Author Topic: The War In Afghanistan  (Read 87184 times)

Offline west_london_red

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #200 on: August 14, 2021, 09:10:48 pm »
A northern stronghold against the Taliban has now also fallen, was controlled by one of the leaders of the Northern Alliance who were fighting the Taliban before the Americans invaded. Pre-2001 it was about the only part of the country the Taliban didn’t control and now even that’s fallen.
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Offline Shankly998

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #201 on: August 14, 2021, 10:16:30 pm »
While terrible for the Afghan people the Taliban taking over Afghanistan isn't really much of a threat to the rest of the world thank god. What a waste of lives, money and effort over the past 20 years only to watch everything fall apart within a few months goes to show just like in South Vietnam if you keep unpopular people in power in a country without democratic traditions as soon as you leave it'll all fall apart.

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #202 on: August 14, 2021, 10:22:02 pm »
While terrible for the Afghan people the Taliban taking over Afghanistan isn't really much of a threat to the rest of the world thank god. What a waste of lives, money and effort over the past 20 years only to watch everything fall apart within a few months goes to show just like in South Vietnam if you keep unpopular people in power in a country without democratic traditions as soon as you leave it'll all fall apart.
In reality, it didn’t take a huge commitment to maintain relative peace and calm in Afghanistan.

Leaving has completely tipped the balance.

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #203 on: August 14, 2021, 11:02:07 pm »
How long does anyone think before Putin decides to step back into Afghanistan and have a repeat of the 80's? Is it a possibility?

Offline TSC

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #204 on: August 14, 2021, 11:09:04 pm »
I don’t know to be honest, but we shouldn’t get too hung up on the details of whether it men or women, public nor private, it’s still absolutely barbaric.

I’d assume if anyone crosses them they’ll not discriminate over gender, but I recall there were quite a few public executions of women in particular.  Horrific.

US now deploying additional troops.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/14/politics/biden-afghanistan-troops/index.html


Offline Sangria

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #205 on: August 14, 2021, 11:09:29 pm »
How long does anyone think before Putin decides to step back into Afghanistan and have a repeat of the 80's? Is it a possibility?

Why would Russia want to be directly involved?
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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #206 on: August 14, 2021, 11:09:40 pm »
How long does anyone think before Putin decides to step back into Afghanistan and have a repeat of the 80's? Is it a possibility?
Doubt it, it was easier in the 80s as the Soviet’s actually shared a border with Afghanistan. Afghanistan was a buffer state between the Russian empire and the British Raj in the century before that.
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Offline Shankly998

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #207 on: August 15, 2021, 01:25:43 am »
In reality, it didn’t take a huge commitment to maintain relative peace and calm in Afghanistan.

Leaving has completely tipped the balance.

20 years of effort, thousands of deaths and hundreds of billions of dollars spent was a huge commitment. You can't succeed in nation building when you're propping up a fatally corrupt government hence why the whole thing is collapsing so quickly.

Offline Sangria

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #208 on: August 15, 2021, 02:13:38 am »
20 years of effort, thousands of deaths and hundreds of billions of dollars spent was a huge commitment. You can't succeed in nation building when you're propping up a fatally corrupt government hence why the whole thing is collapsing so quickly.

You can't succeed in nation building when there's a competing idea of nation concurrent with your efforts. Nation building post-war succeeded in Germany and Japan because their idea of nation was thoroughly smashed, thus allowing the occupiers to inculcate the new nation that they were building without having to build on contrary foundations.

That's why I asked people just what they were willing to stomach for the successful completion that they demand. And no one was willing to answer, for it's easier to demand than to reflect and assess.
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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #209 on: August 15, 2021, 07:24:54 am »
Bloomberg
Politics & Policy
You Thought This Was Just About Afghanistan? Think Again
As the Taliban take over the country, other jihadist groups are already carrying out attacks in the region. Chinese interests are the first in line.   
By Ruth Pollard
August 13, 2021, 8:00 PM EDT


The spillover has already begun, before the Taliban have even reached Kabul. City after city is falling as the Islamist insurgents draw closer to the capital. And it will only get worse from here as the conflict expands beyond Afghanistan’s borders.

Jihadist groups based in the country, some with transnational agendas like al-Qaeda, now have a template for defeating governments backed by major powers and have been emboldened by the Taliban’s lightning-fast advance. This is happening as the jihadi ecosystem is experiencing the lowest counter-terrorism pressure in the last two decades, effectively getting free rein. Asfandyar Mir, South Asia security analyst for the U.S. Institute for Peace, says it’s a dangerous combination when threats go up at the same time efforts to combat them go down.

“Central Asian jihadists have been flexing their muscle, anti-China jihadists have attacked Chinese personal in Pakistan, more regional violence is extremely plausible — the threat is ongoing, and we are just talking about an escalation from this point onwards,” Mir said. The collapse of the Afghan republic following the U.S. departure would have regional significance like the post-9/11 invasion, or the withdrawal of Soviet troops and fall of the communist regime they’d backed. “This is a seismic shift that will change politics in this part of the world in ways” hard to foresee.

Expect the immediate danger to be regional — in South and Central Asia — as geography and capability limit the initial damage. Chinese interests in Pakistan have already taken a hit. In April, a car bomb exploded at a luxury hotel hosting Beijing’s ambassador in Quetta, not far from Taliban strongholds in southern Afghanistan. The attack was claimed by the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan, or the Pakistani Taliban, a loosely organized terrorist group with ties to al-Qaeda, based along the vast Afghan-Pakistan border.

Last month, a bomb blast on a bus traveling to a dam and hydro-electric project in Dasu, near the Pakistan border with China, killed 12 people, including nine Chinese citizens. No one has claimed responsibility, but Beijing was so concerned that it hosted Taliban representatives for a meeting with Foreign Minister Wang Yi. At stake is $60 billion in projects in the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, a crucial part of President Xi Jinping’s wider Belt and Road Initiative, along with significant Chinese mining interests inside Afghanistan.

While this wasn’t the Taliban’s first visit to China, the seniority of the Chinese representatives was unprecedented, as was the very public message that Beijing recognizes the group as a legitimate political force, Yun Sun, the Stimson Center think tank’s China program director, noted this week in an essay on the national security platform, War on the Rocks.  After posing for photographs with the group’s co-founder and deputy leader Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, Wang described the Taliban as “a crucial military and political force in Afghanistan that is expected to play an important role in the peace, reconciliation, and reconstruction process of the country.”

What Beijing wants in return is for the Taliban to live up to a commitment to sever all ties with terrorist organizations, including the TTP and the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (an outfit Beijing blames for unrest in its Xinjiang region that Washington removed from its list of terror groups in October after finding there was no credible evidence it continues to exist.) Any further attacks on Chinese nationals working in South Asia, whether claimed by the Taliban or others operating with its blessing, will no doubt impact future ties, though it’s unclear what China would do in retaliation.

With no major political or diplomatic push to blunt the Taliban’s advance or rein in the groups operating in its shadow, including al-Qaeda — much diminished 20 years after the U.S. invaded Afghanistan to destroy them and their Taliban hosts — it’s a matter of when, not if, there’s an upsurge in terror attacks. The danger is particularly acute for the six countries bordering Afghanistan. Beyond China, they include Iran and Pakistan — as well as nearby India, which will be closely watching its only Muslim-majority province of Kashmir, the object in two of its wars with Pakistan, for resurgent violence. Russia will be concerned about the impact on Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan and any terrorist blowback onto its territory.

There’s the possibility that the major powers — the U.S., Russia and China — might step in and convince their allies and friends to end hostilities. But analysts think that’s unlikely. The situation has festered since the U.S. and the Taliban reached their agreement in February last year, and will continue to do so.

Extended international inertia is more probable. Look at Syria. After a decade of war and some significant U.S. investment in money, military involvement and political capital, Bashar al-Assad is still president. The country has the world’s largest population of internally displaced people (6.7 million), while 6.6 million refugees subsist mostly in Lebanon, Turkey and Jordan. The threat posed by terror groups operating in and around Syria, as well as the use and proliferation of chemical weapons, remains a real concern. So does the conflict’s tendency to be a flashpoint for external players like Russia, Turkey, Israel and Iran.

For Afghanistan, the next worry would be that foreign fighters again start pouring in from around the world. Insurgents from other nations are there now, but mostly from neighboring countries. Once they come from further afield, it increases the probability of attacks spreading much more widely.

Husain Haqqani, Pakistan’s former ambassador to Washington and now director for South and Central Asia at the Hudson Institute, says the Taliban remain connected to al-Qaeda and other international terror groups by ideology, shared finances and training, and even marriage. “Given that jihadists do not think much of international borders and consider the current global order un-Islamic, it is only a matter of time before they set their sights on Europe and the U.S. again,” he said.

It’s hard to see how this ends well. Unless major powers do more than hold their collective breath and hope for the best, the fallout from their indifference will be felt well beyond Afghanistan’s borders.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-08-14/the-taliban-is-already-inspiring-terror-beyond-afghanistan-it-will-only-spread
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Offline A-Bomb

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #210 on: August 15, 2021, 08:32:17 am »
I think it was the right choice to leave Afghanistan.

I disagree fundamentally, following our decision to intervene in Afghanistan - by making that choice, we have a responsibility to ensure the country is left in a better position than we arrived.

That is the responsibility you assume when you make the decision to go to war in my opinion.

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #211 on: August 15, 2021, 08:35:30 am »
I disagree fundamentally, following our decision to intervene in Afghanistan - by making that choice, we have a responsibility to ensure the country is left in a better position than we arrived.

That is the responsibility you assume when you make the decision to go to war in my opinion.

It was left in a better position than when we arrived. I'm not sure how we could ever have left, so unless we occupied it in perpetuity and treat it like a Western colony this was always going to happen.

Offline west_london_red

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #212 on: August 15, 2021, 08:36:43 am »
I disagree fundamentally, following our decision to intervene in Afghanistan - by making that choice, we have a responsibility to ensure the country is left in a better position than we arrived.

That is the responsibility you assume when you make the decision to go to war in my opinion.

NATO could have stayed in Afghanistan for a 100 years and exactly the same could have well happened after they left.
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Offline A-Bomb

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #213 on: August 15, 2021, 08:40:32 am »
It was left in a better position than when we arrived. I'm not sure how we could ever have left, so unless we occupied it in perpetuity and treat it like a Western colony this was always going to happen.

Oh I absolutely agree, it is completely inconceivable that we'd remain as a permanent fixture - unless we were going back to our Empire days.

My point is re-iterated by your comment, if we decide to intervene in another countries affairs - then we have to assume the responsibility to stay the course. So perhaps we need to be more conscious in the future of making these decisions if we cannot commit to seeing the outcome through.

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #214 on: August 15, 2021, 08:43:18 am »
Oh I absolutely agree, it is completely inconceivable that we'd remain as a permanent fixture - unless we were going back to our Empire days.

My point is re-iterated by your comment, if we decide to intervene in another countries affairs - then we have to assume the responsibility to stay the course. So perhaps we need to be more conscious in the future of making these decisions if we cannot commit to seeing the outcome through.

What do you mean by stay the course though? We were there well over a decade trying to train Afghan forces to be able to withstand it themselves and I defy anybody to say it wasn't safer at the point of withdrawal and the point of entry. I'd be interested to know what you would've done differently or what outcome you think we didn't see through.

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #215 on: August 15, 2021, 08:54:13 am »
Trump (unsurprisingly) attempts to jump on the bandwagon.  With no sense of irony whatsoever he claims the withdrawal under him would have been ‘conditions based’.

No mention of what (if any) terms were agreed when he made the decision to exit.

https://metro.co.uk/2021/08/12/trump-says-afghanistan-withdrawal-would-be-more-successful-under-him-15083633/

Offline Sangria

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #216 on: August 15, 2021, 08:55:40 am »
Oh I absolutely agree, it is completely inconceivable that we'd remain as a permanent fixture - unless we were going back to our Empire days.

My point is re-iterated by your comment, if we decide to intervene in another countries affairs - then we have to assume the responsibility to stay the course. So perhaps we need to be more conscious in the future of making these decisions if we cannot commit to seeing the outcome through.

What are you prepared to do to make it a success?
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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #217 on: August 15, 2021, 09:01:52 am »
What do you mean by stay the course though? We were there well over a decade trying to train Afghan forces to be able to withstand it themselves and I defy anybody to say it wasn't safer at the point of withdrawal and the point of entry. I'd be interested to know what you would've done differently or what outcome you think we didn't see through.

I don't believe we had a plan at point of invasion, further than assuming control. I think that's universally accepted.

If we are going to impose ourselves on another country (which is what we did) I don't think it's unfair to say, we should have a thought out vision of how we manage our presence there.

It's evident that we have not (along with the Americans) given the Afghanistan government the tools necessary to handle the Taliban. I recognise we have educated their police and army, attempted to instill a democratic society - but it is clear the country was not ready to remove the 'stabilisers'

If we invade a country, as we did in Afghanistan - good intentions aside. We have a duty to the Afghanistan people to ensure they are protected, until such a point in time that the country itself is able to manage itself.

If we cannot make that commitment, then we should never have gone there in the first place.

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #218 on: August 15, 2021, 09:04:06 am »

Offline Sangria

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #219 on: August 15, 2021, 09:05:12 am »
I don't believe we had a plan at point of invasion, further than assuming control. I think that's universally accepted.

If we are going to impose ourselves on another country (which is what we did) I don't think it's unfair to say, we should have a thought out vision of how we manage our presence there.

It's evident that we have not (along with the Americans) given the Afghanistan government the tools necessary to handle the Taliban. I recognise we have educated their police and army, attempted to instill a democratic society - but it is clear the country was not ready to remove the 'stabilisers'

If we invade a country, as we did in Afghanistan - good intentions aside. We have a duty to the Afghanistan people to ensure they are protected, until such a point in time that the country itself is able to manage itself.

If we cannot make that commitment, then we should never have gone there in the first place.

We went in because the Taliban weren't willing to hand over Osama Bin Laden. Remember?
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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #220 on: August 15, 2021, 09:12:09 am »
We went in because the Taliban weren't willing to hand over Osama Bin Laden. Remember?

Oh i remember mate, my point is simple - we have to assume responsibility for our choices, pulling out because it's no longer politically or financially prudent is not good enough for the Afghanistanis....they didn't ask for us to invade their country, and if we wade in on the premise we are a 'knight in shining armour' then we better bloody deliver an outcome that improves their lives.

I'm fairly sure we could have sent a hit squad to have taken OBL out....remind me again how he met his maker? exactly...

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #221 on: August 15, 2021, 09:17:11 am »
Oh i remember mate, my point is simple - we have to assume responsibility for our choices, pulling out because it's no longer politically or financially prudent is not good enough for the Afghanistanis....they didn't ask for us to invade their country, and if we wade in on the premise we are a 'knight in shining armour' then we better bloody deliver an outcome that improves their lives.

I'm fairly sure we could have sent a hit squad to have taken OBL out....remind me again how he met his maker? exactly...

If you want us to stay the course to make it a success, what are you prepared for us to do to make it so? See my other posts on this page.
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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #222 on: August 15, 2021, 09:18:08 am »
Oh i remember mate, my point is simple - we have to assume responsibility for our choices, pulling out because it's no longer politically or financially prudent is not good enough for the Afghanistanis....they didn't ask for us to invade their country, and if we wade in on the premise we are a 'knight in shining armour' then we better bloody deliver an outcome that improves their lives.

I'm fairly sure we could have sent a hit squad to have taken OBL out....remind me again how he met his maker? exactly...

So you are willing to send British soldiers out there to die indefinitely?

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #223 on: August 15, 2021, 09:25:00 am »
US and nato troops (inc UK) now scrambling to evacuate Kabul in case (before) the Taliban start shelling the airport.  (Sky news live reporting).

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #224 on: August 15, 2021, 09:25:40 am »
So you are willing to send British soldiers out there to die indefinitely?

The day we decided to invade Afghanistan, that was the commitment we made - of course I have no desire to want British service men and women to die. There would have been no 'indefinitely' had we have had a plan of how we were going to manage the situation post assuming control of the country.

It's actually quite negligent to our soldiers that we put them in that position to begin with.

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #225 on: August 15, 2021, 09:28:22 am »
The day we decided to invade Afghanistan, that was the commitment we made - of course I have no desire to want British service men and women to die. There would have been no 'indefinitely' had we have had a plan of how we were going to manage the situation post assuming control of the country.

It's actually quite negligent to our soldiers that we put them in that position to begin with.

I'm still unsure of what kind of plan you would've liked to have seen. To me training them to defend themselves is a good plan and the best plan actually, so if that has still failed what more can you do? Yeah, it might've been a hasty entry into war but during it we developed an escape route. That's shown to be totally inadequate as obviously the Taliban were just waiting for us to leave, but what can you do? That could've happened today or in another 30 years.

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #226 on: August 15, 2021, 09:32:20 am »
What are you prepared to do to make it a success?

Well clearly I can't personally have an effect on the success of our intervention. My expectation however, as a British individual - having in my name invaded another country, with families who have lost loved ones as a result - is that it wasn't in vain. With the Taliban looking like they will assume control of the country following both us and the Americans vacating. We've not done a very good job, and frankly im embarrassed.

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #227 on: August 15, 2021, 09:36:16 am »
I'm still unsure of what kind of plan you would've liked to have seen. To me training them to defend themselves is a good plan and the best plan actually, so if that has still failed what more can you do? Yeah, it might've been a hasty entry into war but during it we developed an escape route. That's shown to be totally inadequate as obviously the Taliban were just waiting for us to leave, but what can you do? That could've happened today or in another 30 years.

Gerry, I don't disagree with your observations - my point is simple, if we cannot ensure a plan which improves the lives of the people we are invading - then perhaps we shouldn't have invaded in the first place. Families have lost love ones, we've spent a fortune and we've not improved the situation almost 20 years later.

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #228 on: August 15, 2021, 09:38:55 am »
20 years of effort, thousands of deaths and hundreds of billions of dollars spent was a huge commitment. You can't succeed in nation building when you're propping up a fatally corrupt government hence why the whole thing is collapsing so quickly.
Maintainaing the status quo wasn’t a huge commitment (what ever came before).
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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #229 on: August 15, 2021, 09:39:19 am »
The day we decided to invade Afghanistan, that was the commitment we made - of course I have no desire to want British service men and women to die. There would have been no 'indefinitely' had we have had a plan of how we were going to manage the situation post assuming control of the country.

It's actually quite negligent to our soldiers that we put them in that position to begin with.

So you have no desire to send out our troops to die but you would still do it?

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #230 on: August 15, 2021, 09:43:36 am »
Well clearly I can't personally have an effect on the success of our intervention. My expectation however, as a British individual - having in my name invaded another country, with families who have lost loved ones as a result - is that it wasn't in vain. With the Taliban looking like they will assume control of the country following both us and the Americans vacating. We've not done a very good job, and frankly im embarrassed.

What are you prepared for our country to do to make the enterprise the success that you demand? See my post about post-war Germany and Japan, usually cited as examples of success in nation building.
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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #231 on: August 15, 2021, 09:46:52 am »
So you have no desire to send out our troops to die but you would still do it?

I believe we have a responsibility to the Afghan people, having made the decision to go into their country and turn it upside down through war.

I absolutely don't wish for any deaths, but you can't metaphorically walk into a room, throw a hand grenade - see the mess it leaves and just walk away. What a shit advertisement for being British that would be...

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #232 on: August 15, 2021, 09:49:08 am »
I believe we have a responsibility to the Afghan people, having made the decision to go into their country and turn it upside down through war.

I absolutely don't wish for any deaths, but you can't metaphorically walk into a room, throw a hand grenade - see the mess it leaves and just walk away. What a shit advertisement for being British that would be...

I’m still unsure what you would do. What steps or decisions would you have taken that the British or American government haven’t done? I get your points about invading but I’m unsure what your plan would be if you were PM or President. How would you have made it different?

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #233 on: August 15, 2021, 09:52:12 am »
It's a living, breathing tragedy in front of our eyes.
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Offline A-Bomb

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #234 on: August 15, 2021, 09:52:41 am »
What are you prepared for our country to do to make the enterprise the success that you demand? See my post about post-war Germany and Japan, usually cited as examples of success in nation building.

Im not demanding anything mate....I am simply saying in my opinion i feel having made the decision to interfere with their country we have a responsibility to the Afghan people that we don't just walk away when it's financially or politically convenient.

Offline Bobsackamano

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #235 on: August 15, 2021, 09:53:31 am »
I believe we have a responsibility to the Afghan people, having made the decision to go into their country and turn it upside down through war.

I absolutely don't wish for any deaths, but you can't metaphorically walk into a room, throw a hand grenade - see the mess it leaves and just walk away. What a shit advertisement for being British that would be...

So just to confirm you are advocating we carry on sending British troops to die in Afganistan?

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #236 on: August 15, 2021, 09:56:44 am »
I’m still unsure what you would do. What steps or decisions would you have taken that the British or American government haven’t done? I get your points about invading but I’m unsure what your plan would be if you were PM or President. How would you have made it different?

Well that's a bit unfair, as you're assuming i'd have made the decision to have invaded in the first instance.

What I can say confidently, if I had made the decision to invade another country, I'd make damn sure I'd have worked through in advance what would be considered a bullet proof exit plan. The last thing i'd want on my conscience is family of deceased service men and women knocking on my door asking questions as to what the purpose of what they gave their life for.

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #237 on: August 15, 2021, 10:00:10 am »
So just to confirm you are advocating we carry on sending British troops to die in Afganistan?

Again this is twisting words - I do not want any British troops to die.....but i think i've made my position clear, going to war and invading any country is not a choice that should be made lightly - and if we do make that choice, we have a responsibility to leave that country in a better place than we arrived - otherwise what the fuck was the point in going there in the first place?

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #238 on: August 15, 2021, 10:01:18 am »
Well that's a bit unfair, as you're assuming i'd have made the decision to have invaded in the first instance.

What I can say confidently, if I had made the decision to invade another country, I'd make damn sure I'd have worked through in advance what would be considered a bullet proof exit plan. The last thing i'd want on my conscience is family of deceased service men and women knocking on my door asking questions as to what the purpose of what they gave their life for.

"We tried our best. It didn't work."

Or at least that's what one non-deceased soldier who served in Afghanistan says about the current situation.

I'd like to ask the question again though, as you keep demanding success, but you never say what you're prepared for us to do to achieve that success. What are you prepared for our country to do to get the success that you're demanding? With reference to my above post about Germany and Japan.
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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #239 on: August 15, 2021, 10:01:29 am »
Maintainaing the status quo wasn’t a huge commitment (what ever came before).

So true as the US has lost very few troops there in the past year or two while maintaining some stability and could have easily continued as they love spending money via military bills. Now there is absolute chaos and millions of lives / livelihoods are at risk. Plus we all know in the long term there is such a vacuum created there that every terrorist within thousand miles of the country will relocate within its borders, having a safer haven to work from leading to the Americans and Brits having to go back. Wash, rinse and repeat the same mistakes no matter what President is in charge. 
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