Author Topic: PL: Liverpool 3 v Brighton 3 Trossard 4', 17', 83', Bobby 33', 52', Webster 62'  (Read 38275 times)

Offline Bergersrightwingviews

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The runner as the RCM only really works though if Trent plays every game . Take Trent away and you need more creativity in that role.

True. I’d expect him to start more often than not though.
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Offline Dim Glas

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How is it thus tifo guy can isolate what liverpool is doing wrong so easily but evne after so many days of enforced layoffs, klopp and ljinfers and their coaches cannot figure this out?!

Reckon it’s time we start campaigning for the Tifo guy to become Liverpool's new manager.

#KloppOut #TifoGuyIn

Get ‘em trending.

Offline darragh85

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i wonder if one or two of our key players are minding themselves for the world cup.  get that impression with Van Dijk. Fabinho also.

Offline DelTrotter

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i wonder if one or two of our key players are minding themselves for the world cup.  get that impression with Van Dijk. Fabinho also.

Nah, it's just an easy thing to throw at them when we aren't winning though. What would be the point in Fabinho doing that? He doesn't start as it is so would risk being left out altogether

Offline El Lobo

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i wonder if one or two of our key players are minding themselves for the world cup.  get that impression with Van Dijk. Fabinho also.

Considering that Fab in particular gets overlooked in favour of poorer players at the best of times, I’m not sure playing at 75% would be the wisest tactic. He’s hardly a shoe-in so can afford to hold back.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Garnier

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 i'd sooner get rid of all players before Jurgen

That said

Jurgen please sort this out
The change is cast

Offline SenorGarcia

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I think we’re coming up against teams more motivated than we are. This team SHOULD have been multi-league winners, had 2 lost CL finals and would have earned their place in the history of the game had they pulled last season off. Rightly or wrongly it’s going to be difficult motivating them for a top 4 battle. You’re not telling me it doesn’t get to the team seeing Haaland banging them in for City. Again I’m not excusing the team’s mentality, just trying to rationalise it in context.

Add on the obvious squad building issues, and I think this season’s struggles are somewhat inevitable. Freshening the squad up helps the motivation side of things too as well as adding to the quality of the team, but clearly that task now lies at Klopp’s door.

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Offline Fromola

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I think we’re coming up against teams more motivated than we are. This team SHOULD have been multi-league winners, had 2 lost CL finals and would have earned their place in the history of the game had they pulled last season off. Rightly or wrongly it’s going to be difficult motivating them for a top 4 battle. You’re not telling me it doesn’t get to the team seeing Haaland banging them in for City. Again I’m not excusing the team’s mentality, just trying to rationalise it in context.

Add on the obvious squad building issues, and I think this season’s struggles are somewhat inevitable. Freshening the squad up helps the motivation side of things too as well as adding to the quality of the team, but clearly that task now lies at Klopp’s door.

We've just gone from being the toughest 90 minutes teams will face all season to being ripe for the taking and opponents are smelling blood. It's a bit like the difference teams felt from playing Ferguson's United that won the league in his last season to Moyes's team the next season.

We were perhaps unfortunate to face a newly promoted team away on the opening day who paid us no respect and just went for it, as that's the set the template and given confidence to everyone else. Nobody fears us anymore, unless they concede early perhaps and let us get our tails up (i.e. Bournemouth who had already given up under Scott Parker).
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Offline keyop

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This is a good reminder. My gentle pushback, and I certainly don't want to make this into a 'pro FSG vs anti FSG' thing or label fellow fans or push binary thinking, but my gentle pushback is there are a few posters, and you're probably among them, who were defending our transfer business all summer or claiming that the situation is down to bad luck more than anything else (specifically with regard to the midfield) or saying we'll be fine without investing in the midfield. But it's getting to the point where the decisions we've made look like they might be catastrophic. The next few weeks will show us whether that's overly negative. But if we've managed to fall back into the pack, and even be struggling for top 4, given the position of strength we've been in, and given how brilliant Klopp is, and how world class several of our players still are... well that would awful. And it makes the, 'it's understandable how we got here, transfers are hard, we can survive without a midfield signing' arguments look very hollow. Which is not to say it's binary. It's too easy for people like me to say, 'if we'd signed a top class midfielder all our problems would be solved', probably they wouldn't be. And perhaps we'll recover and be convincingly 2nd by the end of the season (I can't see us getting close to City at this point).
No-one actually said that though, and again the views of the so called 'pro-FSG' fans are being misrepresented. I think universally everyone wanted a midfielder, and no-one actually thought we'd be completely fine as we were. Any acceptance of the situation was largely about making do with what we have, and putting the window in context instead of crying about it.

The midfield situation and how we've got to this position is also probably far more complex than many make out, and certainly not as simple as the 'Just buy Tchouameni' type solutions that were put forward. Whilst I have no more evidence than the next person on what was going on behind the scenes, I find it highly unlikely we weren't tracking multiple players for months, and trying to find a deal that worked for both parties with players that fit our criteria. We must remember that the pool of players that will fit what Jurgen wants from a physical, mental, and technical level is relatively small. Even if we'd bought a top class midfielder there's no guarantee they'd hit the ground running or make an immediate impact - especially as almost everyone else was either injured or out of form.

There were certainly other factors that would've influenced our position - if you follow the midfield recruitment timeline, it seems clear that Jurgen's midfield plan was likely a trio of Keita, Ox and Fabinho, allowing Hendo, Milner (and then Thiago) to grow old gracefully with managed minutes. Jones and Elliott would have been eased in, with the hope of a succession plan. Jurgen has also (rightly or wrongly) repeatedly shown faith in Ox/Keita over the years  - even extending Ox's contract after an horrific injury (otherwise he'd be gone by now). That midfield plan hasn't worked, but is it really due to the owners and not buying more midfielders, or is it because we bought players in other positions instead like Jota, Nunez, Tskimas, Konate and Diaz, and had some horrendous luck with injuries to multiple players?

The other argument often used on here is to refer back to a specific transfer or player leaving, such as the Lovren domino effect (so commonly used in arguments that it should have its own chess move name, such as the 'Lovren Gambit'). But that situation is a complete myth when taken in context - we didn't have to buy Thiago, Jota and Tsimikas in 2020 - Jurgen could've bought a centre back (which everyone in hindsight said we should've done), plus bought a younger and less injury prone midfielder. But we decided not to - probably because:

a) Jurgen thought it unlikely that Virgil, Matip and Gomez would all get season-ending injuries within a couple of months
b) We needed backup for Robbo, cover for the front 3, and someone in midfield to help unlock packed defences
c) We were in a global pandemic

People can do as much mental gymnastics as they like with the permutations of what we should and shouldn't have done over the last 2-3 windows (and the subsequent ripple effects on the squad), but I can 100% guarantee that if we'd bought a CB in summer 2020 and one of our front 3 got injured long term, the knives would be out from the same people for the exact same reasons.

Similarly, Jurgen could've bought a midfielder this summer, but we spent big on Nunez. Who decided that - Jurgen or FSG? We could've bought a midfielder for that money (possibly two), or bought a £40m midfielder and a £30m striker, or bought a £75m midfielder and retained Origi/Minamino. But again, people would have complained that Bobby and Mo are getting on a bit, we hadn't replaced Sadio, and were at risk if we had injuries.

That's not to put blame on Jurgen, but ultimately he decides which positions need reinforcing or are most at risk from injury/burnout/retirement, and he's had opportunities to buy a DM or CM for 3 summer windows and only bought Thiago in (who was 29 and injury prone). It might well be that our targets went elsewhere, or he prioritised other positions, or he thought Ox/Keita might have an injury-free spell, or that we had deals lined up that fell through. But that's why I think everyone should keep a far more open mind about how things play out, as none of us truly knows what goes on or why things happen they way they do. Yet many jump on FSG, the transfer team, or make tacit suggestions that the club don't see what we do, or don't want to fix the problems, or just sit on their hands until the final day of the window.

That's pretty much it - we did buy players, but not the ones some people wanted, and not in the positions they wanted. We did spend money, but not as much money as people wanted, and not as much as some other teams (many of whom have spent several times more than us to go backwards).
« Last Edit: October 3, 2022, 12:26:45 am by keyop »
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Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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This is what is so frustrating. Henderson and Milner were runners first and foremost. Henderson is better technically than he gets credit for, but he’s no Thiago or even a Gini. It can’t be that hard to find the next Henderson.

I mean, we've got a lad who can run hard and fast, and cross and pass the ball as well as anyone who isn't called Kevin, but apparently trying him in midfield simply isn't an option.

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No-one actually said that though, and again the views of the so called 'pro-FSG' fans are being misrepresented. I think universally everyone wanted a midfielder, and no-one actually thought we'd be completely fine as we were. Any acceptance of the situation was largely about making do with what we have, and putting the window in context instead of crying about it.

The midfield situation and how we've got to this position is also probably far more complex than many make out, and certainly not as simple as the 'Just buy Tchouameni' type solutions that were put forward. Whilst I have no more evidence than the next person on what was going on behind the scenes, I find it highly unlikely we weren't tracking multiple players for months, and trying to find a deal that worked for both parties with players that fit our criteria. We must remember that the pool of players that will fit what Jurgen wants from a physical, mental, and technical level is relatively small. Even if we'd bought a top class midfielder there's no guarantee they'd hit the ground running or make an immediate impact - especially as almost everyone else was either injured or out of form.

There were certainly other factors that would've influenced our position - if you follow the midfield recruitment timeline, it seems clear that Jurgen's midfield plan was likely a trio of Keita, Ox and Fabinho, allowing Hendo, Milner (and then Thiago) to grow old gracefully with managed minutes. Jones and Elliott would have been eased in, with the hope of a succession plan. Jurgen has also (rightly or wrongly) repeatedly shown faith in Ox/Keita over the years  - even extending Ox's contract after an horrific injury (otherwise he'd be gone by now). That midfield plan hasn't worked, but is it really due to the owners and not buying more midfielders, or is it because we bought players in other positions instead like Jota, Nunez, Tskimas, Konate and Diaz, and had some horrendous luck with injuries to multiple players?

The other argument often used on here is to refer back to a specific transfer or player leaving, such as the Lovren domino effect (so commonly used in arguments that it should have its own chess move name, such as the 'Lovren Gambit'). But that situation is a complete myth when taken in context - we didn't have to buy Thiago, Jota and Tsimikas in 2020 - Jurgen could've bought a centre back (which everyone in hindsight said we should've done), plus bought a younger and less injury prone midfielder. But we decided not to - probably because:

a) Jurgen thought it unlikely that Virgil, Matip and Gomez would all get season-ending injuries within a couple of months
b) We needed backup for Robbo, cover for the front 3, and someone in midfield to help unlock packed defences
c) We were in a global pandemic

People can do as much mental gymnastics as they like with the permutations of what we should and shouldn't have done over the last 2-3 windows (and the subsequent ripple effects on the squad), but I can 100% guarantee that if we'd bought a CB in summer 2020 and one of our front 3 got injured long term, the knives would be out from the same people for the exact same reasons.

Similarly, Jurgen could've bought a midfielder this summer, but we spent big on Nunez. Who decided that - Jurgen or FSG? We could've bought a midfielder for that money (possibly two), or bought a £40m midfielder and a £30m striker, or bought a £75m midfielder and retained Origi/Minamino. But again, people would have complained that Bobby and Mo are getting on a bit, we hadn't replaced Sadio, and were at risk if we had injuries.

That's not to put blame on Jurgen, but ultimately he decides which positions need reinforcing or are most at risk from injury/burnout/retirement, and he's had opportunities to buy a DM or CM for 3 summer windows and only bought Thiago in (who was 29 and injury prone). It might well be that our targets went elsewhere, or he prioritised other positions, or he thought Ox/Keita might have an injury-free spell, or that we had deals lined up that fell through. But that's why I think everyone should keep a far more open mind about how things play out, as none of us truly knows what goes on or why things happen they way they do. Yet many jump on FSG, the transfer team, or make tacit suggestions that the club don't see what we do, or don't want to fix the problems, or just sit on their hands until the final day of the window.

That's pretty much it - we did buy players, but not the ones some people wanted, and not in the positions they wanted. We did spend money, but not as much money as people wanted, and not as much as some other teams (many of whom have spent several times more than us to go backwards).
I think we’re coming up against teams more motivated than we are. This team SHOULD have been multi-league winners, had 2 lost CL finals and would have earned their place in the history of the game had they pulled last season off. Rightly or wrongly it’s going to be difficult motivating them for a top 4 battle. You’re not telling me it doesn’t get to the team seeing Haaland banging them in for City. Again I’m not excusing the team’s mentality, just trying to rationalise it in context.

Add on the obvious squad building issues, and I think this season’s struggles are somewhat inevitable. Freshening the squad up helps the motivation side of things too as well as adding to the quality of the team, but clearly that task now lies at Klopp’s door.



How thick can you be. It wasn't a case of losing all three of VVD, Gomez and Matip.

As soon as we lost ONE of them we no longer had a senior centre  back on the bench
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Offline ThePoolMan

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I could point out a crack in a cathedral but I couldn’t fix it…

In our case, I think it’s personnel and tired minds and legs. Not sure how we fix things without making major changes to the system and becoming very pragmatic.

Well, thats why they get paid the big bucks because they know how to fix cracks in cathedrals....but having said that, once one isolates the actual structural problem, isn't the technical solution going to be obvious to an experienced and trained coach? It becomes just a matter of reorganising the formation and drilling the correct responses into the team during training, doesn't it? Unless the present chaos is he result of a particular technical solution that they are persisting with despite the issues they are having with it...

Offline Dave McCoy

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Why do you have to be so confrontational all the time. We all support the same team, can't we find some common ground ?

No. If all you want to deal in is conspiracy and fantasy then while you can say we support the same team then that's probably as far as our commonality extends.


Offline liverbloke

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with regards to the sub thread going on in parts of this thread - the doom-mongering

i think it's unfair to label many fans as bed-wetters and the like

we are all entitled to our opinion and even though there are some bizarre comments fans should still be able to make them - free speech and all that please

and you have to admit that it's good to question the running of the club, the management of the team, the commitment and ability of the players because in the past we have seen the rot set in and if nobody voices their concerns then it could end badly for us all: the club and the fans

so, yes, some of the negative posts are extraordinary but they should be aired and heard as criticism goes hand in hand with praise
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Online Stockholm Syndrome

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I mean, we've got a lad who can run hard and fast, and cross and pass the ball as well as anyone who isn't called Kevin, but apparently trying him in midfield simply isn't an option.

To be fair, whenever he has occupied a role in that midfield (as he drifts into a lot now), he hasn't looked like creating much, scoring much, or doing much. Where as when he played more as a natural wing back he has created tonnes, got loads of assists, and looked class.

Trent has all the mechanics to be a midfielder except for the fact that he doesn't work in midfield. Similar to how Sterling had all the attributes to be a number 9 striker except for the fact that he never knew how to play like that.

How Trent has been this year, where by he looks significantly less effective both attacking and defensively when he moves into the middle, shows to me this idea of moving him to midfield won't really work too well.

I don't know why exactly but from the looks of it despite looking like he has what you need, he looks like he can't play midfield too well

Offline Andypandimonium

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Time to give RAWK a swerve for a bit I reckon. Business this, investment that...little sign of football being a sport any more. Ups and downs all part of the ride. Hopefully the ticket site will quieten down whilst the hordes are doing their best Kwasi impersonation on here.

Imagine if we don't beat The Rangers... :o

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To be fair, whenever he has occupied a role in that midfield (as he drifts into a lot now), he hasn't looked like creating much, scoring much, or doing much. Where as when he played more as a natural wing back he has created tonnes, got loads of assists, and looked class.

Trent has all the mechanics to be a midfielder except for the fact that he doesn't work in midfield. Similar to how Sterling had all the attributes to be a number 9 striker except for the fact that he never knew how to play like that.

How Trent has been this year, where by he looks significantly less effective both attacking and defensively when he moves into the middle, shows to me this idea of moving him to midfield won't really work too well.

I don't know why exactly but from the looks of it despite looking like he has what you need, he looks like he can't play midfield too well
Trent's not really been tried there but it is a bit reminiscent of Beckham apparently always seeing himself as a central midfielder but Ferguson knowing he hadn't got the all around game to play there.

Our midfield more than most is about tactical and positional discipline.  Thiago gets a bit of license to play his way but he's still doing all the basics to an extremely high level.  Weren't there some leaks from the Keita camp that he felt his natural attacking game was being stifled by our tactics?

Trent could be coached to play in our midfield, I'm sure, but it certainly wouldn't be overnight.  He's often compared to de Bruyne due to both having extreme technical ability but de Bruyne has a decade or more of experience in the role.  de Bruyne also plays a role that simply doesn't exist in our midfield.

Even without all that we don't have anyone comparable at right back.

I'd happily settle for finding a way to get Trent the right back playing that role to his usual standards again.  He showed in the 2019/20 run-in that he's got the character to drag the team through when they're up against it and he did that whilst playing at right back.

Offline lollysportswasher

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Let City and Madrid have a bidding war over Jude, I'd rather have 2/3 decent midfielders over blowing 150 mill on 1 player. Best case scenario Jude moves to Madrid so it won't have any effect on us or the league. 

Offline MD1990

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You always see this when a big club struggles lack of motivation.
That is not  the problem.
We are playing in a league that is the most physically demanding trying to play a high pressing game with a old team.

The team is far too old to play this style mostly the midfield.
Bt we are overplayed so many players since 2017 that some players peak may be sooner than we thought.
Fabinho was never the quickest but is way off the pace in terms on anticipation also.

Firmino who played far less games last season has found form with is the only real positive atm

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The team is far too old to play this style mostly the midfield.


I think the biggest red flag for me that this season was going to be a bit shite was when I saw an article that had us as the oldest starting 11 in the league. You try and shrug it off but quite simply you won't challenge for the league, state funded team or not, with the oldest side around. It's incredible how many problems have come together so quickly for us this year but the failure to invest - particularly in the summers of 19 and 21 - feel like they've very much caught up with us now. I'd snap your hand off for 4th place right now and whilst I appreciate there will be many who think it's sacrosanct to say things like this on RAWK - I am absolutely fucking dreading the arsenal and city games.
3 midfielders minimum in the next window. And probably another young CB to boot.

Anything else is negligent.

Online Eeyore

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Let City and Madrid have a bidding war over Jude, I'd rather have 2/3 decent midfielders over blowing 150 mill on 1 player. Best case scenario Jude moves to Madrid so it won't have any effect on us or the league. 

That worked out well with Haaland.
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You always see this when a big club struggles lack of motivation.
That is not  the problem.
We are playing in a league that is the most physically demanding trying to play a high pressing game with a old team.

Firmino who played far less games last season has found form with is the only real positive atm

Yeah, Bobby was used quite sparingly last season and as a result is looking a lot brighter than most in the team this term. Diaz still has energy and Jota probably will have some spare to. The rest of the outfield team just look completely physically and mentally shattered.
- all in my opinion of course -

Online Eeyore

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No. If all you want to deal in is conspiracy and fantasy then while you can say we support the same team then that's probably as far as our commonality extends.



See here is some commonality. I agree you should cut out the conspiracy nonsense.

That one about me and the mods conspiring to allow me to perform some outlandish sock puppet role was a belter.

It is clear you are not a mod though as you would have banned everyone by now.
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Offline Historical Fool

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That worked out well with Haaland.

How do you have a bidding war when there’s a release clause???
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Offline El Lobo

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How do you have a bidding war when there’s a release clause???

Did you really have to ask him that? :duh
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Historical Fool

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Did you really have to ask him that? :duh

Was my question wrong though. I don’t see it. I mean if he uses his other account to ban me then so be it.
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Offline keyop

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Why do you have to be so confrontational all the time.
How thick can you be. It wasn't a case of losing all three of VVD, Gomez and Matip.

As soon as we lost ONE of them we no longer had a senior centre  back on the bench
Pot meet kettle. You question one poster as confrontational, whilst insulting another.

When you resort to petty insults Al, then you've already lost the argument. It also makes your favourite 'play the ball not the man' retort completely redundant.

Calling another poster confrontational is quite some accusation from arguably the most confrontational poster on this site. You actively seek out arguments about the owners in almost every thread and can't back down (even when clearly proven wrong time and time again), and twist every argument until posters just give up out of boredom (or indifference) because they don't always need to have the final word.

You read my post and all you can come up with is that our defence was vulnerable to injury in 2020? No shit. If CB was such an urgent priority in 2020, then why didn't Jurgen buy a CB and why didn't he foresee what you and others so clearly could? Did FSG have a gun to his head forcing him to spend £75m on a LB, CM and CF that summer?

My post clearly set out all the facts with actual names, dates and transfers, and all you can respond with is a crass comment. I've called out your flawed Lovren theory for what it is, and I put forward a reasonable argument that Jurgen ultimately decides who we buy, who he stays loyal to, and which positions are priority. To you, Jurgen is the messiah - and he is to many of us too. But you can't deny he had the opportunity to buy a CB in 2020, or a midfielder last summer, or possibly two this summer. FSG didn't have a gun to his head telling him that Thiago, Jota, and Tsimikas were his only options, or that he had to spend £110m on Diaz and Nunez. In fact, many were surprised at the Jota signing in 2020 as he wasn't on anyone's radar, and we clearly had injury risks in defence, plus ageing players in midfield to address at the time. Diaz was also relatively unexpected (and a bonus January buy) when we already had 4 quality forwards (including Jota who can play that position well). We corrected the defensive gap in 2021 by buying Konate, which some have said was a year too late (and they'd probably be right), but who was it that decided not to buy a CB in 2020? If we had, we could've spent the £40m Konate fee on a CM in 2021 instead, and we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

I think many on here turn a blind eye to who we did actually buy, and only focus on who we didn't buy - which ignores decisions made by Jurgen and the recruitment team. Many also ignore the £85m and £250,000 per week we've invested in Ox/Keita for almost 5 years - actual midfielders we've actually bought as part of our long term succession plan, but who haven't worked out. It's no individual's fault they've spent so long unavailable for selection, but those two seem to be conveniently ignored even though they have a bearing on our squad numbers, wage bill, and which midfield Jurgen can select each week. Those two have played a bigger part in our midfield issues than many give credit for.

The types of arguments used for Jurgen's squad building and financial restrictions are so selective, so full of speculation and conjecture, and often completely ignorant of facts that are all in the public domain and in front of our eyes. Every time you're called out on here for one of your theories, you simply go away and  think up any possible retort (or spurious information you can find) instead of actually admitting you were wrong (even partly wrong would be progress...), or accepting that Jurgen actually isn't infallible with his decisions, and that transfers and squad building isn't like a computer game (as some of the reductionist views on here seem to suggest). Last season must've been torture for you, as you rarely had the opportunity to put forward all the negativity, criticism and conspiracy theories you so clearly thrive upon. It's such a bizarre way to support a football club.

Your desperation to find fault, to apportion blame, and to somehow justify your deeply entranced view is clear as day. You're almost entirely absent on many of the threads when things are going well, and immediately jump on any possible post that has even the most tenuous link to the owners, then dominate the thread with your views and repeat the exact same arguments ad infinitum. It's as predictable as night turns to day, and has ruined countless threads for years, with many posters just giving up as they can't be bothered with your incessant ramblings.

Your desire to have the last word and provoke a response is matched only by your ability to manufacture an infinite number of spurious arguments, combined with a habit of presenting your own opinions, assumptions and conjectures as fact.

I must remember to login before viewing this site, as otherwise the ignore function doesn't work and unfortunately I'm forced to see your posts again.
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Offline Historical Fool

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I must remember to login before viewing this site, as otherwise the ignore function doesn't work and unfortunately I'm forced to see your posts again.

Alright fine, I’ll help you do it, I’ll quote every one of his posts and tag you.
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Offline Machae

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How do you have a bidding war when there’s a release clause???

Paying his agent and dad wasn't it (plus a massive salary) rather than the fee to Dortmund

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Pot meet kettle. You question one poster as confrontational, whilst insulting another.

When you resort to petty insults Al, then you've already lost the argument. It also makes your favourite 'play the ball not the man' retort completely redundant.

Calling another poster confrontational is quite some accusation from arguably the most confrontational poster on this site. You actively seek out arguments about the owners in almost every thread and can't back down (even when clearly proven wrong time and time again), and twist every argument until posters just give up out of boredom (or indifference) because they don't always need to have the final word.

You read my post and all you can come up with is that our defence was vulnerable to injury in 2020? No shit. If CB was such an urgent priority in 2020, then why didn't Jurgen buy a CB and why didn't he foresee what you and others so clearly could? Did FSG have a gun to his head forcing him to spend £75m on a LB, CM and CF that summer?

My post clearly set out all the facts with actual names, dates and transfers, and all you can respond with is a crass comment. I've called out your flawed Lovren theory for what it is, and I put forward a reasonable argument that Jurgen ultimately decides who we buy, who he stays loyal to, and which positions are priority. To you, Jurgen is the messiah - and he is to many of us too. But you can't deny he had the opportunity to buy a CB in 2020, or a midfielder last summer, or possibly two this summer. FSG didn't have a gun to his head telling him that Thiago, Jota, and Tsimikas were his only options, or that he had to spend £110m on Diaz and Nunez. In fact, many were surprised at the Jota signing in 2020 as he wasn't on anyone's radar, and we clearly had injury risks in defence, plus ageing players in midfield to address at the time. Diaz was also relatively unexpected (and a bonus January buy) when we already had 4 quality forwards (including Jota who can play that position well). We corrected the defensive gap in 2021 by buying Konate, which some have said was a year too late (and they'd probably be right), but who was it that decided not to buy a CB in 2020? If we had, we could've spent the £40m Konate fee on a CM in 2021 instead, and we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

I think many on here turn a blind eye to who we did actually buy, and only focus on who we didn't buy - which ignores decisions made by Jurgen and the recruitment team. Many also ignore the £85m and £250,000 per week we've invested in Ox/Keita for almost 5 years - actual midfielders we've actually bought as part of our long term succession plan, but who haven't worked out. It's no individual's fault they've spent so long unavailable for selection, but those two seem to be conveniently ignored even though they have a bearing on our squad numbers, wage bill, and which midfield Jurgen can select each week. Those two have played a bigger part in our midfield issues than many give credit for.

The types of arguments used for Jurgen's squad building and financial restrictions are so selective, so full of speculation and conjecture, and often completely ignorant of facts that are all in the public domain and in front of our eyes. Every time you're called out on here for one of your theories, you simply go away and  think up any possible retort (or spurious information you can find) instead of actually admitting you were wrong (even partly wrong would be progress...), or accepting that Jurgen actually isn't infallible with his decisions, and that transfers and squad building isn't like a computer game (as some of the reductionist views on here seem to suggest). Last season must've been torture for you, as you rarely had the opportunity to put forward all the negativity, criticism and conspiracy theories you so clearly thrive upon. It's such a bizarre way to support a football club.

Your desperation to find fault, to apportion blame, and to somehow justify your deeply entranced view is clear as day. You're almost entirely absent on many of the threads when things are going well, and immediately jump on any possible post that has even the most tenuous link to the owners, then dominate the thread with your views and repeat the exact same arguments ad infinitum. It's as predictable as night turns to day, and has ruined countless threads for years, with many posters just giving up as they can't be bothered with your incessant ramblings.

Your desire to have the last word and provoke a response is matched only by your ability to manufacture an infinite number of spurious arguments, combined with a habit of presenting your own opinions, assumptions and conjectures as fact.

I must remember to login before viewing this site, as otherwise the ignore function doesn't work and unfortunately I'm forced to see your posts again.

Firstly I would like to apologise for being confrontational.

The bit I don't get is how you can blame Klopp for not signing a centre back when he simply didn't have the funds to buy one as evidenced by the January window debacle.

In 2019 we won the CL which brought a £100m into the coffers. His reward was getting a zero transfer budget. He had to embarrass himself and back out of the Werner deal and what he got to spend was what we raised in the transfer market plus using a chunk of the following seasons transfer budget on Jota. The Jota deal only happened because Wolves accepted a tiny percentage of the fee upfront.

You are somehow blaming Klopp for signing a backup for Robbo and a backup for an ageing front three

The third player was Thiago a deal only made possible by selling Lovren and not replacing him. How farcical was that. Klopp was forced to either leave us short in attack, short at left back or short at centre back. What kind of reward is that for winning a CL.

So Klopp leaves us short at centre back. When we end up with VVD and Gomez out for the season they still don't bring in a centre back. That is despite you stating that Klopp is in charge of recruitment.

It doesn't end there though. The need to replace Lovren and having to pay a bigger chunk of the Jota fee means the transfer budget has gone and we can't replace Gini.



"Ohhh-kayyy"

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Paying his agent and dad wasn't it (plus a massive salary) rather than the fee to Dortmund
Yes, reported at being over £40m to Raiola's agency.  That's less than the £50m that Man U bunged Raiola to get Pogba but I always take any published finance figures involving Man City with a large pinch of salt (i.e. they notoriously underreport expenditure and overreport income).  No official fee paid to Alf but who knows on that score?

I think FIFA are, or at least were, trying to cap agent fees at 10% of the transfer fee (or maybe future earnings within the agreed contract??).  It's a nice idea but feels like something agents would work around quite easily.

The Nunez fee was higher but the package was less and his salary is £140k/week compared to £375k/week for Haaland.  With us giving Mo a new contract at a bit less than Haaland we weren't going to immediately blow our wage structure.

Anyway, the Brighton game showed that you don't need to chase the superstars.  Trossard cost less than £20m and earns less than £50k/week.

Offline ThePoolMan

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How do you have a bidding war when there’s a release clause???

The transfer fee to dortmund was only.a small part of the overall cost. Apparently the real total cost was something like 213 million gbp including something like 50m to haaland snr.  It is also rumoured there is a release clause in the city contract which means haaland is likely to be on the move for even more money in a season or two.

Offline Ma Vie en Rouge

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Well, thats why they get paid the big bucks because they know how to fix cracks in cathedrals....but having said that, once one isolates the actual structural problem, isn't the technical solution going to be obvious to an experienced and trained coach? It becomes just a matter of reorganising the formation and drilling the correct responses into the team during training, doesn't it? Unless the present chaos is he result of a particular technical solution that they are persisting with despite the issues they are having with it...

Perhaps we don't have the solution right now? We've hardly any viable midfield options, and no back-up full-backs apart from Milner. Klopp may well be able to see what is wrong (I'd wager he probably sees it rather more clearly than any of these "analysts".) But fixing it is obviously not simple, or - you know what - one of the best managers (the best, I think) in the world would probably have fixed it, dontcha reckon? Unless he suddenly turned into an idiot. I guess it could be that.

I'd suggest our manager is often loathe to dramatically change his system, like most managers (except Guardiola, occasionally, and it usually goes horrifically wrong). Perhaps the obvious ways to make us harder to beat means sacrificing too much on the other side of the ball? I don't know, but I think to say it's a matter of "reorganising the formation and drilling the correct responses..." as if that's the stuff of a couple of hours work, rather than weeks and months, is to ludicrously underestimate the complexity of modern football tactics.

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Firstly I would like to apologise for being confrontational.

The bit I don't get is how you can blame Klopp for not signing a centre back when he simply didn't have the funds to buy one as evidenced by the January window debacle.

In 2019 we won the CL which brought a £100m into the coffers. His reward was getting a zero transfer budget. He had to embarrass himself and back out of the Werner deal and what he got to spend was what we raised in the transfer market plus using a chunk of the following seasons transfer budget on Jota. The Jota deal only happened because Wolves accepted a tiny percentage of the fee upfront.

You are somehow blaming Klopp for signing a backup for Robbo and a backup for an ageing front three

The third player was Thiago a deal only made possible by selling Lovren and not replacing him. How farcical was that. Klopp was forced to either leave us short in attack, short at left back or short at centre back. What kind of reward is that for winning a CL.

So Klopp leaves us short at centre back. When we end up with VVD and Gomez out for the season they still don't bring in a centre back. That is despite you stating that Klopp is in charge of recruitment.

It doesn't end there though. The need to replace Lovren and having to pay a bigger chunk of the Jota fee means the transfer budget has gone and we can't replace Gini.

Keyop
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Offline ThePoolMan

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Perhaps we don't have the solution right now? We've hardly any viable midfield options, and no back-up full-backs apart from Milner. Klopp may well be able to see what is wrong (I'd wager he probably sees it rather more clearly than any of these "analysts".) But fixing it is obviously not simple, or - you know what - one of the best managers (the best, I think) in the world would probably have fixed it, dontcha reckon? Unless he suddenly turned into an idiot. I guess it could be that.

I'd suggest our manager is often loathe to dramatically change his system, like most managers (except Guardiola, occasionally, and it usually goes horrifically wrong). Perhaps the obvious ways to make us harder to beat means sacrificing too much on the other side of the ball? I don't know, but I think to say it's a matter of "reorganising the formation and drilling the correct responses..." as if that's the stuff of a couple of hours work, rather than weeks and months, is to ludicrously underestimate the complexity of modern football tactics.

There are concerns that I am sure we all have given how we have been playing and where despite the enforced lay off, we are just as bad after the layoff as before.  I trust you are also wondering why isn't klopp or the coaching team able to address and plug the holes given these are the sort of mistakes that can often be remedied even during half time instructions during a match. I was merely voicing those concerns - I don't have any answers why this is happening obviously. That does not mean that I am  suggesting klopp is an idiot! That is not what I am alleging at all, and he is obviously a very intelligent coach.  That makes it all the more mystifying why it is continuing.

Offline kasperoff

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I'm sure Klopp can see it! It's not aways easy to fix it though. It's also a dangerous game reacting too quickly to adversity. He's got to be sure it's a longer standing issue, and not just temporary. I'm sure he's giving the team a chance to play their way through it.

We can't knee-jerk to a new formation or strategy every time a few games don't go our way. This way of playing, and these players, have served us well for a long time.

As discussed, he's also somewhat hamstrung by the fact out midfield options are all pretty average at the moment. The midfield press is central to our identity and its gone.

And here we have it from the man himself. He's essentially saying the same thing:

"When you spot a problem and think you have the solution, you expect [it] to be instant. That's never the case in football," Klopp said.

"We've conceded similar goals now, they have gone through the same gaps.

"When the timing in our defending isn't perfect we're too open. So yes, we have to be more compact.

"Defending is an art and it worked for us really well for a long time. But with it not working, you realise you have to go back to the basics.

"We can't always start anew. If we can help the boys with ways to defend differently, we have to do that."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63121780
I think the same, can't stand him, but if you could have a £1million pound cheque or steve bruces head hollowed out and filled with pound coins which would you have?

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Thats basically the manager saying dont expect any huge tactical tweaks, formation changes etc. Not surprising, all that work should have been done and we had lots of gap pre-international break to do that. We also probably used up our bollocking quota after Fulham, Napoli and United.

Now its a case playing games, resting and then hoping our players get their confidence back.


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Not to mention the amount of grief you'd get if you came in after a win saying "fuck it lads, our squad needs refreshing as we're looking a bit old, and hasn't Ox been gone for ages?". People would be telling you to give yer head a wobble, labeling you a doom monger etc.

This interested me so I did that this season. That was the only way to test it.

Perhaps it was a reduction of expectations with how the season unfolded. I’d like to think it was a maturation of the online fan base. Regardless there weren’t any accusations of being a doom monger or wobbling of heads.

Well, on to next season it is.
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