Author Topic: Injury (and absence) related chat (so the news is kept in the other thread)  (Read 556164 times)

Offline wampa1

  • Should probably leg it while he can......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,990
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
It's incredible that we could (worst case scenario and hopefully not!) be going into the CL final without Van Dijk, Fabinho and Salah and instead of thinking, 'this is going to be almost impossible now', instead thinking, 'the backups are still pretty incredible'. What a squad we've assembled.
And from those three Fabinho is the one I'm wanting back the most.

Offline Knight

  • No one understands football like me.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,789
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
And from those three Fabinho is the one I'm wanting back the most.

Not sure about that. Henderson is closer to Fabinho in quality than any of our other CBs to Van Dijk. And he's also closer quality wise to Fabinho than our other wide forwards are to Salah at wide left.

Offline RedG13

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,824
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Not sure about that. Henderson is closer to Fabinho in quality than any of our other CBs to Van Dijk. And he's also closer quality wise to Fabinho than our other wide forwards are to Salah at wide left.
Madrid are going Press the Midfield. Henderson struggles vs that keeping the ball and with his passing. Fabinho is a big difference there.

Offline Knight

  • No one understands football like me.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,789
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Madrid are going Press the Midfield. Henderson struggles vs that keeping the ball and with his passing. Fabinho is a big difference there.

Sure but then Henderson probably plays in midfield anyway. And if they're going to press the midfield I'd rather him at 6 than 8.

Offline naka

  • Lennart Skoglund Ultra
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,638
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
And from those three Fabinho is the one I'm wanting back the most.
watched inside wembley last nite and my worry is that Fabinho was still kinda limping, was comfortable that vvd/salah were fine but fabinho is definitely a worry, thank goodness its still a wee while to go.
definitely would like to see him training for a full week next week.

Online SamLad

  • Definitely not a numerologist! Definitely fodder for whimsical modding though... ;) Definitely not 72! Founding member of the Efes Animal Appreciation Society. Very mɪstʃɪvəs.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,449
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
any update on Gomez today?

Offline Caston

  • Castoff, Knitone, Purlone
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,622
paul joyce@_pauljoyce

Joe Gomez has had a scan on the ankle injury sustained versus Southampton. No serious damage which is a positive outcome. Liverpool are confident he will be available for the Champions League final if his recovery goes as planned.

Offline PeterTheRed ...

  • Edgelord. Fabrizio Romanovic, Tancredi Palmerovic, Christian Falkovic, Duncan Castlovic, Jan Aage Fjortovic
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,225
paul joyce@_pauljoyce

Joe Gomez has had a scan on the ankle injury sustained versus Southampton. No serious damage which is a positive outcome. Liverpool are confident he will be available for the Champions League final if his recovery goes as planned.

Great news ...

Offline Circa1892

  • Real Madrid 0 - 1 Liverpool - Parc des Princes, 27th May 1981 Remember?... About as intimidating as Bambi.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,190
Madrid are going Press the Midfield. Henderson struggles vs that keeping the ball and with his passing. Fabinho is a big difference there.

Are they?

I haven't seen much of them this season - but don't they usually start with Kroos, Modric and Casemiro?

Online newterp

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,389
paul joyce@_pauljoyce

Joe Gomez has had a scan on the ankle injury sustained versus Southampton. No serious damage which is a positive outcome. Liverpool are confident he will be available for the Champions League final if his recovery goes as planned.
wow!

Online SamLad

  • Definitely not a numerologist! Definitely fodder for whimsical modding though... ;) Definitely not 72! Founding member of the Efes Animal Appreciation Society. Very mɪstʃɪvəs.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,449
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
paul joyce@_pauljoyce

Joe Gomez has had a scan on the ankle injury sustained versus Southampton. No serious damage which is a positive outcome. Liverpool are confident he will be available for the Champions League final if his recovery goes as planned.
it's a trap!!!

Offline FlashGordon

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,531
  • RAWK Cheltenham 2021 Champion Tipster*
paul joyce@_pauljoyce

Joe Gomez has had a scan on the ankle injury sustained versus Southampton. No serious damage which is a positive outcome. Liverpool are confident he will be available for the Champions League final if his recovery goes as planned.

Absolutely brilliant news.
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline PeterTheRed ...

  • Edgelord. Fabrizio Romanovic, Tancredi Palmerovic, Christian Falkovic, Duncan Castlovic, Jan Aage Fjortovic
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,225
Madrid are going Press the Midfield. Henderson struggles vs that keeping the ball and with his passing. Fabinho is a big difference there.

Modric, Kroos and Casemiro will not press our midfield. At their age, it would be a foodball suicide ...

Offline So… Howard Philips

  • Penile Toupé Extender. Notoriously work-shy, copper-bottomed pervert.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 23,146
  • All I want for Christmas is a half and half scarf
paul joyce@_pauljoyce

Joe Gomez has had a scan on the ankle injury sustained versus Southampton. No serious damage which is a positive outcome. Liverpool are confident he will be available for the Champions League final if his recovery goes as planned.

Good news.

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 93,680
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Hard to not be impressed by the work we’ve done to reduce injuries….

Quote
“I always say we are a little bit like criminal detectives.” So says Dr Andreas Schlumberger, Liverpool’s head of recovery and performance, but it is hard to imagine even the most enlightened FBI agent employing anything more sophisticated than the extraordinary technology that is helping Liverpool in their quest for an unprecedented quadruple.

Invented by the artificial intelligence company Zone7, who are based in California’s Silicon Valley, Liverpool have been using cutting-edge computer algorithms that both detect injury risk and recommend preemptive action.

It all helps to explain why manager Jurgen Klopp chose to rotate nine key players in beating Southampton on Tuesday night, barely three days after needing 120 minutes to win the FA Cup.

It perhaps also helps to explain how Liverpool have slashed their number of lost days this season to injury by more than a third and retained such remarkable performance levels across 61 games.

News of the partnership can be disclosed today for the first time, as well as Liverpool’s decision to extend their use of the artificial intelligence platform by a further two seasons, as well as with both the women’s and Under-23 teams.

The Liverpool men’s first-team squad have been using Zone7’s technology since the start of this current 2021/2022 season. The platform analyses comprehensive player information, including in-game and training data, as well as biometric, strength, sleep, flexibility and stress levels to create risk signals and practical interventions, all aimed at improving performance while lowering injury rates.

That information is then directly delivered via an app to a club’s key decision-makers, ranging from the manager through to his various sports science, medical and coaching staff.

“Football has become very data rich and, if you can extract deep value from the data, then you can have a competitive advantage,” says Tal Brown, the chief executive and founder of Zone7. “This is already very well established in the area of talent identification, and it is now starting to happen in measuring and trying to optimise player wellbeing and performance.”

Brown was a first-class graduate of computer systems engineering at the University of Warwick before starting his career in the Israel Defence Force’s Intelligence Corps. His team have long been designing predictive software in other industries, ranging from cyber security to financial services, and began working in football four years ago. They duly gathered millions of hours of data from more than 30 teams worldwide, including Getafe, Glasgow Rangers and Hull City.

In its quest to identify patterns that might get missed by purely human analysis, the algorithm provides information at various levels, from football as a sport through to teams and individual players. It is designed constantly to update and improve with new data.

“The software can simulate optimal scenarios on a day-by-day basis so that the players are trending towards their peak and injury risk is minimised,” explains Brown. “Sometimes risk may mean a reduction in workload - less running of a specific type like sprinting. Sometimes a player can be undertrained and additional work may be required.”

Central to Zone7’s philosophy has been to also employ people with experience inside professional football to advise and help deliver the information in a way that is practical and accessible. “These are Premier League veterans - it’s not just a couple of people from Silicon Valley running around with spreadsheets,” says Brown. “It was a long process to create adaptations that make the software usable in a football environment. Football is not stock trading and neither is it anything else out there on a professional or human experience.”

Jordan Henderson has featured in 55 of Liverpool's games this season Credit: PA
At the time of the first Covid-19 lockdown in 2020, Zone7 had evolved to the point where they believed that their systems could detect 70 per cent of injuries up to seven days before they occurred. They specifically highlighted the correlation between game-load and injury, emphasising the elevated risk of six matches over a 30-day period. Liverpool have just completed their ninth match in 30 days, including the last seven back-to-back midweeks.

Brown cannot talk about the specific findings of any one club, and stresses that there “are no certainties”, but does reveal some fascinating insights.

Although there is indeed a general correlation between game-load and injury risk, this changes according to mitigations that are put in place and there are also very clear dangers associated with too much rest.

“We have found across all teams that, in about a third of cases, injury risk is attributed to under training and not overtraining,” he says. Environmental factors, such as travel and sleep, and whether a team has stayed in a hotel immediately after a fixture, are areas that are producing increasingly striking results. Zone7 also now works with teams both in the NBA and NFL, allowing their systems to identify trends which may be distinct or common to different sports.

“The algorithm is as good as the data - the more examples, the better it will become and, over time, it will have less black spots,” says Brown. Events like the condensed Covid programme and Liverpool’s current schedule have therefore provided rich opportunities to harvest new information.

According to Premier Injuries, a company which analyses injuries across England’s top-flight, Liverpool have recorded vast improvements this season.

They have so far lost 1,008 days to injury, compared to more than 1,500 in 2020-21. Crucially, the days lost to what are deemed ‘substantial injuries’, which are those lasting more than nine days, have almost halved from 1,409 to 841.

'Liverpool employ the best of the best'

Simon Brundish, who works as a consultant sports scientist for various clubs and players, believes that a change of approach became very evident early in the season. August and September is a period during which rotation is often very minimal but Liverpool were already averaging almost four changes per game.

It was a strategy that ensured key players could build gradually into the season and, crucially, that more peripheral squad players had game-time in which to establish partnerships. That would prove critical later in the season, such as against Southampton on Tuesday, when certain changes were forced upon the team.

“He kept players fresh while keeping a bigger pool of players topped up,” said Brundish, who says that Klopp’s “strategies of rotation have improved year on year” amid a schedule now that he describes as “incredible, unheard of” and “unsustainable” over any prolonged period.

“Klopp understands sports science - he uses the information and has a really collaborative team,” says Brundish. “He has developed a strategy, planned across the season, and then rotated deliberately and proactively ahead of time so that players have a specific chronic load.”

Conall Murtagh, Liverpool’s first-team fitness coach, describes Zone7 as “a helpful…innovative” resource which has been used over the last nine months “to help optimise” player care.

“It is a very exciting development for the future load management of elite football players,” he said. Brown also constantly emphasises the wider human expertise. “Liverpool employ the best of the best, in terms of data, sports medicine and staff,” he says.

“It’s a very delicate, well thought through process. Zone7 is a dashboard on the pilot’s cockpit but it is not the pilot. It is not magical software. It helps with some of the data heavy lifting but there’s a lot more that they see that the software does not - like players’ mood, their wellbeing, the tactical needs of the day. Ultimately it is human experts who are driving the show. It’s the human touch that makes that data useful and usable.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline royhendo

  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 253,074
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
It's a shame they say 'slashed by more than a third' because the trailing season was maybe the worst we've ever had. It's fantastic though isn't it? Ta for sharing that Mr T2O!
"Word of the day is 'philodox' (17th century): one who is in love with their own opinion, and who consequently believes that everyone else should share it."  @susie_dent on twitter - https://twitter.com/susie_dent/status/1419683653844668422

Online newterp

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,389
Salah and VVD are ready - could play.

Offline No666

  • Married to Macca.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,720
Quote from the press conference:
“It looks good but the boys make steps and we will see. My preferred solution would be that they all could play at the weekend for rhythm reasons, stuff like this, or at least could be on the bench and then we can bring them on or not, but they are involved. But if not, then we take it from there. I cannot say 100 per cent.”

Offline Rusty

  • loser mate whose french is a little.....Rusty.....n'est-ce pas?
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,452
Does the AI factor in games against Everton where Richarlison is playing? Surely no one needs an algorithm to predict that the risk of injury there is much higher for any players on the pitch :P
He's made Kaizer wet himself with excitement then cry when he realises all in one post. Ban him? Knight him in the new year's honours!

Offline Caston

  • Castoff, Knitone, Purlone
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,622
VVD and Salah trained today

Offline So… Howard Philips

  • Penile Toupé Extender. Notoriously work-shy, copper-bottomed pervert.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 23,146
  • All I want for Christmas is a half and half scarf
Hard to not be impressed by the work we’ve done to reduce injuries….

Sounds a great use of technology should but surely our injury load this season has been greatly reduced as we haven’t suffered any long term Everton induced injuries.

Edit. Just seen similar post above. ;D

Offline No666

  • Married to Macca.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,720
VVD and Salah trained today
Brilliant. On the bench on Sunday, you'd reckon?

Offline CanuckYNWA

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,771
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Brilliant. On the bench on Sunday, you'd reckon?

Both start imo, if they are in full training 6 days after their "injuries" then clearly it was all precaution and they are ok and nothing major

Offline The_Nomad

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 610
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Didn’t see Fabinho in training or Salah and VVD in the more intense 5 a sides. Probably just easing them back.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2022, 04:27:52 am by The_Nomad »
Good Judgement Comes From Experience, Unfortunately Experience Comes From Bad Judgement.

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,396
Hard to not be impressed by the work we’ve done to reduce injuries….

"They have so far lost 1,008 days to injury, compared to more than 1,500 in 2020-21. Crucially, the days lost to what are deemed ‘substantial injuries’, which are those lasting more than nine days, have almost halved from 1,409 to 841."

When it comes down to it, can't most of these differences be accounted for by Gomez/VVD/Thiago (earlier in season near leg break)?

Also, wish these knobheads and the club would have saved their back patting PR bollocks for a few weeks from now

In the last three weeks almost the entirety of our spine have picked up injuries (VVD, Robertson, Fabinho, Thiago, Salah) plus Firmino being out longer than expected and Allison having a lucky escape during the FA cup (saw the physios do the ligament tests on him).

Offline dutchkop

  • has an issue with his phlemish phalange (bunch of jackals, leave him alone).
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,564
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
When it comes down to it, can't most of these differences be accounted for by Gomez/VVD/Thiago (earlier in season near leg break)?

Also, wish these knobheads and the club would have saved their back patting PR bollocks for a few weeks from now

In the last three weeks almost the entirety of our spine have picked up injuries (VVD, Robertson, Fabinho, Thiago, Salah) plus Firmino being out longer than expected and Allison having a lucky escape during the FA cup (saw the physios do the ligament tests on him).

agreed.. any updates on THiago injury?

Offline Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,621
  • Brace for Impact
Also, wish these knobheads and the club would have saved their back patting PR bollocks for a few weeks from now

In the last three weeks almost the entirety of our spine have picked up injuries (VVD, Robertson, Fabinho, Thiago, Salah) plus Firmino being out longer than expected and Allison having a lucky escape during the FA cup (saw the physios do the ligament tests on him).

Not to give them a let off but the last couple of months especially have been next to impossible to stave off fatigue and injury.

Fixtures every 3/4 days on average, champions league semis, cup final that went to pens. Considering all that, our injuries could've been much much worse. How many players do we have that have picked up little muscle injuries during times like these in the past and been out for weeks, not just a game or two?

All in all, I think we've done very well, and bodes well for next season when we'll have 5 subs in the league to further cushion the squad. Thats the annoying thing for me, Real have had a couple of weeks since they wrapped up the league plus they've had 5 subs all season, which has been a season long advantage for them. Another case of the premier league fucking over their own teams in european competitions.

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,396
Not to give them a let off but the last couple of months especially have been next to impossible to stave off fatigue and injury.

Fixtures every 3/4 days on average, champions league semis, cup final that went to pens. Considering all that, our injuries could've been much much worse. How many players do we have that have picked up little muscle injuries during times like these in the past and been out for weeks, not just a game or two?

All in all, I think we've done very well, and bodes well for next season when we'll have 5 subs in the league to further cushion the squad. Thats the annoying thing for me, Real have had a couple of weeks since they wrapped up the league plus they've had 5 subs all season, which has been a season long advantage for them. Another case of the premier league fucking over their own teams in european competitions.

You're right about the 5 subs change coming in hopefully helping. It'll help players that Klopp tends to want to keep on because of their endurance/reliability (thinking Robertson/Fabinho here), because the three subs need to go on a midfielder or two and a forward.

Still a bit baffled by the resistance to it for two years, then suddenly introducing it after the height of the pandemic affected fixtures

Offline Wghennessy

  • Embarassing
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,630
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop

Offline Machae

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,224
Whats the latest on Fabinho?

Offline latortuga

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,075
Not so bad achilles injury sounds like something you could give him an injection for so he can play and then will probably need the whole of the off season to recover from.  I say go for it, worst case you sub him off early like we did many years ago with Harry Kewell.

Offline Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,621
  • Brace for Impact
You're right about the 5 subs change coming in hopefully helping. It'll help players that Klopp tends to want to keep on because of their endurance/reliability (thinking Robertson/Fabinho here), because the three subs need to go on a midfielder or two and a forward.

Still a bit baffled by the resistance to it for two years, then suddenly introducing it after the height of the pandemic affected fixtures

Funny to look back and think that two now-relegated clubs, Burnley and Sheffield Utd, were part of the opposition to 5 subs. Adapt or die and that.

Offline farawayred

  • Whizz For Atomms. Nucular boffin. A Mars A Day Helps Him Work, Rest And Play
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,309
  • Oh yes, I'm a believer!
Funny to look back and think that two now-relegated clubs, Burnley and Sheffield Utd, were part of the opposition to 5 subs. Adapt or die and that.
Not really. With five subs Burnley's fate may have been sealed by April, not decided on the last day. One could argue that they nicked some points off teams that could have used five subs.

But the important point for me is that clubs' welfare should not supersede players' welfare, the players need that rule in place.
Cruyff: "Victory is not enough, there also needs to be beautiful football."

Offline kaesarsosei

  • Brutally bad.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,883
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Not so bad achilles injury sounds like something you could give him an injection for so he can play and then will probably need the whole of the off season to recover from.  I say go for it, worst case you sub him off early like we did many years ago with Harry Kewell.

Depends on what the problem is. If its brusing or a rake from studs, then by all means pump full of meds and get him on. But if its a strain that could develope into a full-blown rupture, then you are dicing with his career at his age. He's be out until 2023 at the very least.

Offline rushyman

  • Not A Badgeman. Fuck him. Please. Someone. Anyone! But not Jonathan Pearce.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 59,421
  • On Halloween, parents send kids out lookin like me
Anyone else hoping this is an elaborate ruse to keep Ancelotti in the dark about who to prepare for?
If you don't limit yourself with bad thoughts, you can fly

Jurgen Klopp

Offline Crosby Nick

  • He was super funny. Used to do these super hilarious puns
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 111,224
  • Poultry in Motion
Anyone else hoping this is an elaborate ruse to keep Ancelotti in the dark about who to prepare for?

Not really our style is it? And subbing off Thiago at half time in a must win game we were drawing is a pretty higher stakes way of trying to keep Ancelotti in the dark.

Offline thaddeus

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,708
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/thiago-alcantara-liverpool-champions-league-b2085162.html

Achilles injury for Thiago. Race against time for the CL final.
At least he's in the race.  Going off with an injury six days before a cup final would, in most cases, be the end of it.

The five subs option makes it more tempting to start him if he's thereabouts but you can guarantee that if he does start it will take all of about 2 mins for Quasimodo to rake a boot down his Achilles.

Offline QC

  • rawks Lionel Hutz, ambulance chaser.Sucks up to the wrong type of Mod.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,202
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Hard to not be impressed by the work we’ve done to reduce injuries….

How do they collect all the sleep data etc?

Offline naka

  • Lennart Skoglund Ultra
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,638
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
just excuciating waiting for updates on FAB and thiago
every morning its the first thing i do when i hit work
definitely not good for stress levels

Offline harleydanger

  • 7/2=3. Proud holder of shittest ideas badge.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,486
  • If I sound stupid, I'm probably casting a line
Anyone else hoping this is an elaborate ruse to keep Ancelotti in the dark about who to prepare for?

Carlo’s preparation will be taking the squad to a restaurant and telling them they’re great and work it out on the day.
WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE!

Normally a player can look great on tubes, but one of the things that's encouraging for me is just the amount of youtube videos on him