Topic: FSG discussion thread

[LiamG]

Their asset has grown £3bn in value since they bought it. Is it too much to ask them to put even a little bit of their own money into the club?

That's never been their strategy, we spend what we earn and have relied massively on player sales


Jürgen Klopp, “It’s not, as we say in Germany, that we swim in money. It’s a wealthy club, but the policy is clear: we spend what we earn. If we earn more, we can spend more; if we earn less, we spend less.”

Andy Hughes, LFC managing director, “It is imperative that we continue to live within our means and operate within football’s regulations and financial fair play. But we’ll continue to reinvest on and off the pitch to compete at the highest levels”

[riismeister]

Things FSG have done well:

•   Pay competitive wages to attract and keep the best players
•   Get a top class manager in that can help transform the club from top to bottom
•   Increase the stadium capacity
•   Stop losing all our best players to other clubs
•   Find a workable solution for the Anfield Road stand
•   Tie down our best players to longer contracts for their peak years
•   Build a proper recruitment team, aligned with the manager's philosophy
•   Invest in the Academy and facilities
•   Compete commercially with other big clubs and grow our revenues
•   Get back to the European glory days again
•   Put a footballing structure in place to help us regularly compete for the title
•   Don’t leverage the club with unmanageable debt, or ever put the future of the club at risk

Things FSG could’ve done better:

•   Invested more into the playing squad (at least more consistently across the last 5-6 years)
•   Taken more advantage of our position of strength between 2018 and 2020
•   Handled the ticket price situation better
•   Consulted fans and the community on the ESL plans

I've used strikethrough on the points that aren't strictly about money and how it's spent and bolded the points about how how the money is spent.

The accounts are essentially a zero-sum game. Liverpool FC doesn't have an endless well of money like some other cheater clubs. Wishing for more money is pointless. Wishing for the available money to be spent differently is absolutely fine but we have to say what we want to prioritize less as well as what we want to prioritize more, not just the latter.

For those who want the club to spend more on transfers, you have to also suggest what they should spend less on for that idea to have any sense and meaning. Should they pay less in wages and let top players leave? Not upgrade the stadium and let increased future revenue and fan experience be? Not invest in the academy and training facilities?

Edit:

And just a couple of notes:
1) LFC has in the past 6 years - while building a new Main Stand, building new training facilities, and starting rebuilding ARE - still spent 82% of its revenue on the playing squad in wages and budgeted transfer costs (player amortization).
2) LFC has very little "dead money" leaving the club (ie. money that doesn't really give the club anything of value back). FSG has taken no dividends and has not taken money out of the club in other ways, and LFC spend moderate amounts on taxes and interest payments on loans compared to many other rich clubs.

[clinical]

That's never been their strategy, we spend what we earn and have relied massively on player sales


Jürgen Klopp, “It’s not, as we say in Germany, that we swim in money. It’s a wealthy club, but the policy is clear: we spend what we earn. If we earn more, we can spend more; if we earn less, we spend less.”

Andy Hughes, LFC managing director, “It is imperative that we continue to live within our means and operate within football’s regulations and financial fair play. But we’ll continue to reinvest on and off the pitch to compete at the highest levels”

I know what their strategy is and I'm questionning it. It's no longer sustainable due to other clubs and NO not only state owned clubs mate. Arsenal, Spurs, Utd, Chelsea all spending way more. 

[LiamG]

I know what their strategy is and I'm questionning it. It's no longer sustainable due to other clubs and NO not only state owned clubs mate. Arsenal, Spurs, Utd, Chelsea all spending way more. 

My point was, they aren't suddenly going to suddenly change now, all they can do is try their best to boost our income to spend more (Increasing commercial, stadium etc) It's a fine balance with trying to compete but also trying to invest, a balance that this season so far isn't paying off

[WanderlustRed]

They got extremely lucky on two occasions, firstly getting Klopp to become our manager, he could've easily said no. Secondly, getting over 140 million for Coutinho, without that insanity from Barca we don't get Becker and Virg

The news about Edwards going to Utd is depressing as fuck. The best behind the scenes man in world football and he's going to them c*nts.

Is he though? I guess we're about to find out. Personally think his impact was overrated. Clearly he's a disloyal POS, though.

If Ian Graham leaves...then I'll be concerned.

I imagine that might be part of why Liverpool has become more closed-doors as far as sharing work after he left. He might know what they were doing, but he doesn't know what they're doing now. Edwards was just the public face of others' work -- a middle man between the analyst team and Gordon/Klopp/etc.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Some fucking spoilt crying fucking whoppers 'supporting' our club

I think we've done amazing and what we've done, we've done without fucking cheating

[keyop]

So where do we go from here? Are we just accepting our fate and resigned to the fact we’ll regress to the norm once Klopp goes. Fuck me thats depressing.

I think we're at 2 crossroads - one with FSG and the other with the game itself.

The decisions FSG make in the next 2-3 years could easily dictate how the next 20 years unfolds after that. Who knows - Jurgen might even stay longer if he gets the financial backing many are saying he wants, and if Guardiola goes, then it'll get really interesting. It certainly feels like a pivotal time for making some big decisions.

However, my biggest worry is the game itself and where it's heading. It's been painful to watch one of the best managers in ours (and football's) history have to compete with cheats, and see titles lost to them that we'd have won at a canter under normal circumstances. Whilst it's made our success all the more gratifying, I have mixed feelings about getting Jurgen when we did - on the one hand he's allowed us to compete with the most financially doped club in history, but on the other there will always be that nagging 'if only' feeling about what we could've achieved if the footballing landscape hadn't changed so dramatically.

[WanderlustRed]

They wanted the Super League for a reason.

Yup, there it is.

The Super League was a good idea and would have been good for Liverpool. The elephant in the room.

Sky went apoplectic over it because it would have been a disaster for them. And then the fans bought it hook, line and sinker.

The commissioner of the NBA recently talked about how relegation was considered briefly as a remedy for teams "tanking" (intentionally losing) to get a better chance at the top draft pick. Ultimately, he said it was a short consideration because there are no teams in the 2nd division that could do anything close to compete in the NBA, on the court or financially.

No one is losing anything by Everton or West Ham not having a chance to compete in the Super League.

[Mighty_Red]

Great even handed OP Keyop.

One think we need to get away from is the penis envy of looking at how much other teams are spending and immediate relate it to our levels of spend. We simply don't know how they are financing it and we never really notice when teams suddenly start selling up when their punts haven't paid off.

Mentioned this in the match thread but Kroenke has been sitting on a large cash pile for years as they spent nothing. They finally realised they had to spend 3/4 years ago and now they are though they haven't actually competed for trophies yet.

Spurs are similar, spent fuck all for 2/3 years, now playing catch up as Conte demands it.

We also have to recognise that we have spent money, Konate in 21, Diaz in Jan and Nunez this summer - all players that are our future. The only question should be whether we left gaps in the squad (undeniably we have) and whether we've spent enough. Personally I think not getting a younger backup option for Fabhino has cost us but even then I didn't think he would have such a horrible loss of form. The big game changing purchases dont always happen mainly as they are long term targets - we don't spend to keep fans happy. I'd say probably should've bought 2 more sub £40m players in the past 2 years max, so not an entire squad revolution like some want.

The net spend argument never tells the whole story. Much of the profits are from players we've developed like Neco Williams, but some of it finances the Academy.

Really, they only time I got pissed off was Jan 21 when we took too long to react to the disaster in defence, maybe we did the same in August.

[naYoRHa2b]

FSG have done a few things right. Stadium improvements and new training facility, better commercial deals, sound recruitment up until recently and most importantly Jürgen Klopp.

Klopp is a miracle worker, no other manager would of achieved the levels we have with this playing squad. He's a genius and with the recruitment of players like Mane and Salah who just fit it was a beautiful thing.

I honestly look at the players we've signed and they benefited from Klopp and his methods so much. I'd probably say Alisson, Thiago and Virgil could fit into any team in the world and play at that level they've shown, they'd just play their game. Not knocking other players but I don't think there's any guarantees they'd improve or remain at the level they showed here. Look at Gini, Mane, Coutinho, even Emre Can showed more here under Klopp than he ever did since he left. Fuck me Klavan looked a good player...

Klopp elevated us to levels beyond belief, that'll end soon and even though I'd like to see Klopp backed heavily before he goes because I do believe we need heavy investment. What will be the biggest test to these owners is who they back after Klopp because make no mistake If there are similar levels of investment in the playing squad we won't be competing for much, we'll be out in the cold again.

[Redric1970]

I've used strikethrough on the points that aren't strictly about money and how it's spent and bolded the points about how how the money is spent.

The accounts are essentially a zero-sum game. Liverpool FC doesn't have an endless well of money like some other cheater clubs. Wishing for more money is pointless. Wishing for the available money to be spent differently is absolutely fine but we have to say what we want to prioritize less as well as what we want to prioritize more, not just the latter.

For those who want the club to spend more on transfers, you have to also suggest what they should spend less on for that idea to have any sense and meaning. Should they pay less in wages and let top players leave? Not upgrade the stadium and let increased future revenue and fan experience be? Not invest in the academy and training facilities?

Edit:

And just a couple of notes:
1) LFC has in the past 6 years - while building a new Main Stand, building new training facilities, and starting rebuilding ARE - still spent 82% of its revenue on the playing squad in wages and budgeted transfer costs (player amortization).
2) LFC has very little "dead money" leaving the club (ie. money that doesn't really give the club anything of value back). FSG has taken no dividends and has not taken money out of the club in other ways, and LFC spend moderate amounts on taxes and interest payments on loans compared to many other rich clubs.

If you are right we are fucked because even with the most profitable time we can’t spend, if that’s the case without champions league football we are royally fucked.

[WanderlustRed]

I’d love to know what Klopp really thinks about the stewardship of the club - or Edwards, for that matter. What a pint that would be.

I suspect we might get treated to some Liverpool-bashing nonsense from Edwards soon enough.

[Dim Glas]

Nah you wouldn’t. Anyone who says that is chatting bollocks to toe the party line on here.

So you wouldn’t want Klopp to have unlimited funds to sign any player he wanted rather than having to beg, steal and borrow to sign shite like Minamino?  Ok.

‘Nah’ you can’t state what people you don’t know would do.

And calling  a player who did his utmost here, professionally, and helped us win a couple cups shite? Some ‘fan’ you are.

[WanderlustRed]

Great move for Edwards that if true. Going to a club that doesn’t penny pinch so he’ll be absolutely delighted to be able to work in a model that isn’t sell to buy.

If they can buy whoever they want, why do they need him? The rest of the company officers will still be a clown show.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I know what their strategy is and I'm questionning it. It's no longer sustainable due to other clubs and NO not only state owned clubs mate. Arsenal, Spurs, Utd, Chelsea all spending way more.

Im sorry mate, but plenty of people have spent time on this thread exploring the why and how around both FSG and other clubs. All you do is come back with xyz are spending more. It adds nothing.

[WanderlustRed]

I'd walk away from the club if we became a sportswashed team. Would rather see us in the lower leagues with some integrity than become what City and Newcastle have become.

Amen. I said the same about if FSG hired Mourinho, and I meant it. Fortunately, they had enough sense not to.

[TwitterJayy]

If you are right we are fucked because even with the most profitable time we can’t spend, if that’s the case without champions league football we are royally fucked.

We won the champions league in 18/19 and signed Adrian and a kid.
I’m not having that the prize money on top of the PL tv money for coming second that’s all we could afford. Why can other clubs spend such as spurs.

If FSG could match arsenal in spending then I don’t see why not to be happy with them, I know there’s limits but they take the piss.

Tightest owners you will ever get. Let Gini go on a free and replaced him with a kid.

[Fruity]

I think they have done some very good things on the commercial side. Increased the stadium size, which for years seemed like a pipe dream. Increased commercial/sponsorship side - which obviously needed to happen - so they delivered there. They basically have turned a £300 million pound club into a figure 10 times that.

We won a CL, PL, FA, league, super cup and World Club cup. Reality is some teams don't see one of them in a fans (or clubs) lifetime. And we are talking big teams as well. So we are lucky to have had that.

We have basically set the foundations to go stratospheric - and truth is we really should have, but somehow we seemed to have stalled. I am not going to say it's unforgivable or anything but they do need to show their intentions as to what their plan is next. I am of the opinion that you should always strive to improve especially when in a position of power. The difficult part is staying at the top after the effort to get there. And they messed up there.

My feeling is they are going to have to dip into the coffers big time. Winter window and summer I am expecting signings. They are sitting on a £2.7 billion profit from this club - and whilst in fairness they have done the work to increase the value - they need to reinvest some of that future profit to make us competitive again at the highest level.

[Fromola]

Once Klopp goes?

We're pretty much there already.

I think this season (and 20/21) are indicative of FSG in the sense that it's always very up and down. Red Sox are the same. They can win the World Series one year and finish bottom the next. Their best seasons tend to be followed by really poor ones.

Even before Klopp you had the real high of the 13/14 season, followed by the abject misery of 14/15 and the end of the Rodgers reign.

They're not dynasty builders. being a winning machine isn't the priority, it's all about revenue and balancing the books. Obviously the more revenue we have then the more we can spend on players (this is where FSG have been good as they've helped grow the revenue). But whether we finish 1st, 2nd or 4th isn't that important. THat's the different with the Red Sox though, we need that CL income and that's what they want the ESL so they can take away the jeopardy and like Red Sox they can finish bottom of the league one season and it won't hit them in the pocket as much.

[Kennys from heaven]

Some fucking spoilt crying fucking whoppers 'supporting' our club

I think we've done amazing and what we've done, we've done without fucking cheating

Spot on Andy mate

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

We won the champions league in 18/19 and signed Adrian and a kid.
I’m not having that the prize money on top of the PL tv money for coming second that’s all we could afford. Why can other clubs spend such as spurs.

If FSG could match arsenal in spending then I don’t see why not to be happy with them, I know there’s limits but they take the piss.

Tightest owners you will ever get. Let Gini go on a free and replaced him with a kid.

Over what period? Does that include wages? What if Arsenal sell a big player, do we have to match that? What if Arsenal reduce their spending, do we reduce too?

[Eeyore]

My point was, they aren't suddenly going to suddenly change now, all they can do is try their best to boost our income to spend more (Increasing commercial, stadium etc) It's a fine balance with trying to compete but also trying to invest, a balance that this season so far isn't paying off

I think we should go back to the very start.

There was a court case in 2017 in the New York Supreme Court between Mill Financial and George Gillet. In it emails were released between John Henry and other members of NESV (FSG).

“That is the concept of acquiring a top global brand at a discount price and ensuring it is well managed. I am interested now in trying to ascertain if this is indeed a major opportunity that would indeed diversify and strengthen NESV.”

 “If we could acquire this for the debt, I really feel like we would be stealing this franchise.
 
“In some ways they really are in the dark ages — especially competitively. The best and brightest are not presently working on English soccer. But the English Premier League is bigger than the NFL, NASCAR, MLB and the NBA internationally. Only Formula One can begin to compare in viewership.

“This could be a steal. Every buyer believes what potential Red Sox buyers believed — you have to build a new stadium. And they believe the stadium will cost more than £350m! That’s why there are no bidders. We would probably take the same approach we took to Fenway Park. But we’d be looking to limit investment in the facility to 8 figures.

“Then how much is this worth if we recruit the best and the brightest to run the soccer operation?”


The key line for me is that they knew they were buying the club on the cheap and were prepared to invest money in improving and extending Anfield. That is where their intentions have changed. They haven't invested in the Stadium and haven't invested in the Training ground.

Instead, they have loaded the costs for infrastructure improvements onto the Club. In the last accounts, the club had debts of £234m.

What has happened is that since the Club started paying for the redevelopment of the Main Stand, the new training ground and the Anfield Road redevelopment our Net spend has fallen to pathetic levels.

At a time when we should have been consolidating our position as the best team on the planet by strengthening our squad and preparing for the future around £250m has been siphoned off from our transfer budget and spent on infrastructure. Whilst that has happened the value of the Club has skyrocketed at least tenfold.

When that was pointed out we were told the valuation was just that and FSG could only access that increase in value when they sold the Club. Well they managed to access that increase in value when they sold 10% of FSG including it's golden goose LFC for £533m. 

So to the people who say FSG won't change well, they have except it is the worse.

The simple truth is if FSG had come in and told the fanbase their intention was to leverage infrastructure debt onto the club and put us nearly a quarter of a billion pounds in the red then they would have been run out of town.

They need to go back to what they intended to do and invest in our facilities and allow the club to spend its revenues on the playing staff. 

[keyop]

I think we can broadly split FSG's tenure into 3 phases:

Phase 1: 2010 to 2015
This was where they cut their teeth, and we had Hodgson, Kenny, and then Rodgers at the helm. We won a trophy, enjoyed a genuine title challenge, and decided to remain at Anfield and develop the stadium. There were high points of 2013/14, and signings like Suarez,  Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho, Hendo, Gomez and Milner. On the flipside there was the transfer committee shenanigans, the dark days of the owl, and players like Balotelli, Borini, Konchesky and Carroll.

Phase 2: 2015 to 2020
This was when everything ramped up - Jurgen, the stadium, transfers, commercial revenues, the plans to bring the academy and first team together, and lots of developments behind the scenes with recruitment, data, fitness, medical personel and technology. We won number 6, number 19, racked up insane points totals, and had an incredible ride that none of us ever wanted to end.

Phase 3: 2020 to 2022
This is arguably when things began to shift - possibly because FSG felt they'd done enough, or possibly because of the ARE and Kirkby investments plus all the contract extensions (meaning less money was available), or possibly because of the uncertainty during the pandemic and the unknown risks ahead. No doubt their faith in FFP, their plans to join the ESL, and their trust in Jurgen to keep delivering will also have played a part. Injuries were on the rise, after 5 years of herculean efforts against the cheats in the league. An injury crisis in 2020/21 was followed be a late surge for 3rd and then one of the best seasons in my lifetime.

Phase four: 2022 to ?
There's no doubt we need some big decisions, and that whatever the reasons might be (injuries, ageing players, fatigue, transfer failings), this group doesn't seem to have the same spirit, intensity or shape, despite a brilliant performance against City. This can still be a successful season, but questions have rightly been asked about our injury record, transfers, and apparent loss of focus/sharpness. As the main stand and our commercial deals continue to bear fruit, the new ARE gets ready for next summer, and several players reach the end of their contracts, now would be the perfect time to make the next big step - even if it seems a season (or two) too late for some.

[TwitterJayy]

Over what period? Does that include wages? What if Arsenal sell a big player, do we have to match that? What if Arsenal reduce their spending, do we reduce too?

Well let’s consider the past 3 years. They have been able to spend as well as spurs without selling anybody. Spurs also have a nice new stadium too, yet they can spend.

Arsenal owners has been successful in the NFL with the rams and is looking to do the same with Arsenal as well as his e sports team he has…

Its not even over reacting because this could be seen after we won the league. We all know when Klopp goes, under this ownership and structure it’s going to take a miracle to even replicate half of what he has done.

[cdav]

I think we can broadly split FSG's tenure into 3 phases:

Phase 1: 2010 to 2015
This was where they cut their teeth, and we had Hodgson, Kenny, and then Rodgers at the helm. We won a trophy, enjoyed a genuine title challenge, and decided to remain at Anfield and develop the stadium. There were high points of 2013/14, and signings like Suarez,  Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho, Hendo, Gomez and Milner. On the flipside there was the transfer committee shenanigans, the dark days of the owl, and players like Balotelli, Borini, Konchesky and Carroll.

Phase 2: 2015 to 2020
This was when everything ramped up - Jurgen, the stadium, transfers, commercial revenues, the plans to bring the academy and first team together, and lots of developments behind the scenes with recruitment, data, fitness, medical personel and technology. We won number 6, number 19, racked up insane points totals, and had an incredible ride that none of us ever wanted to end.

Phase 3: 2020 to 2022
This is arguably when things began to shift - possibly because FSG felt they'd done enough, or possibly because of the ARE and Kirkby investments plus all the contract extensions (meaning less money was available), or possibly because of the uncertainty during the pandemic and the unknown risks ahead. No doubt their faith in FFP, their plans to join the ESL, and their trust in Jurgen to keep delivering will also have played a part. Injuries were on the rise, after 5 years of herculean efforts against the cheats in the league. An injury crisis in 2020/21 was followed be a late surge for 3rd and then one of the best seasons in my lifetime.

Phase four: 2022 to ?
There's no doubt we need some big decisions, and that whatever the reasons might be (injuries, ageing players, fatigue, transfer failings), this group doesn't seem to have the same spirit, intensity or shape, despite a brilliant performance against City. This can still be a successful season, but questions have rightly been asked about our injury record, transfers, and apparent loss of focus/sharpness. As the main stand and our commercial deals continue to bear fruit, the new ARE gets ready for next summer, and several players reach the end of their contracts, now would be the perfect time to make the next big step - even if it seems a season (or two) too late for some.

I'd agree with this broadly and its why I think the future is what is important. A lot of the other things we spend big money on will be finished and there *should* be plenty of money from our own funds availabe to spend.

Also, its been a shitshow so far this season but even with everything going wrong we are still close to the CL places. We have a really good squad and need to just get some consistency in selection and we'll start shooting up the table.

[rushyman]

I bet everything in here is really positive and not at all full of unrealistic expectations of a non middle eastern business to spend money and not get it back

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

Well let’s consider the past 3 years. They have been able to spend as well as spurs without selling anybody. Spurs also have a nice new stadium too, yet they can spend.

Arsenal owners has been successful in the NFL with the rams and is looking to do the same with Arsenal as well as his e sports team he has…

Its not even over reacting because this could be seen after we won the league. We all know when Klopp goes, under this ownership and structure it’s going to take a miracle to even replicate half of what he has done.

Spurs took out a huge loan post covid. Arsenal won’t carry on spending at their current level, and as I’ve said before, their next challenge is keeping that group of players together.
You can’t say you’d be happy to spend as much as Arsenal and then select a timescale in the past. But even then you aren’t factoring in wages.

[plura]

I bet everything in here is really positive and not at all full of unrealistic expectations of a non middle eastern business to spend money and not get it back

Only read maybe half of the posts so might be off, but most I’ve read have been well thought out and interesting. Even if most are in some ways a bit dissatisfied with FSG I still think they are all happy with them in other ways. And most are still thankful we don’t have oil state owners.

So no it’s not all positive but it’s definitely not full of shite

[Dr Stu-Pid]

I think this season (and 20/21) are indicative of FSG in the sense that it's always very up and down. Red Sox are the same. They can win the World Series one year and finish bottom the next. Their best seasons tend to be followed by really poor ones.

...

They're not dynasty builders. being a winning machine isn't the priority, it's all about revenue and balancing the books

Please let us not turn this into another thread where we try to compare their ownership of teams across completely different sports with very different rewards for good and bad seasons and try to draw conclusions.

But as you have mentioned it:

Most World Series wins since FSG bought the Red Sox:

Red Sox - 4
Giants - 3
Cardinals - 2
11 other teams with 1 win

So they have done a better job of building a 'winning machine' than anyone else in baseball.

Also, the reasons for the Red Sox poor seasons has never been about a lack of investment, and instead has been much more related to poor decisions around how they have spent their money (or maybe more accurately, who they trusted to make the decisions about how to spend their money). They were consistently in the top 3 payroll teams for most of their ownership history.

[Dench57]

Think the discussion about new owners and sportswashing should be for a separate thread, because it always ends up dominating any discussion around FSG. They're our current owners and there's no indication they're going anywhere. We should be able to talk about what's good/bad about them without having fucking Man City become the focus of the conversation every time.

My 2 cents is that I was perfectly happy with FSG, but in recent years I'm starting to feel that we're wasting a very finite period, where we have the best manager in the world, the best manager I'll ever see in the Liverpool dugout, with under-investment in the playing squad. Klopp's proven that he can do can go toe-to-toe with the best when there's a reasonable investment in the playing squad. Nothing massive, I don't expect £300m every summer. But what about an extra £50-80m? Is that not doable?

[Red Bird]

They wanted the Super League for a reason.

Given the way both UEFA and the Premier League (seen the festive fixtures list? ) treat fans, I’m not so sure that if it was such a bad idea after all.

[TwitterJayy]

Spurs took out a huge loan post covid. Arsenal won’t carry on spending at their current level, and as I’ve said before, their next challenge is keeping that group of players together.
You can’t say you’d be happy to spend as much as Arsenal and then select a timescale in the past. But even then you aren’t factoring in wages.

I mean let’s compare when we was in the europa to them.
They sign Jesus and Partey, even Ben white for £50m.

We couldn’t pay £4m for Clint Dempsey.

Let’s be honest everyone pays more than us. Seem like your happy with the way we’re ran and that’s fine. But remember football is about winning. Not bank numbers.

I don’t want to spend for the sake of it. But I think I’ve been patient enough for us to strengthen since Madrid 19.

[Dr Stu-Pid]

Think the discussion about new owners and sportswashing should be for a separate thread, because it always ends up dominating any discussion around FSG. They're our current owners and there's no indication they're going anywhere. We should be able to talk about what's good/bad about them without having fucking Man City become the focus of the conversation every time.

I disagree, because any assessment of what FSG have achieved has to have an asterisk against it because of what it would have looked like without sportswashing. Without City cheating we have 3 PL titles to our name. Without City cheating we have the luxury of resting and rotating players much more, which maybe means we have a fresher team and win a second CL last season. With more rotation and rest maybe our players don't pick up as many injuries and suffer from obvious fatigue and have made a better start to this season. Maybe with the extra PL and CL titles and the associated revenue we are able to convince Tchouameni to choose us over Madrid, and other players in the past. etc etc etc

The achievements of this team, squad, and club under FSG have been remarkable, but they could have been even better if we were competing on a level playing field.

[TwitterJayy]

I disagree, because any assessment of what FSG have achieved has to have an asterisk against it because of what it would have looked like without sportswashing. Without City cheating we have 3 PL titles to our name. Without City cheating we have the luxury of resting and rotating players much more, which maybe means we have a fresher team and win a second CL last season. With more rotation and rest maybe our players don't pick up as many injuries and suffer from obvious fatigue and have made a better start to this season. Maybe with the extra PL and CL titles and the associated revenue we are able to convince Tchouameni to choose us over Madrid, and other players in the past. etc etc etc

The achievements of this team, squad, and club under FSG have been remarkable, but they could have been even better if we were competing on a level playing field.

Under Klopp*
No manager in the world can work on the budget he’s had.
Think I seen Simon Jordan praise Klopps points per ££ spent. And said for what he’s had, we shouldn’t of achieved what we have.

I’ll thank FSG for a lot and they have been great owners but surely there’s a time, we’re somethings got to change. They’re smart people, they’ve made mistakes but there surely not going to let our value plummet because of lack of investment…

[Dench57]

I disagree, because any assessment of what FSG have achieved has to have an asterisk against it because of what it would have looked like without sportswashing. Without City cheating we have 3 PL titles to our name. Without City cheating we have the luxury of resting and rotating players much more, which maybe means we have a fresher team and win a second CL last season. With more rotation and rest maybe our players don't pick up as many injuries and suffer from obvious fatigue and have made a better start to this season. Maybe with the extra PL and CL titles and the associated revenue we are able to convince Tchouameni to choose us over Madrid, and other players in the past. etc etc etc

Yeah agree with all that but the thing is, there is no "without City". They're not going anywhere and there's nothing we can do about it. Of course everything we do or don't achieve will be up against the asterisk of competing against City. But FSG can do, or not do things, that have nothing to do with Man City. We're not sportwash-rich but we're still in pretty rude financial health. We should still be able to talk about our club, our squad, our owners, fucking Liverpool, without having to view it through this relentless prism of Man City. I'm fucking sick of them. We cannot compete with state-owned clubs' financial power, that's a given. Why can't we talk about LFC in relation to Arsenal or Spurs or United or Leicester or any other "normal" clubs in the league?

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I mean let’s compare when we was in the europa to them.
They sign Jesus and Partey, even Ben white for £50m.

We couldn’t pay £4m for Clint Dempsey.

Let’s be honest everyone pays more than us. Seem like your happy with the way we’re ran and that’s fine. But remember football is about winning. Not bank numbers.

I don’t want to spend for the sake of it. But I think I’ve been patient enough for us to strengthen since Madrid 19.

I’m fairly neutral, but I just think if we want to use other clubs as a comparison, we need to be accurate in what we’re comparing. It’s just plain daft to compare an alleged transfer from almost a decade ago with Arsenal recently.
You equally can’t say everyone pays more than us and ignore what we pay on wages.
For years, every time a player looked to be doing well for us, he’d be linked with a move away. That’s stopped. Success has helped, but even Klopp and trophies wouldn’t keep players if we didn’t pay the £.

You can point to transfer fees all you want, but loads of clubs have wasted money that they’ll never see again. Some clubs are borrowing money to spend on transfers, some rely on owners that will realise they’ve been taken for mugs. Then for the odd club that buy well, they then have the problem of keeping those players happy.

It’s just not as sim0le as you’re making out.

[CS111]

I know it's hindsight but if klopp hadn't signed things could have been a hell of a lot worse.
Fsg have done a lot for the club but mostly to enhance their own investment, increasing capacity, revenue, training ground etc.
However when it comes to investing in players they have fell way way too short in my opinion. It's obviously a business for them which I can understand, but owning a football club, especially one as big as ours , needs to be invested in , year on year on year which hasn't been done.
If Klopp left in the morning, look at our squad and given the age and injuries of key players, and we would be in serious serious shit with another manager
Fsg have already left it 3 or 4 transfer windows too late to keep us fresh and if it doesn't happen in the next window and next summer where big investment is made in the first team, then we are all of a sudden going from world champions to a europa league club, while others overtake us.

[cdav]

I mean let’s compare when we was in the europa to them.
They sign Jesus and Partey, even Ben white for £50m.

We couldn’t pay £4m for Clint Dempsey.

Let’s be honest everyone pays more than us. Seem like your happy with the way we’re ran and that’s fine. But remember football is about winning. Not bank numbers.

I don’t want to spend for the sake of it. But I think I’ve been patient enough for us to strengthen since Madrid 19.

Football is about winning, which we've been doing pretty well until the last few months. I don't think going back 9 years really adds much to this argument!

[TwitterJayy]

I’m fairly neutral, but I just think if we want to use other clubs as a comparison, we need to be accurate in what we’re comparing. It’s just plain daft to compare an alleged transfer from almost a decade ago with Arsenal recently.
You equally can’t say everyone pays more than us and ignore what we pay on wages.
For years, every time a player looked to be doing well for us, he’d be linked with a move away. That’s stopped. Success has helped, but even Klopp and trophies wouldn’t keep players if we didn’t pay the £.

You can point to transfer fees all you want, but loads of clubs have wasted money that they’ll never see again. Some clubs are borrowing money to spend on transfers, some rely on owners that will realise they’ve been taken for mugs. Then for the odd club that buy well, they then have the problem of keeping those players happy.

It’s just not as sim0le as you’re making out.

It’s not the best of examples because we’ve been in the europa once under Klopp and that’s when he joined half way. But the point was made to compare the spending.
Even in the champions league we’ve never used our position to strengthen. Summer 2019, we had everyone wanting to join… we got Adrian and a kid :/

I’m not wanting stupid signings like mbappe or even Bellingham quoted price now.
I just don’t see why we couldn’t strengthen a midfield that’s injury prone an had no cover

[Redric1970]

Al made a point in his post above they paid £300mil for the club and we now have £234mil debt that can’t be right surely? Obviously I know what they paid but surely our debt isn’t that much is it.