Author Topic: Bitcoin Thread  (Read 3876 times)

Offline thejbs

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Bitcoin Thread
« on: July 22, 2019, 02:17:54 pm »
I feel that locking the thread on Bitcoin is unfair. It's currently legal to buy/own/use cryptocurrencies and the thread was relatively genial and was an interesting resource. Conversely, RAWK allows threads on IPTV, Kodi, streaming football and torrenting TV/Films/Apps that are of dubious legality or explicitly illegal.

Maybe the thread could be moved out of news/current affairs and into the boozer or tech sections if it's inappropriate for current affairs?

Offline Something Worse

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2019, 05:17:05 pm »
I feel that locking the thread on Bitcoin is unfair. It's currently legal to buy/own/use cryptocurrencies and the thread was relatively genial and was an interesting resource. Conversely, RAWK allows threads on IPTV, Kodi, streaming football and torrenting TV/Films/Apps that are of dubious legality or explicitly illegal.

Maybe the thread could be moved out of news/current affairs and into the boozer or tech sections if it's inappropriate for current affairs?

I found it super interesting personally - conman's posts were very detailed and well thought out.
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

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Offline Chakan

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2019, 05:23:07 pm »
Very odd that “people have lost a whole lot of money on bitcoin” yet there’s a whole sub forum for betting.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2019, 05:32:10 pm »
I'll respond in detail later.

Very odd that “people have lost a whole lot of money on bitcoin” yet there’s a whole sub forum for betting.

Not really. I'd bin the betting threads as well if I could. I've seen plenty of people's lives ruined by betting. The difference between gambling and bitcoin is that one is a leisure activity where everyone knows the odds are with the bookies. The other is portrayed as a sure thing - an 'investment that will always grow.

This is a typical claim:

Quote
I consider it more of a risk to not invest in Bitcoin, than to invest, as the maths & ten years of data behind bitcoin strongly point to it increasing in value, considerably.
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Offline Chakan

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2019, 05:35:08 pm »
I'll respond in detail later.

Not really. I'd bin the betting threads as well if I could. I've seen plenty of people's lives ruined by betting. The difference between gambling and bitcoin is that one is a leisure activity where everyone knows the odds are with the bookies. The other is portrayed as a sure thing - an 'investment that will always grow.

This is a typical claim:


I guess it depends how you view the bitcoin technology though. I mean there is never a sure thing in life ever. You need to consider it like a volatile stock market. Or a bet where the odds can change. People who blindly go into bitcoin deserve to lose money.

Bitcoin has been a leisure activity for me personally , it’s an investment that may or may not pay off, just like my investment ina penny stock.

Offline Something Worse

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2019, 05:38:23 pm »
I guess it depends how you view the bitcoin technology though. I mean there is never a sure thing in life ever. You need to consider it like a volatile stock market. Or a bet where the odds can change. People who blindly go into bitcoin deserve to lose money.

Bitcoin has been a leisure activity for me personally , it’s an investment that may or may not pay off, just like my investment ina penny stock.

Just like my annual bet on the Browns winning the Superbowl!
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2019, 05:44:17 pm »
I guess it depends how you view the bitcoin technology though. I mean there is never a sure thing in life ever. You need to consider it like a volatile stock market. Or a bet where the odds can change. People who blindly go into bitcoin deserve to lose money.

Bitcoin has been a leisure activity for me personally , it’s an investment that may or may not pay off, just like my investment ina penny stock.

That's fair enough - I don't think that's true of everyone though.

I think a pause for reflection and a discussion about what the thread is actually for isn't a bad thing.
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09/03/2011 08:04
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Offline Chakan

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2019, 05:50:13 pm »
That's fair enough - I don't think that's true of everyone though.

I think a pause for reflection and a discussion about what the thread is actually for isn't a bad thing.

Fair enough.

For some people though betting isn’t a leisure activity. Everything is moderation would be the key for most things.

Offline thejbs

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2019, 11:56:31 pm »
That's fair enough - I don't think that's true of everyone though.

I think a pause for reflection and a discussion about what the thread is actually for isn't a bad thing.

OK. That's fair. Maybe move it to the tech/science forum?

Offline 1892tillforever

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2019, 09:24:13 am »
Fair enough.

For some people though betting isn’t a leisure activity. Everything is moderation would be the key for most things.
100%. I bet far too often; but an upcoming move is forcing me to rein it in. Not everyone can do that and for me, bookmakers are human parasites.

I view Bitcoin and crypto as massive risks. I've invested (taken a chance with) in them knowing full well that there's a chance it can go arseways in a hurry. I've considered investing more but will not since my existing investment is at the limit of what I am comfortable with.

I'll respond in detail later.

Not really. I'd bin the betting threads as well if I could. I've seen plenty of people's lives ruined by betting. The difference between gambling and bitcoin is that one is a leisure activity where everyone knows the odds are with the bookies. The other is portrayed as a sure thing - an 'investment that will always grow.

This is a typical claim:

I wouldn't say it is 'typical'. A lot of people strongly believe in Bitcoin but that doesn't mean they feel it is a guaranteed win. To be fair to Conman, he is not portraying it as a 'sure thing' and did advise caution. To say 'it is more of a risk not to invest' could technically mean there's a 50.1% chance of it succeeding against a 49.9% chance of it tanking.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 09:27:03 am by 1892tillforever »

Offline conman

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2019, 11:56:39 am »
How nice of you to cherrypick Alan.

Conman:
I consider it more of a risk to not invest in Bitcoin, than to invest, as the maths & ten years of data behind bitcoin strongly point to it increasing in value, considerably.

I also said:

Quote
It is early days and we all most not assume unilaterally that it's rapid progress will continue and as investors, we must always diversify, as nothing is guaranteed.

I also backed up everything with data, analysis & solid reason.



Offline conman

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2019, 07:01:56 pm »
To say 'it is more of a risk not to invest' could technically mean there's a 50.1% chance of it succeeding against a 49.9% chance of it tanking.

To clarify this statement, i mean the probability lies in favour of bitcoin 5x than decreasing 1x. This is based on maths only, backed by 10 years of solid data. It's not based on opinion or for that matter on spurious comparisons to tech products or existing stocks.

Ocourse, there can be unknown variables which can alter the expected outcome, despite the data. So we must always exersise caution, must always understand what we are investing in and must always diversify. I have always stated this. No one should invest more than they are comfortable losing.

The alternative is that you keep your money in sterling, wait for Brexit and lose half your wealth (and that's being kind!)
The alternative is to keep the money in Euro/Dollars and lose a lot of your wealth due to the ECB/Fed printing money to deal with this pending recession.

Even if these two particular scenarios didn't exist, you'd still lose your wealth YOY keeping it in savings, due to inflation. infact, the much heralded S&P500 is not actually increasing in value, it's merely been matcing currency inflation for the past 10 years.



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EAQADSkU0AE8sBM?format=jpg&name=large

There's a very limited number of hard monies which cannot be forged, gold and bitcoin are chief among these. Those are the two that we should I'll be monitoring closely as this next economic apocolypse draws closer.

Anyway, i'll leave it there. That's me signing out of Bitcoin on RAWK.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 07:10:09 pm by conman »

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2019, 10:26:49 am »
I have some pennies in bitcoin and made some profit but won't invest anymore just because of the risk, instead happy to leave what I have in and hope it grows more with the knowledge if it doesn't I have taken my initial investment out already so no loss. I appreciate all the data Conman gives but essentially there is no sure thing and as Conman also says everyone should exercise caution because of this.

I have friends talking of bitcoin going to 100k etc and although that maybe true in many years time I won't invest anymore due to the risk. In my opinion some lucky people got very lucky putting some money into bitcoin back in the day when it was worth next to nothing, now people are desperate for that to happen again but there is just so much volatility. No doubt if you know what you are doing (meaning professionally researching it and how to trade for many many months) you can make a lot off day trading and the like. Otherwise it'd be smart to put something in but as Conman says only what can be afforded to lose.

Back on topic although I understand why it was locked, I too find it a bit unfair this was shelved while there is also a whole section dedicated to betting. Although I'd happily say if the betting section goes this should also stay gone too, but either both should go or both stay.

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2019, 06:29:16 pm »
It was a really interesting thread with the topic being discussed in a civil manner and no one giving out abuse. Can't fathom why it shuold be locked.

Offline deano2727

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2019, 08:27:24 am »
It was a really interesting thread with the topic being discussed in a civil manner and no one giving out abuse. Can't fathom why it shuold be locked.

Agreed. We are all big enough and ugly enough to make our own choices. Nobody should be trying to offer financial advice, nor should people be taking other people's opinions in posts as such.

I also feel its a fair point about the betting/crypto in regards to losing money.

Alan, I think you should put your personal dislike for it aside and let those interested in it discuss it.

EDIT: Maybe have the thread flagged, like some sensitive threads are, warning that people posting financial advice like posts will not be tolerated.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 08:41:02 am by deano2727 »

Offline Jake

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2019, 06:16:28 pm »
Hope it gets reopened for discussion (I still don't get it, I asked conman for a quick answer and got a dissertation ;D) but maybe with a ban on actively trying to push it (of course those who have invested it would big it up, as if people believe them and dive in, their profits grow).
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Offline Claire.

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2019, 06:50:58 pm »
EDIT: Maybe have the thread flagged, like some sensitive threads are, warning that people posting financial advice like posts will not be tolerated.

but then would mean we have to give it special attention and for something, if you're interested enough to invest, you can do research and talk about it in a more specialised forum.

Not buying the comparisons to betting. There isn't a shop at the end of my road where I can throw a fiver on bitcoin, but I can sure as shit stick it on a horse. You're betting on a specific event, a horse race, football result, you know what you are putting on it and the expected return and WHEN that return may come. Investments are an entirely different beast.

Offline Something Worse

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2019, 06:57:53 pm »
but then would mean we have to give it special attention and for something, if you're interested enough to invest, you can do research and talk about it in a more specialised forum.

Not buying the comparisons to betting. There isn't a shop at the end of my road where I can throw a fiver on bitcoin, but I can sure as shit stick it on a horse. You're betting on a specific event, a horse race, football result, you know what you are putting on it and the expected return and WHEN that return may come. Investments are an entirely different beast.

The gambling comparison is because people were comparing the damage done by failed investments on bitcoin to the damage done by gambling addiction - there are far more people who have lost life-altering amounts of money (and worse) due to gambling than due to bitcoin, so it seems off to have the bitcoin thread locked for (the potential of) that while having a subforum for gambling.
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2019, 12:21:33 pm »
Agreed. We are all big enough and ugly enough to make our own choices. Nobody should be trying to offer financial advice, nor should people be taking other people's opinions in posts as such.

I also feel its a fair point about the betting/crypto in regards to losing money.

Alan, I think you should put your personal dislike for it aside and let those interested in it discuss it.

EDIT: Maybe have the thread flagged, like some sensitive threads are, warning that people posting financial advice like posts will not be tolerated.

If it’s ok I’ll use this post to reply but the response is to the overall thread so far.

First it’s worth repeating that this is a Liverpool football club website. We aren’t Reddit. We host threads on many subjects but there’s no obligation to host subjects that aren’t core to Liverpool, the club or the city.

And the level of civility isn’t relative either. The politics threads are some of the most argumentative on the site but they are interesting to enough people and crucially there is enough interest from the moderating team for them to be managed.

There are a lot of threads that used to be ok but are no longer appropriate, partly because the world moves on and because the moderating team changes and evolves.

There used threads with non-pc jokes, negative references to homosexuality and ‘laddo birds’ threads that no longer belong on here. If one or more of the moderating team thinks a thread is problematic and no one wants to moderate it then it’s locked. Simple as that. We’ll always review it as we are here.

We have rules and guidelines about thread domination. I’ve made regular interjections to try and balance the, in my view, overly confident promotion of bitcoin, hoping that one poster in particular might take a step back a bit but the hints haven’t been taken. I think crypto currencies and their history is worthy of discussion - especially the dodgy place that they come from and the dodgy conspiracy theory terminology that goes them. I tend to find that when people start talking about the evils of ‘fiat currency’ and reserve banks then the Rothschilds and worse aren’t that far behind.

On the bitcoin/betting comparison. At least one other moderator would happily ban betting threads as well. The main difference is that gambling is recognised as an addiction and no one on the gambling threads is saying that gambling is a sure fire way to make money.

As for my personal dislikes. It’s not bitcoin itself, it’s the bullshit and misinformation that goes with it. I also don’t think we’re the right place to host investment tips. We aren’t set up for it and we can’t verify the qualifications of people promoting investments.

So if people would like a thread about crypto currencies that reports news or discusses the technology behind them and it’s potential uses then we can open one. If people are looking for an investment tips thread there are other places to get that information and frankly, if you’re getting it off a football website you might as well reply to that Nigerian prince who keeps emailing you.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 12:26:44 pm by Alan_X »
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2019, 12:24:12 pm »
The gambling comparison is because people were comparing the damage done by failed investments on bitcoin to the damage done by gambling addiction - there are far more people who have lost life-altering amounts of money (and worse) due to gambling than due to bitcoin, so it seems off to have the bitcoin thread locked for (the potential of) that while having a subforum for gambling.

The gambling comparison was brought up as an attempt to justify the Bitcoin thread. The amounts are irrelevant. As Claire points out, they are completely different things and the comparison is irrelevant.
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Offline Barneylfc∗

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2019, 12:40:34 pm »
hoping that one poster in particular might take a step back a bit but the hints haven’t been taken.

His username amuses me.
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Offline Something Worse

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2019, 04:50:33 pm »
The gambling comparison was brought up as an attempt to justify the Bitcoin thread. The amounts are irrelevant. As Claire points out, they are completely different things and the comparison is irrelevant.

It was used as an example of a method of trying to make money quickly. Gambling is addictive and can be destructive, and I don't think you can say gambling is ok but investing in Bitcoin isn't. Especially when it's so easy to gamble and quite the opposite for Bitcoin.

I think crypto currencies and their history is worthy of discussion - especially the dodgy place that they come from and the dodgy conspiracy theory terminology that goes them. I tend to find that when people start talking about the evils of ‘fiat currency’ and reserve banks then the Rothschilds and worse aren’t that far behind.

This is also unfair. You can't assume anti-Semitism will come up when it hasn't been said or even hinted at. As you pointed out in the same post, there are homophobic/racist/whatever posts throughout the history of RAWK, - even some by posters who are currently mods - they don't represent all Liverpool fans or RAWK posters and neither do the scumbags and nuts represent all people that take an interest in Bitcoin.
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

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Offline Claire.

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2019, 06:56:12 am »
there are homophobic/racist/whatever posts throughout the history of RAWK, - even some by posters who are currently mods

Excusez-moi?

First of all you reply to me like I'm some sort of idiot who can't read when it was you who didn't get what I was saying and now you're throwing this one down.

Offline Something Worse

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2019, 07:11:30 am »
Excusez-moi?

First of all you reply to me like I'm some sort of idiot who can't read when it was you who didn't get what I was saying and now you're throwing this one down.

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=240859.msg5621879#msg5621879

There's a few more like that, all of a similar age. I assume they weren't mods at the time, and very few people have used slurs like that recently.

And my reply wasn't supposed to be condescending at all, just explaining the original point vs your interpretation of it.
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

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Offline 24/7

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2019, 05:59:50 pm »
Well if you're gonna trawl through the post history of mods just to make a point like that, fire away. Just do it somewhere else.

We've got better things to do than babysit that nonsense.

As Alan said, Liverpool FC website, mainly handling topics directly or indirectly related to the club, the city, the culture, the people.

Any thread locked is at our discretion and we sometimes discuss in the Staff Room topics that are locked, to see if they can be opened up.

My vote is no. None of us needs to justify it either.

Offline Jake

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2019, 09:26:57 pm »
I don't get how "John/whoever used to say faggot" (as did many I'm sure, and remember those words our grandparents used to use!) lends any weight to the argument to open the bitcoin thread ;D I thought the point was that it might lose some fool their money, not it used to be acceptable back in the day.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2019, 10:18:23 pm »
It was used as an example of a method of trying to make money quickly. Gambling is addictive and can be destructive, and I don't think you can say gambling is ok but investing in Bitcoin isn't. Especially when it's so easy to gamble and quite the opposite for Bitcoin.

I could say but I didn't. Gambling threads were brought up by the bitcoin promoters as justification for keeping the bitcoin thread open. They have nothing to do with each other and each needs to be justified on its own merits. All you are doing by banging on about the comparison is increasing the chance that we might ban the betting threads. That will make you very popular I'm sure.

Quote
This is also unfair. You can't assume anti-Semitism will come up when it hasn't been said or even hinted at. As you pointed out in the same post, there are homophobic/racist/whatever posts throughout the history of RAWK, - even some by posters who are currently mods - they don't represent all Liverpool fans or RAWK posters and neither do the scumbags and nuts represent all people that take an interest in Bitcoin.

Sorry lad but you have quite spectacularly missed the point. It's not surprising as you often seem to stick your oar in when you don't fully understand what's going on.

If you'd spent as long as I have looking at conspiracy theories you would know that tracking back to the source, the demonisation of 'fiat currencies' has it's root in the Jewish global banking conspiracy. I wasn't saying that anyone promoting bitcoin as an alternative to 'fiat currency' knew about its origins (even though I posted about it on here) and I while I accept that people may be unaware that they are repeating far-right, anti-semitic tropes it doesn't make them any the less anti-semitic.

As for your shitty trawling of past posts. Again, spectacularly missing yet another point. It wasn't that the people who posted in the laddo threads were bad people. It's that all of us, including the moderating team past and present, were tacitly accepting of those things even releatively recently HAVE MOVED ON AND WE DON'T ACCEPT THEM NOW.

So you drag up a post from a thoroughly decent man who posted something he wouldn't post now. Bravo mate. Well done.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 10:21:38 pm by Alan_X »
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2019, 10:19:44 pm »
I don't get how "John/whoever used to say faggot" (as did many I'm sure, and remember those words our grandparents used to use!) lends any weight to the argument to open the bitcoin thread ;D I thought the point was that it might lose some fool their money, not it used to be acceptable back in the day.

He's killed it dead. I was thinking about re-opening it but it seems it brings out something unpleasant so fuck it.

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Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
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Re: Bitcoin Thread
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2019, 07:11:17 am »
He's killed it dead. I was thinking about re-opening it but it seems it brings out something unpleasant so fuck it.

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