Topic: Baking in progress and preserving our values... what's the right club structure?

[KingKolo]

the allegation is that hamberg is a dead man walking in his current role, as he was a parry hire and a bad one at that. if that's the case it's been all rhetoric and no real progress.
yes - the Academy scouts with its own budget, and for example, bought in Adjarevic and Dalla Valle with its own cash, as well as many others. There have even been allegations that Parry was behind the pursuit of Aaron Ramsay in the summer.
meanwhile, Rafa etc have no input to the recruitment at lower levels, and it seems they don't have any input into selection and scouting criteria, or agree any aspect of the coaching curriculum. but that's not proven - it's based on speculation if i'm honest as nobody's written anything definitive on that issue.
but yes, there are separate scouting set-ups, and separate budgets from what i can gather mate.

I can obviously understand that on the one hand, for continuity's sake it doesn't necessarily make sense for Rafa to have total control over the Academy.
But on the other hand, it also makes zero sense for the Academy to have a separate recruitment department (including budget), and minimal involvement from Melwood.

And clearly things will not be resolved until we have a decent working relationship between Chief Exec. and Manager, which seems impossible between Benitez and Parry.

However, in theory there must be a workable middle-ground.
There's no doubt that to keep pace with the world's best, we have to be signing players from around the world aged 15-30.
(By the way, what are the rules for eligibility?
Lauri Dalle Valle and Alex Kacaniclic are not from Merseyside, but they are on the Academy's books, but I thought there was something about players having to come from within a certain radius of the Academy or something like that.)
Surely there should be a Chief Youth Scout who recruits both for the Reserves and for the Academy, not one for each.
The question is, how would this work?
What are your thoughts Roy?

We do have a total of nearly 50 players within the Academy and the 1st team squad who have almost no chance of making a 1st team start this season, which does not compare too well with about 35 at both Arsenal and Man Utd.

But to be fair, Arsenal's Academy is hardly functioning perfectly, with A Cole the only graduate that has become a 1st regular.
Also, their reserves and under18s seem to function in the same way that ours do, with players tending to play for one or the other but seldom both.

Utd's on the other hand seems different.
They actually have very few players on the books that aren't either knocking on the door of the 1st team or yet to graduate from the Academy.
But their Academy hasn't been at all prolific either.
The Nevilles, Beckham, Scholes etc all emerged before the Academy system cam into place, in the same way that our little flurry of local talent through the 90s did, and there's not been much since.

So whilst it's not difficult to argue that the number of youngsters Macia and Benitez are bringing straight to Anfield must be stifling the chances for Academy graduates, with Asdarevic and Ecclestone the obvious examples, Utd and Arsenal are not faring much better even though they are not making the same mistake.

Is the Academy system itself at fault?
Man City and Boro are examples which seem to say no, but there's certainly a lot of talk about it around England at the moment.

Anyway, I'd much rather see our reserves lining up like this (for example):

1.   Diego
2.   Darby
3.   Insua
4.   Kelly
5.   Wisdom
6.   Irwin
7.   Amoo
8.   Spearing
9.   Ecclestone
10. Pacheco
11. Asdarevic

Subs:

Gulacsi
Mackay-Steven
Buchtmann
Ince
Pepper
Dalla Valle
Kacaniklic

The players who train at Melwood that are subsequently dropping out are:
Huth, Duran, Simon, Crowther, Brouwer, San Jose, Bruna, Saric, Mendy, Flora, Weijl and Ayala.

I know a few people are excited about Weijl, one or two still think Bruna has talent, and Saric and Flora have had no chance through injury thus far. But would anyone really give a fuck if that lot were told to pack their bags?
I know I wouldn't.

But in order for so many Academy players to have regular action for the reserves as well (which would be great in my opinion, since 20 games a season is not enough for a hungry 17 year-old), surely Ablett's gotta have much closer contact with them?
And how could that be with the Academy in Kirkby?

[4pool]

But with the new(er) home grown rules for Europe and maybe eventually for the Premier League.. we need to groom talent.

Now it would be great if a Stevie G, Fowler, Owen, or Shaggy came through. But even "squad" players who can step in and do the business without necessarily being full Internationals still means the Academy is producing.

To often we want super stars when good pro's will do just fine when surrounded by full Internationals in the starting 11.

[KingKolo]

But with the new(er) home grown rules for Europe and maybe eventually for the Premier League.. we need to groom talent.

Now it would be great if a Stevie G, Fowler, Owen, or Shaggy came through. But even "squad" players who can step in and do the business without necessarily being full Internationals still means the Academy is producing.

To often we want super stars when good pro's will do just fine when surrounded by full Internationals in the starting 11.

I agree with that to an extent.
Look at Everton with Hibbert, Osman and Anichebe, they're making their Academy work for them without necessarily producing world-class stars.

But at the moment it seems that even good squad pros aren't making it through from the Academy, because they can't even get involved in the Reserve set up.

[4pool]

True to a certain extent.

But Rafa has only really had 2-3 years of being more involved with the Academy. And with Heighway leaving in reality it's only been a year or so with more input.

So we need to have a bit more patience. We're starting to see a few lads be given a go..Derby, Insua, Spearing, and Kelly.

[royhendo]

roy.......the chelsea/arnesen stuff?

aah! well reminded...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/nov/04/chelsea-premierleague

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/nov/23/chelsea-premierleague

[Manila Kop]

Roy, Redwood, I haven't had the time to go through this thread until today and I see we've got the beginnings of another great discussion.

I don't really know where to start since there are so many excellent points, but I think I should pick up on what you mentioned with the Barcelona/Real Madrid cantera setup and how they're able to have a continuous pipeline of quality youth players getting into the first team.

Barcelona definitely have the stronger track record, with Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, and now Busquets and Bojan providing a strong homegrown core to the squad.  In contrast, Real's track record is a bit of a shambles really from what I remember.  Out of their current first team, I think it's only Ruben de la Red who's broken through from their youth ranks recently - and he was sold to Getafe first before being bought back by Madrid.  Juande's been forced to give some players their debuts due to their horrific injury record now, but if the first team was healthy I don't really see a core of youth players there.  Then you have Raul, who was originally in Atletico Madrid's cantera before their mad president decided they didn't need a youth system and closed it down.

Clearly, not all squads in Spain are equal when it comes to youth development, so it can't be down to a national/league structure when Barcelona are able to promote young players seamlessly into the first team while Real Madrid tend to loan them out and sell them.  There are definite benefits from having a B-team able to play in the lower leagues week-in, week-out but that's not the real determinant of success.

At the moment most of us feel like Liverpool are more like Real Madrid - we have good enough players who can play football at a professional level, and we end up loaning them out/releasing them/selling them on.  But we want to be Barcelona, where not only do young players succeed at playing for us at the highest level but they produce world-class, championship-caliber first team members.  We want our own homegrown Messis and Xavis, and lots of them.

So what are the key differences between the Real Madrid and Barcelona setups?  I must admit I'm not an expert, but it seems to me that there is a stronger and more defined culture and identity at the Catalan club vs. the Castillian one.  Hence Sid Lowe's article which I posted on the Level 3 thread.  A few key paragraphs:

Know exactly what you're playing at

"You can lose a match but never your identity." So said Deco during his spell at the Camp Nou and no side in Europe has a clearer footballing identity. Since the arrival of Johan Cruyff – first as a player, then coach, now unofficial presidential advisor, a kind of eminence gris - Barcelona have shown an almost obsessive desire to maintain possession, best expressed in the Dream Team that won four successive titles between 1991 and 1994.

"Everything revolves around the ball," says one of Pep Guardiola's closest collaborators. It's all about quick and constant movement, short, one-touch passing, intelligent positioning. About running, sure, but running the right way. "Blindly sprinting everywhere is worthless," says Barcelona's No2 Tito Vilanova; Guardiola had to tell Seydou Keita to stop running so much.

Barcelona have had more seven, eight, nine and 10-man moves than any other side - and by over 50% in every case. The key is just how entrenched the Cruyff method is: while Cruyffism can be fundamentalist, it works because it is so much a part of Barcelona's DNA, running right through the club. As Michael Robinson, Spain's most famous football commentator, puts it: "put 20 kids in a park and I can tell you which two are at Barça."

There is a Barcelona model, common to Xavi Hernandez, Andres Iniesta and Cesc Fábregas - traceable to Cruyff's ideology and the classic Barcelona central midfielder: current coach Guardiola. It is the commitment to an identity that led Barcelona to opt for continuity with him rather than employing the iconoclast Jose Mourinho. "Pep suckled from the teat of Cruyff," as one of his staff puts it. The inclusion of La Masia graduates like Xavi, Carles Puyol, Leo Messi, Andres Iniesta, Sergio Busquets, Gerard Piqué, Bojan Krkic and Pedro makes that innate feel for the system even more self-perpetuating.

Reading the above, you realize that the current Barcelona team which is ripping into all comers in La Liga is all about legacy - the fruits of strong foundations built and bequeathed by Johan Cruyff to the club in the 1990s.  A style of playing, a vision of the game, an obsession with possession, that is instilled into the youngest players and continues to be drilled into them when they make it into the first team.  Barcelona strike me as one of the most self-conscious clubs in the world, always aware of their playing inheritance and eager to preserve that identity.  Thus the choice of Pep Guardiola over Jose Mourinho - a return to winning roots instead of a radical break at the end of the Rijkaard era.  And this "Cruyffism" has been pounded, nurtured, instilled and indoctrinated throughout all the players and coaches of the club through the past two decades - watched over by Johan Cruyff himself.  Cruyff was instrumental in blocking Mourinho's appointment at Barcelona.

Contrast that with Real Madrid.  What is Real about?  What is its playing identity?  I couldn't tell you.   Maybe some of the Madridistas on here can, but it seems to me that Real is so bound up in the identity of winning, and the glamour it brings, that over the past decade there's been a mishmash of styles, coaches, technical directors and players brought in and out in the pursuit of short-term success at any cost.  I don't think Real has any solid foundations or long-term project on the pitch comparable to Barcelona, and their managerial merry-go-round doesn't help.  Their youth system's director, ex-Real player Michel, quit this year complaining about Calderon.  Their production of young players is not on par with Barcelona, and they prefer to buy instead of promote them to the first team.

Clearly Redwood, the Barça system of having separate Technical and Academy Directors only work because there is such a permanence of vision around the club, created by Cruyff, and they are the stewards of this legacy.  Without this strong foundation, dividing the youth development from the first team coaching will result in inevitable clashes, disappointments and tensions as both sides will pursue their own agendas.

Arguably what happened in Liverpool was that the club went into transition when Dalglish left, and the foundations left behind by Shankly were slowly knocked down.  The Academy setup harked back to our traditions with Heighway, but the first team went another way with Houllier replacing Evans, and Rafa replacing Houllier (it's why you get the "Who Killed Pass and Move" thread on RAWK).  A lot of the concerns about giving Rafa control of the Academy is that if he leaves for whatever reason, we'll gut the Academy with it.  "We need something stable, something independent," people say.  But continuity is only important when you're trying to preserve something of value from the past.  At this point, what Liverpool identity or legacy does the Academy represent and propagate?  Can we categorically say that it embodies our club's playing philosophy and the hope for renewing our dynasty?  Let's face it, the Academy isn't exactly the last fortress against the barbarian hordes, more like the weak point in the Great Wall.

Like all revolutions, we've exhausted and squandered Shankly's (playing) inheritance to us, and it's probably impossible to get it back unless we reappoint Kenny to the helm.  The best we can hope for with Rafa is a new vision to build upon, respectful of our traditions but also revitalizing the club to bring back to winning ways.  It's what Royhendo's Level 3 thread is about isn't it, because if you drill down to RM's philosophy it's basically the blueprint for an entire club.  We are only sabotaging ourselves by refusing to cede control of the Academy to Rafa.  We need to stop being a club in transition and go back to being a club with a real philosophy and unity of vision, much like British Cycling - as we saw it's much easier to work together and achieve success when everyone agrees on common goals and shared values, and since our deadbeat owners or clueless CEO isn't going to provide that, the only candidate is Rafa.

[Manila Kop]

Incidentally, since we're on the topic of Chelsea and Arnesen, I dug up an article I remember reading from last season's FA Youth Cup.  Seeing it again now, it's almost exactly like Dave Usher's criticisms of Eduardo Macia's scouting failures.

Chelsea rich kids yet to prove value for money
FA Youth Cup final Costs of Blues' academy dwarf those of their rivals but graduates are slow to make the first team, says Duncan Castles
The Observer, Sunday 13 April 2008

It's not just about catch-up, it's about having the best youth-development programme in the world. To try and make the top quality of recruitment and academy so we can get the best players in and develop them so they are good enough to get into the first team. In two years' time, the first has to have come through' Frank Arnesen, October 2005.

In some ways, Chelsea's director of youth development has been as good as his word. Since his controversial move from Spurs nearly three years ago, the Dane has presided over the creation of football's grandest and most expensive academy.

Soon to be housed in a purpose-built £11million building at Chelsea's luxurious Surrey training centre, the under-18 side currently contesting the FA Youth Cup final against Manchester City cost more than £6m in initial transfer fees. Performance-related payments to their former clubs could double that figure, while wages, agents' fees and other benefits are commensurate to Chelsea's status.

Teams at every age level from under-nines to reserves are provided with a dedicated coach and fitness trainer, and supported by a group of medical experts. Arnesen himself came at a cost of £5m in compensation and has a reported annual salary of more than £2m - higher than many Premier League managers. He has employed a global network of scouts, more than 50 strong, with two full-time in major countries and a budget described by one former employee as 'unlimited'.

Yet, while players such as Ben Sahar - a muscular Israeli forward who has scored for his national side - and Scott Sinclair, a lithe winger borrowed to some effect by Championship sides, have made sporadic appearances at times of injury, not a single academy graduate has established himself as a regular member of the senior squad, never mind as a first-choice player. No admirer of Arnesen's recruitment policies, José Mourinho publicly discussed the shortage of usable talent during his injury crisis of last season, while a member of the former manager's backroom staff sums up the youths as 'some good boys, nice lads. But there wasn't one that we looked at and thought he would be a first-team player.'

However, a Chelsea spokesman said: '[Our academy's] results are now being seen with the youth team in their first FA final since 1961, two academy boys having made their first-team debut this season and 17 England internationals representing their country at under-21 and below.'

As Arsenal's smaller-scale scouting system continues to push at least one youth a year into their first team, Chelsea's nursery has postponed its delivery dates. 'We hope to see players breaking into the senior squad from 2010,' academy director Neil Bath said recently. Contrary to Arnesen's promise on arrival that Chelsea would 'have absolutely no problem' with new Uefa quotas relating to 'locally trained' players in teams entering their club competitions, the Blues named a 23-man Champions League group-stage squad (the maximum is 25) this season due to an injury to Michael Ballack and a lack of qualified individuals.

Although this year's team, held 1-1 at home 10 days ago, could lift the Youth Cup on Wednesday, there have been other problems. Chelsea have struggled in the FA Premier Academy and Reserve League, and stand fifth- and third-bottom of the respective tables. Last year, Arnesen's choice as youth-team coach, Ruud Kaiser, was removed from duties two games before the end of his only season at the club.

Although well thought of by Mourinho, senior club scout Gwyn Williams was laid off in the summer of 2006. Williams, whose youth signings included John Terry, John Obi Mikel and Lassana Diarra, was rapidly employed by Leeds.

Meanwhile, Chelsea have made some intriguing acquisitions. Slobodan Rajkovic, a 16-year-old Serbian defender, was bought for a record €5.3m (£3.7m) in 2005, but has been parked first in Belgrade, now at PSV Eindhoven. Eyebrows were raised when schoolboy defender Jeffrey Bruma was allowed to move from Feyenoord several months before reaching the age of 16.

Manchester City's youth programme cost the club just £1.6m last year, yet over the past decade has delivered 25 players to the first team and 'around 30' to some level of League football in the UK.

It is run by a former Bury player, Jim Cassell, who has developed England internationals Shaun Wright-Phillips, Micah Richards and Joey Barton, regularly won the regional youth league, and turned a substantial profit. 'We've raised £32.5million, so we're about £22million in profit over 10 years,' Cassell says. 'And that doesn't include Micah, Michael Johnson, Stephen Ireland, Nedum Onuoha, Danny Sturridge and Kelvin Etuhu.'

Although their facilities - shared with the local community - are less glamorous than Chelsea's, City's operation is far from small-scale. But while Barry Poynton heads up a team of more than 40 scouts, the vast majority are part-time and the costs are a fraction of Chelsea's.

Sturridge scored at Stamford Bridge, leading the line for a team including six players who had been with City since the age of nine. Cassell is careful not to criticise Chelsea's cash-rich approach, admitting that City now cast their net across Europe, but he is eager to underline his programme's success with silverware.

'We're desperate to win the Youth Cup,' he says. 'But if we don't we'll say well done to the opposition and we'll regroup and get on with the production of players, which is what we're primarily there for.'

[royhendo]

I can obviously understand that on the one hand, for continuity's sake it doesn't necessarily make sense for Rafa to have total control over the Academy.
But on the other hand, it also makes zero sense for the Academy to have a separate recruitment department (including budget), and minimal involvement from Melwood.

And clearly things will not be resolved until we have a decent working relationship between Chief Exec. and Manager, which seems impossible between Benitez and Parry.

However, in theory there must be a workable middle-ground.
There's no doubt that to keep pace with the world's best, we have to be signing players from around the world aged 15-30.
(By the way, what are the rules for eligibility?
Lauri Dalle Valle and Alex Kacaniclic are not from Merseyside, but they are on the Academy's books, but I thought there was something about players having to come from within a certain radius of the Academy or something like that.)
Surely there should be a Chief Youth Scout who recruits both for the Reserves and for the Academy, not one for each.
The question is, how would this work?
What are your thoughts Roy?

i'd just re-iterate what i said in the o.p. geoff...

Personally I like redwood32's suggestion - the idea of someone respected coming in to liaise between the two parties - a new head of football development at youth level who puts the Academy staff under the right amount of pressure to perform, and agrees the standards (technical ability, physical power and fitness, and attitude - all three of those aspects are measurable in this day and age) as well as being experienced enough to know when someone's a player full stop. Kenny would be the dream choice for me, because he's capable of doing the diplomatic side. Rafa respects him, the Academy staff respect him, and he's strong enough to act in the best interests of the club and refrain from taking sides and get involved in powerbroking.

What do we need long-term? We need to make sure our local and global scouting is getting the right players in for the right value, so why do we currently have two independent scouting set-ups with different budgets and different guidelines on the kind of attributes we're looking for in our players?

Having recruited the players, we need to ensure we have an agreed syllabus in place for the coaching, to make sure the maturing players are developing the kind of things needed to cut it at the top level. The senior coaching staff should have an active input into this set-up and sign off on it each season, and everyone should be agreed as to the plan for the coming year before it starts - the plan should work towards the stated goals for the year, and the goals for the year should map to the long-term project, and the club's overall vision.

At the same time, clear assessment criteria and measurements should be put in place to objectively assess when a player's capable of making the next step, whatever that step may be. The process shouldn't be too rigid, as we're not talking about robots here, but there should be a set of minimum non-negotiable standards that, again, both departments have an input to, and both departments sign off on each season.

We do have a total of nearly 50 players within the Academy and the 1st team squad who have almost no chance of making a 1st team start this season, which does not compare too well with about 35 at both Arsenal and Man Utd.

I'm not sure on these numbers...

here's what i found when i had a dig (again sorry as it's posted above but things aren't quite as ridiculous as they seem - we're roughly comparable with arsenal).

overall squad numbers... not including spurs (will have to dig those numbers out...)

First team squad numbers
36 - Arsenal, Man Utd
35 - Liverpool
30 - Man City
27 - Chelsea
23 - Villa

Reserve players not listed in 1st team
21 - Villa
19 - Man City
18 - Liverpool
17 - Arsenal
13 - Chelsea
10 - Man Utd

Total loanees (1st team and reserves)
11 - Liverpool
10 - Arsenal
9 - Chelsea
6 - Man Utd
3 - Man City
2 - Aston Villa

Academy players not listed in reserves
27 - Aston Villa
25 - Man Utd
22 - Chelsea
19 - Liverpool
17 - Arsenal
? - Man City (details not listed)   

So - total player numbers for 1st team and reserves are as follows...

64 - Liverpool
63 - Arsenal
52 - Man Utd
52 - Man City
49 - Chelsea
46 - Aston Villa

i think we should avoid debating the relative merits of players at the lower levels here - there's plenty of scope for that in the 'youth/reserves' thread on the main board. we should focus on the underlying structural causes and how to fix them rather than the symptoms of the problem, no?

regardless, i think the melwood and academy set-ups need more conscious integration and there are ways to do that without triggering world war three.

[manifest]

Like all revolutions, we've exhausted and squandered Shankly's (playing) inheritance to us, and it's probably impossible to get it back unless we reappoint Kenny to the helm.  The best we can hope for with Rafa is a new vision to build upon, respectful of our traditions but also revitalizing the club to bring back to winning ways.  It's what Royhendo's Level 3 thread is about isn't it, because if you drill down to RM's philosophy it's basically the blueprint for an entire club.  We are only sabotaging ourselves by refusing to cede control of the Academy to Rafa.  We need to stop being a club in transition and go back to being a club with a real philosophy and unity of vision, much like British Cycling - as we saw it's much easier to work together and achieve success when everyone agrees on common goals and shared values, and since our deadbeat owners or clueless CEO isn't going to provide that, the only candidate is Rafa.

 

[TSC]

The bootroom tradition was killed off years ago by Souness unfortunately.  Even today he'd admit that was a huge mistake.

I have read Dave Usher's take on the situation and a few have disagreed with his view, although mainly on the basis that I think he covertly critisises Rafa's regime, as opposed to actually disagreeing and arguing against Dave's view.

But anyway, most arguments have concentrated on Rafa's situation, and whether or not he should be given full control.  Other clubs ave been cited etc re their set-ups.

I don't know what the best solution is.  However it is clear, and it appears a few have missed the point, that Liverpool's current infrastructure is not conducive to an easy redirection towards a long term strategy.  As long as the two owners remain in place, along with Parry, there is never going to be progress re strategy.

Something Else posted a scenario where we won the league and basically 'accepted' the owners for what they are.  I don't think that will ever happen due to a number of factors.  The outstanding debt will need to be renegotiated eventually.  Even if somehow we won the league this yr this will remain the case.  And I think the damage done to date puts them (owners) beyond redemption.

Parry and Rafa's relationship appears to have broken to the extent it is unfixable.  Something will have to give eventually.  Should Lpool (& obviously Rafa) win the league then Parry has to go in any battle.

I'm aware I'm waffling.  But basically the future of the academy, reserves, Rafa's control, etc, will always be secondary and consequently subject to developments at the very highest level at LFC.  And that at this current time is a very complex situation.

For what it's worth I wouldn't be comfortable with Rafa having control over everything LFC related.  Esp given the Heighway fiasco.  And similarily I'd hate to think that internal politics blocks the progress of young players.

But obviously my view is simply based on articles I've read as opposed to what I know.

[shelovesyou]

Hi all

Can someone break it down for me in Lehmans terms the issue surrounding Parry , Rafa and The Acadamy predicement please - Ive tried me best to follow this but I just cant get me head round it -

Appreciate yer help , in my defense Im a bit slow

[TSC]

Hi all

Can someone break it down for me in Lehmans terms the issue surrounding Parry , Rafa and The Acadamy predicement please - Ive tried me best to follow this but I just cant get me head round it -

Appreciate yer help , in my defense Im a bit slow

Well for a start you need to leave the Arsenal nazi out of this discussion.  You mean 'layman' not 'Lehman'

Anyway, Rafa wants full control over everything at Liverpool; i.e. reserves, academy as well as first team.

The way LFC is set up at the mo this isn't possible.  The academy at Kirkby is completely beyond Rafa's reach and influence.  Apparently Heighway left following great success because there was no chance of any of Heighway's successes breaking through, because (apparently) Rafa hated the academy simply because he couldn't control it.

If you read Carra and Gerrard's autobiographies you'll get a taste of what's going on.  According to Carra there's little to no chance of a local making the breakthrough today due to the political impasse.  And he doesn't exactly exonorate Rafa from blame.

The argument against Rafa gaining control of all strands of football at LFC relate to the fact that if the manager was sacked then this would necessitate a full overhaul of all strands of football.  Whereas if they were kept seperate then at least if the manager went there'd be a bit of continuity at academy/reserve level.

But Rafa wants it all.

There will be no agreement while the current political impasse exists.  Parry et al provide their own entertainment and Rafa (and indeed Liverpool's) interests come last.

[shelovesyou]

Well for a start you need to leave the Arsenal nazi out of this discussion.  You mean 'layman' not 'Lehman'

Anyway, Rafa wants full control over everything at Liverpool; i.e. reserves, academy as well as first team.

The way LFC is set up at the mo this isn't possible.  The academy at Kirkby is completely beyond Rafa's reach and influence.  Apparently Heighway left following great success because there was no chance of any of Heighway's successes breaking through, because (apparently) Rafa hated the academy simply because he couldn't control it.

If you read Carra and Gerrard's autobiographies you'll get a taste of what's going on.  According to Carra there's little to no chance of a local making the breakthrough today due to the political impasse.  And he doesn't exactly exonorate Rafa from blame.

The argument against Rafa gaining control of all strands of football at LFC relate to the fact that if the manager was sacked then this would necessitate a full overhaul of all strands of football.  Whereas if they were kept seperate then at least if the manager went there'd be a bit of continuity at academy/reserve level.

But Rafa wants it all.

There will be no agreement while the current political impasse exists.  Parry et al provide their own entertainment and Rafa (and indeed Liverpool's) interests come last.

i told you i was a bit slow , anyway it all sounds very political i agree , i appreciate yer response and i feel a bit wiser to it - so basically Rafa wants control of everything the reserves, acadamy etc - its is alot to take on but you would think the acadamy would be more accesible to Rafa to keep an eye on some upcoming youngsters - we could do with alot more coming thru - it seems madness doesnt it
i wish Parry would just fuck off and leave alone - i mean what does he know ? ?

[Manila Kop]

i told you i was a bit slow , anyway it all sounds very political i agree , i appreciate yer response and i feel a bit wiser to it - so basically Rafa wants control of everything the reserves, acadamy etc - its is alot to take on but you would think the acadamy would be more accesible to Rafa to keep an eye on some upcoming youngsters - we could do with alot more coming thru - it seems madness doesnt it
i wish Parry would just fuck off and leave alone - i mean what does he know ? ?

It IS very political and we do know Rafa and Parry like slapping each other down every so often - we saw some of it in the press last season unfortunately.  Parry however sees the Academy either as something distinctly Liverpool whose independence needs to be preserved against managerial instability, his personal fiefdom where he can powertrip as CEO (his son is a coach there), or probably a bit of both.  Which is why he fights so ferociously to keep it away from Rafa.

TSC - haven't read either of Gerrard or Carra's biographies, but is the fact he doesn't control the Academy the only reason Rafa won't promote anyone from it?  I recall there were also issues about the quality of the youth coming through which is an implied criticism of the coaching there and way it's run.  Dave Usher also accuses Parry of filling the Academy with unqualified coaches doesn't he?

[hesbighesred]

Whoah, hold on there guys:

"the fact he doesn't control the Academy the only reason Rafa won't promote anyone from it?"

Now, I know there are problems, and it's been right to highlight them, but let's not swallow this particular piece of over-hyped agenda driven total utter made up bullshit please?

Darby, Spearing, Kelly...all three have now both played in the CL, Darby with two appearances this season. Those three are all academy graduates.

As is Hobbs. And Hammill. And Anderson. And Martin. And Gulasci. And Bouzanis. And Nemeth. And Pacheco. And Bruna. And Irwin. And more. (I know these have not appeared in the first team yet, except Hobbs, but clearly they are all developing perfectly well, and clearly they all have at least a good chance of first team appearances. Certainly it's absurd to argue that they are being frozen out in some way).

If there's one bit about this whole debate that I'd like to slap someone about it's that. Maybe Rafa does have massive issues, maybe he is being a pig headed twat, but to suggest he flat out won't promote any academy graduates is a pernicious, pathetic and self serving lie that shouldn't be spread, especially since a two second look at the first team and reserve squad and the young players who have had appearances this under Rafa would reveal just how utterly full to the brim of bitter and ignorant crap that particular statement is.

[Manila Kop]

HBHR - I'm rushing off to a party now so I don't have time to factcheck all of them, but as I recall only Darby, Spearing, Kelly, Hammill and Anderson are considered Academy products.  Hobbs was bought from Leicester straight to the reserves.  Nemeth, Pacheco and Bruna were all bought from clubs on the Continent, Insua was bought from Argentina, etc.  So I think Rafa's record on promoting Academy youngsters IS a bit mixed.  Hamill and Anderson are still out on loan, the previous Academy products who made their first team appearances have been sold on (Otsemobor, Raven, Guthrie, Warnock, etc.), and Darby, Spearing and Kelly have only lately made their first team debuts.  Only Gerrard and Carra are truly homegrown players who are integral members of the first team squad.

Only saying this because I know Strawberry Fields will be on here soon enough with his usual facts.  But we do ourselves no favors by making out that Rafa has done a good job in promoting homegrown young players to the first team when the jury is still out.  I do agree though that it seems a bit malicious to accuse him of overlooking youth simply because he doesn't control the Academy, when the list of Academy players we've released show that they were lower league standard and not Liverpool-quality players.

[hesbighesred]

HBHR - I'm rushing off to a party now so I don't have time to factcheck all of them, but as I recall only Darby, Spearing, Kelly, Hammill and Anderson are considered Academy products.  Hobbs was bought from Leicester straight to the reserves.  Nemeth, Pacheco and Bruna were all bought from clubs on the Continent, Insua was bought from Argentina, etc.  So I think Rafa's record on promoting Academy youngsters IS a bit mixed.  Hamill and Anderson are still out on loan, the previous Academy products who made their first team appearances have been sold on (Otsemobor, Raven, Guthrie, Warnock, etc.), and Darby, Spearing and Kelly have only lately made their first team debuts.  Only Gerrard and Carra are truly homegrown players who are integral members of the first team squad.

Only saying this because I know Strawberry Fields will be on here soon enough with his usual facts.  But we do ourselves no favors by making out that Rafa has done a good job in promoting homegrown young players to the first team when the jury is still out.  I do agree though that it seems a bit malicious to accuse him of overlooking youth simply because he doesn't control the Academy, when the list of Academy players we've released show that they were lower league standard and not Liverpool-quality players.

MK -

Point is, the allegations are very specific, namely that Rafa hasn't/doesn't/won't promote any academy graduates. It was, as far as I know, never defined as 'local products' of the academy, just players who have come through the academy.

I think it's very important not to confuse this issue with first team promotion...as I say, there clearly are problems, and perhaps Rafa could be doing better in some respects...but as an allegation this goes beyond that, and suggests that Rafa is prepared to ignore footballing reasons in favour of politicking.

Even if 'only' the players you mention count, it's still enough to completely disprove that point, it's an obvious and malicious lie. Maybe Rafa is making it very hard for the academy kids...but he is not outright blocking their progress when they are good enough. Darby is well ahead of the curve for a defender of his age, for example. Him just by himself completely disproves the entire allegation.

It should never have been made in those stark terms in the first place, it's malicious as well as obviously fictional.

Anyway, I thought Hobbs has played for our u18's? (could be wrong). All the foreign lads have also all played for the u18's, so as far as I'm concerned are 'academy graduates'. They certainly should be considered that considering the original article uses the likes of Kakaniklic and Adrajevic in the case for the prosecution...if they count as academy kids being blocked, then Bruna/Pacheco etc count as graduates. Can't have it both ways. (I didn't mention Insua in my post...I'm pretty sure he did go straight into the reserves, and quite rightly too).

"But we do ourselves no favors by making out that Rafa has done a good job in promoting homegrown young players to the first team when the jury is still out."

Just to clarify, I don't want my post to get into that, it's a seperate issue to the one I'm highlighting. Again, specific allegation is that if you've played for the academy, you have no chance of progressing...the original article used progression to the reserves as part of that argument...it wasn't purely first team, where a case could be made, though again, actually not at all because Darby exists. So, unless Darby, Spearing and many more are figments of my imagination that particular allegation is a blatant lie...even if the author was just passing it on, three seconds of brain use would have shown it to be bullshit, so why say it?

[KingKolo]

God, I've got a beasting hangover, ended up sleeping in some bird's lap and dancing with old ladies at the office Christmas party last night, so apologies if this makes no sense:

Personally I like redwood32's suggestion - the idea of someone respected coming in to liaise between the two parties - a new head of football development at youth level who puts the Academy staff under the right amount of pressure to perform, and agrees the standards (technical ability, physical power and fitness, and attitude - all three of those aspects are measurable in this day and age) as well as being experienced enough to know when someone's a player full stop. Kenny would be the dream choice for me, because he's capable of doing the diplomatic side. Rafa respects him, the Academy staff respect him, and he's strong enough to act in the best interests of the club and refrain from taking sides and get involved in powerbroking.

What do we need long-term? We need to make sure our local and global scouting is getting the right players in for the right value, so why do we currently have two independent scouting set-ups with different budgets and different guidelines on the kind of attributes we're looking for in our players?

Having recruited the players, we need to ensure we have an agreed syllabus in place for the coaching, to make sure the maturing players are developing the kind of things needed to cut it at the top level. The senior coaching staff should have an active input into this set-up and sign off on it each season, and everyone should be agreed as to the plan for the coming year before it starts - the plan should work towards the stated goals for the year, and the goals for the year should map to the long-term project, and the club's overall vision.

At the same time, clear assessment criteria and measurements should be put in place to objectively assess when a player's capable of making the next step, whatever that step may be. The process shouldn't be too rigid, as we're not talking about robots here, but there should be a set of minimum non-negotiable standards that, again, both departments have an input to, and both departments sign off on each season.

Yeah, that all makes sense.
Kenny would indeed be a very heartening addition (in whatever capacity to be fair).

i think we should avoid debating the relative merits of players at the lower levels here - there's plenty of scope for that in the 'youth/reserves' thread on the main board. we should focus on the underlying structural causes and how to fix them rather than the symptoms of the problem, no?

regardless, i think the melwood and academy set-ups need more conscious integration and there are ways to do that without triggering world war three.

I definitely agree with your final statement, and I don't really see how anyone couldn't including Rafa and Parry.

(My little "the reserve team could look like this" thing was just supposed to serve as an example of greater integration. For example, I obviously haven't got a realistic clue who out of Bruna and Amoo has greater potential.
And in any case as you point out it isn't relevant to the discussion.)

Anyway, I thought Hobbs has played for our u18's? (could be wrong). All the foreign lads have also all played for the u18's, so as far as I'm concerned are 'academy graduates'. They certainly should be considered that considering the original article uses the likes of Kakaniklic and Adrajevic in the case for the prosecution...if they count as academy kids being blocked, then Bruna/Pacheco etc count as graduates. Can't have it both ways. (I didn't mention Insua in my post...I'm pretty sure he did go straight into the reserves, and quite rightly too).

Hobbs did play for the under18s in the FA Youth Cup, but he did not train at the Academy. The same is true of Paul Anderson.
Playing for the Under18s does not make a player an Academy player.

Although you can certainly argue that the Dave Usher article is slanted, I don't think you really argue that there is enough integration between Melwood and The Academy.

Realistically, without getting into the nitty-gritty of how Rafa could get closer control of The Academy without the overall continuity being undermined beyond a tolerable level, I think it's fair to say that the club as a whole cannot function properly until the Chief Executive and the Manager have a good working relationship.

Quite simply, it's Rafa or Parry, and I'd take Rafa for obvious reasons.
This issue ties in with the current ownership crisis we are enduring, because a new buyer will almost certainly bring in their own Chief Executive.

Let's have DIC in to clear the debts and fund Stanley Park, with their own people to run commercial and financial matters, and King Kenny in at boardroom level acting as liaison between The Academy and Melwood.
(And while we're at it, I'd like a night with Kelly Brook too....)

[royhendo]

sounds like it was a good night geoff!

anyway - the stuff on the academy v melwood - these issues are symptoms of the underlying problem for me, and we shouldn't dwell on them, assign blame, or try to treat the symptoms, cos then it'll just happen all over again.

[4pool]

sounds like it was a good night geoff!

anyway - the stuff on the academy v melwood - these issues are symptoms of the underlying problem for me, and we shouldn't dwell on them, assign blame, or try to treat the symptoms, cos then it'll just happen all over again.

You mean more threads?

[hesbighesred]

Goeff, let me quote a bit of that Usher article:

A lot of people (fans and players alike) were surprised that Spearing and Darby weren't involved against Crewe, but I can honestly say, hand on heart, I'd have been amazed if they HAD been picked. I knew they'd be overlooked, and I even said it to people back in August when they were doing so well in pre-season. Villarreal made enquiries about taking Spearing on loan for this season, I bet he's gutted that never came off. I'm in danger of getting side tracked here though, and this isn't about whether Speo and Darbs should be playing in the League Cup, it's certainly relevant, but it isn't the main issue.

What we're seeing now, is that it's proving to be almost impossible for Academy youngsters - be they home grown or foreign - to get in the reserves.

The bits in bold are mine.

1. Spearing and Darby have now ben picked. Maybe that's in response to criticism, but they were both in the reserves below. Are they academy or not? It's obviously not that impossible, since several graduated this season, including Irwin, and didn't Darby only graduate last season? He's already had minutes in the prem.

2. The bit about Villareal, so is he implying that Rafa deliberately stopped him going to Villareal, in order to keep him in the reserves that only Macia signings apparently get into, in order to better block him from appearing in the first team?

3. It's almost impossible...home grown or foreign, unless of course your name happens to be Spearing, Darby, Kelly, Irwin, Martin, Nemeth, Pacheco (end of last season graduate), Bruna (this season) or any of the other multiple players who have graduated from the academy and are now playing for the reserves or a higher level.

Basically, what he actually means is that Ecclestone couldn't make it. That's it..that's who he's talking about. Ecclestone who thinks he's better than'any player in his position in the reserves right now', a position Usher agrees with, having apparently completely forgotten the existence of Nemeth, Pacheco and Ngog.

Thanks for clearing up the Hobbs thing though, I do realise the youth cup difference which is why I hadn't included Insua in the list.

Greater integration needed? Certainly.
Problems? Definitely seems that way.
Internal politics leading to issues and an unattractive academy? Yes.
Rafa actively blocking academy graduates from climbing the ladder? Utter, total bullshit, and in my view disgraceful to suggest such a thing unless you have serious, serious concrete evidence.

Instead we have an extensive list of players who have, in fact, graduated, that includes both local and foreign players, and Macia and non Macia signings.

So just what is the agenda with regards to that particular part of the allegation?

It's very important that we/the club do debate and look at these issues, but I also feel that it's our duty as fans to expose anything that's highly agenda driven and massively dubious, and in my view a flat out, malicious lie.

I agree with your overall point mind Goeff, but that particular allegation is massively serious, and the evidence that is available to anyone with eyes and a brain should at the very least cast massive amounts of doubt on the Usher/Academy/Parry/Whoever this is coming from angle.

You can't just bang on at length about, say, adrajevic and ecclestone and bloody ignore Irwin, Darby and Bruna just because they don't suit your argument.

What's particularly staggering is that he uses Spearing and Darby to support his argument, even though the pair of them utterly contradict what he's saying. It'd be funy if it weren't so damaging.

EDIT:

I agree with your conclusion by the way, unsurprisingly I'd back Rafa all the way, but I just want to be absolutely clear on that particular part of the argument. I think it's imprtant that people realise just how way off those allegations are when considering where that piece is coming from, and try and seperate that agenda from the imprtant parts of the discussion, namely what exactly is going wrong and what can we do about it.

[royhendo]

You mean more threads?

threads are symptoms too I guess... mourinho had the same issues at chelsea if not worse - the thing is the most ambitious managers are going to want the 'root to fruit' project to run - it's more important than salary I think for these men.

[KingKolo]

sounds like it was a good night geoff!

Yeah, bit too good to be honest.
I had a bottle of champagne and half a dozen pints before I even got there and once there was tucking into the shots of sambuca.
I'm still not feeling 100%, but at least I don't have to see anyone from work until the 5th of January, at which point me telling some girl from my office that she "has a cracking pair" will hopefully be a distant memory.

2. The bit about Villareal, so is he implying that Rafa deliberately stopped him going to Villareal, in order to keep him in the reserves that only Macia signings apparently get into, in order to better block him from appearing in the first team?

Yeah, not sure what exactly is being implied by Usher regarding Villareal, the argument seems perhaps slightly confused.

3. It's almost impossible...home grown or foreign, unless of course your name happens to be Spearing, Darby, Kelly, Irwin, Martin, Nemeth, Pacheco (end of last season graduate), Bruna (this season) or any of the other multiple players who have graduated from the academy and are now playing for the reserves or a higher level.

Martin, Nemeth, Pacheco and Bruna are not Academy graduates. This is key to the whole thing.
Rafa is bringing in his own youngsters and training them up with the reserves at Melwood.

Rafa actively blocking academy graduates from climbing the ladder? Utter, total bullshit, and in my view disgraceful to suggest such a thing unless you have serious, serious concrete evidence.

Obviously I'll point out that I'm not suggesting such a thing myself, I haven't got the foggiest.
I think the suggestion is, Rafa feels that the Academy is badly run (by Parry) and that this conflict is leading to an inadequate level of contact between Melwood and The Academy.
I'm not criticising Rafa myself, although I don't think he's perfect.

Instead we have an extensive list of players who have, in fact, graduated, that includes both local and foreign players, and Macia and non Macia signings.

No. Macia does not sign players for the Academy.
Macia signings go straight to Melwood, because The Academy have their own scouts and transfer budget.
This is the whole point.

You can't just bang on at length about, say, adrajevic and ecclestone and bloody ignore Irwin, Darby and Bruna just because they don't suit your argument.

What's particularly staggering is that he uses Spearing and Darby to support his argument, even though the pair of them utterly contradict what he's saying. It'd be funy if it weren't so damaging.

Bruna is not an Academy graduate, he is a Macia signing who has probably never been to Kirkby.

But you're right, since Usher's article, Kelly, Darby and Spearing all played against PSV.
However, this is partly due to the UEFA quota rules.
Usher might argue that were there no restriction on foreign players, it would have been San Jose, Plessis and Mendy making their Champions League debuts.
I'm not saying that's true, just playing devil's advocate (sort of).

The situation is developing with the negotiations over Rafa's new deal.
Today in the Times, Kenny D is quoted as saying:
"The big issue in Liverpool has been Rafa's contract.
The finance and the length isn't an issue for him, he'll get it no problem.
The thing is whether he'll be allowed to manage the way he wants to. Control everything that's relevant to the 1st team.
The working conditions for Rafa are more important than anything else."
And Oliver Kay says:
"The hold up with his contract is his insistence on extending his powers to include the youth academy."

So we'll see....

[hesbighesred]

Right, let me go through this again.

Usher includes players such as Adrajevic and Kakaniclic...foreign players, bought young, who have played at academy level.

If they count, so does Bruna, so does Nemeth, so does Pacheco as none of them went straight into the reserves. All have played for us in games at under 18 level, and not just youth cup. There's a lot of those. Gulasci is another one. Simon has played for the u18's.

"Macia signings go straight to Melwood, because The Academy have their own scouts and transfer budget."

So, did Lauri Della Valle, who was personally encouraged to join by Rafa, have nothing whatsoever to do with Macia?

If not, then clearly Rafa has no issue getting personally involved in Academy signings who he rates. If he is a Macia signing, then Usher or his source was lying/as near to as makes no difference.

Even ignoring the foreigners and the ones like Anderson who I'm pretty sure have played for the u18's we still have Darby and Spearing.

Darby graduated from the academy last year and is already on the fringes of the first team. Surely if that allegation has any basis in fact, Darby should be nowhere near the first team?

I know your not criticising Rafa personally, but that specific part of the argument is so full of serious holes is untrue, and there's clowns all over the place already using it as a stick to beat Rafa with.

I'm not sticking my hands over my ears and pretending there's no problems, I just have serious, serious issues with that part of the whole argument because there are multiple players who totally disprove the thrust of what he's saying.

Seperate budget? I guess so, I don't have any evidence to the contrary...but that Rafa is more or less refusing to workwith the academy...well what in the hell is Della Valle doing there then? Is he made up? What about Gulasci? What about Bouzanis for crying out loud?

If Bouzanis was NOT signed by Macia, then clearly Rafa IS willing to promote academy graduates.

If he WAS signed by Macia, clearly some of those players DO go through the academy.

Either way, Usher/his source are lying, or exaggerating that particular point so far that there is no meaningful difference.

[TSC]

Either way, Usher/his source are lying, or exaggerating that particular point so far that there is no meaningful difference.

Yep maybe Dave was exaggerating.  Don't think he's blatently lie, although you never know if he's an agenda.  But I've been reading his fanzine for years (which is excelent by the way) and he's never struck me as the type.

Where I think Dave's analysis and subsequent view may fall short, in common with many posts here, is failing to concentrate on the crux of the problem. 

You need to sort strategy etc out at the top first before you address it lower down.  The ownership and relations between Rafa / Rick / Laurel & Hardy are key and need to be sorted first before addressing problems at the academy.

If you're unlucky enough to get cancer of the colon, you don't treat the colon frst.  You treat the cancer.  The colon will then look after itself.

[hesbighesred]

I should read more of Usher's stuff to be fair, but if it wasn't him, it was his source, and he said himself something like 'the evidence points strongly to that'...namely Rafa blocking academy graduates.

Since Darby exists, and Bouzanis exists, and more, how can this be true?

I understand it's an issue that arouses passions, especially for those born and living in Liverpool...of course it does. Which makes it all the more important to give the information you've been given at least some kind of second look, which is all it would take to see names like Darby and Bouzanis and Della Valle etc

I do agree completely that the the whole issue is looking at the wrong area, you're quite right. Roy is bang on when he says these things are symptoms rather than the disease itself.

[KingKolo]

My understanding is that foreign players like Kacaniklic, Asdarevic and Dalla Valle were spotted by Academy scouts and then signed using money from the Academy transfer budget.
Whereas Pacheco, Nemeth, Bruna, Bouzanis, Gulacsi and Simon were spotted by Macia's team and signed using the 1st team transfer budget.

I could be wrong about this, but I don't remember any of the 2nd list being on the Academy list.
That is not to say they didn't play for the under18s in the under18 league or the FA Youth Cup, but that they would have done their daily training at Melwood rather than in Kirkby at the Academy.

Playing for the under18s does not make you an Academy player.

Now obviously, this in itself doesn't mean Rafa is working to some sort of bitter anti-Parry agenda and deliberately writing off the chances of all Academy players.

However, while I'd have to take your word that Dalla Valle was personally encouraged by Rafa, assuming it's true, it does not single-handedly disprove the idea of poor communications between Melwood and the Academy either.

In my view, Darby and Spearing do not constitute much of an argument against Usher's conclusion either.
I'm no expert, I don't see the players training, and there's not been much of a chance to see Spearing and Darby playing competetively.
But I'd much rather see Darby given a real chance as back-up right-back than Degen, and I think if Rafa rates Lucas higher than Spearing (which is up to him, I won't digress any further here) then he should give the little fella a loan-move, because he's too good for Reserve football.

My feeling is that players such as Kelly, Spearing and Darby are only getting the action that they are getting because of the UEFA quota system, and therefore do not necessarily disprove Usher's allegations.

I'll reiterate, I admit a haven't a clue compared to Benitez, and I'm not arguing against his decisions in this thread.
But I also think there's some confusion here regarding what makes an Academy players.
For the Academy to succeed, their own players have to occasionally make the grade, even if it's only once every few years.
And right now, that seems impossible.

I think we're all in agreement that G+H/Parry/Rafa is the issue here, and we can all pat ourselves on the back having come to the same conclusion regarding symptoms, causes, and which of those two ought to be treated.

[royhendo]

gary mcallister is available...

can we park the 'us v them' stuff now we've covered it then?

[Slave]

Now obviously, this in itself doesn't mean Rafa is working to some sort of bitter anti-Parry agenda and deliberately writing off the chances of all Academy players.

That's the thing though, if it is true, I doubt it's an act of spite. Isn't it more likely that it is a political act and he is highlighting Parry's impotence to the owners? By not promoting any of the youths that Parry has been directly or indirectly involved in bringing to the club, he is effectively making Parry's contribution worthless and with the reported clause that Rafa has asked to be put into his contract, it shows that he believes his "plan" might have payed off.

Of course this is speculation so don't shoot me HBHR

[hesbighesred]

Goeff - LDV - you're right that he was brought in by the academy and Malcolm Elias (academy scout)...Rafa was part of the delegation that met him to encourage him to join and I'm sure I remember him saying something about being staggered that Rafa contacted him personally.

Anyway, apologies Roy, I've clearly said enough on the matter. I wasn't intentionally trying ot make things into Us Vs Them but it's going that way isn't it? So...sorry feller.

----------------------------------------

Gary Mcallister would seem a good candidate for the kind of 'liason' role you were talking about, I'd love to have him back at the club. I'm not sure he'd be interested in a non-coaching type role though, even if it were for Liverpool, though maybe the Hamberg type role might?

I'm thinking also that maybe someone from the Real Madrid system would be perfect for the Hamberg role of academy chief? This could be an independent appointment with his own ideas, not under Rafa's direct control yet one feels that, given that's the youth system Rafa himself always refers to, and got his (valuable) experience from, maybe this would be someone Rafa could work with quite easily...plus Rafa's so respected their that even a strong mindied amobitious individual with their own ideas would welcome the opportunity to learn from/share ideas with Rafa?

That said, I still think it's somewhat mad that we have a massively respected youth development expert at the helm yet we're reluctant to reshape the youth structures in his image...there has to be some way we can let him put the foundations in place but then make the running of it independent?

[hesbighesred]

Of course this is speculation so don't shoot me HBHR

***Checks barrel, inspects sights, inserts cartridges, clicks gun shut, goes into firing stance...takes careful aim...***

[nocturnalvin]

If i were part of the boardroom, and the manager wants absolute full control of everything, i would be worried. Its about balance of power, it exists in the commercial world, and it SHOULD exist in our football club. Don't get me wrong, i am not anti-Rafa, but i would hate that one person be given so much power.

[Manila Kop]

gary mcallister is available...

can we park the 'us v them' stuff now we've covered it then?

Was he offered the Academy job before Hamberg?  Or am I confusing that with the assistant manager position Sammy's currently occupying?

[Manila Kop]

If i were part of the boardroom, and the manager wants absolute full control of everything, i would be worried. Its about balance of power, it exists in the commercial world, and it SHOULD exist in our football club. Don't get me wrong, i am not anti-Rafa, but i would hate that one person be given so much power.

Nocturn, giving Rafa power over the Academy is not the same as having absolutely no oversight over his activities.  From what we read in the papers, Rafa is asking for "more control" over the Academy - which gives us a wide leeway of interpretation.  Assuming that we take it to the most logical extreme, which is that Rafa wants to be involved in the formulation of Academy recruitment policies, training, staffing and the like - the Board will still have say over the most important matters i.e. if Rafa wanted to close the Academy down for example.

It's like a man was hired to be CEO of an ailing company.  The company used to be the leading firm in its industry but over the last few years its flow of profits has declined and its competitors have caught up because they've invested in newer, better products and more modern management processes.  The CEO's brief is to revive the company's fortunes and restore it to a position of leadership in its segment.  To make the revamp successful, the CEO should have the power to change whatever he sees fit in the company - with approval from the Board on the most significant changes.  However, the Board tells the CEO that while he has control over the manufacturing process, the research & development department remains outside his control - the same department where the flow of new products that can help revive profits will come from.  They're effectively tying one of the CEO's hands behind his back. 

That's what our Board is doing to Rafa - he's asked to revive Liverpool's dynasty, but over an important aspect in which we've fallen behind - our development of young, title-winning caliber players, he's being told that it's effectively none of his business.  To rub salt in, it's an area in which he has a lot of expertise and experience in.  It would be like General Motors hired the guy who developed the Prius from Toyota to be their CEO, but then tells him that he can't have any influence on GM's new car development because he just doesn't understand "GM way" of making them...the same "GM way" that's fallen behind the likes of Toyota in developing cutting edge new cars.

[hesbighesred]

It's like a man was hired to be CEO of an ailing company.  The company used to be the leading firm in its industry but over the last few years its flow of profits has declined and its competitors have caught up because they've invested in newer, better products and more modern management processes.  The CEO's brief is to revive the company's fortunes and restore it to a position of leadership in its segment.  To make the revamp successful, the CEO should have the power to change whatever he sees fit in the company - with approval from the Board on the most significant changes.  However, the Board tells the CEO that while he has control over the manufacturing process, the research & development department remains outside his control - the same department where the flow of new products that can help revive profits will come from.  They're effectively tying one of the CEO's hands behind his back. 

Good point well made, that was a spot on analogy - so good it was almost a simile - speaking metaphorically of course.

[manifest]

That's what our Board is doing to Rafa - he's asked to revive Liverpool's dynasty, but over an important aspect in which we've fallen behind - our development of young, title-winning caliber players, he's being told that it's effectively none of his business.  To rub salt in, it's an area in which he has a lot of expertise and experience in.  It would be like General Motors hired the guy who developed the Prius from Toyota to be their CEO, but then tells him that he can't have any influence on GM's new car development because he just doesn't understand "GM way" of making them...the same "GM way" that's fallen behind the likes of Toyota in developing cutting edge new cars.

and this paragraph is just as good manila.

[royhendo]

here's a little devil's advocate-style grenade for the debate...

we've thus far assumed in the debate that the fergie/wenger root-to-fruit power model is a good thing, and something that ought to be copied...

...however, arsenal fans and media commentators are arguing at the moment that wenger has too much discretion and power, and that his fundamentalist approach based on his 'vision of how things should be' is actually starting to cost them and put them at risk.

so... are there lessons to be learned from the wenger situation? can we afford to let one person dictate our vision of how football should be played or how the footballing side of the club should be run?

should checks be put in place to that end?

for me, it's a balancing act. you need to empower the man in the hot seat as best you can, but at the same time you need to ensure comprehensive review based on the things your organisation values most...

thoughts?

[KingKolo]

here's a little devil's advocate-style grenade for the debate...

we've thus far assumed in the debate that the fergie/wenger root-to-fruit power model is a good thing, and something that ought to be copied...

...however, arsenal fans and media commentators are arguing at the moment that wenger has too much discretion and power, and that his fundamentalist approach based on his 'vision of how things should be' is actually starting to cost them and put them at risk.

so... are there lessons to be learned from the wenger situation? can we afford to let one person dictate our vision of how football should be played or how the footballing side of the club should be run?

should checks be put in place to that end?

for me, it's a balancing act. you need to empower the man in the hot seat as best you can, but at the same time you need to ensure comprehensive review based on the things your organisation values most...

thoughts?

I don't think Ferguson does have root-to-fruit control.
Whatever you might say about the crass, strawberry nosed, charmless old fart, in my opinion he has shown himself to be fairly skilled in the art of devolution.
The likes of Brian Kidd, Steve Mclaren, Walter Smith and Quieroz have mostly gone onto relative success in their own
right.

Could Pat Rice ever be offered the job of coaching Real Madrid or England?
I might be wrong, but I doubt it.

So from that point of view, there is further argument against having a manager with total control, since football's most modern evolution has proved too great a hurdle for Wenger, but not for Ferguson.
(Although clearly having the extra cash to spend hasn't hurt Fergie any)

However, having said all of that, I doubt Rafa even wants *total* control of the Academy.
I reckon he probably just wants a bit more input than he's currently getting.

It's basically impossible to know what's best for the club without a much better understanding of how the departments link together and what Rafa's relative strengths and weaknesses are.
For example, with a somewhat spotty transfer market record and his most notable successes having involved mostly inherited players, PERHAPS it's possible to call he and his scouting team's credentials into question.
Therefore, should he be in control of Youth Scouting as well, or would Elias be better left to get on with it?

My feeling is that he ought to have strategic input and therefore a certain amount of control over Academy affairs, so that the Academy are reading from exactly the same page as the 1st team set-up.
But I would be against him having the power to hire and fire.
So the likes of Owens and Elias (who both have pretty good credentials) should remain in post, rather than a fleet of Spanish Youth coaches arriving.

But to be honest, all of this stuff needs a really decent club-secretary/chief exec (call it what you will) to coordinate it, and that man has to have a good working relationship with Benitez.

[royhendo]

i'm not talking about delegation though geoff, i'm talking about accountability.

nobody's holding wenger accountable for his failures at the moment, and the arsenal fans are starting to demand that.

[Manila Kop]

i'm not talking about delegation though geoff, i'm talking about accountability.

nobody's holding wenger accountable for his failures at the moment, and the arsenal fans are starting to demand that.

As I said in my analogy Roy, managers deserve total control if they provide a compelling vision for the club...with the board providing oversight over the major strategic decisions taken.  It works the same in corporations all over the world, a balancing act between the CEO who oversees day-to-day control and the Board which has to approve major strategic directions.  To me, the failure of Wenger's strategy is that he has been given carte blanche without a strong counterbalance in place given the maneuverings within Arsena's board...Usmanov, Kroenke, and now Bracewell-Smith all entering the fray and Peter Hill-Wood desperately trying to preserve control with Danny Fiszman.  Coupled with the departure of David Dein, I don't think it's any accident that Wenger's 'lost the plot' at precisely the same time when the fissures in Arsenal started to show.

The most successful English clubs have always been double acts...Kenyon and then Gill with Ferguson, Dein with Wenger.  Even our own managerial dynasty was helped immensely by the presence of supportive and forward-thinking members of the board - Shankly had Eric Sawyer, Paisley Fagan and Dalglish had Peter Robinson.  There has to be a partnership between the boardroom and the bootroom in all these successful models.

(I may have gotten names and facts jumbled up as I'm pissed at the moment, but I think that was coherent enough)