Topic: Curtis Jones

[royhendo]

It's really interesting this one. It felt like he peaked in the Autumn in a way with that Porto game, then got his eye injury, which set him back a little, then put in a ridiculous performance 2nd leg at The Emirates in the yellow strip, and then kind of faded again with competition for starting places and pressure for results... but this is a truly elite footballer who's 21 years old and is already 6 foot 1 and strong as an ox.

He's playing all across the pitch, and while some in the list from Fbref are playing in safer areas, he's posting top line retention numbers as well as massive penetration numbers, both through passing and carrying. (The stats to follow are from last summer - the Athletic's 'Expected Threat' metrics. The article was here but it's just a variant of other providers' metrics in the same space isn't it? https://theathletic.com/2751525/2021/08/06/introducing-expected-threat-or-xt-the-new-metric-on-the-block/ - the idea is counting the impact of in possession actions that add to the chances of your side scoring, in various subcategories. It doesn't count (but we know the club's model does) how off the ball work contributes to that... both in running while a team mate's in possession, and how they win the ball back... but that's a different question.

The profile is of a player who is top top class at progressing the build up (medium threat actions they tag them in the Athletic model), and cumulatively puts in a massive creative shift, up there with any other player in the league already (this was aged 20).

Overall contribution wise, the ranking for the league (in a year where we weren't really that great) goes: De Bruyne, Odegaard, Fernandes, Rodri, Thiago, Curtis.

Passes and carries in open play (2020/21)




Passing



Dribbling



'Medium threat' actions - high value linking of play in the build up



'High threat' actions - attacking play



Biggest overall contribution

[Dave McCoy]

I think any reasonable fan would agree he has the tools to be one of the best attacking mids in the league. It's all the off-ball "midfield" stuff that is the question mark. There were times at the end of the season where Milner was coming off the bench before him and that's probably because Milner can be trusted to just take out a man if there is danger whereas Jones seemingly can't be trusted for that. If he doesn't grow that part of his game then I think his minutes will still be limited unless we start playing him in the attacking 3 as a rotation player.

[royhendo]

Think that's it in a nutshell senor McCoy.

[RyanBabel19]

I think any reasonable fan would agree he has the tools to be one of the best attacking mids in the league. It's all the off-ball "midfield" stuff that is the question mark. There were times at the end of the season where Milner was coming off the bench before him and that's probably because Milner can be trusted to just take out a man if there is danger whereas Jones seemingly can't be trusted for that. If he doesn't grow that part of his game then I think his minutes will still be limited unless we start playing him in the attacking 3 as a rotation player.

Very few of our players seem to do this apart from Milner though. Go through our other CMs and think about the same scenario (opposition player running towards our goal) and how many take a man out to diffuse the situation. Fabinho does, outside of those 2 most of our players will chase and press but not commit the cynical foul. That isn't a Curtis Jones flaw, it's something our side dont do much of as a whole

[Black Bull Nova]

Well I suppose there's the Curtis Jones fella. But he came free and therefore lacks the charisma of someone - anyone - we might blow 50 million on. Plus Jones is such a commonplace name, don't you find?

Well, if only he was Brazilian and was called Curtisimo Jonesiana and had a youtube clip collection of him doing step overs, there'd be a posse on here clamouring for his £50m signing.

[JasonF]

Well, if only he was Brazilian and was called Curtisimo Jonesiana and had a youtube clip collection of him doing step overs, there'd be a posse on here clamouring for his £50m signing.

https://streamable.com/r1c75l

[dai_bonehead]

https://streamable.com/r1c75l

doing stuff that most players can’t. that’s why he’s got the potential to be world class.

[terry_macss_perm]

Well, if only he was Brazilian and was called Curtisimo Jonesiana and had a youtube clip collection of him doing step overs, there'd be a posse on here clamouring for his £50m signing.

Nobody would be arguing for a £50m fee on the strength of last year’s highlights though. One PL goal and one assist (a nice little pass v Man C but it’s fair to say Mo still had a bit to do!)

He’s got bags of potential and still young but we’re kidding ourselves if we pretend his output was that of a £50m footballer last season.

[Black Bull Nova]

Nobody would be arguing for a £50m fee on the strength of last year’s highlights though. One PL goal and one assist (a nice little pass v Man C but it’s fair to say Mo still had a bit to do!)

He’s got bags of potential and still young but we’re kidding ourselves if we pretend his output was that of a £50m footballer last season.

I did not say he was, it's just that most clubs have fans that would rather spend £50m on something exotic than support local development, it often turns out just as good. Curtis is a squad player at the moment, he could go either way at 21, with Jurgen about I feel positive.

[Drinks Sangria]

Curtis has all the tools to be an excellent midfielder that's good enough to be a first choice for Liverpool, which for a local lad to be is incredible, given the competition and quality of our club.

Based on his diminishing minutes last season and the fact that he already has nearly 3 seasons of Klopp-team coaching under his belt, I'd genuinely advocate for a loan in the Premier League to a team that will give him 2,500+ minutes. It's what he needs to develop into the player we know he can be and it's what he may struggle to get next season with ourselves.

Brighton would be my choice but not sure he'd be a guaranteed pick there, so maybe Wolves as the main creator or Brentford if Eriksen leaves.

I think one season as first choice for a reasonable side in the league brings him back to us more fully formed. I absolutely know the club won't share this idea and will be keeping him.

[killer-heels]

It's really interesting this one. It felt like he peaked in the Autumn in a way with that Porto game, then got his eye injury, which set him back a little, then put in a ridiculous performance 2nd leg at The Emirates in the yellow strip, and then kind of faded again with competition for starting places and pressure for results... but this is a truly elite footballer who's 21 years old and is already 6 foot 1 and strong as an ox.

He's playing all across the pitch, and while some in the list from Fbref are playing in safer areas, he's posting top line retention numbers as well as massive penetration numbers, both through passing and carrying. (The stats to follow are from last summer - the Athletic's 'Expected Threat' metrics. The article was here but it's just a variant of other providers' metrics in the same space isn't it? https://theathletic.com/2751525/2021/08/06/introducing-expected-threat-or-xt-the-new-metric-on-the-block/ - the idea is counting the impact of in possession actions that add to the chances of your side scoring, in various subcategories. It doesn't count (but we know the club's model does) how off the ball work contributes to that... both in running while a team mate's in possession, and how they win the ball back... but that's a different question.

The profile is of a player who is top top class at progressing the build up (medium threat actions they tag them in the Athletic model), and cumulatively puts in a massive creative shift, up there with any other player in the league already (this was aged 20).

Overall contribution wise, the ranking for the league (in a year where we weren't really that great) goes: De Bruyne, Odegaard, Fernandes, Rodri, Thiago, Curtis.

Passes and carries in open play (2020/21)




Passing



Dribbling



'Medium threat' actions - high value linking of play in the build up



'High threat' actions - attacking play



Biggest overall contribution

We should sign Grealish.

[SamLad]

all this talk about loaning out Jones ..... Christ on a  bike.

the lad is a very very good midfielder, but ppl want him to eff off to another club for a year (which as we all know often becomes forever) while moaning that we're not signing midfielder X who has poorer stats but well, y'know, he has a sexy-sounding name or something?

fukking hell some ppl are stupid.

[Dave McCoy]

Very few of our players seem to do this apart from Milner though. Go through our other CMs and think about the same scenario (opposition player running towards our goal) and how many take a man out to diffuse the situation. Fabinho does, outside of those 2 most of our players will chase and press but not commit the cynical foul. That isn't a Curtis Jones flaw, it's something our side dont do much of as a whole

Thiago doesn't commit cynical fouls? Hendo can though as he ages it's becoming less and less prevalent but to say he won't put in a leg is obviously wrong. Keita also wins the ball. So yes it is a flaw insomuch as you expect your midfielder to win the ball or foul when needed.

[RyanBabel19]

Thiago doesn't commit cynical fouls? Hendo can though as he ages it's becoming less and less prevalent but to say he won't put in a leg is obviously wrong. Keita also wins the ball. So yes it is a flaw insomuch as you expect your midfielder to win the ball or foul when needed.

You mentioned taking out a man, that isn’t winning the ball so I never mentioned Keita.

Jones actually presses and wins the ball pretty well, talking about taking out an opposition player is a different thing altogether IMO and again, very few of our players do it, as a team we dont do it much (and its been mentioned a lot on here) so it seemed quite a harsh criticism to single out Jones for that as if its a vital trait our midfield possess, i’d understand if he was a City player as they all do it a lot. We don’t win the fair play so much for no reason, we’re not a very snide team in the cynical fouls way

[Songs to Sing]

https://streamable.com/r1c75l

Haha good post well made whoever spotted that and put that togerher

[Funky_Gibbons]

Considering Klopp has criticised teams who make ‘tactical fouls’ and said he doesn’t encourage his players to do it, it seems odd that someone would criticise Jones for not doing it.

Milner is at an age now where he’s not so much making tactical fouls but is just half a second too slow.

[SamLad]

Considering Klopp has criticised teams who make ‘tactical fouls’ and said he doesn’t encourage his players to do it, it seems odd that someone would criticise Jones for not doing it.

Milner is at an age now where he’s not so much making tactical fouls but is just half a second too slow.

nah, he plays the "sorry ref, I'm getting too old for this shit" card .... and smirks as he runs off.

[Dave McCoy]

You mentioned taking out a man, that isn’t winning the ball so I never mentioned Keita.

Jones actually presses and wins the ball pretty well, talking about taking out an opposition player is a different thing altogether IMO and again, very few of our players do it, as a team we dont do it much (and its been mentioned a lot on here) so it seemed quite a harsh criticism to single out Jones for that as if its a vital trait our midfield possess, i’d understand if he was a City player as they all do it a lot. We don’t win the fair play so much for no reason, we’re not a very snide team in the cynical fouls way

No, he doesn't win the ball and that's the whole concern. If he did win the ball then he probably would have played more which is what Roy and I were agreeing on.

[rushyman]

Ah fair enough. Sorry mate.

 

[RedG13]

No, he doesn't win the ball and that's the whole concern. If he did win the ball then he probably would have played more which is what Roy and I were agreeing on.

He wins 54% of his ground duels and one of the best at pressing on the team. Henderson won 46% of his ground duels last season. Fabinho at 45%. Thiago 52% and Naby at 56%.
Also this from AI under pressure https://twitter.com/AIUnderPressure/status/1537373288145600512
Explain how he doesnt do well enough defensively?

He didnt play as much last season because of the eye injury/covid took him out for a big part of the season.

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

https://streamable.com/r1c75l

Massive talent is there for sure. I hope his mentality is as good as his talent.

[Knight]

There seems to be a mismatch between how good Jones is when he plays, and how much he actually gets on the pitch for us. It's been the same with Naby in the past. Why is that?

[RyanBabel19]

No, he doesn't win the ball and that's the whole concern. If he did win the ball then he probably would have played more which is what Roy and I were agreeing on.

Jurgen Klopp affords minutes in MIDFIELD to a player who doesn’t win the ball in one of the best squads he’s had in his entire managerial career. From the eye test what you’re saying is not true at all but i’m more than happy to be proven wrong with actual statistics supporting your claims he DOES NOT win the ball. He has his flaws and could be more decisive in an attacking sense but defensively he presses well and wins the ball well too. He’s a young player learning in an incredibly well drilled side, much more experienced players would struggle in our side especially in a season interrupted by multiple injuries but he’s doing well and will continue to improve

[royhendo]

He's a young player who's superb. Ahead of him are a few players who are about as good a fit as you can get on and off the ball, and positionally/tactically too, not just in terms of possession recoveries and related numbers. Jones has shown he can do it several times - that Porto game is the big standout for me - he's just not the starter and the reason why is because the three starters manage our balance via their positioning. It's a question of trust and experience - Jones will gain that I think, and when he does it'll be hard to displace him because he seems pretty resilient physically.

Why does there have to be a drama about it, can I ask?

(The numbers are indicators - they're not the whole story and they're not the whole context.)

[royhendo]

https://streamable.com/r1c75l

That's tremendous!

[Eeyore]

He's a young player who's superb. Ahead of him are a few players who are about as good a fit as you can get on and off the ball, and positionally/tactically too, not just in terms of possession recoveries and related numbers. Jones has shown he can do it several times - that Porto game is the big standout for me - he's just not the starter and the reason why is because the three starters manage our balance via their positioning. It's a question of trust and experience - Jones will gain that I think, and when he does it'll be hard to displace him because he seems pretty resilient physically.

Why does there have to be a drama about it, can I ask?

(The numbers are indicators - they're not the whole story and they're not the whole context.)

That is it for me Roy.

The only other thing I would add, is that in terms of the required discipline and tactical awareness. Then playing at either centre back or in the midfield three for a Klopp side is about as difficult as it gets.

We play the game on a razors edge, with the two centre backs and three mids needing to make a ridiculous number of split second decisions. For us to function at a level at which we can compete with City. Then that decision-making needs to be almost flawless. That is the challenge for the likes of Jones.

[Dave McCoy]

He wins 54% of his ground duels and one of the best at pressing on the team. Henderson won 46% of his ground duels last season. Fabinho at 45%. Thiago 52% and Naby at 56%.
Also this from AI under pressure https://twitter.com/AIUnderPressure/status/1537373288145600512
Explain how he doesnt do well enough defensively?

He didnt play as much last season because of the eye injury/covid took him out for a big part of the season.

We can't talk realistically about our own players without sounding overly negative. I had a whole response written but it just comes off as being a jackass. He attempts 1 tackle a game, what is 54% of 0? It's still zero.

Anyway, I hope Curtis becomes the player we all want him to become. Guess we'll see.

[Clint Eastwood]

I think there’s a bit of uncertainty over what kind of midfielder we want him to be. When he broke through he seemed like a 10, but over the last couple of seasons has been more of box-to-box midfielder, like Henderson/Milner/Gini/Keita. Have to say, I prefer him in that role. He has all the tools to be a complete midfielder, and with Carvalho and Elliott we have two very promising number 10s already.

[dramared]

super baller, what we have seen is a probing attacking player, has to deliver the final pass or shot more often.

[marmite sw]

so many experts ..... think ill leave it to the club to decide his future here or not we only get to see him in a few games they get to see him all the time ... in klopp and the coaches i trust

[Fitzy.]

There were times when he looked like he'd been coached to within an inch of his life to the extent that he wasn't play his natural game.

[Ghost Town]

so many experts ..... think ill leave it to the club to decide his future here or not we only get to see him in a few games they get to see him all the time ... in klopp and the coaches i trust

You're new here, right?

(Though I agree with you)

[marmite sw]

new as a member yep new to the forums nope been looking ion daily for as long as i remember  ... been a liverpool fan since mid 70s ... just because im new as a member dont make anyone on here better or worse than me so not sure what your getting at with the ''your new here'' quote if honest

[El Lobo]

[marmite sw]

very childish .... but if that what make you popular then carry on

[Persephone]

very childish .... but if that what make you popular then carry on

He was joking with you mate.

[El Lobo]

I've always loved marmite as well. You know what they say, never meet your heroes.

[Knight]

Forums gonna gatekeep.

[Ghost Town]

new as a member yep new to the forums nope been looking ion daily for as long as i remember  ... been a liverpool fan since mid 70s ... just because im new as a member dont make anyone on here better or worse than me so not sure what your getting at with the ''your new here'' quote if honest

Ah man, that 'you must be new here' gag is surely as old as the hills.

It means I was agreeing with your post and essentially praising the stance you were exhibiting within it

Never meant to cause any Bovril.

I've always loved marmite as well. You know what they say, never meet your heroes.

[Hazell]

Even when Ghost Town is being sincere, he still manages to rub someone up the wrong way.