Author Topic: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?  (Read 9838 times)

Offline markmywords

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #120 on: February 25, 2021, 08:31:01 pm »
Vardy averages 0.5 dribbles per game, Mo 1.2. Vardy makes 11 passes a game, Mo 36

Ok fair enough

But there are players with similar stats to Salah

Bernardo silva has 1.6 dribbles, but is fouled 0.8 time per games and has 53 passes per game

I see little evidence of anything remarkable statistically about Salah and his treatment

I suspect our players have bought into this and feel hardly done by on the pitch, so when refs make certain decisions, heads drop. Klopp wants us to be mentality monsters, mentality monsters aren't looking for excuses, conspiracies and vendettas IMO

Offline Legs

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #121 on: February 25, 2021, 08:45:54 pm »
I'm tempted to say that referees are hurting us because we've shown too much self-pity. Mobs are famous for attacking individuals who plead with them, or who beg for mercy. It's almost as if the mob's sense of common humanity (the only thing that might restrain them) is undermined by a show of humanity ("please don't hurt me"). It's the supreme paradox. The "please don't hurt" somehow acts as a goad. You only have to look at the opening post to see why it might provoke such feelings. The self-pity in the question makes you want to put the boot in!

But, on reflection, I'm not sure it can explain what is going on with referees and Liverpool. I think we have come in for some rough treatment this season, but I don't believe the players and the coach have shown any self-pity.

However, they haven't been as snarly as they might have been. It was very noticeable in the Goodison derby how our players seemed to shrug their shoulders at all the bad decisions and the dangerous tackles. And that has continued. Imagine Roy Keane captaining a team in those circumstances. Mo Salah doesn't have any self-pity in him (I don't think) but he's so....happy...all the time. I'm sure that one of the reasons that refs let him get perpetually fouled is that he doesn't seem to hold a grudge. Sadio too. 

On top of that we've missed the Anfield crowd. Some of the decisions that have gone against us at Anfield would never have been made if the fans had been in. No ref enjoys a toxic Anfield and no ref can keep on resisting massed cries of 'penalty' at the Kop end of the ground. We get some unbelievable decisions going our way when the ground is full. We've missed that.

 

I agree with most of what you are saying and Keane was competitive but we'll never know what he would be like in a season of BCD games it takes its toll on everyone.

I mean Pep looks pissed off and he is on a monster run.

It started when we rightly complained after the derby they ALL stuck together and as soon as Southampton complained correctly to get two reds over turned they have had some horrific decisions too.

I said this from the very begining the injuries are a major issue but it is 100% our crowd that we miss, people say its the same for everyone...well yes it is with no fans but certain teams fans can be toxic/demanding if results slide hello West Ham Villa Everton !

Offline markmywords

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #122 on: February 25, 2021, 08:48:14 pm »
He also touches the ball less than every single other player in the Leicester team and is perennially offside - top 3 in the division. I get you’re saying this because he was highlighted as a diver in a previous post, but it’s not really absolving the situation of it’s current absurdity, as much as we’d prefer to see the logic in this situation.

Just in case you wanted to see, this link will take you to the foul stats for the Premier League - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/fouls - you may notice Mo Salah is the 195th most fouled footballer in the division. I don’t think I need to relay the same set of statistics out that show why that is patently absurd.

I suppose, ultimately, I just cannot understand the need to defend the anti-ref and bias proving stance to our own fans. You’ve seen the games, you yourselves can go and pull all the stats discussed in this thread. Literal statistical proof of something extremely odd. So what are we saying, that there’s a problem here or that we are just experiencing the biggest statistical anomaly relating to refereeing decisions in the history of 21st Century European Football?

INteresting analysis

I agree there is a "skill" to this that players can "work on" people like Son, aubameyang have even less fouls than Salah

 I agree there is bad referring, not sure it's worse than last year though( he got 17 fouls last yr, vs 12 from this),  most importantly so we can still thrive in these times,

Overall I think too much thinking along this line can create a resignation and direct too much energy in the wrong direction



Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #123 on: February 25, 2021, 08:53:04 pm »
Can we rename it to 'Why are refs so shite'?

If they were consistently shite then no one would ever care.
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Offline Fromola

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #124 on: February 25, 2021, 09:05:32 pm »
Vardy (0.6) gets less fouls per game than salah (0.7)

Vardy barely touches the ball. He waits for his moment.
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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #125 on: February 25, 2021, 09:06:57 pm »
I guess the other question is "do you always think the refs are against us". For those who do think this, or who think refs always favour Manchester United, it might be helpful if you put a little asterisk next to your post. Then we'll know where you're coming from.
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Offline Fromola

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #126 on: February 25, 2021, 09:07:50 pm »
Salah has a reputation for diving and so it feeds into him not getting free kicks.

On Saturday, Carragher was constantly on about Kabak being booked twice in two games, that's where that kind of thing starts, people listen to it, pick up on it and it snowballs. Wouldn't be surprised if that one sticks as well.

This is what annoys me about Carragher as a pundit. I've said all season we really need a high profile pundit or media figure going to bat for us. Carragher would be the obvious choice in terms of profile. Instead he's counter productive and feeds into these narratives.

The bookings Kabak got where ludicrous. Nothing challenges.
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Offline Fromola

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #127 on: February 25, 2021, 09:10:39 pm »
On top of that we've missed the Anfield crowd. Some of the decisions that have gone against us at Anfield would never have been made if the fans had been in. No ref enjoys a toxic Anfield and no ref can keep on resisting massed cries of 'penalty' at the Kop end of the ground. We get some unbelievable decisions going our way when the ground is full. We've missed that.

I agree with this, but how does this explain the amount of away games we've been screwed in and without a hostile away crowd?

Anfield would have been hostile as fuck at times in response to the decisions against us and it would have helped gee the players up.

I guess the other question is "do you always think the refs are against us". For those who do think this, or who think refs always favour Manchester United, it might be helpful if you put a little asterisk next to your post. Then we'll know where you're coming from.

Collectively, no. Never before this season.

I always expect certain refs to screw us though. Taylor/Atkinson for example. Now I just expect them all to screw us over.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2021, 09:13:54 pm by Fromola »
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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #128 on: February 25, 2021, 09:13:15 pm »
I guess the other question is "do you always think the refs are against us". For those who do think this, or who think refs always favour Manchester United, it might be helpful if you put a little asterisk next to your post. Then we'll know where you're coming from.

I judge each decision on its merits or otherwise.

I see the likes of Grealish or Martial or Rashford barely touched, launching themselves Beckham-Like into a trajectory of agony and getting a decision.

Then I see the likes of Salah or Mane barely touched and going down less dramatically

And I see some players automatically given fouls no matter how soft the contact and I see other players never given fouls no matter of soft the contact.

You even see different decisions in the same game. You see some decisions pored over for minutes while others that are just as misty are done in seconds.
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Offline redgriffin73

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #129 on: February 25, 2021, 09:27:08 pm »


On top of that we've missed the Anfield crowd. Some of the decisions that have gone against us at Anfield would never have been made if the fans had been in. No ref enjoys a toxic Anfield and no ref can keep on resisting massed cries of 'penalty' at the Kop end of the ground. We get some unbelievable decisions going our way when the ground is full. We've missed that.

 

I'm not sure our penalty record has Anfield has been that great in recent years to be honest. Sometimes you feel like the ref goes the opposite way to prove he's not swayed by the Kop.
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Offline free_at_last

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #130 on: February 25, 2021, 09:33:45 pm »
One big question, how does a man who grew up in Wythenshawe, in a family of Manchester United season ticket holders, being constantly reminded of "Those Scouse c*nts" (I got abuse post heart op for walking through Wythenshawe hospital in a pair of LFC shorts, fucking big raw cut down the centre of my chest, they really fucking hate us over there), grow up with 0% bias against us and be allowed to referee our games?
Even worse - why does he referee us MORE THAN ANY OTHER TEAM. It's obvious that he despises us and I can actually understand it with him coming from a manc cauldron but how do we allow it to happen?

Offline rob1966

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #131 on: February 25, 2021, 09:35:20 pm »

I'm not sure our penalty record has Anfield has been that great in recent years to be honest. Sometimes you feel like the ref goes the opposite way to prove he's not swayed by the Kop.

According to football365 back in January, we'd had 30 penalties in 5 and a half years, the Mancs 42 and Leicester 49 !!
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Offline RobinHood

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #132 on: February 25, 2021, 09:41:53 pm »
Also on a slightly wider note it does seem like UK football in general is starting to pay the price for the way referees are treated in this country.

I saw a news article recently that 21% of ALL referees quit the game in 2019 (over 6,500) which will catch up with you eventually as fewer and fewer quality officials come through the ranks into the professional game. If there isn't anyone better coming through you'll always be stuck with people like David Coote.

The issue of grassroots abuse is another point but if we want world class officials in the future then you can't be losing 20% of them every year.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #133 on: February 25, 2021, 09:49:12 pm »
Its not just the referees that are ruining the game for us Liverpool fans and the Club.

It's Women, Americans, the Irish, Cockneys, most Jocks and that lot from Australia, to name but a few - Its they that are making the refs hate us - that's the problem, not the club, them.
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Offline Andy82lfc

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #134 on: February 25, 2021, 09:50:25 pm »
Still absolutely zero credible arguments to why since Coote had his arse handed to him by the club and fans we have had all of these decisions against us as proven in the stats. All you get is diversions onto other points that no one is really that arsed about.

For anyone against the argument can you explain the reasoning why Coote and his mates have suddenly decided to consistently give us bad decisions all season since the derby and hardly anything levelling out. Is the fact that it is all a giant coincidence these ‘bad’ ref decisions are happening to us?

The consistent bad decisions are happening that has been shown, the argument is why. Is there anyone against the fact they are imparting bias that can give an argument as I’m guessing all anyone can come up with is that it’s a coincidence? which of course doesn’t hold much weight.

On another note, doesn’t the fact that Coote since the derby still has not officiated in any way shape or form in one of our matches scream volumes?? What are they ‘protecting’ him from? Has there ever been any precedent for a ref making an ‘error’ then him being pulled from officiating that team for so long? Surely that in itself opens many questions. If there isn’t an issue why pull him for so long?

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #135 on: February 25, 2021, 11:44:00 pm »
Never go full blue moon

Basically everything listed in that OP is exactly the same stuff as what city fans spent last year alleging and we all rightly mocked them for.

Just to pick a few of them out- the media. Let's be fair here due to our standing in the game the media is absolutely full of Liverpool supporters and former players. Fans of every other club in the country moan endlessly about that fact. Of course, there's also plenty of United influence which can balance it out but on TV and in the papers we are represented probably more than any other club. Who have City got? Paulo Wanchope have a column in the mirror I don't know about?

Complaining about the treatment Salah and Mane get is to ignore the simple truth that the pair of them do flop down very easily and neither are particularly good at masking it. It's part of the game, truthfully I'd rather they got better at it than just cutting it out altogether because we might win a few more penalties that way. I don't know why it's considered so wrong to admit as much because everybody else in the world can see it 3 or 4 times a game.

The Super League stuff can surely be batted away by the fact that we aren't the only ones pushing for it. United, City, Arsenal, whoever else would surely be equally targeted.

As for the Manchester Mafia, well, that's the most Bluemoon shout of them all. We were "the cartel" to them last season and now it's their turn to be the "mafia". What standing do Manchester City have in the game? People are either completely indifferent or in the case of the Premier League and UEFA considered a threat.

It's been a stinker of a season all round. Everton away was a disgraceful refereeing performance. We've had a few shit calls. But the story isn't a conspiracy against Liverpool, the story is of how utterly awful the refereeing in this country is. So many teams can point to games where they've been completely robbed by ridiculous VAR decisions this season, and we are just one of them.

It's not our year lads. Everything's gone against us. Don't look for answers where there aren't any. If we were playing at the level of last year there'd be no conversation.
Yet plenty of us were having the conversation earlier in the season when we were top of the league and Abu Dhabi were miles behind.
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Offline Son of Spion

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #136 on: February 25, 2021, 11:48:28 pm »
Also on a slightly wider note it does seem like UK football in general is starting to pay the price for the way referees are treated in this country.

I saw a news article recently that 21% of ALL referees quit the game in 2019 (over 6,500) which will catch up with you eventually as fewer and fewer quality officials come through the ranks into the professional game. If there isn't anyone better coming through you'll always be stuck with people like David Coote.

The issue of grassroots abuse is another point but if we want world class officials in the future then you can't be losing 20% of them every year.
Well, I wouldn't want to be a referee for all the tea in China.

In the lower leagues you run the risk of getting your face kicked in by players and their families or mates. In the top flight we've seen them bullied and hounded til they are ragged by the likes of Ferguson's United sides.

None of that excuses the ones in the top flight from being utterly useless, of course.

It's not exactly a career to aspire to given the hate and abuse you risk just by turning up with your whistle.
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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #137 on: February 26, 2021, 12:16:11 am »
This pretty much nails it.

The refs as a group being poor at their job is the main reason. The application of VAR, which in essence gives poor referees more rope to hang themselves with, has amplified this. On occasions we've also been on the wrong side of the changing interpretation of rules during the season. What was deemed handball for a few weeks wasn't a few weeks later. The interpretation of a clear and obvious error has changed dramatically during the season. Other team have fallen foul or benefited from this too.

There are definitely some referees with internal bias against us. Or at least that's how it feels. But ask any group of supporters and they'll name a handful of referees they feel similar about. It's exactly the same when people talk about media bias. Every set of fans thinks the media and individuals in the media are biased against them. I don't like to reference Twitter but I saw a question posed about who the darlings of the British media where. The most prevalent answers from supporters of loads of teams were Liverpool and Leeds. So whilst we think the media is against us. Lots of other fans think the opposite. It's exactly the same with referees but we only take notice of the instances when it goes against us (which there's been a higher amount than usual this season).

Personally i do think poor refereeing has impacted our season. But it's more minor than the injuries and the knock on effects that's had in terms of personnel available, tiredness, loss of form. Like I said on a thread about FSG, people want to look for a single reason or an area to point blame when things go wrong. The referees have played some small part in our season so far. So has not buying Ben Davies or Ozan Kabak on 1st January. Personally I think it's a multitude of reasons that have got us to this point. A lot of them down to bad luck and circumstance. Maybe more minor are refs and some of the internal decisions we've made. It doesn't make it easier for people who want to point a finger of blame for our struggles this season but it's probably closer to the truth than there is a conspiracy between referees to derail our season. Just my opinion of course.
Wow  :o  That's actually bizarre.

Leeds have been vilified and roundly hated in this country for as long as I can remember. I don't recall them ever being darlings of the media. Their fanbase has been run down by pretty much everyone for decades too. The most positive stuff I've heard about them in more recent times is that they can play attractive, if kamikaze, football. Other than that; nothing.

How anyone can say that Liverpool are media darlings is just baffling. The City, the Club and the supporters have been routinely slaughtered from all corners for many decades. We get told by all and sundry that we are the most hated club in England. Even the majority of our ex players in the media make a living out of being derogative towards us.

I'd agree that we do have a lot of ex players in the media, but that's because we were so incredibly successful. Since United's 90s heyday, lots of their ex players have come into the media too. The size of the presence is simply related to the success of those players and their old clubs.

The only genuine media darling club in this country are Man United. The proof of that particular pudding was the 70s and 80s when they were, at times, abject, and at best a plucky cup side. Despite that, and despite the fact that Liverpool and, to a lesser extent, Everton, dominated at home and abroad, but it was United who hogged the headlines from a sycophantic media based in Manchester and London while Liverpool and Everton were damned with faint praise. That deeply entrenched media bias has never really gone away.

The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #138 on: February 26, 2021, 12:57:12 am »
Wow  :o  That's actually bizarre.

Leeds have been vilified and roundly hated in this country for as long as I can remember. I don't recall them ever being darlings of the media. Their fanbase has been run down by pretty much everyone for decades too. The most positive stuff I've heard about them in more recent times is that they can play attractive, if kamikaze, football. Other than that; nothing.

How anyone can say that Liverpool are media darlings is just baffling. The City, the Club and the supporters have been routinely slaughtered from all corners for many decades. We get told by all and sundry that we are the most hated club in England. Even the majority of our ex players in the media make a living out of being derogative towards us.

I'd agree that we do have a lot of ex players in the media, but that's because we were so incredibly successful. Since United's 90s heyday, lots of their ex players have come into the media too. The size of the presence is simply related to the success of those players and their old clubs.

The only genuine media darling club in this country are Man United. The proof of that particular pudding was the 70s and 80s when they were, at times, abject, and at best a plucky cup side. Despite that, and despite the fact that Liverpool and, to a lesser extent, Everton, dominated at home and abroad, but it was United who hogged the headlines from a sycophantic media based in Manchester and London while Liverpool and Everton were damned with faint praise. That deeply entrenched media bias has never really gone away.



Nailed it mate
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Offline decosabute

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #139 on: February 26, 2021, 06:52:07 am »
Yet plenty of us were having the conversation earlier in the season when we were top of the league and Abu Dhabi were miles behind.

I'd argue many were saying it last season too, even while we were winning 26 of the first 27. It was nothing compared to the never-ending shitshow of this season, but we had loads go against us last year (too many to list, but there are at least nine good examples) and only a couple (Chelsea away, Wolves home, Palace away) that helped us out. The refereeing and VAR were screwing us then, but because we were the best team in the world, we kept overcoming them and winning anyway, so the bad decisions against us were forgotten. Hence bellend opposition fans on the internet only remembering the few things that went for us and branding us LiVARpool.

Offline Fromola

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #140 on: February 26, 2021, 07:35:56 am »
I'd argue many were saying it last season too, even while we were winning 26 of the first 27. It was nothing compared to the never-ending shitshow of this season, but we had loads go against us last year (too many to list, but there are at least nine good examples) and only a couple (Chelsea away, Wolves home, Palace away) that helped us out. The refereeing and VAR were screwing us then, but because we were the best team in the world, we kept overcoming them and winning anyway, so the bad decisions against us were forgotten. Hence bellend opposition fans on the internet only remembering the few things that went for us and branding us LiVARpool.

Last season we had some shockers with refs but it was mainly restricted to when we would have a Martin Atkinson or Anthony Taylor or Coote refereeing..

The difference this season, as outlined in the title, is it's ALL of them. It's systemic.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #141 on: February 26, 2021, 08:36:08 am »
Don't look for answers where there aren't any. If we were playing at the level of last year there'd be no conversation.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #142 on: February 26, 2021, 08:42:53 am »
Daily Fail taking Ref side? : Premier League referees are paying for their mistakes, with yearly performance-related bonuses of up to £50,000 taking a hit with each error.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #143 on: February 26, 2021, 09:23:26 am »
I'm also of the opinion that most pundits try to appear as unbiased as possible, and having so many ex-reds on TV is damaging to us when we need somebody to call this shit out. Similarly, I get that a lot of our fanbase are against taking a stance against referees in fear of being branded ''always the victims'', but these statistics take all bias out of the question.

Incredible finds in the statistics prove in black and white what we have all been seeing all season. Maybe if somebody more talented than me could set up a nice graphic of the most pertinent points, it might go viral and be picked up by mainstream media. Journalists and pundits follow the narrative and are broadly reveling in the narrative surrounding Liverpool, and would have no reason to seek out such statistics. But as these shocking statistical anomalies leave no room for bias, I do not know how anyone could see this and not begin to ask questions.

With the most digestible graphics plastered all over social media, maybe it'd be flagged in the mainstream and begin to change narrative. Imagine if Sky Sports didn't paint Salah as the devil. How many more games would we have won this season if Salah was treated ''averagely'' by referees?

Not sure what else we could do as a fanbase to help turn this around. It's not like we can make our thoughts heard in the ground. I'm bored shitless of how it's going right now.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #144 on: February 26, 2021, 09:32:04 am »
Also on a slightly wider note it does seem like UK football in general is starting to pay the price for the way referees are treated in this country.

I saw a news article recently that 21% of ALL referees quit the game in 2019 (over 6,500) which will catch up with you eventually as fewer and fewer quality officials come through the ranks into the professional game. If there isn't anyone better coming through you'll always be stuck with people like David Coote.

The issue of grassroots abuse is another point but if we want world class officials in the future then you can't be losing 20% of them every year.

As a sidenote, it is the consistent shite hurled at referees the last few decades, coupled with the constant need to dredge up referee-inspired ´talking points´ by television pundits, (and all of this enabled by slow-motion replays in which every single decision can be made to look debatable) that has landed us with the absolute shambles that is VAR in the first place. In fact for some insane reason people were scrambling over each other to demand that slow motion replays should dictate every decision.

Rather then just accepting before that some decisions will go for you and others against you, as part of the game, as fans did for the preceding century - we have instead ended up with this very sorry state of affairs.


« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 09:36:10 am by Indomitable_Carp »

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #145 on: February 26, 2021, 09:48:06 am »
I'm also of the opinion that most pundits try to appear as unbiased as possible, and having so many ex-reds on TV is damaging to us when we need somebody to call this shit out. Similarly, I get that a lot of our fanbase are against taking a stance against referees in fear of being branded ''always the victims'', but these statistics take all bias out of the question.

Incredible finds in the statistics prove in black and white what we have all been seeing all season. Maybe if somebody more talented than me could set up a nice graphic of the most pertinent points, it might go viral and be picked up by mainstream media. Journalists and pundits follow the narrative and are broadly reveling in the narrative surrounding Liverpool, and would have no reason to seek out such statistics. But as these shocking statistical anomalies leave no room for bias, I do not know how anyone could see this and not begin to ask questions.

With the most digestible graphics plastered all over social media, maybe it'd be flagged in the mainstream and begin to change narrative. Imagine if Sky Sports didn't paint Salah as the devil. How many more games would we have won this season if Salah was treated ''averagely'' by referees?

Not sure what else we could do as a fanbase to help turn this around. It's not like we can make our thoughts heard in the ground. I'm bored shitless of how it's going right now.
One thing I do know is that we have suffered these biased referee performances for years to a lesser degree(I've been ranting about Taylor for years).
 Obviously Anfield always gets behind the team but at the same time is the picture of politeness with regards to refs who give us a shit deal or teams who kick us up in the air. I'm not sure why that is but a few decades ago we wouldn't have stood for it. There has been a gentrification of the crowd and maybe they don't even notice a refs performance(the number of people on this site who can't see what's happening is a case in point).
 We will have fans back in the medium term. These gobshites have had their fun while the fans have been away and may cost us a champions league place to derail us for a few seasons. When the fans are back we need to get into these fuckers(obviously I'm not advocating violence).
I've never once heard "You Manc Bastard" sung at Anthony Taylor even though we sit there expecting him to screw us - no wonder they go about their business with impugnity and fake outrage and probably laugh about it on their boys only trips abroad.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #146 on: February 26, 2021, 09:50:54 am »
Wow  :o  That's actually bizarre.

Leeds have been vilified and roundly hated in this country for as long as I can remember. I don't recall them ever being darlings of the media. Their fanbase has been run down by pretty much everyone for decades too. The most positive stuff I've heard about them in more recent times is that they can play attractive, if kamikaze, football. Other than that; nothing.

How anyone can say that Liverpool are media darlings is just baffling. The City, the Club and the supporters have been routinely slaughtered from all corners for many decades. We get told by all and sundry that we are the most hated club in England. Even the majority of our ex players in the media make a living out of being derogative towards us.

I'd agree that we do have a lot of ex players in the media, but that's because we were so incredibly successful. Since United's 90s heyday, lots of their ex players have come into the media too. The size of the presence is simply related to the success of those players and their old clubs.

The only genuine media darling club in this country are Man United. The proof of that particular pudding was the 70s and 80s when they were, at times, abject, and at best a plucky cup side. Despite that, and despite the fact that Liverpool and, to a lesser extent, Everton, dominated at home and abroad, but it was United who hogged the headlines from a sycophantic media based in Manchester and London while Liverpool and Everton were damned with faint praise. That deeply entrenched media bias has never really gone away.

It shows the tiny attention spans of your average fan that responds to online polls.

Who won the Premier League last year? Liverpool... for the first time in 30 years.
Who won the Championship and returned to the Premier League for the first time in donkeys years? Leeds United.

Both of those events were newsworthy purely for how long it had been, not necessarily because it was Liverpool and Leeds.  So who got the headlines last summer?  Pretty obvious isn’t it.  If it had been Spurs (snigger) and Nottingham Forest then they would have got the headlines, the odd BBC/Sky special and a documentary or two would have been made about them and the same morons would now be calling those clubs “media darlings.”

Film makers don’t tend to make documentaries called “another mediocre mid-table finish in a series of unremarkable seasons from club that’s not won anything for a long time” featuring the players and managers that contributed nothing but the bare minimum, and absolutely nothing of note.  Even fans of that club would be bored after 5 minutes.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #147 on: February 26, 2021, 09:55:15 am »
As a sidenote, it is the consistent shite hurled at referees the last few decades, coupled with the constant need to dredge up referee-inspired ´talking points´ by television pundits, that has landed us with the absolute shambles that is VAR in the first place.

Rather then just accepting before that some decisions will go for you and others against you, as part of the game, as fans did for the preceding century - we have instead ended up with this very sorry state of affairs.

Its just such utter nonsense that 'fans and pundits criticising referees' is the reason why the standard is so shit now and why VAR is being used.

VAR is here because the times change. Every other sport uses technology, football has tried to catch up and there are certain groups who have seen this as a criticism rather than a tool to actually help them and make their job easier. I watched a Leicester Tigers/Wasps game the other weekend and technology was used perfectly. The ref was mic'd, the person in control of the technology was mic'd, we could hear the conversation between them, understand the decision making process as we could see the images on the screen and the correct decision was reached every time. It didnt disrupt any sort of flow to the game. I watched the India/England game and again, same thing. Except there, the 3rd umpire was fucking shit. Nothing to do with the tech. He didnt justify his decisions and reached his decisions too quickly. The reason VAR is a shambles is solely because of the officials. The technology itself is pretty basic stuff.

In football there is this bizarre idea that referees need protecting. They dont. The problem, and I can only speak for this countries referees in the PL, is there is an astounding arrogance. They dont have conversations with players, and if players try to have conversations with them about decisions they are shooed away in a 'you may not converse with me' manner. You watch someone like Mike Dean or Kevin Friend and the over-riding feeling is 'I'm king here, I'm the most important man on this pitch, you're not allowed to question me and if you do I'll book you'. They come across like they are untouchable. And that absolutely connects with the lack of accountability they face. They make a mistake, nothing happens. They're back refereeing next weekend. Nothing happens, nothing changes. There is absolutely no drive to improve the standard. There's a constant desire to blame someone else, and at the moment its VAR. Blame the technology. Blame the rules. They've made it too hard for us, let us just referee again to our usual shit standard.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #148 on: February 26, 2021, 10:11:19 am »
It's also the type of character the profession attracts. You have to be very thick skinned to be a professional referee. The ones that aren't join the statistics that walk away.

Also the school prefect/authoritative type. The sporting equivalent of traffic wardens. Or became a ref because they were never actually any good at sport.

At the same time it's a shit job and someone has to do it, but these Premier League referees aren't your normal members of society. A lot of them crave publicity and do their best to stay in the public eye when they stop. They're arrogant and think they're beyond reproach.

And of course they all stick together. Quite literally in Asian brothels.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #149 on: February 26, 2021, 10:19:23 am »
Its just such utter nonsense that 'fans and pundits criticising referees' is the reason why the standard is so shit now and why VAR is being used.

VAR is here because the times change. Every other sport uses technology, football has tried to catch up and there are certain groups who have seen this as a criticism rather than a tool to actually help them and make their job easier. I watched a Leicester Tigers/Wasps game the other weekend and technology was used perfectly. The ref was mic'd, the person in control of the technology was mic'd, we could hear the conversation between them, understand the decision making process as we could see the images on the screen and the correct decision was reached every time. It didnt disrupt any sort of flow to the game. I watched the India/England game and again, same thing. Except there, the 3rd umpire was fucking shit. Nothing to do with the tech. He didnt justify his decisions and reached his decisions too quickly. The reason VAR is a shambles is solely because of the officials. The technology itself is pretty basic stuff.

In football there is this bizarre idea that referees need protecting. They dont. The problem, and I can only speak for this countries referees in the PL, is there is an astounding arrogance. They dont have conversations with players, and if players try to have conversations with them about decisions they are shooed away in a 'you may not converse with me' manner. You watch someone like Mike Dean or Kevin Friend and the over-riding feeling is 'I'm king here, I'm the most important man on this pitch, you're not allowed to question me and if you do I'll book you'. They come across like they are untouchable. And that absolutely connects with the lack of accountability they face. They make a mistake, nothing happens. They're back refereeing next weekend. Nothing happens, nothing changes. There is absolutely no drive to improve the standard. There's a constant desire to blame someone else, and at the moment its VAR. Blame the technology. Blame the rules. They've made it too hard for us, let us just referee again to our usual shit standard.

I don´t think it is an either/or scenario.

I wasn´t watching football in the 60s, 70s and 80s, so I don´t know how the standard of refereeing differed. What I do know is that was a time before most games were televised, and importantly, before every televised decision could be watched from multiple angles in super slow motion.

Now you can make every single decision look debatable. And that is what we have seen the last 30 years. Constant debates on refereeing, when I can´t help but think in years gone by some of these decisions would not have even warranted a single post-match comment, except from perhaps a few people in the stadium close enough to see it properly, whereas for the last 30 years it has been some game changing moment in which it is not just a talking point, but the talking point.

Now perhaps the standards of refereeing have dipped. I am not in argument that what we are currently witnessing is a massive dip in refereeing standards. But is it any surprise that such an Old Boys, us-against-the-world culture has developed amongst referees (which you and others have convincingly argued has led to the dip in standards) in the face of such unrelenting scrutiny for every match and every decision, even in matches where referees have had generally good performances barring perhaps one incorrect decision, which has suddenly been plastered all over the TV, newspapers and internet?

Other sports use technology, sure. But other sports have rule books twice the size of that in football. In cricket, and indeed any bat-and-ball sport, there is very clear lines that can and can´t be crossed. And they are in their very nature stop and start sports. Even rugby and American Football, while there remains an element of subjectivity, they are constantly chopping and changing rules (to an extent that is increasingly heavily criticised by fans and pundits, and in the case of American football, has actually led to break away leagues seeking a more back-to-basics approach), and the nature of the sport still allows for those stop-and-start periods for these decisions to be made.

The beauty of football has always been its perfect imperfection. It is also the most free flowing sport out there except perhaps basketball. It is the reason it is far and away the most popular sport on earth, with no other sport coming even remotely close. In fact there is parts of the world in which footballing cultures have sprung about on the basis that referees can and should be gamed (as much as we hate it here). Footballs imperfections allow that kind of adaptability. Why do we even need to try and imitate other far less popular and far less successful sports, that most people consider more boring to watch - especially at the expense of these things that make this sport popular in the first place?

All that said, it has already happened and there is probably no going back. But I think it is absolutely the case that fans, pundits and the media have helped to dig their own grave. For me growing up there was never any football chat more boring, and yet more popular, then people moaning about referees. And now this.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 10:23:08 am by Indomitable_Carp »

Offline mikeb58

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #150 on: February 26, 2021, 10:28:00 am »
Simple human nature in my opinion, we rightfully have a dig at Coote and his 'work mates' pay us back and stick together whenever they can. The easiest way to do this and just as important the least obvious, is to give us little or no 50/50 decisions,especially decisive, game changing ones.

The Refs are not daft, they will pick on our 'easy targets' whenever possible, knowing they will be more likely backed up by a panel of thick, gullible pundits. To make it less obvious, we will occasionally get something in our favour, usually when a game is done and dusted either way,this will even up the stats a little!

The problem is, there is fuck all we can do about it in English footy, thankfully it's a more level playing field in European football, at least if Refs are shite in the CL they are equally as bad for both teams.

 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 10:29:35 am by mikeb58 »
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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #151 on: February 26, 2021, 10:49:19 am »

And of course they all stick together. Quite literally in Asian brothels.

the fact is they are obviously good mates .If someone had a go at  one of your mates you would all stick together to get them back .
we had a go at coote  - its human nature they will get back at us.

southampton called them out a few weeks ago and have had no end of decisions go against them since.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #152 on: February 26, 2021, 11:01:57 am »
the fact is they are obviously good mates .If someone had a go at  one of your mates you would all stick together to get them back .
we had a go at coote  - its human nature they will get back at us.

southampton called them out a few weeks ago and have had no end of decisions go against them since.
Which just goes to show how unprofessional they are. This isn't the urban jungle -  they are supposed to be highly skilled professionals.

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #153 on: February 26, 2021, 11:02:00 am »
the fact is they are obviously good mates .If someone had a go at  one of your mates you would all stick together to get them back .
we had a go at coote  - its human nature they will get back at us.

southampton called them out a few weeks ago and have had no end of decisions go against them since.
But all that would suggest is that the refereeing clique are petty, bitter, spiteful and highly unprofessional. If we all take our grudges into work and allow them to dictate our level of performance, we'd be sacked.

We are talking about adults here, not spiteful children who spit the dummy then stomp their feet in anger.
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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #154 on: February 26, 2021, 11:05:34 am »
Snip


I have been watching football since the early 70's and while there was the chant of "whos the bastard in the black" at every ground, this lot are honestly the worst I've seen. You have to remember these are full time pros on high wages, the refs I grew up with had jobs outside of football.

There were right bastards, Clive Thomas wasn't liked, not just by bitters, but also by Nations. I hated Pat Partridge, mainly for the 1978 League Cup Final replay when he disallowed a Terry McDermott goal for handball when it clearly hit the Umbro badge on his chest and gave Forest a penalty for a foul by Thommo that was clearly outside the box, but most of the refs just did the best they could. I honestly don't ever remember refs being so biased against us, never mind biased for us. I get what West Ham Paul said the other day about other clubs not getting decisions at places like Anfield, but in the 70's and 80's it was wave after wave of Liverpool attacks, I was a decent keeper, so I used to watch Clem a lot and remember him spending long periods exercising along the 18 yard line while the ball was down the Anny Road end for ages and ages.
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Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #155 on: February 26, 2021, 11:21:17 am »
I have been watching football since the early 70's and while there was the chant of "whos the bastard in the black" at every ground, this lot are honestly the worst I've seen. You have to remember these are full time pros on high wages, the refs I grew up with had jobs outside of football.

There were right bastards, Clive Thomas wasn't liked, not just by bitters, but also by Nations. I hated Pat Partridge, mainly for the 1978 League Cup Final replay when he disallowed a Terry McDermott goal for handball when it clearly hit the Umbro badge on his chest and gave Forest a penalty for a foul by Thommo that was clearly outside the box, but most of the refs just did the best they could. I honestly don't ever remember refs being so biased against us, never mind biased for us. I get what West Ham Paul said the other day about other clubs not getting decisions at places like Anfield, but in the 70's and 80's it was wave after wave of Liverpool attacks, I was a decent keeper, so I used to watch Clem a lot and remember him spending long periods exercising along the 18 yard line while the ball was down the Anny Road end for ages and ages.

It is a good point about professionalism making it more unacceptable. And I think most would agree that the current crop of referees are atrocious. But ultimately the kind of unrelenting referee chat that I am talking about has been around basically since the Premier League era. It has been 30 years leading up to this point. How did the referees of the 70s compare to the referees here in, say, the 90s and 00s? Because this current crop, to my memory, are a couple of levels below even that of 10 years ago.

There is also the fact that the game itself has changed. It was easier to let a game flow back in the 70s and 80s, because the game was rougher, whereas now there are players throwing themselves to the ground left right and centre at the slightest touch. I am not getting into the rights and wrongs of players doing that, because it is clearly also a reaction to the way in which things are officiated (you now need to go to ground to prove you have been touched). But that in itself also makes it an even harder and more subjective a sport to referee for as long as it remains a contact sport. There is no other sport to my mind in which it is so acceptable to try and cheat referees in this way.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 11:25:23 am by Indomitable_Carp »

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #156 on: February 26, 2021, 11:24:55 am »
I don´t think it is an either/or scenario.

I wasn´t watching football in the 60s, 70s and 80s, so I don´t know how the standard of refereeing differed. What I do know is that was a time before most games were televised, and importantly, before every televised decision could be watched from multiple angles in super slow motion.

Now you can make every single decision look debatable. And that is what we have seen the last 30 years. Constant debates on refereeing, when I can´t help but think in years gone by some of these decisions would not have even warranted a single post-match comment, except from perhaps a few people in the stadium close enough to see it properly, whereas for the last 30 years it has been some game changing moment in which it is not just a talking point, but the talking point.

Now perhaps the standards of refereeing have dipped. I am not in argument that what we are currently witnessing is a massive dip in refereeing standards. But is it any surprise that such an Old Boys, us-against-the-world culture has developed amongst referees (which you and others have convincingly argued has led to the dip in standards) in the face of such unrelenting scrutiny for every match and every decision, even in matches where referees have had generally good performances barring perhaps one incorrect decision, which has suddenly been plastered all over the TV, newspapers and internet?

Other sports use technology, sure. But other sports have rule books twice the size of that in football. In cricket, and indeed any bat-and-ball sport, there is very clear lines that can and can´t be crossed. And they are in their very nature stop and start sports. Even rugby and American Football, while there remains an element of subjectivity, they are constantly chopping and changing rules (to an extent that is increasingly heavily criticised by fans and pundits, and in the case of American football, has actually led to break away leagues seeking a more back-to-basics approach), and the nature of the sport still allows for those stop-and-start periods for these decisions to be made.

The beauty of football has always been its perfect imperfection. It is also the most free flowing sport out there except perhaps basketball. It is the reason it is far and away the most popular sport on earth, with no other sport coming even remotely close. In fact there is parts of the world in which footballing cultures have sprung about on the basis that referees can and should be gamed (as much as we hate it here). Footballs imperfections allow that kind of adaptability. Why do we even need to try and imitate other far less popular and far less successful sports, that most people consider more boring to watch - especially at the expense of these things that make this sport popular in the first place?

All that said, it has already happened and there is probably no going back. But I think it is absolutely the case that fans, pundits and the media have helped to dig their own grave. For me growing up there was never any football chat more boring, and yet more popular, then people moaning about referees. And now this.
Referees have always been criticised, but they are far from alone there. The way of the world now is to forensically examine things to the billionth degree. Controversy has to be found in order to fill airtime and column inches.

I find that all pretty tedious, but it is what it is. What annoys me even more is how selective it is. Because of bias and biased narrative, certain people and/or certain clubs seem have open season on them while others are unjustly lavished with positives. Look at how Harry Kane and Mo Salah are portrayed. Mo is a "selfish player and a serial diver" whilst Kane is "lethal and clever". So, similar scrutiny, but a different agenda and a different narrative attached.

These days I think referees get an easy ride by the media, but if refs still feel they have unjust criticism in the football media, it's the football media they need to be a angry at, not clubs.

The best way the refereeing profession can decrease the amount of criticism it attracts is to simply start doing their jobs like good professionals rather than stroppy children who cannot or will not take responsibility for their outrageously poor performances. If anything, they get an easy ride these days, given that their standards are at an all-time low.

The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #157 on: February 26, 2021, 11:42:06 am »
Referees have always been criticised, but they are far from alone there. The way of the world now is to forensically examine things to the billionth degree. Controversy has to be found in order to fill airtime and column inches.

I find that all pretty tedious, but it is what it is. What annoys me even more is how selective it is. Because of bias and biased narrative, certain people and/or certain clubs seem have open season on them while others are unjustly lavished with positives. Look at how Harry Kane and Mo Salah are portrayed. Mo is a "selfish player and a serial diver" whilst Kane is "lethal and clever". So, similar scrutiny, but a different agenda and a different narrative attached.

These days I think referees get an easy ride by the media, but if refs still feel they have unjust criticism in the football media, it's the football media they need to be a angry at, not clubs.

The best way the refereeing profession can decrease the amount of criticism it attracts is to simply start doing their jobs like good professionals rather than stroppy children who cannot or will not take responsibility for their outrageously poor performances. If anything, they get an easy ride these days, given that their standards are at an all-time low.

Yeah I agree it is definitely an increasing reflection of the society we live in. The idea that some decision not 100% correct can be allowed to pass without minute scrutiny is clearly not possible for many. There is constant need for criticism, for "talking points", for click bait, for general outrage.

You are also right that the reaction to it from officials has been abysmal. And the irony of VAR is that it has simply made everything worse, because there is less place for officials to hide and less excuse for getting it wrong, and yet simultaneously they are still being asked to scrutinise decisions in minute detail what are often subjective decisions, which in the context of VAR are contrary to the general spirit and dynamics of the game at a more fundamental level.

And again I won´t argue on the whole media and pundit narrative. I also think everyone being sat on their backsides through Covid has made it even worse. I don´t bother with Twitter, and it has been years since I have bothered to sit around listening to pundits as well. Waste of time.

Offline Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #158 on: February 26, 2021, 11:49:06 am »
the fact is they are obviously good mates .If someone had a go at  one of your mates you would all stick together to get them back .
we had a go at coote  - its human nature they will get back at us.

southampton called them out a few weeks ago and have had no end of decisions go against them since.

I get that, but Maguire went on a tirade against the officials not giving them decisions in recent weeks (after 12-18 months of constant decisions and pens). Next game they get a pen and Maguire gets away with that challenge.

These standards and unspoken rules never apply to them.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #159 on: February 26, 2021, 11:54:47 am »
It is a good point about professionalism making it more unacceptable. And I think most would agree that the current crop of referees are atrocious. But ultimately the kind of unrelenting referee chat that I am talking about has been around basically since the Premier League era. It has been 30 years leading up to this point. How did the referees of the 70s compare to the referees here in, say, the 90s and 00s? Because this current crop, to my memory, are a couple of levels below even that of 10 years ago.

There is also the fact that the game itself has changed. It was easier to let a game flow back in the 70s and 80s, because the game was rougher, whereas now there are players throwing themselves to the ground left right and centre at the slightest touch. I am not getting into the rights and wrongs of players doing that, because it is clearly also a reaction to the way in which things are officiated (you now need to go to ground to prove you have been touched). But that in itself also makes it an even harder and more subjective a sport to referee for as long as it remains a contact sport. There is no other sport to my mind in which it is so acceptable to try and cheat referees in this way.

The game is much, much faster now as well and relentless (i.e. back pass rule). It's no wonder an unfit 50 year old fella is quite happy to blow up for a free kick and let opponents time waste, so he can catch his breath. They can't keep up with the play. This is another thing we're starting to suffer with, as referees are slowing games down to give themselves a breather. It's not too bad for City who just keep the ball all game and are happy with a slow pace. United are happy to sit back and wait for fast counters. We rely on winning the ball back in the opposition half and keeping the ball high up the pitch, but the ref will blow up for a foul every time if they go down (which opponents have figured out).

I can live with the refs being crap, up to a point. What I can't live with is the institutional bias, prejudice and pettiness they exhibit with regards to how they officiate games now.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 12:00:14 pm by Fromola »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season