Topic: Does the FA cup really matter any more?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

As soon as the FA told Manchester United not to bother with the FA cup when they went off on their money spinning romp, that was the FA Cup pretty much dead.

The FA Confirmed that their only trophy is worthless.

[BarryCrocker]

We should let the Falklands and Gibraltar enter...

And Bondi.

Considering its the oldest cup in football and something we've won 7 times with only 3 teams surpassing us for wins I think its definitely still relevant.

And who will ever forget Stevie G's 35 yard screamer in the 90+ minute to get us through in 2006?

White-out this wall and you white-out our history.

[lamonti]

They fucked it a couple of times in the last few years - when they let United duck out of it and when they moved the final to 5.30. Oh, and moving the semis to Wembley.

I know these reasons are generally trotted out to explain the demise of the FA Cup, and they play contributory roles to an extent, but they are all minor factors. The cups don't matter because the league is more important than ever before.

The other biggest factor is the disparity in wealth of the clubs, leading to the FA Cup constantly being won by whichever of the best 5/6 teams takes the most interest in it.

I don't know how they would work it but they should ditch the league cup, play the FA mostly mid-week and start it earlier (so that the league is not interrupted), ditch replays after third round.

It's just in the way at the moment. It's not a bonus, it's a obstacle.

[red1977]

Football is more financially driven than ever before, for the clubs that are capible of getting into the top four like us, the FA cup holds little value. same for teams that could go down and lose their share of the TV money. Thats why we see a lot of second string sides put out for the FA cup. its no longer high on the list of priorities. Fucking damn shame, because as the domestic premier cup competition it should hold more value, it would make the domestic game more interesting. if there was a way to have a big pay day for winning it, or even champs league qualification, that would see the FA cup back on the agenda for clubs and supporters again, which would be boss.

[Gerry Attrick]

Football is more financially driven than ever before, for the clubs that are capible of getting into the top four like us, the FA cup holds little value. same for teams that could go down and lose their share of the TV money. Thats why we see a lot of second string sides put out for the FA cup. its no longer high on the list of priorities. Fucking damn shame, because as the domestic premier cup competition it should hold more value, it would make the domestic game more interesting. if there was a way to have a big pay day for winning it, or even champs league qualification, that would see the FA cup back on the agenda for clubs and supporters again, which would be boss.

For me, it's just become tired. Almost every FA Cup tie that sees teams take on lower league opposition follows the same script so to speak. God awful decks, better players getting lumps kicked out of them, lenient refereeing towards the underdog and TV channels practically begging for an upset. If you had a drink for every time you hear 'spirit of the cup' or 'David v Goliath' you'd be absolutely pissed after 10 minutes. It's just boring now. Then you have replays causing fixture congestion and the 3rd round is played after about a dozen games over the festive period.

[bryanod]

The French Cup is wild. Teams from overseas territories can enter, so they've already started next seasons!

Also if get drawn against team two divisions below (I think it is) it is automatically away.

Add in no replays, play some rounds midweek to stop postponing league fixtures come 5th round, and it might get interesting again.

[CheshireDave]

It matters a lot to teams further down the football pyramid. It gives the opportunity for a bumper money spinning tie, it gives the players a chance to test themselves against much better players and gives fans of smaller teams the opportunity to see the team they love in unfamiliar surroundings.

Does it matter to the Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpools of the game? Not as much as it once did I suspect.

No idea how anyone can prefer the League Cup over the FA to be honest it's a reserve competition played largely in empty grounds.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Here is what I would do:

- Restructure the competition to stop there being so many walkovers early on. Maybe a pre-third round where all the Premier League teams play each other, eliminating 10.
- Play the 3rd round on a Saturday because it is the most exciting round, and the round where upsets happen. Then play the remaining rounds mid-week.
- Get rid of replays and don't even bother with extra-time. If its a draw, straight to penalties.
- Get rid of semi-finals at Wembley. Use the Millenium Stadium if you want a big neutral venue that can definitely be used every season.
- Make it worth winning. I don't know how to do this without significantly increasing the prize money (probably not doable) or without offering up a Champions League place (bad idea), but I'm sure there is a way.

Around 15 years ago the problem was that the bigger clubs rested players, but now the bigger problem is the bottom clubs in the Premiership and even the clubs in the Championship playing second string teams. There needs to be an incentive to stop them doing this.

[The North Bank]

You cant choose the size of the fish to fry, when you are starving.

when the seagulls....

[Schmidt]

Here is what I would do:

- Restructure the competition to stop there being so many walkovers early on. Maybe a pre-third round where all the Premier League teams play each other, eliminating 10.
- Play the 3rd round on a Saturday because it is the most exciting round, and the round where upsets happen. Then play the remaining rounds mid-week.
- Get rid of replays and don't even bother with extra-time. If its a draw, straight to penalties.
- Get rid of semi-finals at Wembley. Use the Millenium Stadium if you want a big neutral venue that can definitely be used every season.
- Make it worth winning. I don't know how to do this without significantly increasing the prize money (probably not doable) or without offering up a Champions League place (bad idea), but I'm sure there is a way.

Around 15 years ago the problem was that the bigger clubs rested players, but now the bigger problem is the bottom clubs in the Premiership and even the clubs in the Championship playing second string teams. There needs to be an incentive to stop them doing this.

I feel like this would just result in even more defensive shite, with teams digging in for 90 minutes and lumping it forward at every opportunity with the goal of getting lucky on penalties.

I wonder if some of the TV money for the league games could go to a pot for the cup winners.

[Red_Rich]

Football is more financially driven than ever before, for the clubs that are capible of getting into the top four like us, the FA cup holds little value. same for teams that could go down and lose their share of the TV money. Thats why we see a lot of second string sides put out for the FA cup. its no longer high on the list of priorities. Fucking damn shame, because as the domestic premier cup competition it should hold more value, it would make the domestic game more interesting. if there was a way to have a big pay day for winning it, or even champs league qualification, that would see the FA cup back on the agenda for clubs and supporters again, which would be boss.

CL qualification would diminish the comp even more in my eyes because that’s all it would be seen as ... a trophy for top 4, essentially.

The Europa league is still an unimportant cup to win but it’s been taken a little more seriously now because of the back door route into CL.

Doing that with the FA Cup would just mean the 5th and 6th placed teams at Christmas would prioritize and win it more often than not.

The old glory of the cup has gone because of money, CL and survival in the premier league.

[Giono]

Some good ideas have been mentioned so far like killing the league cup and no weekend matches.

As well, how about Europa League places to both finalists? Better chance for teams lower down to get a reasonable reward for giving it a shot. And if the finalst(s) both qualify fir the CL from league pkay, extend the 2 Europa League spots down to the semifinalists. That would encourage mid table PL teams to go as far as they can. Just getting to the semis could mean something.

And instead of having the third round after Christmas fixtures, why not play the third round on boxing day itself?

[FlashingBlade]

The answer is yes...unless we are knocked out then the answer is no.

[12C]

Probably no coincidence that the Prince Harry/Rachel Zane wedding was announced around the same time (or maybe much earlier) as our game against West Brom. Clearly Klopp had no intention of taking the cup from anyone other than big Liz.

She hasn’t done Wembley for years. Duchess of Kent always used to bags the tickets when we were playing as she was a self confessed red

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

As well, how about Europa League places to both finalists? Better chance for teams lower down to get a reasonable reward for giving it a shot. And if the finalst(s) both qualify fir the CL from league pkay, extend the 2 Europa League spots down to the semifinalists. That would encourage mid table PL teams to go as far as they can. Just getting to the semis could mean something.

The problem with this is that you could quickly destroy England's co-efficient. A couple of seasons with Championship clubs or bottom half Premier League clubs getting knocked out in the Europa League group stages and all of a sudden we as a nation will be given less European places.

Also, given what managers are like at clubs that would qualify, they would rest their players and make a mockery of it anyway ala Martin O'Neill.

[The North Bank]

The answer is yes...unless we are knocked out then the answer is no.

This, it only matters when you win it, mickey mouse otherwise.

[CraigDS]

It's certainly lost its prestige. I remember when I was a kid it was always a big deal to me, but bet if I asked my nephew he wouldn't think the same, I don't think the same either.

Not sure how you get that prestige back now to be honest. Not playing the semi finals at Wembley would be a start but think it's going to take more than that. Not sure increasing the prize (i.e. CL place) is the answer at all.

[didi shamone]

It matters but its massively devalued due to four places going for the champions league. Means its lower priority to top teams. Finances mean staying up is much more important to smaller teams so they put out weakened sides. I'd love for us to win it or any cup as they're the good days as a fan. I mean I was glad we got top four yesterday but I didn't go out celebrating.
So yea it matters but not hugely anymore sadly.

[End Product]

We play too much intense football at Christmas and the third round is an opportunity to rest players. Cut the premier league to 18,  have the league cup semi final over 1 leg.

Get rid of replays. One of the dull things is watching a minnow play for a draw rather than go for a last minute winner.Teams want a juicy replay over advancing.A non league team as well would have more chance of going through playing extra time then pens then a replay at a lush premier league ground.

Wembley is shite, get rid of the semi finals there, ideally have the final rotate between Cardiff . Go back to Old Trafford, Villa Park etc. Have the final at 3pm or put on trains so fans can get home.

Do something mad like a teams away support is entitled to an entire stand behind the goal for the early rounds,  would help get a crazy different atmosphere. Much like when Everton celebrated a corner.

[Jish]

1984–85
Manchester United 1–0 Everton

1985–86
Liverpool 3–1 Everton

1986–87
Coventry City  3–2  Tottenham Hotspur

1987–88
Wimbledon 1–0 Liverpool

1988–89
Liverpool 3–2  Everton

1989–90
Manchester United 3–3  Crystal Palace

1989–90 (R)
Manchester United 1–0 Crystal Palace Wembley Stadium

1990–91
Tottenham Hotspur 2–1  Nottingham Forest Wembley Stadium

1991–92
Liverpool 2–0 Sunderland

1992–93
Arsenal 1–1 Sheffield Wednesday

1992–93 (R)
Arsenal 2–1  Sheffield Wednesday

1993–94
Manchester United 4–0 Chelsea

1994–95
Everton 1–0 Manchester United

1995–96
Manchester United 1–0 Liverpool

1996–97
Chelsea 2–0 Middlesbrough

1997–98
Arsenal 2–0 Newcastle United

1998–99
Manchester United 2–0 Newcastle United

1999–2000
Chelsea 1–0 Aston Villa

2000–01
Liverpool 2–1 Arsenal

2001–02
Arsenal 2–0 Chelsea

2002–03
Arsenal 1–0 Southampton

2003–04
Manchester United 3–0 Millwall

2004–05
Arsenal 0–0 Manchester United

2005–06
Liverpool 3–3 West Ham United

2006–07
Chelsea 1–0 Manchester United

2007–08
Portsmouth 1–0 Wales Cardiff City

2008–09
Chelsea 2–1 Everton

2009–10
Chelsea 1–0 Portsmouth

2010–11
Manchester City 1–0 Stoke City

2011–12
Chelsea 2–1 Liverpool

2012–13
Wigan Athletic 1–0 Manchester City

2013–14
Arsenal 3–2 Hull City

2014–15
Arsenal 4–0 Aston Villa

2015–16
Manchester United 2–1  Crystal Palace

2016–17
Arsenal 2–1 Chelsea

Every year since 1984 with the exception 2007/08 has had a big club in the final. Its trendy to say it doesn't matter but it clearly does.

The bigger teams can put weakened teams out and maybe do not take it as seriously but they still get there and still win the thing.

It matters

[Kekule]

Sacking a manager after winning the FA Cup was unheard of up until recently. In the last few years Ancelotti, Van Gaal, and potentially Conte, were out on their ear hours after winning it. There were suggestions that winning it in 2012 wouldn’t have saved Kenny either.  That shows you what the big wigs at the bigger clubs think of it.  It’s a good thing to win if it’s in addition to something else, be that another trophy or Champions League qualification. On it’s own it’s not enough, certainly not for the top 6 or so.

Yet the fact that they have a near monopoly on it, Wigan and Portsmouth excepted, shows that the lower clubs aren’t exactly going for it/can’t compete with the larger clubs squad depths. You’d think the mid table premier league clubs would be throwing their all at it, yet they don’t seem to be making much of an impact.

I think as a fan it’s great if you win it but you aren’t going to be losing much sleep if you don’t.

[Jish]

Sacking a manager after winning the FA Cup was unheard of up until recently. In the last few years Ancelotti, Van Gaal, and potentially Conte, were out on their ear hours after winning it. There were suggestions that winning it in 2012 wouldn’t have saved Kenny either.  That shows you what the big wigs at the bigger clubs think of it.  It’s a good thing to win if it’s in addition to something else, be that another trophy or Champions League qualification. On it’s own it’s not enough, certainly not for the top 6 or so.

Yet the fact that they have a near monopoly on it, Wigan and Portsmouth excepted, shows that the lower clubs aren’t exactly going for it/can’t compete with the larger clubs squad depths. You’d think the mid table premier league clubs would be throwing their all at it, yet they don’t seem to be making much of an impact.

I think as a fan it’s great if you win it but you aren’t going to be losing much sleep if you don’t.

Good points.

The big cups care for it more than they let on as it adds to their silverware profile if nothing else

[Upinsmoke]

Only if we are in it!

Seriously though, the whole fa cup ritual went out the window when they changed it to a late kick off and semi's at Wembley.

Only got themselves to blame.

[N0rnIr0nRed]

I still think it's a great competition to win.

[alonsoisared]

To be honest as much as i've mocked Arsenal and Spurs for celebrating getting in the top four like a trophy it is genuinely better to finish there than win the FA Cup. It saddens me to say it because even for me growing up FA Cup final day was brilliant but it's just the way the game has gone; win the cup and it's forgotten by the time the next season starts but finish in the top four and you can look forward to going on the kind of barnstorming european runs that we've put together this year. I know which i'd prefer.

While the importance of the top four has played a part there's other factors too; the semi finals being at Wembley ruin that whole occasion and devalue the act of getting to Wembley. Tottenham playing there this year as well is a joke, if you watch your team at Wembley it should be either be because you're watching the national team or you're watching the Cup final. I also just think the layout of the stadium and the amounts of corporate tickets; when the final was at the Millennium it was proper half and half and made for an amazing atmosphere, you watch the games there now and it's good support behind either goal and then a load of empty seats for 10 minutes at the start and end of each half in the middle. It just doesn't feel like much of an event any more. Give the winner a place in the champions league and you might be talking.

That being said, as others have said it still feels massive once your team is competing for it. Lose in the third/fourth round and it's annoying but you're over it pretty quick. It's like the europa in that respect, I don't even bother watching but then once it's Liverpool in with a shout it feels like the biggest competition in the world.

[Ray K]

It lost all lustre when they stopped having Bob Wilson and Gerald Sinstadt on the team bus with the players while they were playing cards and getting stuck in traffic. 

They even had someone on the helicopter when Brighton decided to take a chopper for some reason. Presumably road works on the A24 or something that year.

[Billy Elliot]

Winning the FA Cup used to be almost as important as winning the League, but winning the Cup was more exciting.  Sadly it's changed.  It used to be the only match broadcast live across the World, now just about anybody would rather come fourth.

The only way to fix it would be to give the Cup Winners a place in the Champions League.  But can't see it happening.  If I had my way the League Cup winners would be in it as well and 2nd, 3rd and 4th would be scrapped.  You should be the Champions of something or other to be in the Champions League. 

[lamonti]

Also if get drawn against team two divisions below (I think it is) it is automatically away.

Add in no replays, play some rounds midweek to stop postponing league fixtures come 5th round, and it might get interesting again.

All smart ideas - particularly the first one. The idea of small teams hoping to draw a tie to get a big pay day is romanticised but it's literally against the principles of the sport and the tournament.

All the FA Cup has going for it is tradition though, so I can see the FA being reluctant to introduce those ideas.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

The FA have to take their share of the blame for its decline in prestige - the semi-finals at Wembley being the main one - and there's definitely a few tweaks which could help it, but the largest factors are a) the Champions League money/prestige and b) the Premier League money/prestige.

At the top end of the game, everything has taken a backseat to those two competitions now. The top four's 'cup final' is getting top four again. The bottom sides' 'cup final' is staying in the Premier League. Football has become more cyclical as a result with less attention and emphasis paid to cup matches. Managers are judged on larger samples, which coincide with the financially more important competition(s). Philosophies & progression are football buzz words.

The rise of sports science in football should not be underestimated either. It's massive and as such a manager will always err on the side of caution when there's less at stake.

The only way you change all of this is, you guessed it, by throwing money at it. The prestige will always follow because boardroom, managers and players' priorities adjust accordingly with fans following suit. There's a reason it's still big for lower-league clubs if they get one of the draws they're looking for, and it's not all about the romance. It's more about the money. Hence why they'd choose a coffer-boosting draw over the romantic victory every day of the week. This grinds my gears and is the biggest reason replays should be scrapped altogether.

[The North Bank]

Nothing beats lifting a trophy, entering a competition and winning it. When you are in the final, you are not bothered about the name of the competition, just winning that final and getting the trophy. I love the fa cup, not priority, but unless you are winning the league/cl every season, dismissing a trophy from a weak position sounds bitter.

I have said for years that the winners should get the 4th CL spot. That would revitalise it big time, like it has done for the Europa league. Still football is about winning trophies.

[redk84]

I still think it's a great competition to win.

just the one domestic cup would probably be the way forwards however...

even if League cup is great and we have lots of history in winning it

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Still football is about winning trophies.

In a historical context it is. In the here and now, as much as I'd like to agree, it can't possibly be. Klopp and Pochettino haven't won a trophy in England (yet), but are largely untouchable with their bosses, fans and media alike.

Wenger won three FA Cup's in four years, yet was the complete opposite. Van Gaal won an FA Cup and was sacked. Dalglish won a League Cup and reached the FA Cup final and was sacked. Mancini reached the FA Cup final and was sacked (with rumours on the morning of the final that he would have been sacked regardless of the outcome). Puel reached a League Cup final and was sacked.

Football is ultimately about entertainment, about pride, about belief, about progression. If trophies come as a part of that, as you'd expect them to if those boxes are being ticked at a big club, all the better. But it isn't the be all and end all for happiness as a football fan

[Jookie]

CL qualification would diminish the comp even more in my eyes because that’s all it would be seen as ... a trophy for top 4, essentially.

The Europa league is still an unimportant cup to win but it’s been taken a little more seriously now because of the back door route into CL.

Doing that with the FA Cup would just mean the 5th and 6th placed teams at Christmas would prioritize and win it more often than not.

The old glory of the cup has gone because of money, CL and survival in the premier league.

The FA Cup has lost it's appeal for a number of reasons. I think there are 2 big reasons. Before the 90's, it was the biggest live domestic footballing event on TV. Was a real occasion for the hardcore footballing fan and the causal fan alike. Nowadays you can watch live football every day on TV if you want. Imagine that being cut down to a handful of games a season and the FA Cup being the biggest game. Everyone would watch it.

In parallel with more live football being available on TV, we saw the rise of both the PL and CL in the 90's. Both as a TV event but probably more so as a money maker for clubs. I think the dual events of more football on TV and the CL becoming the most important competition to be involved in has been the catalyst for the FA Cup to lose it's prestige for the top clubs. It probably took until the 00's before I felt it really lost it's zest but the seeds were planted in the early 90's.

Too much water under the bridge for it to get back it's prestige as one of the most important trophies to win in club football and for FA Cup Final day to be one of the highlights of the football calendar. However, if it wants to regain it's importance then there needs to be a monetary incentive for all clubs to take it seriously. I think the Top 6 still take it serious enough despite the importance of CL qualification. Or have the squads to get through the early rounds without risking getting knocked out. I think it's the teams who are bottom 12 in the Premier League or near the top of the Championship that need to be enticed to field strong teams. Staying in or getting to the PL is too financially important for teams to sacrifice the FA Cup for. Therefore make winning the FA Cup as financially important as staying in the Premier League. The FA probably can't offer a 100M prize money for the winning team. But they could offer a CL place. That's the only way you'll get all the teams interested.

I don't think this is the way to go personally but it's the only option if you are inclined to want to elevate the importance of the FA Cup.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

BT should start putting all of their FA Cup fixtures on freeview,there is no downside for them doing it,in fact if anything they would earn more money from the advertisers.They wouldn't lose any subscribers because people don't sign up with them just for the FA Cup.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

The FA Cup has lost it's appeal for a number of reasons. I think there are 2 big reasons. Before the 90's, it was the biggest live domestic footballing event on TV. Was a real occasion for the hardcore footballing fan and the causal fan alike. Nowadays you can watch live football every day on TV if you want. Imagine that being cut down to a handful of games a season and the FA Cup being the biggest game. Everyone would watch it.

In parallel with more live football being available on TV, we saw the rise of both the PL and CL in the 90's. Both as a TV event but probably more so as a money maker for clubs. I think the dual events of more football on TV and the CL becoming the most important competition to be involved in has been the catalyst for the FA Cup to lose it's prestige for the top clubs. It probably took until the 00's before I felt it really lost it's zest but the seeds were planted in the early 90's.

Too much water under the bridge for it to get back it's prestige as one of the most important trophies to win in club football and for FA Cup Final day to be one of the highlights of the football calendar. However, if it wants to regain it's importance then there needs to be a monetary incentive for all clubs to take it seriously. I think the Top 6 still take it serious enough despite the importance of CL qualification. Or have the squads to get through the early rounds without risking getting knocked out. I think it's the teams who are bottom 12 in the Premier League or near the top of the Championship that need to be enticed to field strong teams. Staying in or getting to the PL is too financially important for teams to sacrifice the FA Cup for. Therefore make winning the FA Cup as financially important as staying in the Premier League. The FA probably can't offer a 100M prize money for the winning team. But they could offer a CL place. That's the only way you'll get all the teams interested.

I don't think this is the way to go personally but it's the only option if you are inclined to want to elevate the importance of the FA Cup.

A bigger monetary incentive for winning it is fine and a good idea, but in reality all that is going to achieve is that the bigger clubs will take it more seriously. It won't make the clubs at the bottom of the Premier League or in the lower leagues take it more seriously because they know they aren't going to win the competition unless a miracle happens aka Wigan (which would be even less likely to happen if the bigger clubs took it seriously).

If the incentives are to be increased, they need to be increased for every round so that clubs earn something worthwhile for getting into the fourth round, then substantially more getting in the fifth round and so on. Or maybe the Championship team that gets the furthest is rewarded with something, likewise for the furthest progressing League One team and so on.

Every game needs something riding on it other than the chance to play one more match that might fuck up your season.

[CraigDS]

A bigger monetary incentive for winning it is fine and a good idea, but in reality all that is going to achieve is that the bigger clubs will take it more seriously. It won't make the clubs at the bottom of the Premier League or in the lower leagues take it more seriously because they know they aren't going to win the competition unless a miracle happens aka Wigan (which would be even less likely to happen if the bigger clubs took it seriously).

If the incentives are to be increased, they need to be increased for every round so that clubs earn something worthwhile for getting into the fourth round, then substantially more getting in the fifth round and so on. Or maybe the Championship team that gets the furthest is rewarded with something, likewise for the furthest progressing League One team and so on.

Every game needs something riding on it other than the chance to play one more match that might fuck up your season.

Yeah I agree with this.

There needs to be incentives at every round to encourage teams who realistically don't have any chance of winning it to put out a strong side.

Thinking out the box, when it comes to the lower league sides, you could maybe reward progression / beating higher league sides with a monetary bonus that goes directly to the playing squad rather than the club (although increase their bonus too).

[QR350]

Of course it matters, but it's nowhere near as prestigious as it once was. Don't even get me started on the Mickey, oh I mean, the League Cup. Most people don't give a shit about it and I personally can't even name the last three winners

[John_P]

The cup competitions both need streamlining, the 2 legged league cup semi finals need to be replaced by a one off game. It should start earlier as well so the semi final is played in December. The mental fixture congestion it can cause in January is reason enough.

For the FA cup you've got to get the the semi finals back to neutral grounds, I'd also get rid of all replays in the entire competition. Surely a one off game with extra time and penalties is more likely to lead to upsets than going to a replay.

[Riquende]

Play offs between 3rd place and the league cup winners and 4th place and the FA cup winners for CL places.

Or a trio of games between 4th place, FA & league cup winners for the last spot.

Because everybody loves more matches to fit into the fixture list.

Oh, and releasing an embarassing cup final single featuring players on vocals should be mandatory.

[OOS]

This is pretty much it. If you team win it, it’s a prestigious trophy, if you don’t, your not arsed.

I’d argue that we’d still had the bettter season out of us an United, even if they finish 2nd and win the fa cup. A champions league final and 3rd place tops that imo.

On a balance sheet, maybe. Id love to win a cup any day of the week.