Topic: The Murder of George Floyd and Black Lives Matter.

[ShakaHislop]

So the Democrats are part of the problem, all white people are part of the problem, the state as it is is supposedly irretrievably broken, so again, what is it that is meant to happen next after these protests? An actual revolution? Is that what people are meant to support African Americans in doing?

[The North Bank]

So the Democrats are part of the problem, all white people are part of the problem, the state as it is is supposedly irretrievably broken, so again, what is it that is meant to happen next after these protests? An actual revolution? Is that what people are meant to support African Americans in doing?

Change the law on the statute of guilt for the murder of black people by police officers. The standard for a criminal or civil guilt has been set so high for police officers that even when they get caught on camera murdering someone there is zero chance of prosecution.

That would be a good start. Afterwards white people can say what about us, we are not there yet.

[Cpt_Reina]

So the Democrats are part of the problem, all white people are part of the problem, the state as it is is supposedly irretrievably broken, so again, what is it that is meant to happen next after these protests? An actual revolution? Is that what people are meant to support African Americans in doing?

I mean, ideally. Yeah.

America needs it in many many ways.

Its not just it's issue with racial inequality which needs a complete overhaul though, it's financial inequality, healthcare inequality, workers rights, justice reform. They're all rife in America and in desperate need of radical change.

Doubt it goes as far as a full blown revolution because those who should all be getting involved are too fragmented but...fingers crossed.

[ShakaHislop]

Change the law on the statute of guilt for the murder of black people by police officers. The standard for a criminal or civil guilt has been set so high for police officers that even when they get caught on camera murdering someone there is zero chance of prosecution.

That would be a good start. Afterwards white people can say what about us, we are not there yet.

Trump isn't going to do that, so do these protests continue until November at least? What if he's re-elected?

Alternatively, if Biden is elected and does the above, what exactly is the next step? Or will that be left unclear and a false equivalence continue to be made between the Democrats and the Republicans?

[Red Viper]

So the Democrats are part of the problem, all white people are part of the problem, the state as it is is supposedly irretrievably broken, so again, what is it that is meant to happen next after these protests? An actual revolution? Is that what people are meant to support African Americans in doing?

I'd say some sort of revolution is what America needs.

[Snail]

So the Democrats are part of the problem, all white people are part of the problem, the state as it is is supposedly irretrievably broken, so again, what is it that is meant to happen next after these protests? An actual revolution? Is that what people are meant to support African Americans in doing?

Yes, we are. Own it and be an ally instead of... I don't know what it is you're doing, really. But frankly, yes, if the entire political/legal system is rigged (it is) and the only way to force change is revolution, then yes. Absolutely they should.

[Alan_X]

So the Democrats are part of the problem, all white people are part of the problem, the state as it is is supposedly irretrievably broken, so again, what is it that is meant to happen next after these protests? An actual revolution? Is that what people are meant to support African Americans in doing?

That's a very good question. Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was made in 1862. As Martin Luther King said in 1963, African Americans are still waiting to 'cash that check'.

There are a thousand things that need to happen. Racists need to stop being racists. The South needs to accept that they lost the Civil War. Angry white men need to stop going on about the 2nd Amendment when they're really talking about having guns to 'protect themselves' from black people. The police need to stop arresting or killing people for offences such as 'driving while black' or 'jogging while black'....

[Gerry Attrick]

It's incredible the USA has remained as one for so long, some states are almost incompatible with each other. The difference between California and Indiana is like Germany and Russia.

[ShakaHislop]

Yes, we are. Own it and be an ally instead of... I don't know what it is you're doing, really. But frankly, yes, if the entire political/legal system is rigged (it is) and the only way to force change is revolution, then yes. Absolutely they should.

Are you talking about physically overthrowing the Trump administration? Because I don't see how else you change the "rigged" political and legal systems otherwise?

[OOS]

This is probably going to offend some of you, but it needs to be said: if you're white and your first reaction is to tone police minorities then you are absolutely part of the problem. You might not be racist, you might not be the ones murdering these black men and women, but you're more than happy to sit there and impede change, to sit there and enable the systemic racism we're seeing and at that point as far as I'm concerned you're no better.

You are right, and I believe what is holding back society is unconscious bias. As a white male, it would be ignorant to deny I have it, and it is uncomfortable. It should be uncomfortable. It's easy for white people to say they are anti-racist, but actions speak louder than words. White people should be quiet and amplify black voices, empathize, learn and listen.

I was brought up in a white family, lived in a part of Liverpool which is 92+% white, went to a Primary and Secondary school which over 95% of student were white, all my friends are white, work in a workplace which is over 90+ white. I have no idea what it's like to live as POC, so I'm keeping my mouth shut, listening and learning.

[Caligula?]

That's a very good question. Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was made in 1862. As Martin Luther King said in 1963, African Americans are still waiting to 'cash that check'.

There are a thousand things that need to happen. Racists need to stop being racists. The South needs to accept that they lost the Civil War. Angry white men need to stop going on about the 2nd Amendment when they're really talking about having guns to 'protect themselves' from black people. The police need to stop arresting or killing people for offences such as 'driving while black' or 'jogging while black'....

I wish it were that simple, Alan. There are people alive today whose grandparents were born into slavery. Segregation in the south ended just a little over 50 years ago. There are people alive today who happily lived through that time period and then went on to teach their children the same brand of hatred as themselves, who in turn have taught their children as well despite it being abolished. What kind of law can you make for that?

[I've been a good boy]

I fucking despair at #alllivesmatter. Fucking racist wankers.

The absolute dumbest of creation. Events like this really show the true colours of people. Glad to see Trump exposed and also the Diana situation put into light

[Cpt_Reina]

Are you talking about physically overthrowing the Trump administration? Because I don't see how else you change the "rigged" political and legal systems otherwise?

Its rigged. Not "rigged".

A simple Google of incarceration rates per ethicity will tell you that punctuation isn't required.

[ShakaHislop]

Its rigged. Not "rigged".

A simple Google of incarceration rates per ethicity will tell you that punctuation isn't required.

Can you answer my question about the physical revolution?

[Cpt_Reina]

Can you answer my question about the physical revolution?

Already did.

[Snail]

Are you talking about physically overthrowing the Trump administration? Because I don't see how else you change the "rigged" political and legal systems otherwise?

Well, yes, that would have to happen first and many (more) lives would be lost so I'm not going to sit on my arse here in Liverpool and say what Americans should or shouldn't do. But he's not the only problem here. If Biden wins in November (I don't personally think he will, I also think there'll be foul play from the Republicans and things could turn very ugly again very fast, assuming things have calmed down at all by then) it's not going to magically make everything better. What we're seeing in the US right now is the cumulative effect of centuries and it all needs tearing up and starting again.

Failing that, a root and branch clear out of police departments across the country - from the top brass down to the newest recruits, a complete overhaul of the recruitment process, and introducing actual real accountability and consequences for pieces of shit like Chauvin and the countless other murderers with their ranks who are currently enjoying full pensions. But I fear we'd only see the same thing happen again down the line, and it wouldn't solve everything - far from it.

[AndyMuller]

You are right, and I believe what is holding back society is unconscious bias. As a white male, it would be ignorant to deny I have it, and it is uncomfortable. It should be uncomfortable. It's easy for white people to say they are anti-racist, but actions speak louder than words. White people should be quiet and amplify black voices, empathize, learn and listen.

I was brought up in a white family, lived in a part of Liverpool which is 92+% white, went to a Primary and Secondary school which over 95% of student were white, all my friends are white, work in a workplace which is over 90+ white. I have no idea what it's like to live as POC, so I'm keeping my mouth shut, listening and learning.

Spot on mate.

[eddymunster]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing

Cheers, I was reading "Tone, police minorities", rather than "tone police, minorities".

[Dench57]

Cheers, I was reading "Tone, police minorities", rather than "tone police, minorities".

same, took me a few attempts 

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Change the law on the statute of guilt for the murder of black people by police officers. The standard for a criminal or civil guilt has been set so high for police officers that even when they get caught on camera murdering someone there is zero chance of prosecution.

That would be a good start. Afterwards white people can say what about us, we are not there yet.

not just murder of black people, needs to be police brutality/abuse of power full stop regardless of race (as that would play very nicely into the hands of the far right if it’s solely focused on black people so don’t give them that opportunity to make this a race issue so stick to the police brutality issue), can’t let this turn into an identity politics issue by focusing on one group as it goes beyond that and it’s goes beyond the cops on the street (Ahmaud Arbery case for example) so it needs to be framed as a law enforcement issue, quite a lot of hispanics are killed by police as well (not as high as black people but still pretty noticeable)

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

do things like ban law enforcement/judiciary from being involved in certain groups (not just the likes of the klan and left/right extremist groups but stuff like Freemasons), would even go as far as making sure they aren’t affiliated/members of political parties, and to have to give all details of things like social media accounts and if they are found to have other accounts that aren’t disclosed they’re fired on the spot (from memory a fair few have been in white supremacist Facebook groups) barring it being part of undercover work, random drug tests to catch out the roiders and if you’ve been kicked out of one force you can’t get a job at a neighbouring county (think something John Oliver did years ago on cops being fired getting a job a few weeks later at another county in that state) or any other force

[johnybarnes]

Vote for better people. People who don't just become part of the political system and decide its better to keep their job than to help their constituents. And that's not just politicians it should be police chiefs, union delegates, etc.

As Cornel West highlighted, BLM emerged under a black president, a black attorney general and a black homeland security and they could not deliver.

[The North Bank]

Trump isn't going to do that, so do these protests continue until November at least? What if he's re-elected?

Alternatively, if Biden is elected and does the above, what exactly is the next step? Or will that be left unclear and a false equivalence continue to be made between the Democrats and the Republicans?

If they want the protests to end they have to change things, ball in the court of the leadership now.

This isn't a democrat / republic issue, in the long term it isn't a black and white issue, its a right and wrong issue. Oppression and murder is wrong. America can become actually free and democratic, or become an Apartheid state, the options are open.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

As Cornel West highlighted, BLM emerged under a black president, a black attorney general and a black homeland security and they could not deliver.

could have something to do with a republican controlled congress and senate with a large number of tea party nutters for 6 of the 8 years

[Phil M]

Just listening to James O'Brien then and someone he has on was making the point that 'Antifa' isn't an actual organisation. So Trump declaring they'll be treated as terrorists means little as there's no actual identifiable 'they'.

[The North Bank]

not just murder of black people, needs to be police brutality/abuse of power full stop regardless of race (as that would play very nicely into the hands of the far right if it’s solely focused on black people so don’t give them that opportunity to make this a race issue so stick to the police brutality issue), can’t let this turn into an identity politics issue by focusing on one group as it goes beyond that and it’s goes beyond the cops on the street (Ahmaud Arbery case for example) so it needs to be framed as a law enforcement issue, quite a lot of hispanics are killed by police as well (not as high as black people but still pretty noticeable)

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

do things like ban law enforcement/judiciary from being involved in certain groups (not just the likes of the klan and left/right extremist groups but stuff like Freemasons), would even go as far as making sure they aren’t affiliated/members of political parties, and to have to give all details of things like social media accounts and if they are found to have other accounts that aren’t disclosed they’re fired on the spot (from memory a fair few have been in white supremacist Facebook groups) barring it being part of undercover work, random drug tests to catch out the roiders and if you’ve been kicked out of one force you can’t get a job at a neighbouring county (think something John Oliver did years ago on cops being fired getting a job a few weeks later at another county in that state) or any other force

Yes making murder illegal is just a first step, sounds pretty straightforward but apparently it isn't. Then they need a systemic overhaul of the police and judiciary system because its clearly corrupt.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Just listening to James O'Brien then and someone he has on was making the point that 'Antifa' isn't an actual organisation. So Trump declaring they'll be treated as terrorists means little as there's no actual identifiable 'they'.

Neither was Al Qaeda to begin with.

[Red Viper]

Neither was Al Qaead to begin with.

What kind of comparison is that?

[Snail]

Neither was Al Qaead to begin with.

For heaven's sake.

[Red Viper]

Just listening to James O'Brien then and someone he has on was making the point that 'Antifa' isn't an actual organisation. So Trump declaring they'll be treated as terrorists means little as there's no actual identifiable 'they'.

It's almost like a shallow attempt by a corrupt leader to have anyone who protests against him being labelled as a terorrist.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Yes making murder illegal is just a first step, sounds pretty straightforward but apparently it isn't. Then they need a systemic overhaul of the police and judiciary system because its clearly corrupt.

thought it was more the whole ‘self defence’ stuff that is their out, some of the cop killings will fall under self defence but stuff like George floyd and the autistic kid that was killed a while ago because the kid wasn’t ‘complying’ or something like that (and that kid didn’t have a gun or anything on him i think) does not and of course as I mentioned yesterday why it took so long to arrest him after firing him is another huge question for the people above chauvin as when the video was out there you could sack him but thought that’d be sufficient??

[BarryCrocker]

Just listening to James O'Brien then and someone he has on was making the point that 'Antifa' isn't an actual organisation. So Trump declaring they'll be treated as terrorists means little as there's no actual identifiable 'they'.

Slippery slope if he does. Imagine what a Democrat could do if they got in?

President Donald Trump's announcement that his administration will designate Antifa as a terrorist organization is surely unconstitutional because it would effectively criminalize joining an American domestic ideological group.

Thanks to the First Amendment, the US government has historically avoided designating domestic groups on both the left and right as terrorist. Belonging to such groups is consistent with the legitimate exercise of your First Amendment right to freedom of speech and belief — whether you are a white supremacist or an environmental activist.

Of course, should an American citizen commit a crime in service of her extremist beliefs she can be prosecuted for that crime, but she can't be prosecuted for merely belonging to the group, no matter how objectionable its views might be...

If Trump succeeds in designating Antifa it potentially opens the door for American citizens to be charged for merely holding their beliefs — even if they are extreme and at times, militant.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/31/opinions/trump-antifa-domestic-terrorist-bergen/index.html

[johnybarnes]

could have something to do with a republican controlled congress and senate with a large number of tea party nutters for 6 of the 8 years

That could have something to do with Obama kicking many marginalised people out of their homes. Despite massive fraud being carried out during the housing bubble and the ensuing crash, no major bank and none of their top executives were convicted of anything.  Not one.

As former Wall Street analyst Yves Smith wrote in her book ECONned: "What went on at Lehman and AIG, as well as the chicanery in the CDO [collateralized debt obligation] business, by any sensible standard is criminal." Even lifelong Wall Street defender Alan Greenspan, the former Federal Reserve Chair, said in Congressional testimony that "a lot of that stuff was just plain fraud."

Obama acted to protect the most powerful factions in the society in the face of overwhelming evidence of serious criminality. Financial elites were not only vested with impunity for their fraud, but thrived as a result of it, even as ordinary Americans continue to suffer the effects of that crisis. Obama justice officials both shielded and feted these WallStreet oligarchs (who just happened to overwhelmingly support  Obama's 2008 presidential campaign) as they simultaneously prosecuted and imprisoned powerless Americans for far more trivial transgressions.

‘No political obstacle stood between President Obama and a better housing policy. On the contrary, his heavily bank-slanted policy cost the Democrats dearly: mass foreclosure, and the associated economic wreckage, is a large part of why his party was crushed in the 2010 midterms. Because African Americans were disproportionately victimized at all levels of the housing and foreclosure crises, they stood to gain the most from better policy. But because Obama’s approach failed cataclysmically, the first black president in American history turned out to be a disaster for black wealth’

https://jacobinmag.com/2017/12/obama-foreclosure-crisis-wealth-inequality

[Caligula?]

Well, yes, that would have to happen first and many (more) lives would be lost so I'm not going to sit on my arse here in Liverpool and say what Americans should or shouldn't do. But he's not the only problem here. If Biden wins in November (I don't personally think he will, I also think there'll be foul play from the Republicans and things could turn very ugly again very fast, assuming things have calmed down at all by then) it's not going to magically make everything better. What we're seeing in the US right now is the cumulative effect of centuries and it all needs tearing up and starting again.

Failing that, a root and branch clear out of police departments across the country - from the top brass down to the newest recruits, a complete overhaul of the recruitment process, and introducing actual real accountability and consequences for pieces of shit like Chauvin and the countless other murderers with their ranks who are currently enjoying full pensions. But I fear we'd only see the same thing happen again down the line, and it wouldn't solve everything - far from it.

Putting aside where you're from and where you live, how could you advocate for such a thing? What good would it do to have thousands of, if not tens of thousands of innocent people die in some sort of a new civil war or whatever happens after that? How long would it take for America - or whatever it's going to be called after the dust settles - to pick up the rubble? How many of these problems would still persist after that? How long would it truly take to eradicate income inequality, reform the justice system and improve race relations when you're tasked with rebuilding a society that's now been left in ruins and you must start anew? You'd perhaps be condemning a whole new generation to the same fate as before seeing as they'll be the ones tasked with rebuilding it all. It's kind of the same logic America has used when 'bombing for peace' in the Middle East. Don't worry, we'll save you from tyranny and oppression but first we'll have to kill your neighbors, destroy your homes and leave your nation in ruins! I mean, as sad as it is, Americans are to this day still divided over the last Civil War which ended more than 150 years ago!

Whilst some are incredibly quick to don on their Che Guevara shirts, I still have hope. What we're witnessing in America is something that we haven't witnessed since the marches for freedom back in the 1960's. And it's not going to go away. Foolishly or not, I still hold out hope that it can indeed lead to real change without the loss of too many more lives. Enough lives have been lost already. deFacto, Lush, and I now see that The North Bank have all mentioned it. As have others. That there are actual reforms that can take place today and in the coming weeks and months to come that can hopefully drastically change things for the better. Not all revolutions have to be armed insurrections of bloodshed and destruction.

[The North Bank]

thought it was more the whole ‘self defence’ stuff that is their out, some of the cop killings will fall under self defence but stuff like George floyd and the autistic kid that was killed a while ago because the kid wasn’t ‘complying’ or something like that (and that kid didn’t have a gun or anything on him i think) does not and of course as I mentioned yesterday why it took so long to arrest him after firing him is another huge question for the people above chauvin as when the video was out there you could sack him but thought that’d be sufficient??

They have ensured that there is always a way out.
Powerful unions, powerful politicians, some outright racist, some just maintain orderly racism.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

They have ensured that there is always a way out.
Powerful unions, powerful politicians, some outright racist, some just maintain orderly racism.

and of course regarding politics some (hello the GOP) love a good dog whistle to the racists/bigots/failures to guarantee they come out to vote for them

[ScouserAtHeart]

Just listening to James O'Brien then and someone he has on was making the point that 'Antifa' isn't an actual organisation. So Trump declaring they'll be treated as terrorists means little as there's no actual identifiable 'they'.

Anybody they don't like will be accused of being Antifa and locked up. The tweet's really not as silly as it sounds.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/31/politics/outside-influence-extremists-riots-us/index.html

[The North Bank]

and of course regarding politics some (hello the GOP) love a good dog whistle to the racists/bigots/failures to guarantee they come out to vote for them

Racism will always be there, its still here in the UK, undertones behind the scene. But at least if these spate of blatant unpunished murders and repeated miscarriages of justice stop and the police get real reforms, it would be a massive step in the right direction. Changing how people think and feel is a very long term process, but the unaccountability and regularity in which blacks get slaughtered by police officers needs to stop or anarchy is inevitable.

[Sheer Magnetism]

What kind of comparison is that?

Al Qaeda literally didn't exist before 9/11, it was in effect created by the CIA as an excuse to go to war in Afghanistan. Before that there were just a bunch of small organisations that were largely pushing a pro-Jihad Islamist agenda. If you can't see the possible parallels between that and Trump labelling Antifa as terrorists while armed police enforce strict curfews I don't know what to tell you.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Racism will always be there, its still here in the UK, undertones behind the scene. But at least if these spate of blatant unpunished murders and repeated miscarriages of justice stop and the police get real reforms, it would be a massive step in the right direction. Changing how people think and feel is a very long term process, but the unaccountability and regularity in which blacks get slaughtered by police officers needs to stop or anarchy is inevitable.

you will never eradicate racism/sexism/homophobia both at a subconscious level or an explicit level, but when it’s a country where only two parties are relevant when it comes to gaining power and one of them has clearly been trying to get the vote of the bigots by playing on their bigotry/ignorance etc it’s a big big part of the problem as it’s helped legitimise those views, as evidenced by who is in the White House these days