Author Topic: Grenfell Tower Fire  (Read 137992 times)

Offline Peabee

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2017, 08:57:08 am »
Heartbreaking.   I fear the number of fatalities.  The private management company should be charged with manslaughter if the cladding is to blame. 
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Offline gazzalfc

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2017, 08:58:44 am »
The company that did the renovation work are trying to remove all online traces of their work this morning

Luckily enough the online cache of the website it still avalaible

http://web.archive.org/web/20170614055549/http://www.rydon.co.uk/what-we-do/refurbishment/case-studies/refurbishment-case-studies/grenfell-tower
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 09:00:57 am by gazzalfc »

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2017, 09:02:08 am »
We aren't walking through the storm now - we are the storm.

Offline The Final Third

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2017, 09:03:30 am »
Off the Guardian:

Quote
Rydon, the company responsible for the cladding and retrofitting refurbishments at Grenfell Tower have scraped all references to the refurbishment from their site.

But a cached summary of the refurbishment is here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20170614055549/http://www.rydon.co.uk/what-we-do/refurbishment/case-studies/refurbishment-case-studies/grenfell-tower

The company that provided the external cladding panels for Rydon have since gone bust:

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2015/09/14/cladding-firm-harley-curtain-wall-pre-packed/


Seems the plastic cladding acted like an accelerant and the whole building was engulfed in a matter of minutes.




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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2017, 09:05:28 am »
A former colleague of mine moved out of the tower recently. They were paying £2,000 a month to live there, which for some reason in my mind makes this a whole lot worse but I guess that's London.

Thoughts are with all those affected.
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Offline the 92A

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2017, 09:08:50 am »
Unusual fire behaviour in a building  with reinforced concrete structure. Normally unless directly effected by fire the safest thing is to remain in your flat.
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Offline Trada

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2017, 09:08:53 am »
Off the Guardian:

Seems the plastic cladding acted like an accelerant and the whole building was engulfed in a matter of minutes.

Maybe they changed there minds and put it back or it made them look guilty of hiding something.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2017, 09:10:58 am »
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2017, 09:11:27 am »
So many things I want to say, but now is not the time.

May those who have perish rest in peace. Love to all affected.
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Offline The Final Third

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2017, 09:12:26 am »
Maybe they changed there minds and put it back or it made them look guilty of hiding something.

Yep..it defo would have cast more suspicion on them.

BBC interviewing a tenant who is saying that his neighbour claimed his fridge exploding was the cause of the fire.

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2017, 09:14:58 am »
Unusual fire behaviour in a building  with reinforced concrete structure. Normally unless directly effected by fire the safest thing is to remain in your flat.

Should there have been sprinkler systems in a tower that size?

Offline SP

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2017, 09:16:00 am »
Maybe they changed there minds and put it back or it made them look guilty of hiding something.

Maybe their website crashed under the unexpected demand.

Offline The Final Third

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2017, 09:18:30 am »
Unusual fire behaviour in a building  with reinforced concrete structure. Normally unless directly effected by fire the safest thing is to remain in your flat.

Yeah this was the "Stay Put" policy of the landlord KCTMO apparently:


The fire safety advice to Grenfell Tower residents was to stay in their flats unless told otherwise.

A newsletter to residents published in 2014 said:

Our longstanding ‘stay put’ policy stays in force until you are told otherwise. This means that (unless there is a fire in your flat or in the hallway outside your flat) you should stay inside your flat. This is because Grenfell was designed according to rigorous fire safety standards. Also, the new front doors for each flat can withstand a fire for up to 30 minutes, which gives plenty of time for the fire brigade to arrive.



Not much good if the building is cooking you from the outside over a period of five hours..




Offline the 92A

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2017, 09:22:25 am »
Not necessarily. Now, I think every residential building over 30m needs sprinklers but this would have been built much earlier. Sprinklers are very effective but cost to fit and maintain
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2017, 09:24:21 am »
This is too horrible for words. Unimaginable the panic you'd feel not knowing whether to stay out or flee.

Offline The North Bank

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2017, 09:27:38 am »
I would never stay in my flat if there was a fire, I dont care what the advise is.

I drive past this building every day, the motorway overlooks it, will be a very sad sight.
Its one of those old council tower blocks that were built in the 70s, you never see them anymore in that area of London,  apparently they had concerns about fire because it doesnt meet modern regulation.
The fire brigade have visited it lately for fire assessments.

Offline Redman78

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2017, 09:27:46 am »
Heartbreaking.   I fear the number of fatalities.  The private management company should be charged with manslaughter if the cladding is to blame.

Offline Trada

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2017, 09:28:42 am »
Not necessarily. Now, I think every residential building over 30m needs sprinklers but this would have been built much earlier. Sprinklers are very effective but cost to fit and maintain

Sky were saying that a Labour MP was on the radio earlier can't remember his name but hes a ex fireman and on health and safety committee and he wanted sprinklers at least in all council owned Tower blocks but the Tories were against the ideal.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 09:31:37 am by Trada »
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Offline The North Bank

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2017, 09:33:41 am »
Heartbreaking.   I fear the number of fatalities.  The private management company should be charged with manslaughter if the cladding is to blame.

The council too, they place residents in that block, under private management. Its the council's responsibility to ensure the accommodation meets fire and safety regulation, usually these private managements wont get the contract if they cant meet the requirements, but London councils often turn a blind eye because there simply isnt enough accommodation to meet the demand.

Offline Redman78

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2017, 09:36:20 am »
Watching the block still burning, thinking of those trapped inside.  Really sad.

Apparently there are a few blocks in the UK with this cladding used in the renovation, without sprinklers too!
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 09:47:38 am by Redman78 »

Offline The North Bank

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #60 on: June 14, 2017, 09:38:09 am »
It happened at the worst time too, 1 am, some people would have had no chance, at least during the day everyone is a little more alert. Horrible.

Offline puroresu_kid

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2017, 09:39:29 am »
This is crazy.  Couldn't think of much worse than being stuck in a building engulfed in flames.

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2017, 09:42:00 am »
That blog also mentions that a FOI request indicated that there was asbestos throughout.

That is not uncommon. I work in a hospital with asbestos in. Leaving it undisturbed is almost always the best policy.
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Offline the 92A

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2017, 09:46:59 am »
That is not uncommon. I work in a hospital with asbestos in. Leaving it undisturbed is almost always the best policy.
It is but it's not too good for the firefighters damping down in the next day or two
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Offline Trada

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2017, 09:48:04 am »
They are saying some fireman got up to the 19th and 20th floor blimey what bravery I thought that would be impossible.

But sadly I guess that means they couldn't get to the top 4 floors.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 10:03:43 am by Trada »
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #65 on: June 14, 2017, 09:55:54 am »
It does appear that the initial advise was for people to stay in their flats until the fire fighters get to them, according to accounts on radio.

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #66 on: June 14, 2017, 09:57:28 am »
You think such things can't happen in this day and age but that's truly terrifying. Just hoping there haven't been many fatalities.
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Offline Alonso_The_Assassin

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #67 on: June 14, 2017, 10:01:31 am »
The company that did the renovation work are trying to remove all online traces of their work this morning

Luckily enough the online cache of the website it still avalaible

http://web.archive.org/web/20170614055549/http://www.rydon.co.uk/what-we-do/refurbishment/case-studies/refurbishment-case-studies/grenfell-tower


Director of the company, Andrew Goldman, is being interviewed on ITV now. Piers Moron hammering him.

Heartbreaking scenes. Thoughts go out to all the families affected. Astonishing to think that something like this can happen in this day and age. No sprinklers in the building is truly mystifying...
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 10:03:38 am by Alonso_The_Assassin »

Offline the 92A

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2017, 10:18:04 am »
It does appear that the initial advise was for people to stay in their flats until the fire fighters get to them, according to accounts on radio.
Whether its the cladding or something else, fire spread like this is very unusual you would normally be very safe in your flat can't emphasise how unusual it is  for fire to spread like this. What normally kills people in fires is smoke inhalation that is why if you are in a concrete building the advice is often to stay in your flat. The fire safety advice is not what is unusual here, most concete high rise buildings would have similar advice it's the firespread in a concrete building and what caused that.There are flat fires in high rises all the time but they are contained unless something unusual has happened. Why has the fire not been contained within the flat will be the big question because it's completely unusual. The bigger questions need to be looking at the process of fire safety has been taken out of the hands of the fire service and deregulated and the massive cuts to the fire service of the last few years.
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Offline Yiannis

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2017, 10:33:11 am »
Truly harrowing. RIP to those that lost their life. I keep trying to put myself in the position of those unlucky people stuck in the building while engulfed in fire and I just....Must be beyond horrifying.

Put on Sky news and BBC World news and they constantly keep mentioning and showing eye witness' statements about people jumping from floors. Now I'm not saying don't say it, it's just the constant mention that bothers me. It's enough of a tragedy already.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2017, 10:33:31 am »
Whether its the cladding or something else, fire spread like this is very unusual you would normally be very safe in your flat can't emphasise how unusual it is  for fire to spread like this. What normally kills people in fires is smoke inhalation that is why if you are in a concrete building the advice is often to stay in your flat. The fire safety advice is not what is unusual here, most concete high rise buildings would have similar advice it's the firespread in a concrete building and what caused that.There are flat fires in high rises all the time but they are contained unless something unusual has happened. Why has the fire not been contained within the flat will be the big question because it's completely unusual. The bigger questions need to be looking at the process of fire safety has been taken out of the hands of the fire service and deregulated and the massive cuts to the fire service of the last few years.

The fire regulations have not been met, buildings dont burn in 8 minutes, even if they are made of timber.
Every flat in the building should have internal fire doors, at 60 minute rating
the outside door leading on to the corridor (external door) has a 90 minute rating, and there should be an external door at 5 meter intervals in the corridors outside the flats.
The cladding can not accelerate the fire, even if its made of plastic, it would be fire proofed to act as if its inert and doesnt burn.
Fire regulations alone mean the fire does not spread, even old buildings, get upgraded to meet the criteria.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 10:36:39 am by The North Bank »

Offline Salger

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #71 on: June 14, 2017, 10:36:00 am »
The fire regulations have not been met, buildings dont burn in 8 minutes, even if they are made of timber.
Every flat in the building should have internal fire doors, at 60 minute rating
the outside door leading on to the corridor (external door) has a 90 minute rating, and there should be an external door at 5 meter intervals in the corridors outside the flats.
The cladding can not accelerate the fire, even if its made of plastic, it would be fire proofed to act as if its inert and doesnt burn.
Fire regulations alone mean the fire does not spread, even old buildings, get upgraded to meet the criteria.

Was just about to post this re: fire doors, compartmentalisation etc...

Something has gone horrifically wrong to result in the ferocity and spread of this fire. In my mind, there is no way regulations could have been adhered to.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #72 on: June 14, 2017, 10:48:50 am »
The fire regulations have not been met, buildings dont burn in 8 minutes, even if they are made of timber.
Every flat in the building should have internal fire doors, at 60 minute rating
the outside door leading on to the corridor (external door) has a 90 minute rating, and there should be an external door at 5 meter intervals in the corridors outside the flats.
The cladding can not accelerate the fire, even if its made of plastic, it would be fire proofed to act as if its inert and doesnt burn.
Fire regulations alone mean the fire does not spread, even old buildings, get upgraded to meet the criteria.
I'm just pointing out that the normal advice in such buildings would be to stay in your flat unless directly effected by fire. It's the fire spread thats unusual and no one knows why that has happened yet. I'm no expert in fire safety but Fire regs don't mean old buildings get upgraded. Many things like sprinklers are covered not by fire regs but building regs.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #73 on: June 14, 2017, 10:49:56 am »
Maybe they changed there minds and put it back or it made them look guilty of hiding something.

Perhaps they realised that once the journos got hold of the cached site there was no point trying to hide anything.

30 minute firedoors are pretty much standard fare for most offices and and accommodation.  If the fire isn't on your floor, but there's heavy smoke outside, then it makes sense to stay put.  Some wet towels around the door frame should help keep the smoke out.

This though seems bizarre.  Looks like the fire spread up the outside of the building via the cladding?  You can't fireproof your windows.  A 30 minute fire door in this kind of environment isn't going to do jack shit.  Staying in your flat with a fire spreading that fast and that intensely does not seem a wise decision to me.  I'd throw a wet towel over my head and chance it, but then I don't have a family to worry about.  The place was literally a towering inferno.
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Offline The North Bank

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #74 on: June 14, 2017, 10:50:02 am »
Was just about to post this re: fire doors, compartmentalisation etc...

Something has gone horrifically wrong to result in the ferocity and spread of this fire. In my mind, there is no way regulations could have been adhered to.

Something hasnt gone horribly wrong, something already was horribly wrong. An accident waiting to happen, and eventually it did.

What usually happens, is that the fire brigade has to provide a license for a building to become inhabitable. What they normally do, if they inspect a building, is give an improvement notice, when they see things are not done right,  this usually means you have a certain amount of time to implement the changes they recommend, or they shut the building down.
Where it goes wrong, is in old buildings that werent built to modern fire regulations, its either impossible to upgrade them to standard, or very difficult, so the improvement notice has a very long time frame on it, in that time something disastrous could happen.
The other serious issue, is when the fire brigade issue an improvement notice rather than a prohibition notice (shut the building down immediately) when there is a serious fire risk, because there are hundreds of council residents who will become homeless overnight and under council pressure they can not just shut the building.
This is based on experience.

Offline The North Bank

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #75 on: June 14, 2017, 10:51:55 am »
I'm just pointing out that the normal advice in such buildings would be to stay in your flat unless directly effected by fire. It's the fire spread thats unusual and no one knows why that has happened yet. I'm no expert in fire safety but Fire regs don't mean old buildings get upgraded. Many things like sprinklers are covered not by fire regs but building regs.

Either way, councils cant place residents in the buildings until all the regs are met, building, fire , or health and safety.

I still wouldnt stay in my flat, my instinct would be to run, I cant put my life in someone elses hands, what if they were incompetent.

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #76 on: June 14, 2017, 10:55:46 am »
Lots of reports that the fire alarams didnt go off, in fact the fire brigade have released a statement that basic fire regulations that they expect in any residence did not exist in this building, they obviously based their rescue effort on the amount of time that fire doors give them to get to everyone, then found out that they only had seconds.
Awful situation to be in.

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #77 on: June 14, 2017, 11:01:56 am »
Absolutely awful news, hopefully most of the people managed to get out.

I'm expecting quite a few didn't though.

As has been mentioned, it's very unusual for a fire to spread so quickly like that through a solid concreate building.

Having read the article in the Guardian, it seems like it was an accident waiting to happen.

Health and Safety regs are there for good reason.

Offline Salger

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #78 on: June 14, 2017, 11:02:51 am »
Something hasnt gone horribly wrong, something already was horribly wrong. An accident waiting to happen, and eventually it did.

Sorry, that's what I meant. A likely catalogue of failures over time, which created conditions to allow such a catastrophic fire.

Seen reports of power surges nearly causing a fire in 2013 due to poor electrics, reports of fire alarm systems not being installed or going off.

What makes this even more scary is that you can guarantee there are dozens of blocks like this all over London and more across the country.   
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #79 on: June 14, 2017, 11:06:20 am »
Sorry, that's what I meant. A likely catalogue of failures over time, which created conditions to allow such a catastrophic fire.

Seen reports of power surges nearly causing a fire in 2013 due to poor electrics, reports of fire alarm systems not being installed or going off.

What makes this even more scary is that you can guarantee there are dozens of blocks like this all over London and more across the country.

Absolutely.

Its still crazy to think that a whole building could go up so quickly, even with poor fire standards.
Unless the source was a massive gas explosion.