Topic: Scots Referendum (was Re: The Labour Party Thread.)

[Reheat Red]

Wasn't that sure where to put this but I went to see Jim Murphy today at one of his referendum street rallies, more impressive politician than I thought he was, dealt with the hecklers brilliantly. 

[Elmo!]

Wasn't that sure where to put this but I went to see Jim Murphy today at one of his referendum street rallies, more impressive politician than I thought he was, dealt with the hecklers brilliantly.

You mean by refusing to answer any questions and just shouting over people instead?

[dundeered]

Darling is your typical scottish Uk labour MP ,Defending the nhs privatisation last night and the establishment to the hilt .Thankfully he got put in his place  .I will never vote Uk labour again they are a disgrace .

[Elmo!]

Darling is your typical scottish Uk labour MP ,Defending the nhs privatisation last night and the establishment to the hilt .Thankfully he got put in his place  .I will never vote Uk labour again they are a disgrace .

Their hypocrisy over the NHS is shocking, claiming it is being privatised in NHS in ENgland, that the privatisation will have a knock on effect on the NHS in Wales, yet in Scotland they claim it's not being privatised in England and even if it was it wouldn't have any effect in Scotland.

[Red Beret]

How can you defend NHS privatisation on one hand, deny it is happening on the other, and then claim it wouldn't affect the Scottish NHS anyway, even if it was being privatised??

[Mutton Geoff]

To be fair Darling is the best weapon the yes vote have,

[Red Beret]

Well he's certainly a weapon.

[Reheat Red]

Salmond did his usual by shouting over people and avoiding answering questions properly, it was always going to be an anti-climax for Darling after he unexpectedly won the first debate but I don't see last night swinging a lot of people either way, not much new was learned. 

The NHS claims from the Yes camp is shameful scaremongering, the sole responsibility for how that is run is with the Scottish government. 

[Mutton Geoff]

Salmond did his usual by shouting over people and avoiding answering questions properly, it was always going to be an anti-climax for Darling after he unexpectedly won the first debate but I don't see last night swinging a lot of people either way, not much new was learned. 

The NHS claims from the Yes camp is shameful scaremongering, the sole responsibility for how that is run is with the Scottish government. 

guess it depends whose side you are on , i must be neutral as i can't vote but the guy doing most of the interrupting and shouting was Darling, and the main question he refused to answer was the one about what he would do about the currency issue if the yes vote won, would he support trying to get an agreement on using the pound or not. He completely ducked that and also  found himself  supporting the government NHS policy

[Reheat Red]

guess it depends whose side you are on , i must be neutral as i can't vote but the guy doing most of the interrupting and shouting was Darling, and the main question he refused to answer was the one about what he would do about the currency issue if the yes vote won, would he support trying to get an agreement on using the pound or not. He completely ducked that and also  found himself  supporting the government NHS policy

This is a debate about whether we vote Yes or No and Darling is fighting for a No, if he starts talking like he's contemplating a Yes vote he'd just be accused of thinking he's losing.  I don't think he handled the issue very well and seemed to let Salmond rattle him, but it's a red herring of a question because the relevant people have ruled out a currency union, Darling might be a former chancellor but he'll be representing what is to be a foreign constituency if we vote Yes so won't have any influence. 

Where did he support it?  He called out the scare stories, they're trying to make it sound like the NHS in England is as good as gone with operations getting cancelled etc and that it's going to creep into being the same here.  I don't agree myself with the way the NHS seems to be going in England but it's shameful scaremongering to use it in this debate, by all means point to welfare, foreign affairs which Westminster is responsible for but the SNP cannot pass the buck over things they have full control over.

I'm unlikely to ever give Salmond much praise, if I was forced to say someone won then yes he probably did but simply by his usual bully boy tactics which he is good at. 

[Mutton Geoff]

This is a debate about whether we vote Yes or No and Darling is fighting for a No, if he starts talking like he's contemplating a Yes vote he'd just be accused of thinking he's losing.  I don't think he handled the issue very well and seemed to let Salmond rattle him, but it's a red herring of a question because the relevant people have ruled out a currency union, Darling might be a former chancellor but he'll be representing what is to be a foreign constituency if we vote Yes so won't have any influence. 

Where did he support it?  He called out the scare stories, they're trying to make it sound like the NHS in England is as good as gone with operations getting cancelled etc and that it's going to creep into being the same here.  I don't agree myself with the way the NHS seems to be going in England but it's shameful scaremongering to use it in this debate, by all means point to welfare, foreign affairs which Westminster is responsible for but the SNP cannot pass the buck over things they have full control over.

I'm unlikely to ever give Salmond much praise, if I was forced to say someone won then yes he probably did but simply by his usual bully boy tactics which he is good at. 

But what he would do after a yes vote is a good question in fact it came from the chair not the floor, he is constantly saying the currency issue is flawed, so i see no problem asking him that question as if they vote yes they might need his expertise to help with negotiations.

Actually from what i saw and heard Alex rightly said the NHS is being privatised in the rest of the UK, and linked the Jarrow march to show the disquiet in England with the Tory/libdem policy, his point was valid if Scotland was independent they can run it as they wish or rather the voters wish, something not happening in England right now.

[dundeered]

Salmond did his usual by shouting over people and avoiding answering questions properly, it was always going to be an anti-climax for Darling after he unexpectedly won the first debate but I don't see last night swinging a lot of people either way, not much new was learned. 

The NHS claims from the Yes camp is shameful scaremongering, the sole responsibility for how that is run is with the Scottish government. 

Darling was firmly shown for what he is , a fcuking hypocrite and as a corrupt as the rest of them in Westminster , AS firmly trounced him and didn't resort to pointing ,and called him by his name rather than 'him ' .the wee wifie got it spot on about him , he's a horrible git., but I expect that of him as he is a uk politician .
Uk political party or Scottish political party to run your country is a no brainer , it's not a vote about AS that Tory boy above seems to hate so much it's about the next election if it's a yes . We already have a separate  Scottish labour and Scottish socialist party for independence full of ex labour people who had morals .

[TepidT2O]

Darling was firmly shown for what he is , a fcuking hypocrite and as a corrupt as the rest of them in Westminster , AS firmly trounced him and didn't resort to pointing ,and called him by his name rather than 'him ' .the wee wifie got it spot on about him , he's a horrible git., but I expect that of him as he is a uk politician .
Uk political party or Scottish political party to run your country is a no brainer , it's not a vote about AS that Tory boy above seems to hate so much it's about the next election if it's a yes . We already have a separate  Scottish labour and Scottish socialist party for independence full of ex labour people who had morals .

Bordering on racism I feel here.

His nationality has no influence on his competence, capability or whether he is wrong or right.

[Reheat Red]

Of course this is about Salmond, he's the one who'll be leading the negotiations, this is his ego trip.

[dundeered]

Wind your neck in eh , bordering on nothing , he is a politician of the uk so is looking after his seat within the uk parliament as all the Scottish Labour MPs are doing and doing as their puppet masters in London are telling them , racism ,what a stupid thing to say .

[dundeered]

Of course this is about Salmond, he's the one who'll be leading the negotiations, this is his ego trip.

Anyone voting on the basis of a hatred of a single person is an idiot .

[Reheat Red]

Anyone voting on the basis of a hatred of a single person is an idiot .

One of the core arguments of Yes seems to be based on hatred of Thatcher, also a single person

[dundeered]

One of the core arguments of Yes seems to be based on hatred of Thatcher, also a single person

Don't be so stupid , I have never seen anything about that , and the hatred for her is from more than just scots , I know you have a soft spot for her though .

[HarryLabrador]

One of the core arguments of Yes seems to be based on hatred of Thatcher, also a single person

Thatcher was not a 'single person'. Thatcherism became an institution, an ideology embraced by the far-right.

[TepidT2O]

Wind your neck in eh , bordering on nothing , he is a politician of the uk so is looking after his seat within the uk parliament as all the Scottish Labour MPs are doing and doing as their puppet masters in London are telling them , racism ,what a stupid thing to say .

He is a Scottish politician.  He represents his Scottish constituents.

Actually I found your post to be racist, but if course we're not allowed to say that an element of the yes vote is a racist vote.

[Reheat Red]

Thatcher was not a 'single person'. Thatcherism became an institution, an ideology embraced by the far-right.

Salmond isn't a single person either though, he represents a separatist ideology that I have no time for yet sadly it has crept into the Scottish population over time. 

[The Gulleysucker]

Thatcher was not a 'single person'. Thatcherism became an institution, an ideology embraced by the far-right.

And it would seem there was a fair few of that pursuasion North of the border...

Scotland has a dirty secret. Many Scots liked Thatcherism. But these people have been written out of history: to listen to the independence debate, or to how Scotland has talked about itself since the early 80s, you might imagine that her governments – with their southern English, sharp-edged, supposedly fundamentally foreign ways – were foisted on Scotland entirely through English votes.

Like so many of the black and white things still said about Thatcherism, it is a convenient myth. In fact, Scottish support was crucial to her coming to power. At the 1979 election, the Conservatives won over 31% of the Scottish vote, an increase of almost a third on the previous election – when they had been led by the much less carnivorous Edward Heath. In 1979, the Tories also won 22 Scottish seats; had these gone to other parties, Thatcher's 44-strong majority would have disappeared entirely.

Four years of abrasive Tory government followed: the decimation of manufacturing, the harsh dogma of monetarism, the beginning of modern British military adventuring with the Falklands war. Did Scots reject it all in disgust? Not exactly: Tory support in Scotland at the 1983 election dropped by just 3% (it fell in England too). At the 1987 election, the Scottish Tory vote slipped another 4%. But then, at the 1992 election – the Conservative victory that ensured many of the Thatcherite changes to Britain would not be reversed – Tartan Toryism revived again, increasing its vote share to 26%: still higher than Heath had managed in 1974.

In 1992, even after 13 years of Tory rule, after the early imposition of the poll tax on Scotland, and countless tin-eared Thatcher trips north of the border, a large minority of Scots approved of what the Tories had done to their country. In a close election, that approval was quietly pivotal for Thatcher's deceptively rightwing successor John Major.

The Tory vote in Scotland did not finally collapse until the 1997 election,....  (note that Thatcher had gone by then)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/10/scotland-dirty-secret-thatcherites-referendum

Even Salmond is on record as being an admirer of the economic side of Thatcherism ...

Speaking to the Tory blogger Iain Dale in 2008 about his country's feelings towards the Thatcher government, SNP leader Alex Salmond said: "We didn't mind the economic side so much.".....

The Scotsman also reported this ... http://www.scotsman.com/news/alex-salmond-scotland-didn-t-mind-thatcher-economics-1-1086679

So it would perhaps be wiser not to use the term hypocrite to only one side in here.

As far as I can see, both sides seem to be as bad as each other with their lies and exaggerations and distraction techniques.

It's really not as simple, or certainly going to be as simple, as some would perhaps like to make out.

[HarryLabrador]

And it would seem there was a fair few of that pursuasion North of the border...

Wow, that's a good read and a real eye opener for me. Thanks.

[Reheat Red]

The SNP were campaigning for independence while we were fighting against the Nazis, this left wing image fighting against the right wing UK governments is a relatively new thing simply designed to win the votes

[RojoLeón]

The Nazis were rank amateurs compared to the British Empire.

The ethnic cleansing of the Highlands, wars of aggression across the planet, racism/social Darwinism as a matter of public policy, etc.. The Nazis had a few years. The British Empire had 100s.

The Scots were trying to get independence from a worse set of bastards than the Nazis ever managed to be

[SP]

The Nazis were rank amateurs compared to the British Empire.

The ethnic cleansing of the Highlands, wars of aggression across the planet, racism/social Darwinism as a matter of public policy, etc.. The Nazis had a few years. The British Empire had 100s.

The Scots were trying to get independence from a worse set of bastards than the Nazis ever managed to be

Really? You do not have to win the internet every time you post. It is really counter-productive spiking the legitimate point that you make with outrageous hyperbole. Do you ever read back what you post and consider how it makes you sound? 

[Chakan]

The Nazis were rank amateurs compared to the British Empire.

The ethnic cleansing of the Highlands, wars of aggression across the planet, racism/social Darwinism as a matter of public policy, etc.. The Nazis had a few years. The British Empire had 100s.

The Scots were trying to get independence from a worse set of bastards than the Nazis ever managed to be

11 millions Jews would beg to differ, if they could. Anyway that's another thread.

[Card Cheat]

I thought Salmond conducted himself like a man who knows his career is finished in a few weeks. Unless he always conducts himself like that of course.

[24/7]

The Nazis were rank amateurs compared to the British Empire.

The ethnic cleansing of the Highlands, wars of aggression across the planet, racism/social Darwinism as a matter of public policy, etc.. The Nazis had a few years. The British Empire had 100s.

The Scots were trying to get independence from a worse set of bastards than the Nazis ever managed to be

Oh you've really outdone yourself now............congratulations, just when I thought you couldn't get any lower. I can see you now bouncing around your mum's cellar in self-righteous indignation at the injustice of being called out over your conceited arrogance masquerading as wisdom.

Get tae fuck will ye!

[RojoLeón]

11 millions Jews would beg to differ, if they could. Anyway that's another thread.

11million? Wut?

[24/7]

11million? Wut?

We're done here. You lose. This thread will be "cleansed" after a short interval.....