Author Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General (Read 1324130 times)

4pool · « **Reply #120 on:** August 15, 2017, 04:50:11 pm »

Quote from: penga on August 15, 2017, 04:22:54 pm

I'm tired of arguing with someone who knows that the Watford call wasn't offside flying against the actual written laws of the game and someone who does not apply common sense, trying to twist things completely out of proportion to suit his own argument. You still haven't explained why it wasn't offside and how it is justifiable in any way aside from calling the situation completely the opposite of what happened e.g. Mignolet "played" the ball, which still doesn't negate the fact Britos was impeding him from an offside position.

Just because an official gets a decision wrong doesn't necessarily mean they get dropped, nor does that decision necessarily constitute a "huge" mistake in the context of human error as it was a "tight call" in a chaotic situation with the ball and pin-balling all over the place but it was a huge mistake in the context of the game though. And on the replays it was clear to see for everyone, the pictures are there. The fact that you keep bringing why they wouldn't have reversed it based on your ridiculous assumption doesn't mean shit. No one here agrees with you bad luck

The question is...NOT...whether I think the Watford goal was offsides or not. Clearly YOU can't grasp that.

My whole line of posting is about the VAR system. Something you don't want to tackle.

You are 100% adamant the VAR official would rule that the goal shouldn't stand.

When in fact it will be up to Ref to decide. He will talk to his Assistant. He may or may not actually view the play again. And he will rule. Should the Ref decide his assistant is adamant there was no offsides, that's the end of that. Something unfathomable to you. So you keep trying to take it out on me. How and why the "team" of officials--Ref, Assistant, 4th official, and VAR official ( ex-ref) actually interpret the laws of the game is an unknown. What I am trying to point out, it is not 100% of the time they will agree with your take on things. Just like matches are conducted now VAR will NOT be a panacea to those that think all the calls will be corrected as they think. In fact it won't even be 90% of the time. After that is becomes a debate of the amount of corrected a calls on the pitch. Imho, it will be less than 75% of the time.

And i'll leave it this way, how many times last season was there an incident where the Ref in his report "saw' the incident and that was the end of that? Penalty, Dive, Red card, yellow card ( where "everyone" thinks it should have been a red like Kanes tackle on the Newcastle lad just last weekend). The interpretation of the Laws is up to the Ref. Makes no difference what that incident was, 99% of the time the Premier League says that's the way it is. VAR is not going to change that. And that IS the point.

ggcc14 · « **Reply #121 on:** August 15, 2017, 05:00:05 pm »

Has anyone mentioned the Kaka red in here...

4pool · « **Reply #122 on:** August 15, 2017, 05:04:28 pm »

Quote from: ggcc14 on August 15, 2017, 05:00:05 pm

Has anyone mentioned the Kaka red in here...

I did..

tubby · « **Reply #123 on:** August 15, 2017, 09:43:39 pm »

Wonder if Milner's goal today would've gone to the video ref.

Daniel Cabbaggio · « **Reply #124 on:** August 15, 2017, 09:55:01 pm »

What do people make of ref cam?? I like it personally,

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/OITbl-lDU0k" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/OITbl-lDU0k</a>

B0151? · « **Reply #125 on:** August 16, 2017, 01:01:30 pm »

Quote from: Daniel Cabbaggio on August 15, 2017, 09:55:01 pm

What do people make of ref cam?? I like it personally,

I'm in favour of it if we use it to make sure referees are treated with respect and dissent is punished.

Broad Spectrum · « **Reply #126 on:** August 16, 2017, 04:13:51 pm »

Yeah great way to combat dissent if it's used in combination with a mic.

4pool · « **Reply #127 on:** August 16, 2017, 07:15:14 pm »

They allows cameras on the Ref , Howard Webb will make a comeback...

penga · « **Reply #128 on:** August 17, 2017, 12:50:30 pm »

Quote from: 4pool on August 15, 2017, 04:50:11 pm

The question is...NOT...whether I think the Watford goal was offsides or not. Clearly YOU can't grasp that.

My whole line of posting is about the VAR system. Something you don't want to tackle.

You are 100% adamant the VAR official would rule that the goal shouldn't stand.

When in fact it will be up to Ref to decide. He will talk to his Assistant. He may or may not actually view the play again. And he will rule. Should the Ref decide his assistant is adamant there was no offsides, that's the end of that. Something unfathomable to you. So you keep trying to take it out on me. How and why the "team" of officials--Ref, Assistant, 4th official, and VAR official ( ex-ref) actually interpret the laws of the game is an unknown. What I am trying to point out, it is not 100% of the time they will agree with your take on things. Just like matches are conducted now VAR will NOT be a panacea to those that think all the calls will be corrected as they think. In fact it won't even be 90% of the time. After that is becomes a debate of the amount of corrected a calls on the pitch. Imho, it will be less than 75% of the time.

And i'll leave it this way, how many times last season was there an incident where the Ref in his report "saw' the incident and that was the end of that? Penalty, Dive, Red card, yellow card ( where "everyone" thinks it should have been a red like Kanes tackle on the Newcastle lad just last weekend). The interpretation of the Laws is up to the Ref. Makes no difference what that incident was, 99% of the time the Premier League says that's the way it is. VAR is not going to change that. And that IS the point.

So how do you know the VAR wouldn't have ruled the goal out? This is your own words.

"In the first place, the VAR wouldn't have taken the Watford goal away."
"The VAR ref that would find a reason to allow the goal. Silly.."

You make it sound like you definitely know they would allow the goal and even try to be condescending about it.

Your subsequent explanations of why this would be lacked logic and common sense no matter how much you try to dress it up. Furthermore offsides are a lot more black and white so there is very little "interpretation" needed to call it offside and the examples you provided are basically saying they would rule on something against the very clear laws of the game basically. Are you also saying a VAR who has multiple angles, slow motion and freeze-frame shots cannot make a better decision on if an offside is correct or not than the match official who views it only once and from one angle? And that the linesman will have the balls to overrule someone who has the above advantages in calling the decision as opposed to something more subjective and contextual like a foul/penalty? Applying common sense, I think not...

The other arguments on the VAR system have already been addressed in my previous posts. There is no point going in a circular argument with you on it again, just re-read it.

4pool · « **Reply #129 on:** August 17, 2017, 03:47:56 pm »

How do i know..

How do you know?

My logic is, if the Assistant made such an egregious error by not flagging for off sides and allowed the goal, when the Match assessors reviewed the match and that particular incident, the Assistant in question would have been pulled from the next weeks matches. Assessors grade them on every match and they are given their individual reports weekly. Usually Tuesday for the previous weekend matches.

As both Assistants from our match are scheduled to work Round 2 of the league this weekend, that tells me that the Assessor did not find any major error in positioning or ruling at the time for both the Referee and Assistant in question. Which might also indicate that a VAR official might have ruled the same way. Horror of horrors to you I know.

penga · « **Reply #130 on:** August 17, 2017, 05:51:15 pm »

Quote from: 4pool on August 17, 2017, 03:47:56 pm

How do i know..

How do you know?

My logic is, if the Assistant made such an egregious error by not flagging for off sides and allowed the goal, when the Match assessors reviewed the match and that particular incident, the Assistant in question would have been pulled from the next weeks matches. Assessors grade them on every match and they are given their individual reports weekly. Usually Tuesday for the previous weekend matches.

As both Assistants from our match are scheduled to work Round 2 of the league this weekend, that tells me that the Assessor did not find any major error in positioning or ruling at the time for both the Referee and Assistant in question. Which might also indicate that a VAR official might have ruled the same way. Horror of horrors to you I know.

Poor logic and already explained above. Anyway agree to disagree.

4pool · « **Reply #131 on:** August 17, 2017, 06:44:16 pm »

Quote from: penga on August 17, 2017, 05:51:15 pm

Poor logic and already explained above. Anyway agree to disagree.

Poor logic?

You are a special case.

The assessors are going to be the VAR officials. Who do you think is available to be the VAR official if it isn't officials in the game who have moved on due to age?

You think the Premier League is going to trust anyone off the street to fill the job for their billion £ industry?
You think they'll let Danny Murphy, Phil Neville, Andy Gray, and Martin Tyler will be VAR officials..

So the same people who rate officials are going to be part of the official match day crew. People that have trained those out on the pitch, worked with them for years.

Now if the very same people haven't reprimanded the Watford v Liverpool match officials for their egregious error in awarding the third goal to Watford, what the hell makes you think they will change the call just by being a VAR on the day?

Poor logic indeed..

Broad Spectrum · « **Reply #132 on:** August 17, 2017, 08:18:02 pm »

Quote from: 4pool on August 17, 2017, 06:44:16 pm

Poor logic?

You are a special case.

The assessors are going to be the VAR officials. Who do you think is available to be the VAR official if it isn't officials in the game who have moved on due to age?

You think the Premier League is going to trust anyone off the street to fill the job for their billion £ industry?
You think they'll let Danny Murphy, Phil Neville, Andy Gray, and Martin Tyler will be VAR officials..

So the same people who rate officials are going to be part of the official match day crew. People that have trained those out on the pitch, worked with them for years.

Now if the very same people haven't reprimanded the Watford v Liverpool match officials for their egregious error in awarding the third goal to Watford, what the hell makes you think they will change the call just by being a VAR on the day?

Poor logic indeed..

Why can't they just train new VAR officials? A robust training programme and list of offences which can be reviewed on VAR would ensure well trained officials.

I think you're getting at another point entirely though, which is the current rule book leaves far too much open for interpretation. It might sound mad, but I seriously think they need to provide real life examples as much as possible, and just amend and clarify the rule book. For me, if the ambiguity around rules is addressed, then the overall quality in decision making from officials in football will naturally improve.

4pool · « **Reply #133 on:** August 17, 2017, 09:14:24 pm »

Quote from: Broad Spectrum on August 17, 2017, 08:18:02 pm

Why can't they just train new VAR officials? A robust training programme and list of offences which can be reviewed on VAR would ensure well trained officials.

I think you're getting at another point entirely though, which is the current rule book leaves far too much open for interpretation. It might sound mad, but I seriously think they need to provide real life examples as much as possible, and just amend and clarify the rule book. For me, if the ambiguity around rules is addressed, then the overall quality in decision making from officials in football will naturally improve.

The thing is the Premier League are going to want to protect their billion pound investment.

Clubs and managers aren't going to want "trainee's" ruling on incidents.

If anyone hasn't seen this, Carra and Neville trying to be a linesman. Watch and play along.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pGMRN5KN8M

Which is why FIFA and other bodies will use "qualified" people to be VAR officials. Someone who knows the rules, has been there on the pitch, and "understands" the game.

By understanding, and maybe this is where some may not agree, I believe the VAR will watch in real time. Not super slow motion. The VAR will need to rule on if an official made an error of judgement. So when it comes to offsides, imho, the VAR official only notify the ref if in an incident that the match official on the pitch missed something or made an egregious error. "Close" calls will always go to the match officials.

Like I said, they train together and are a team together.

It could be, as we're talking the Watford goal, the next day they go over it and the Assistant explains his call. The others go, right I can see that, and that's the end of it. Not, you dummy look at it in slow motion and you can see the offsides or interference on the keeper. The Assistant doesn't get 3-4-5 replays to make the call. The VAR can look at multiple angles and slow things down. If it comes to over ruling the match official due to slow motion, then the game will move to having no Assistants. Only a Ref to blow up and give out cards. And at that point, it ceases to be football at least for me.

Broad Spectrum · « **Reply #134 on:** August 21, 2017, 09:00:21 pm »

Great example in the City/Everton match for Walkers second yellow where VAR could have been used very effectively. I imagine Madley has thought Walker has lead with his elbow there when establishing his position. Replay clearly shows he didn't, wasn't a second yellow. Ref should be able to review those decisions, as that's the difference between a foul with no card, or a foul with a yellow or possibly red card.

4pool · « **Reply #135 on:** August 21, 2017, 09:10:24 pm »

Quote from: Broad Spectrum on August 21, 2017, 09:00:21 pm

Great example in the City/Everton match for Walkers second yellow where VAR could have been used very effectively. I imagine Madley has thought Walker has lead with his elbow there when establishing his position. Replay clearly shows he didn't, wasn't a second yellow. Ref should be able to review those decisions, as that's the difference between a foul with no card, or a foul with a yellow or possibly red card.

Except the VAR won't review two yellow cards.

I posted this in the weekend match thread:

VAR will have set criteria they have a remit to look at. So far it is just these four:

Red Card
Mis-identification of player for a card.
Penalties
Goals

Final decision is up to the Ref.

Broad Spectrum · « **Reply #136 on:** August 21, 2017, 09:22:19 pm »

Quote from: 4pool on August 21, 2017, 09:10:24 pm

Except the VAR won't review two yellow cards.

I posted this in the weekend match thread:

VAR will have set criteria they have a remit to look at. So far it is just these four:

Red Card
Mis-identification of player for a card.
Penalties
Goals

Final decision is up to the Ref.

So far! Had a feeling you'd be the first to respond

Honestly though, that could easily be overcome by including any foul which results in a card (red or yellow). I know the way it's being implemented currently (and the general standard of officials) doesn't fill you with much confidence, but the general principle of Referee initiated VAR will only improve football once implemented properly.

4pool · « **Reply #137 on:** August 21, 2017, 09:30:12 pm »

Quote from: Broad Spectrum on August 21, 2017, 09:22:19 pm

So far! Had a feeling you'd be the first to respond

Honestly though, that could easily be overcome by including any foul which results in a card (red or yellow). I know the way it's being implemented currently (and the general standard of officials) doesn't fill you with much confidence, but the general principle of Referee initiated VAR will only improve football once implemented properly.

Final decision is up to the Ref....there's your answer.

The VAR can suggest, oooh looks like he didn't touch him. Ref, I saw contact so the call stands. End of discussion.

Broad Spectrum · « **Reply #138 on:** August 21, 2017, 09:51:18 pm »

Quote from: 4pool on August 21, 2017, 09:30:12 pm

Final decision is up to the Ref....there's your answer.

The VAR can suggest, oooh looks like he didn't touch him. Ref, I saw contact so the call stands. End of discussion.

He's already seen the contact though. The VAR allows him to determine whether it's a shoulder to the chest (in this instance no card), or whether it's an elbow to the face/head (yellow/red card). I think your issue with VAR is based on your frustration of officials and the current rule book, which to be honest I agree with you on. Too much is left to the interpretation of the official(s) on the day.

4pool · « **Reply #139 on:** August 21, 2017, 10:19:20 pm »

Quote from: Broad Spectrum on August 21, 2017, 09:51:18 pm

He's already seen the contact though. The VAR allows him to determine whether it's a shoulder to the chest (in this instance no card), or whether it's an elbow to the face/head (yellow/red card). I think your issue with VAR is based on your frustration of officials and the current rule book, which to be honest I agree with you on. Too much is left to the interpretation of the official(s) on the day.

The procedure is for the VAR to suggest something, on the four things he is there to verify, and talk to the Ref through the head set. Of course the Ref can talk back.

The VAR could suggest look at it again. Maybe he wont. If he does the Ref can go to the sidelines to look. Still doesn't mean the Ref changes his call or that of an Assistant.

I think this is where those who expect a lot of calls to be over turned fail to see that, imho, unless it is a blatant situation the Ref will rule with the live action call.

Like I keep preaching.. all the Refs, Assistants, Retired Ref's ( Soon to be VAR's), all train and work together. They aren't going to throw each other under the bus unless it is obvious.

Sudden Death Draft Loser · « **Reply #140 on:** December 10, 2017, 04:09:24 pm »

Yes

Now

LanceLink!!!!! · « **Reply #141 on:** December 10, 2017, 04:56:59 pm »

Quote from: Sudden Death Draft Loser on December 10, 2017, 04:09:24 pm

Yes

Now

Trouble is, half of the watching population would say that's a penalty, and the other half would say it's not. The VAR couldn't be 100% either way so would probably go with the original decision by the referee.

In my opinion, VAR won't improve the game at all, it will just frustrate everyone even more.

swoopy · « **Reply #142 on:** December 10, 2017, 05:24:06 pm »

Do you think the VAR would've overturned the pen decision though? I don't

LanceLink!!!!! · « **Reply #143 on:** December 10, 2017, 05:29:29 pm »

Quote from: swoopy on December 10, 2017, 05:24:06 pm

Do you think the VAR would've overturned the pen decision though? I don't

No chance that would get overturned.

4pool · « **Reply #144 on:** December 10, 2017, 05:30:35 pm »

VAR would have never changed the pen decision today.

Fwiw I watched a bit of the Leipzig match yesterday where they have VAR. There was a non pen decision by the ref. A minute later then the play stopped, VAR reviewed, agreed with the Ref. Every commentator said it was a pen, did catch the player..yet the VAR sided with the Ref. The Leipzig match one was a much clearer pen decision, for me, than todays one with Lovren.

classycarra · « **Reply #145 on:** December 10, 2017, 05:49:41 pm »

Today's penalty was wrong. VAR would not have overturned it.

Causing so much upheaval to the sport for the sake of incorrect and not useful technology, plus some nice monetised advertising pauses during the match, would be close to the death-knell for this sport.

Red Being · « **Reply #146 on:** December 10, 2017, 08:52:56 pm »

after all that is happening due to shit refereeing, can't believe there are people who still think this is not a good idea?okay, maybe it won't just make every decision perfect or may even frustrate at first, but in time it WILL improve and improve the quality of decisions as well.There is no doubt about it.Should have been introduced long ago.Refs are bound to make mistakes,no matter how well trained and experienced, and the way the game is now, some decisions will have very far reaching consequences. So to try to minimize the errors is the best course of action. And this is a step towards that and it'll improve in time and the initial hiccups will be overcome. You've got to be too myopic to not see it.

WisconsinRed · « **Reply #147 on:** December 10, 2017, 09:09:11 pm »

Nay. It's not what's needed

Golyo · « **Reply #148 on:** December 10, 2017, 09:19:00 pm »

It's funny opponents of the idea of using VAR do not take into account the effect it would have on referees. How on Earth do you know he would have awarded the penalty today if he knows that it will be reviewed anyway?

Caston · « **Reply #149 on:** December 10, 2017, 09:20:22 pm »

It won’t help with every situation, but surely for things like offsides and other things it’ll be good. Don’t see any harm with atleast trialing it in England.

LanceLink!!!!! · « **Reply #150 on:** December 10, 2017, 09:31:53 pm »

Quote from: Golyo on December 10, 2017, 09:19:00 pm

It's funny opponents of the idea of using VAR do not take into account the effect it would have on referees. How on Earth do you know he would have awarded the penalty today if he knows that it will be reviewed anyway?

The referees will eventually be scared of making decisions and the VAR will be calling all the shots, the interruptions to the game will be insufferable. Football is a beautiful sport, the best on the planet to watch. What sets it aside from the rest is the speed, the flow and the crowd involvement. Take that out of the game and it will be ruined in my opinion.

dimwit · « **Reply #151 on:** December 10, 2017, 09:59:00 pm »

There shouldn't be a need for VAR, but as long as humans do the reffing, there'll be that room for error.

It'll happen for and against. It allways has, and allways will.

But on the issue of diving/play acting, the PFA should follow the lead of NHLPA and form a panel to review every game that's played, and fine every player found guilty of diving.

But on contrast on the fines they get on nhl, it should be one weeks wage for first offence, two for the second, four for third, eight for fourth, and so on..

If the club of the player guilty for the offence chooses to pay the fine on behalf of the player, it should be tenfold.

Any bit of the money gathered via this penalty system should go straight towards facilities and equipment of non league youth football.

This wouldn't correct the issue of point losses regarding the league, but atleast those tits diving would pay for it from their own pockets, or Abramovich and sheik Mansour would pay millions to enable kids across the country to play football..

Red Being · « **Reply #152 on:** December 11, 2017, 05:12:08 pm »

Quote from: LanceLink on December 10, 2017, 09:31:53 pm

The referees will eventually be scared of making decisions and the VAR will be calling all the shots, the interruptions to the game will be insufferable. Football is a beautiful sport, the best on the planet to watch. What sets it aside from the rest is the speed, the flow and the crowd involvement. Take that out of the game and it will be ruined in my opinion.

In time, it will actually help to reduce the 'interruptions'. If a proper system for the appeals is in place, players will appeal only if they are sure of their claim. And the technical side will always improve, eventually minimizing the time needed for 'reviewing' a decision to a good degree so that the interruption will be negligible.Referees will be more confident in their decision making, and not be influenced by fear of getting flak for a poor decision.

Sudden Death Draft Loser · « **Reply #153 on:** December 11, 2017, 05:20:54 pm »

Quote from: Classycara on December 10, 2017, 05:49:41 pm

Today's penalty was wrong. VAR would not have overturned it.

Several of this opinion.

Why not?

Clearly I don't understand VAR

4pool · « **Reply #154 on:** December 11, 2017, 05:50:44 pm »

Quote from: Sudden Death Draft Loser on December 11, 2017, 05:20:54 pm

Several of this opinion.

Why not?

Clearly I don't understand VAR

The VAR is there to review the referees decision. Not to decide what he/she would call on the incident. The VAR confers with the Ref, then the Ref decides for himself if he was wrong.

I think this is the main misconception about VAR.

Which is why in Leagues where it is being trialed like Germany and USA in the MLS.....loads of calls are not over turned.

Quote from another forum i'm on:

VAR never overturns, that's up to the ref. I've watched live football with VAR since in was introduced in MLS, around July/August.

I'm with you on this particular call though, I don't think VAR would suggest it should be overturned. While I don't think it was a pen there's a certain angle that makes it look like it was Lovren's contact that made the shithouse go down like a sack of spuds, it also happened to be pretty much the ref's angle too. I don't think there's a basis to overrule the original decision.

Only if there is a blatant miss by the Ref will the VAR suggest to the Ref, this one is clear.

Broad Spectrum · « **Reply #155 on:** December 11, 2017, 06:57:43 pm »

Seen a good decision the other night in the Juve vs Inter match, Dybala went down in the box, ref correctly waved it away and the match carried on. No need to use VAR even though it was there.

Think the debate just needs to be centered around how it should be implemented at this stage because it’s obviously being introduced at some point.

rocco · « **Reply #156 on:** December 11, 2017, 07:15:50 pm »

Yes

If it can improve decisions

rob1966 · « **Reply #157 on:** December 11, 2017, 07:33:13 pm »

Quote from: 4pool on December 11, 2017, 05:50:44 pm

The VAR is there to review the referees decision. Not to decide what he/she would call on the incident. The VAR confers with the Ref, then the Ref decides for himself if he was wrong.

I think this is the main misconception about VAR.

Which is why in Leagues where it is being trialed like Germany and USA in the MLS.....loads of calls are not over turned.

Quote from another forum i'm on:

VAR never overturns, that's up to the ref. I've watched live football with VAR since in was introduced in MLS, around July/August.

I'm with you on this particular call though, I don't think VAR would suggest it should be overturned. While I don't think it was a pen there's a certain angle that makes it look like it was Lovren's contact that made the shithouse go down like a sack of spuds, it also happened to be pretty much the ref's angle too. I don't think there's a basis to overrule the original decision.

Only if there is a blatant miss by the Ref will the VAR suggest to the Ref, this one is clear.

That's the difference between the VAR and the video ref in Rugby League. In League, the video ref is only used at the refs request, but then it is the video refs decision that is applied. I watched a lot of League in the 80's up to the mid 00's and I noticed some refs started going to the video rather than make their own decisons

PhaseOfPlay · « **Reply #158 on:** December 11, 2017, 08:24:52 pm »

The problem with VAR, apart from the logistical ones that may exist, is that it creates two codes for the professional game - one code for leagues that can afford VAR, and one code for leagues that can't. Because the use of VAR has to be written into the laws of the game somewhere, to allow for the stoppages needed. So if you play in the Premier League or Champions League, VAR will become commonplace, but if you're in the Kazakhstan Premier league, and you happen to make the group stages of the CL, you now have a slightly different set of rules to adapt to, especially if they begin to add manager appeals per game. That effectively creates "timeouts", and changes the nature of the game. So it would have to be carefully managed to ensure that the 11v11 game still remains largely the same for all levels. If not, then we will eventually have two codes of football, which might be a good or bad thing, depending on how far it goes.

kennedy81 · « **Reply #159 on:** December 11, 2017, 09:16:38 pm »

Quote from: Good King WencesDaniel Looked Out On The Cabbaggio Garden on August 15, 2017, 09:55:01 pm

What do people make of ref cam?? I like it personally,

That's cool, but the ref shouldn't have to listen to that shite music for the whole game. At least give him a nice bit of Chopin or something.