Author Topic: TWO finals in your first full season back...  (Read 36916 times)

Offline RyanBabel19

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #440 on: April 28, 2012, 11:21:08 am »
This season has been a strange one for me. I've been worried since the transfer window shut for three reasons 1.) I didn't feel the signings were good enough and the policy was bizarre 2.) We left MASSIVE gaps in the squad with the potential to come back and bite us and 3.) Other sides strengthened correctly and spent wisely.

For me the transfer policy was baffling, the end of last season was brilliant and it was so good to see kenny come in and do the opposite to the idiot in charge before and play to peoples strengths, the players looked confident, moved the ball quickly and we played fast atttacking football. The plan seemed to be to get back to basics and just get the ball down and play, alot of  movement from the attackers, we moved forward as a team and dropped back as a team... then came this season. Were you a non liverpool fan looking from the outside in, simply being told the style of football played by the team last season after Kenny took over, then shown the list of summer signings you would believe the playstyle adopted was a complete and utter failure and tactics needed a drastic change. Our transition between Kennys return and the slammin shut of the window to me just screamed 'if it aint broke...'

The football we played in that initial period was great, i wasn't deluding myself into thinking we were playing the best football  in the world but i was glad we were doing what was necessary, improving. To this day im baffled why we moved away from this and why we set a foundation just to knock it down in an instant. Was it the ONLY way for us to do well this season ? No.  But in my opinion it was our best option. The team had a solid base and just needed the dead wood shipping out, some of the positions strengthened, and some good backups capable of pushing the first choice players in the position e.g. Kelly is our second choice RB but he's great at pushing Johnson for that first choice spot, im not saying he's Glens equal but he provides competition for the position, who wouldnt want this spread across the team. Obviously its not incredibly easy to do this across the whole team but bit by bit with wise spending its achievable to build a strong squad.

In terms of the positions i felt needed more back up in summer my main two concerns were another striker and another defensive minded CM. The main reasons were the attack didn't look strong enough without one of either a pacey striker or a poacher and the centre didn't look like it would hold up were something to happen to Lucas. The two were huge gaps in the side in my view but many did what they always do and shrugged it off as 'we'll find a way to cope if/when the problem rears its head' it was the usual bury your head and hope the problem doesn't arise which in football is just asking for trouble.  All positions need cover and if they aren't covered it can be the difference between your season being exceptional and it imploding. The other thing was january, had we retified the problems then it wouldn't have been so bad but it just always looked
like we wouldn't spend to improve, obviously it depended on if we had money to spend but people just threw out excuses to go with whatever came from the club 'We may spend' was met with 'great we need changes' then as soon as it looked like we wouldn't all of a sudden some of those same people did a u-turn and we didn't need anything miraculously in a matter of days. Again it depends on the money available but to those who endlessly state how theres no value in the jan window... If you 'overspend' by a few million on a great player for a crucial position and it pushes you to a CL place, have you really overspent ?

That's obviously done now and we all know whats happened so far. I feel we failed ourselves in the window and i dont know exactly who was responsible, many seem to pin it solely on DC, a few blame kenny, some split it between the two and some blame the owners not backing the management. I have no idea what occured and i cant see it being revealed so i refuse to speculate, i dont understand when people talk asif they know for a fact who did what.

This season has had its ups and downs, the carling cup win was great for me, personally i didn't give a fuck about what anyone else had to say, we won a trophy after how many years without any ? And some laughed at us celebrating winning silverware. The FA cup run has also been great, another final in the same season is impressive and should we win that too i would be delighted. The league form has been worrying though, not just the actual league position but the way in which we ended up here, some of the effort from some of the players has been embarassing, i've seen some of them fail to do what i see done in sunday league week in week out and its infuriating, some of the tactics have been bad, at times we have persisted with things that clearly do not work and within these games by the time we make a change its too late. I cant help but feel alot of our problems could have been avoided with wiser spending and less stubbornness in the choices made across the season.

Some of our play has been great but the good goals and performances are too few and far between. We've had the same issues over and over and at times haven't helped ourselves. The treatment and use of some players has been baffling and has also contributed to our problems in my opinion. Kennys done some great things since coming back, great things, but i refuse to sit here and act asif he hasn't made some terrible choices too. He 100% needs to stay but he needs to make some changes aswell, some of the stubborn decisions to me have been wrong, i wont go into them unless someone specifically asks for my opinion which ones were wrong but to me at times some of the the choices in the matchday squads will have had the opposition breathing a sigh of relief.

Theres so much more to be said but to me it feels like we dont learn from our mistakes enough. Im tired of raising some of the same issues, its like banging my head against a brick wall. Personally i would go back to the plan of the latter half of the 2010/11 season, ship out some of the players who aren't doing enough, recoup some money and go after the players who compliment our best players playstyle, target technically efficient players and play with that high pressing style of the end of last season, bring in competitors for places to keep the first teamers on their toes and most importantly of all, learn from this seasons mistakes

Offline Always_A_Red

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #441 on: April 28, 2012, 11:36:08 am »

O..K...

You dont think questions should be asked if we are 8th in the league this time next year??  ???
We’ll still finish in top four - and they won’t. You can quote me on this in May.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #442 on: April 28, 2012, 11:40:18 am »
You dont think questions should be asked if we are 8th in the league this time next year??  ???

If you're in it for the long term then no.

If you're in it for the short term and wish to step on that endless quest to win the league "RIGHT NOW" and an endless shower of managers with no real long term plan - which leads to no chance at the league ever - no real success - not even any cup wins and no real goal then yes.
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Offline Always_A_Red

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #443 on: April 28, 2012, 11:47:05 am »
If you're in it for the long term then no.

If you're in it for the short term and wish to step on that endless quest to win the league "RIGHT NOW" and an endless shower of managers with no real long term plan - which leads to no chance at the league ever - no real success - not even any cup wins and no real goal then yes.

I'm all for the long term mate and I think that 36 months will be long enough to determine whether or not we are making true progress or not. If this time next year we are sat in 8th poisition then that shows 'the long term plan' with the current setup is not working and changes will be made for the good of the club.
We’ll still finish in top four - and they won’t. You can quote me on this in May.

Offline Always_A_Red

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We’ll still finish in top four - and they won’t. You can quote me on this in May.

Offline NOTBORNIN1982

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #445 on: April 28, 2012, 11:47:50 am »
If you're in it for the long term then no.

If you're in it for the short term and wish to step on that endless quest to win the league "RIGHT NOW" and an endless shower of managers with no real long term plan - which leads to no chance at the league ever - no real success - not even any cup wins and no real goal then yes.

Luckily this won't be a problem because our league form next season will be much improved. A few more players brought in the summer and it's game on!! I don't know what all the fuss is about myself.  :wave
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Offline Passmaster Molby

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #446 on: April 28, 2012, 11:49:54 am »
If you're in it for the long term then no.

If you're in it for the short term and wish to step on that endless quest to win the league "RIGHT NOW" and an endless shower of managers with no real long term plan - which leads to no chance at the league ever - no real success - not even any cup wins and no real goal then yes.

You talk as if its absolutely guaranteed that Kenny will take us back to the top end of the table and back into the CL, when in fact the reality suggests he is badly struggling with our league form, and is currently on a 20 game league run that was worse than Hodgson's tenure.

Being patient is the right thing to do, but only if the guy in charge is showing signs of progression. I don't see that happening with Kenny and I fear that if we continue with him as our manager next season we will fall further behind the top teams. When you are nearly halfway down the league and struggling for any form or to even score goals and the manager blames luck and bad referee's and says we can't really do anymore in terms of performance then I worry for our future.

Offline NOTBORNIN1982

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #447 on: April 28, 2012, 11:52:49 am »
You talk as if its absolutely guaranteed that Kenny will take us back to the top end of the table and back into the CL, when in fact the reality suggests he is badly struggling with our league form, and is currently on a 20 game league run that was worse than Hodgson's tenure.

Being patient is the right thing to do, but only if the guy in charge is showing signs of progression. I don't see that happening with Kenny and I fear that if we continue with him as our manager next season we will fall further behind the top teams. When you are nearly halfway down the league and struggling for any form or to even score goals and the manager blames luck and bad referee's and says we can't really do anymore in terms of performance then I worry for our future.

This season - Europe, a cup in the cabinet and another final to luck forward to.
Last season - Nothing.

Rafa's not coming back... get over it.
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Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #448 on: April 28, 2012, 11:54:49 am »
I'm all for the long term mate and I think that 36 months will be long enough to determine whether or not we are making true progress or not. If this time next year we are sat in 8th poisition then that shows 'the long term plan' with the current setup is not working and changes will be made for the good of the club.


If changes are made this time next year then you can forget about winning the league ever.

You can also write off the current owners as they obviously would be clueless knee-jerking idiots that are in it for the money and the money alone.
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Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #449 on: April 28, 2012, 11:58:15 am »
You talk as if its absolutely guaranteed that Kenny will take us back to the top end of the table and back into the CL, when in fact the reality suggests he is badly struggling with our league form, and is currently on a 20 game league run that was worse than Hodgson's tenure.

Being patient is the right thing to do, but only if the guy in charge is showing signs of progression. I don't see that happening with Kenny and I fear that if we continue with him as our manager next season we will fall further behind the top teams. When you are nearly halfway down the league and struggling for any form or to even score goals and the manager blames luck and bad referee's and says we can't really do anymore in terms of performance then I worry for our future.

I don't talk about anything. I never said once that Kenny would take us back to the top. I never guaranteed anything. I suggest you read my posts to confirm this.

What I do talk about is giving any manager a chance to achieve his goal. This will quite often (If you've been watching footy for decades rather than years) result in a few steps back and the wheels falling off from time to time. But you can't gauge the overall results after your first steps. Unless you're an idiot.

It takes time. I'm bored of saying it now. Time is what you need. Perhaps Kenny won't do it. Perhaps Kenny can't do it in the modern game.

If we don't give him time then he certainly can't and neither can any other manager.

We give Kenny time to achieve what he wants to achieve. If it comes to it and it's not happening then I'm sure he'd step down well before being pushed. But you have to give him (And any other manager) every chance. Knee-jerking won't achieve that unless we can spend £350M in a season and the new rules suggest we can't.

So it's time we're after. Time. Patience. Long term and giving it the very best chance you can. It's not rocket science.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Always_A_Red

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #450 on: April 28, 2012, 12:04:19 pm »
If changes are made this time next year then you can forget about winning the league ever.

You can also write off the current owners as they obviously would be clueless knee-jerking idiots that are in it for the money and the money alone.

What a ridiculous thing to say Andy. How is two season at 8th in the league a 'knee jerk' reaction?

They are businessmen and have invested in this club to take us back to where we belong....thats the best team in Europe. I would love it if it was Kenny that took us to that place, but im sorry Andy but if we are in 8th place this time next year, he doesnt deserve anymore chances to take the team forward. We are not an '8th place club'. If its Kenny to take us forward then fair enough, but to be honest, I really dont care who does it and I dont think the owners do either, just as long as someone does.
We’ll still finish in top four - and they won’t. You can quote me on this in May.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #451 on: April 28, 2012, 12:06:48 pm »
What a ridiculous thing to say Andy. How is two season at 8th in the league a 'knee jerk' reaction?

They are businessmen and have invested in this club to take us back to where we belong....thats the best team in Europe. I would love it if it was Kenny that took us to that place, but im sorry Andy but if we are in 8th place this time next year, he doesnt deserve anymore chances to take the team forward. We are not an '8th place club'. If its Kenny to take us forward then fair enough, but to be honest, I really dont care who does it and I dont think the owners do either, just as long as someone does.

Clueless.

If they listen to you then I guarantee we'll never win the league in my lifetime.
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They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline RyanBabel19

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #452 on: April 28, 2012, 12:16:31 pm »

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #453 on: April 28, 2012, 12:16:39 pm »
If changes are made this time next year then you can forget about winning the league ever.

You can also write off the current owners as they obviously would be clueless knee-jerking idiots that are in it for the money and the money alone.

Understand your passion mate, but disagree with the vitriol mate.

Fact is we've lost a lot of games lately, more than I remember over any period in any competition. I don't think responding to that would be particularly knee jerk. Knee jerk is getting rid of one of the most promising young managers in Europe midway through his first season while still in the champions league, fa cup, and still in with a shout for a good league performance.

I don't want Kenny to leave, and I'm pretty sure that whenever he does finally decide to move on to pastures a new it will be mainly his choice anyway, but I really don't think it would be fair on anyone to throw that sort of hate at them.

Offline kcbworth

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #454 on: April 28, 2012, 12:17:09 pm »
The fact is. FSG would rather get fourth and champions league revenue than win one trophy and a possible second. You get silverware, you don't get money. They are business men, there life revolves around making money. They will do whatever they can to make us a more profitable asset. Coming fourth is better than winning the CC and FA cup aswell from there viewpoint. There's no ifs or buts about it. They need the club to make money.

Says who?

Offline vivabobbygraham

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #455 on: April 28, 2012, 12:23:05 pm »
You talk as if its absolutely guaranteed that Kenny will take us back to the top end of the table and back into the CL, when in fact the reality suggests he is badly struggling with our league form, and is currently on a 20 game league run that was worse than Hodgson's tenure.

Being patient is the right thing to do, but only if the guy in charge is showing signs of progression. I don't see that happening with Kenny and I fear that if we continue with him as our manager next season we will fall further behind the top teams. When you are nearly halfway down the league and struggling for any form or to even score goals and the manager blames luck and bad referee's and says we can't really do anymore in terms of performance then I worry for our future.

You worry too much.
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Offline dernaroy

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #456 on: April 28, 2012, 12:30:33 pm »
Clueless.

If they listen to you then I guarantee we'll never win the league in my lifetime.

Thats harsh.

The poster is just suggesting that two 8th place finishes in a row in the league would require Kenny's position to be looked at. I hardly think that's unreasonable or clueless.

We're being backed reasonably in the transfer market and I expect this summer we will have reasonable backing again. This year 4th was the target, we all knew this including Kenny, it hasn't happened and 8th is simply not good enough. But one bad league season alone isn't enough to write-off a manager, Kenny deserves the chance to correct some mistakes this summer and go at it again next year when our target will again be 4th. However, another 8th placed finish next year (presumably after adding quality to the swuad) would be a catastophe and certainly suggest that we are not making progress.
i admireyour optimism but if you honestly believe we will finish even in the top 6 this year , then you my friend (im at pains to say this ) are deluded.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #457 on: April 28, 2012, 12:34:43 pm »
That's a quality post but I honestly don't think we ever intended to play with a 'high pressing style'. I think Kenny leaves it up to his players a lot as to what to do - we weren't an organised pressing unit.

What we did have, though, was a front 4 which often featured Maxi, Kuyt, Suarez and Meireles. The first two played under Rafa, the 2nd too are naturally quite busy players, and both are very familar with high pressing tactics from previous clubs or their country. It meant that they knew what to do and could back each other up with out needing to be told, it just came fairly naturally to them. Compare that to this season where we're often playing Downing, Carrol, Suarez and Henderson and it's only Suarez and to an extent Henderson who'll do it off their own backs, and there's no organisation between them if one of them does press.

The main bone of contention for me in that respect isn't so much that we don't press anymore but that there doesn't seem to be a concrete plan. It's ok not to press, but if we don't do it then we have to tell Suarez to stop as well, because he's wasting his energy doing it alone.
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Offline Red Crown

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #458 on: April 28, 2012, 12:35:40 pm »
Says who?

Surely you realise the sponsorship deals we're getting are predicated on the premise that we can be a star viewing draw not only in this league but the Champions League as well, right?

I know, I know, the sky is falling and slippery slope addicts can sound shrill and annoying at times; but there are some very clear and obvious economic realities that make top four (which equates with a chance to be in the Champions League) a priority for this club.

Offline vivabobbygraham

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #459 on: April 28, 2012, 12:36:50 pm »
They are not owners who can just afford to spunk money. They are not  sheiks, or Russian billionaires. They cannot keep bankrolling the club until it wins everything. As much as we as supporters see two trophies a great season, we would be happy to keep winning silverware year after year but unless they get this club back into CL football they will not be satisfied.

Winning trophies becomes a habit and like any habit it has to be continually satisfied. This season we have regained the habit of winning trophies. One in the bag, craving another. That surely has to be progress? There are plenty of examples of teams recovering from a previous bad season League wise, Newcastle and Spurs being case in point. Next season is the barometer for success in that area. Do we improve our position enough to make us believe the season after we may challenge for the title which is the ultimate goal. If CL is achieved there then the following season. It's all small steps for me. I believe we give Kenny the opportunity to keep the wheel in our drive for the ultimate goal, number 19, because bringing in another Coach of whatever calibre will set us back. You say yourself, the owners will not throw money at the problem. They have a plan and my belief is Kenny's leadership is at the forefront of it.
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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #460 on: April 28, 2012, 12:40:37 pm »
Says who?
Is there really much doubt about that?

When Henry came out and spoke about targets for the year at the start of the season, he said they'd be very disappointed not to get 4th (something they seem to have subsequently decided was over aggressive given the players at our disposal), they never mentioned the Cups at all.

From a business (rather than fan!) point of view its obvious in any case, as the amount of funds generated by the CL dwarf those generated from the Cup competitions and we need that cash in order to improve the squad, the exposure from CL wouldn't do any harm for the Commercial revenues or efforts to potentially find a stadium sponsor either.

Winning the Cup(s) is great and if you can't appreciate that then you probably shouldn't be supporting a football team, but the CL is vital to allow us to invest in the team at the level we would all like to see happen.

Offline And Could He Play

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #461 on: April 28, 2012, 12:43:51 pm »
Wonder how people would feel this time next year.. if we'd won
the Carling cup again, were in the FA cup final again & had just
qualified for the Europa league final.. But were 5th in the league.


i'd be over the moon, 3 more finals? chance of 5 trophies in two seasons, dreamland that.
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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #462 on: April 28, 2012, 12:46:56 pm »
Wonder how people would feel this time next year.. if we'd won
the Carling cup again, were in the FA cup final again & had just
qualified for the Europa league final.. But were 5th in the league.
The more telling question is... how will people feel this time next year if we've won fuck all and are 5th in the league?
Eggs, chickens, counting and all that marlarkey.

How about if people just calmed down, took one game at a time, seen where we ended up and then took it from there?
There's a novel thought, in these times, eh.
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Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #463 on: April 28, 2012, 12:49:01 pm »
They are not owners who can just afford to spunk money. They are not  sheiks, or Russian billionaires. They cannot keep bankrolling the club until it wins everything. As much as we as supporters see two trophies a great season, we would be happy to keep winning silverware year after year but unless they get this club back into CL football they will not be satisfied.



They've only been here 1 year.

"They cannot continue bankrolling.."

Er.. What have they been 'bankrolling' exactly? They haven't actually put a shed load of money in.. yet.
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Offline vivabobbygraham

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #464 on: April 28, 2012, 12:49:59 pm »
The fact is. FSG would rather get fourth and champions league revenue than win one trophy and a possible second. You get silverware, you don't get money. They are business men, there life revolves around making money. They will do whatever they can to make us a more profitable asset. Coming fourth is better than winning the CC and FA cup aswell from there viewpoint. There's no ifs or buts about it. They need the club to make money.

Of course but they are also Sports management people who would have looked at the big picture. They have often talked of achieving sustainable success. That does not come overnight. they willl have planned 3-5 years ahead on the financial side all the while increasing the assett. Cups help the brand awareness globally (hate that shit speak but hey ho), the FA Cup final is the most watched final outside of the CL so they will appreciate its value and see it as a positive. They are no mugs. If, after another season and no signs of progress they will rethink. They would have to for by that time Kenny would have done a Pep and made way for someone else without any prompting from orthers such is the man's devotion to this club.
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Offline kcbworth

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #465 on: April 28, 2012, 12:51:28 pm »
The fact is. FSG would rather get fourth and champions league revenue than win one trophy and a possible second. You get silverware, you don't get money. They are business men, there life revolves around making money. They will do whatever they can to make us a more profitable asset. Coming fourth is better than winning the CC and FA cup aswell from there viewpoint. There's no ifs or buts about it. They need the club to make money.

Says who?

Have seen a bunch of posters say give a lot of reasons why getting 4th is good and commercially important, but noone has said why FSG would rather get 4th than silverware?!? I actually suspect they wouldnt be so clear.

Finishing nowhere near the clubs we think we are competing with on the other hand, is another matter altogether, and that I think will drive their decision making process.

Offline And Could He Play

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #466 on: April 28, 2012, 12:51:42 pm »
The more telling question is... how will people feel this time next year if we've won fuck all and are 5th in the league?
Eggs, chickens, counting and all that marlarkey.



It's scary that a lot of people would be happy with that mate.
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Offline vivabobbygraham

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #467 on: April 28, 2012, 12:57:14 pm »
The more telling question is... how will people feel this time next year if we've won fuck all and are 5th in the league?
Eggs, chickens, counting and all that marlarkey.

How about if people just calmed down, took one game at a time, seen where we ended up and then took it from there?
There's a novel thought, in these times, eh.

Or 6th and the Europa, or 8th with the Europa, CC and the FA Cup, or........aagh!!!!

Yep, calm down sounds good to me, FS.
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Offline Loo Pan

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #468 on: April 28, 2012, 01:00:33 pm »

You can't be so blinkered to think that Kenny had nothing to do with the transfers? It has been stated many times that they WORKED TOGETHER (Kenny and Comolli), and Kenny had the last say. Kenny just recently said that ALL the signings were his command (although how much of that was protecting comolli i dont know)



You were criticising him for the size of the fees spent on certain players, I was pointing out that was not his job. Maybe that makes it clear now.

Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #469 on: April 28, 2012, 01:02:53 pm »
Wonder how people would feel this time next year.. if we'd won
the Carling cup again, were in the FA cup final again & had just
qualified for the Europa league final.. But were 5th in the league.

5th is higher than 8th.  3 finals is more than 2 finals.  I'd call that progress.

Offline Red Crown

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #470 on: April 28, 2012, 01:07:00 pm »
Have seen a bunch of posters say give a lot of reasons why getting 4th is good and commercially important, but noone has said why FSG would rather get 4th than silverware?!? I actually suspect they wouldnt be so clear.

They're never gonna come out and say; 'piss the sodding milk cup, we want fourth!' or anything as crass and tactless as that, obviously.  But implying unless they come out and say something along those lines then continuing with an argumentum ad ignorantiam is disingenuous at best;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/8725444/Liverpool-owner-John-W-Henry-admits-top-players-wanted-to-leave-the-club-before-his-overhaul-at-Anfield.html

"This is a club with a history in European competition and people throughout the world - at least our supporters - yearn for European nights. That’s our first goal. But it won’t be at all easy as there are 6 big clubs - among the best in Europe - fighting for 4 spots." ~ John W Henry Aug 2011

That was their target, it doesn't mean that failing to achieve it is an automatic failure of course, there are extenuating circumstances, and the league result should never be looked at in isolation, but arguing that fourth wasn't their goal is a little ... off.

Finishing nowhere near the clubs we think we are competing with on the other hand, is another matter altogether, and that I think will drive their decision making process.

IF we are discussing Kenny here then I would be worried if Kenny was saying to them the same things he says to the press, but since I believe Kenny gives the press the square root of fuck all I'm not too worried about it at all.

Offline Bonaqua

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #471 on: April 28, 2012, 01:19:03 pm »
What a ridiculous thing to say Andy. How is two season at 8th in the league a 'knee jerk' reaction?

They are businessmen and have invested in this club to take us back to where we belong....thats the best team in Europe. I would love it if it was Kenny that took us to that place, but im sorry Andy but if we are in 8th place this time next year, he doesnt deserve anymore chances to take the team forward. We are not an '8th place club'. If its Kenny to take us forward then fair enough, but to be honest, I really dont care who does it and I dont think the owners do either, just as long as someone does.


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Offline OneTouchFooty

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #472 on: April 28, 2012, 01:20:24 pm »
Accuse me of wanting the league asap and being a short-termist but... Another 8th place finish would be a disaster whichever way we look at it (unless we sweep the lot.. Both cups and UEFA cup obviously, high unlikely though). Not that I'd consider getting rid of Kenny, but we aren't short of a few quid and will be pumping more money into the team than the likes Newcastle and Everton will, therefore finishing below them again would not, for me, represent progress.

Offline Cochise

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #473 on: April 28, 2012, 01:20:46 pm »
Maybe because he's not in control of our transfer policy, do you think?

OK, maybe he didn't go to DC and say listen we need a striker or maybe he did. What he was in control of though is the team selection and he very rarely played a player who could and did score goals when he played and then dropped said player for an inferior one who doesn't score goals. This I don't understand at all.
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Offline vivabobbygraham

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #474 on: April 28, 2012, 01:21:08 pm »
IF we are discussing Kenny here then I would be worried if Kenny was saying to them the same things he says to the press, but since I believe Kenny gives the press the square root of fuck all I'm not too worried about it at all.
Absolutely. The owners cannot fail to be impressed with Kenny, his love of the club and his honesty. That will have an effect. What he is telling them privately regarding where the club is at and where it can be will be of tremendous value to them as they struggle through the malaise of English football. Of course they will get 2nd opinions for they are smart people. I would presume by now they will also have realised what integriity the man has and that will have an effect too for JHenry and Werner have similar traits. All this will be weighed against their disappointment at not achieving their goal for CL qualification. For these reasons I believe they will be prepared to give Kenny another season with funds knowing he will tell them if it is not working early enough for them to change tack with another coach.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 01:31:41 pm by vivabobbygraham »
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Offline kcbworth

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #475 on: April 28, 2012, 01:21:14 pm »

You really know how to run a sucessful footballclub dont you?  :wave
When the supporters stop supporting and think they can operate the club, we're all in trouble.

What's your point?

Offline RyanBabel19

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #476 on: April 28, 2012, 01:23:44 pm »
That's a quality post but I honestly don't think we ever intended to play with a 'high pressing style'. I think Kenny leaves it up to his players a lot as to what to do - we weren't an organised pressing unit.

What we did have, though, was a front 4 which often featured Maxi, Kuyt, Suarez and Meireles. The first two played under Rafa, the 2nd too are naturally quite busy players, and both are very familar with high pressing tactics from previous clubs or their country. It meant that they knew what to do and could back each other up with out needing to be told, it just came fairly naturally to them. Compare that to this season where we're often playing Downing, Carrol, Suarez and Henderson and it's only Suarez and to an extent Henderson who'll do it off their own backs, and there's no organisation between them if one of them does press.

The main bone of contention for me in that respect isn't so much that we don't press anymore but that there doesn't seem to be a concrete plan. It's ok not to press, but if we don't do it then we have to tell Suarez to stop as well, because he's wasting his energy doing it alone.
Cheers hbhr and i agree with all of your post. It does seem as though we dont have a set plan in terms of the pressing, i do sometimes feel sorry for suarez because you will see him pressure as many as 4 players without success, turn around and just see everyone standing static, its rarely ever a solid cohesive strategy implemented across the side as one unit. I actually like the approach of giving the players alot of freedom but have always felt its more effective when its complimented with a solid tactical base, one big machine with each player having their defined role. Bielsas bilbao side are a great example, they all work for one another in defence then as soon as they regain possession muniain and susaeta burst into the spaces ahead of them and llorente drags his marker(s) out of position, the midfield pushes up and the widemen are so unpredictable, you cant just man mark one of the two because they move so much. Its normal to see muniain on both sides of the field numerous times throughtout a game but unlike our kind of playstyle its not half hour on the left then the same on the right, its less predictable. They have their tactic in its most basic form... switch wings but they are afforded the opportunity to implement their own touch and switch when they feel necessary, its not so rigid but almost asif they have that  free role we hear so much about gerrard playing when on the right, but they have that all the time.

Obviously this is just my analysis on how the tactics appear to me but i think his is the just of how its set up and its incredibly effective. We do it too at times but its always the same players doing it and contrary to last seasons set up, this no longer seems a favoured playstyle

Offline Vulmea

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #477 on: April 28, 2012, 01:28:39 pm »
This season has been a strange one for me.

It has for everybody. Never known a season like it.

However the rest of your post makes no sense to me although I'm sure it does for many. Its not that its written poorly, it isn't , its well written. I just disagree with most of it.

like so many you comment on results - we actually played better football against WBA than we did against Fulham last season - just the result was different - 3 goals in a nano second, 2 of which were thrown in by Fulham  tend to completely change peoples perception of that Fulham game and thats the game most people hold up as how great we were last seson not the dismal games against Spurs or Villa at the end of the seaosn.

All that has been missing this season has been goals - we've got excellent defensive stats, excellent stats for creating chances, good chances, none of this 'our chances aren't good enough' bollocks, thats just people trying to find reasons for their own prejudices - the stats just dont support it - we create enough we just dont score - missed pens, woodwork, crsap finishing.

The only stat that matters is we haven't scored enough goals - but its not just the goals imagine what not scoring does to the players - imagine the doubt it creates, the confidence it drains - for a number of the lads we are judging them at a low point, one where very little has gone right for them and yet, despite this we still played WBA off the park - I've lost count of the opposition managers and players who've gone away laughing at how they've nicked a result - yet all some of our supporters see is that result and thats what they comment on.

Case in point the league cup final we played crap, better than Cardiff but crap yet nobody cares its just about the trophy. That embodies football. Chelsea get outplayed home and away by Barcelona who gets all the plaudits - Chelsea - results dictate how we perceive a match. Yet the result can be random, they aren't always 'deserved', they just are. Of course there are things like will to win,  belief etc that can make a difference but even these often grow with results - you get that confidence when those last minute winners go in and go in regularly.

People comparing the dismall games under Hodgson to those under Dalglish - which team did you want to be last weekend - the battered WBA who fluke a win or the team that battered them but lost?

The other bit of revisonism is the transfers last year - the ideas were obvious - we built a balanced squad - we had cover for every position , the quality may not have been great but we had cover - no 'massive' gaps - we made 'safe' buys - I didn't particularly like them but you could see why they were made.

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Offline vivabobbygraham

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #478 on: April 28, 2012, 01:38:50 pm »
It has for everybody. Never known a season like it.

However the rest of your post makes no sense to me although I'm sure it does for many. Its not that its written poorly, it isn't , its well written. I just disagree with most of it.

like so many you comment on results - we actually played better football against WBA than we did against Fulham last season - just the result was different - 3 goals in a nano second, 2 of which were thrown in by Fulham  tend to completely change peoples perception of that Fulham game and thats the game most people hold up as how great we were last seson not the dismal games against Spurs or Villa at the end of the seaosn.

All that has been missing this season has been goals - we've got excellent defensive stats, excellent stats for creating chances, good chances, none of this 'our chances aren't good enough' bollocks, thats just people trying to find reasons for their own prejudices - the stats just dont support it - we create enough we just dont score - missed pens, woodwork, crsap finishing.

The only stat that matters is we haven't scored enough goals - but its not just the goals imagine what not scoring does to the players - imagine the doubt it creates, the confidence it drains - for a number of the lads we are judging them at a low point, one where very little has gone right for them and yet, despite this we still played WBA off the park - I've lost count of the opposition managers and players who've gone away laughing at how they've nicked a result - yet all some of our supporters see is that result and thats what they comment on.

Case in point the league cup final we played crap, better than Cardiff but crap yet nobody cares its just about the trophy. That embodies football. Chelsea get outplayed home and away by Barcelona who gets all the plaudits - Chelsea - results dictate how we perceive a match. Yet the result can be random, they aren't always 'deserved', they just are. Of course there are things like will to win,  belief etc that can make a difference but even these often grow with results - you get that confidence when those last minute winners go in and go in regularly.

People comparing the dismall games under Hodgson to those under Dalglish - which team did you want to be last weekend - the battered WBA who fluke a win or the team that battered them but lost?

The other bit of revisonism is the transfers last year - the ideas were obvious - we built a balanced squad - we had cover for every position , the quality may not have been great but we had cover - no 'massive' gaps - we made 'safe' buys - I didn't particularly like them but you could see why they were made.

Agreed Vulmea. Added to that the loss of Lucas, Agger, Johnson at important times, the uncertainty over Gerrard, the Suarez 8 game ban and the all round jitteriness of the fans in and around Anfield fearing United on their way to a 20th....maybe, which must have had an effect on the new players. One off cup games must have been a welcome relief and how well have they played under those circumstances?
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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: TWO finals in your first full season back...
« Reply #479 on: April 28, 2012, 01:42:13 pm »
Vulmea mate, the only problem with this, is it's becoming habit. It's deja vue wrapped up in groundhog day, all over again and again and again.
I've lost count of the times, I've thought to meself, We're gonna panel this shower today. And we've got fuck all out of it.

You know I enjoy reading your posts, and your loyalty. And you know what I think of Kenny, and what I think needs to happen at the club. But I don't think managers are walking away from Anfield bemused at how they got something out of the game. I think they're coming to Anfield with a very simple plan in mind and knowing full well, if they stick with it and get a bit of luck along the way, chances are, they'll come away with at least 1 point, maybe 3.

I've said it before, but I stand by it... one of the great things about football is it's unpredictability. But for most of the games this season, I could have written the script before a ball was kicked.

The one thing I will say about that, though... if a mug like me can see it, then Kenny will already be a few steps ahead and working on solving it. I just hope he gets the time, the money, and the pieces he needs to complete the jigsaw, because, if he doesn't get it right in the summer, he won't be round much longer.
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