pushes a rather negative extreme as to what it is to be a man. It does it through TV, media etc and it's relentless. Males who don't fit this model get scorned. I was scorned for decades for trying to be thinking, sensitive and feeling rather than a gobshite. I suppose that's why virtually all of my friends are female even now. At least with these women I can be me and liked and loved for being so. I don't have to pretend to be a brainless macho moron around them. I suppose this is also a reason why I trained in counselling/therapy. People in it are emotionally mature, so I can swerve the mind-numbing macho culture in so many other kinds of work settings.

The bottom line for me is we have to be very careful as to what we teach our young people in society, because if we teach them dysfunction then it will manifest itself in numerous settings later on in life. Problem is, even today, if people are thoughtful and highlight these things, they are instantly shut down with accusations of ''snowflake!''

We aren't born like this. We learn these attitudes and approaches. We learn prejudice. We learn our feelings of inadequacy. Particularly when young, we are like sponges. If our prevailing culture peddles dysfunction, then how can we be surprised when we see the things we do? To be honest, I don't see much in the way of positive role models for males. That's sad for males, but also tragic for humanity too, because the emotional immaturity can manifest itself in so many negative ways.


Good post SoS, as always.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #148 on: March 12, 2021, 08:10:17 pm »
I now realise this is a luxury afforded to me because I'm male.

 The thought that some of these women will have felt threatened by my presence is absolutely horrible, and I will always cross now if I'm able to.

Yep, the first point is a significant realisation all males should confront themselves with mate.
Re the combination of both points, I run round the park every day, and most days I'll pass a female walking ahead of me in the same direction. My immediate reaction every time is to make sure I don't scare her. I'll step in to the road and force cars to slow down or I'll say sorry when I'm about 2 yards behind.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #149 on: March 12, 2021, 08:36:36 pm »
On a basic level, if I see someone I think is attractive, I wouldn’t dream of just walking up to them completely cold and asking for their number or trying to give them mine. I wouldn’t dream of grabbing their arse, or any other body part, or blocking their path on the pavement, or shouting something out to them. That seems like basic humanity to me, so we can start with that, and as I mentioned before - people need to start calling their mates out on this, because everyone has mates who do stuff like that.

It gets more difficult beyond that. I don’t want men to feel like they have to cross the road or take longer routes home to avoid making women feel uncomfortable, but on the other hand, women cross the road or take longer routes home to avoid danger as a matter of course. Pretty much every inconvenience “threatened” on men when this subject is brought up is an inconvenience that is part of women’s daily lives, and I cannot stress that enough. You don’t want to alter your behaviour? Neither do I, but I’ve been doing it for fucking 20 years.

I think the first part of your post is mixing some totally acceptable behaviour with some stuff which is technically a criminal offence.

Walking over to someone you find attractive, in a non-threatening manner, in a busy place, there’s nothing wrong with that as long as you’re not being a weirdo about it. It’s not far off how I met my current fiancé, granted it was an indoor mini golf thing but the point I liked her, I struck up a conversation and here we are today. I’d never have dreamed of grabbing her arse, and obviously if she’d been walking home by herself I’d never have done it.

I’ve got no issue crossing the road if it makes someone feel more comfortable, I do it semi regularly and I’d do it if it was an elderly person or a young child, if it makes that person feel less intimidated. then sound.

What I don’t agree with are sweeping statements about ‘men’ and that it’s somehow wrong to point out that not every man is on a spectrum of sexual abusers, it’s fucking ridiculous and anyone coming out with shite like that needs to reel it in and be treated the same as any man who makes sexist comments.

As ever what is needed with this stuff long term education and a changing of attitude, not people using every opportunity to make the murder of a young woman about them (and for the record I am not suggesting for a moment that you’re doing that, but I’ve seen a lot of it recently.)

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #150 on: March 12, 2021, 08:43:33 pm »
I think the first part of your post is mixing some totally acceptable behaviour with some stuff which is technically a criminal offence.

Walking over to someone you find attractive, in a non-threatening manner, in a busy place, there’s nothing wrong with that as long as you’re not being a weirdo about it. It’s not far off how I met my current fiancé, granted it was an indoor mini golf thing but the point I liked her, I struck up a conversation and here we are today. I’d never have dreamed of grabbing her arse, and obviously if she’d been walking home by herself I’d never have done it.

I’ve got no issue crossing the road if it makes someone feel more comfortable, I do it semi regularly and I’d do it if it was an elderly person or a young child, if it makes that person feel less intimidated. then sound.

What I don’t agree with are sweeping statements about ‘men’ and that it’s somehow wrong to point out that not every man is on a spectrum of sexual abusers, it’s fucking ridiculous and anyone coming out with shite like that needs to reel it in and be treated the same as any man who makes sexist comments.

As ever what is needed with this stuff long term education and a changing of attitude, not people using every opportunity to make the murder of a young woman about them (and for the record I am not suggesting for a moment that you’re doing that, but I’ve seen a lot of it recently.)

I mean, I made a conscious effort to say "walking over to them completely cold", as in just walking straight up to someone and asking them for their number. Like when I was stood outside my work having a ciggy and a fella walked straight up to me and asked me for my number (he called me names when I said no). Obviously, there's a difference if you're making eye contact with someone etc. Obviously, I wasn't talking about that. Obviously.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #151 on: March 12, 2021, 08:48:29 pm »
I've found out today that WhatsApp do a live route map thing that means whoever you've sent it to can follow your movements so they know exactly where you, or your phone is if you're travelling home on your own.

I guess it's a start.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #152 on: March 12, 2021, 08:49:43 pm »
I remember the first time I realized how threatened women feel in public and it has stuck with me ever since and still makes my heart pump when I think about it.

It was about midnight one night, I was on a bus after work, pissing with rain, and I got off near a train station to catch a train. a girl I'd guess a couple years younger than me (19ish) got off at the same time and we both ran (because of the rain) towards the station. I was jogging behind her not giving much thought to anything other than getting out of the rain. I'll add this was the middle of winter too so I had a hat and big hoody on. As we got into the station and towards the stairwell the girl turned around and went to her knees cowering at the foot of the stairwell as I ran in behind her. At first I thought she'd hurt herself so I stopped and was like 'are you OK, did you fall?' to which she burst out crying in fear and said 'please, please don't hurt me'.

Fuck man that moment floored me, that she'd been running for her life for 30 seconds in her mind and I was just innocently jogging along not a care in the world. Obviously I helped her up and apologised that I'd even made her feel like that and in the end she was OK and I got on another carriage on the train.

It shocked me that this was the level of fear that women live with, especially walking around at night. Needless to say I have been uber conscious of my distances and physical appearance since then when any similar situations have arisen. We need to do better.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #153 on: March 12, 2021, 08:55:38 pm »
I mean, I made a conscious effort to say "walking over to them completely cold", as in just walking straight up to someone and asking them for their number. Like when I was stood outside my work having a ciggy and a fella walked straight up to me and asked me for my number (he called me names when I said no). Obviously, there's a difference if you're making eye contact with someone etc. Obviously, I wasn't talking about that. Obviously.

It wasn’t obvious to me, otherwise I wouldn’t have said it.

To me ‘cold’ means you’ve not spoken to them.

As ever it depends on the context, even walking up to someone and straight up asking for their number, in a busy bar, it’s probably likely to result in rejection but it’s unlikely to intimidate someone. If you do it at a secluded bus stop, then yeah.

The example you’re giving, again, it’s bordering on criminal behaviour. The definition of an assault is ‘putting someone in fear of their personal safety’ so anyone calling you names for rejecting their advances, it’s clearly unacceptable and probably criminal.

The point I’m trying to make in this is it’s totally possible to be completely appreciative of the fact that that there’s a definite need for change, and that as a society there isn’t enough focus on this, whilst not accepting sweeping statements about ‘men.’ I read something earlier from the Green Party leader mentioning a 6PM curfew for men, I mean shit like that is ridiculous and doesn’t help anything.




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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #154 on: March 12, 2021, 09:00:23 pm »
My mate is a journalist and was outside the police station they think he was at. Three ambulances turned up and one left with a police convoy. Not confirmed he was in it though.

Sorry to mix in the discussion of the case, with the more valuable wider discussion. Could almost do with two different threads.
He's smashed his head again.

How can you let him do it again?
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #155 on: March 12, 2021, 09:01:27 pm »
If this is aimed at me then I'm not trying to hijack the thread and make it about us too. All I was trying to convey was that it's not something exclusive to males. The exclusivity is the danger felt by women when it happens. I was wondering what could be done about that.

not aimed at you specifically but aimed at the way a thread/debate can lose its way
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #156 on: March 12, 2021, 09:03:06 pm »
He's smashed his head again.

How can you let him do it again?

They need to restrain him like Hannibal Lector. He's obviously trying to prepare his defence of insanity.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #157 on: March 12, 2021, 09:07:50 pm »
They need to restrain him like Hannibal Lector. He's obviously trying to prepare his defence of insanity.
I was reading a police reddit last night and they were saying that even before he did it the first time with a priority suspect like this there should be someone just sat by his door looking in at him. Though I guess you can get a couple done before they can get inside.  Not sure if it's out yet, but my mates playing poker with me and about to break the story.
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #158 on: March 12, 2021, 09:08:06 pm »
He's smashed his head again.

How can you let him do it again?

I think we all know the answer to this, don’t we? Clear as day just letting him do it so he doesn’t have to go to an actual prison.
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #159 on: March 12, 2021, 09:10:01 pm »
EXCLUSIVE: Wayne Couzens, the suspect in the Sarah Everard murder probe, was rushed to hospital for the second time in three days with a head injury sustained in custody today.

https://twitter.com/Express_Knowles/status/1370481223722733569

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