Topic: Grenfell Tower Fire

[the 92A]

Either way, councils cant place residents in the buildings until all the regs are met, building, fire , or health and safety.

I still wouldnt stay in my flat, my instinct would be to run, I cant put my life in someone elses hands, what if they were incompetent.

If the smokes bad you would struggle, you can't breathe 'plastic' smoke it contains cyanides and allsorts of nastys that are impossible to breathe, you can get lost and disorientated in small spaces, but in this case you'd have probably been right to give it a go. massive tragedy and not the sort of decision any of us would like to make.

[Chivasino]

Between 400-600 residents in the block according to councillor Judith Blakeman, who lives across the road from Grenfell Tower.

Truly horrifying and some of the eye-witness accounts are incredibly sad.

[Red Beret]

Somebody shared this from September 2016, from the Grenfell Action Group.

It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the  KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders. We believe that the KCTMO are an evil, unprincipled, mini-mafia who have no business to be charged with the responsibility of  looking after the every day management of large scale social housing estates and that their sordid collusion with the RBKC Council is a recipe for a future major disaster.

Unfortunately, the Grenfell Action Group have reached the conclusion that only an incident that results in serious loss of life of KCTMO residents will allow the external scrutiny to occur that will shine a light on the practices that characterise the malign governance of this non-functioning organisation. We believe that the KCTMO have ensured their ongoing survival by the use of proxy votes at their Annual General Meeting that see them returned with a mandate of 98% in favour of the continuation of their inept and highly dangerous management of our homes. It is no coincidence that the 98% is the same figure that is returned by the infamous Kim Jong-un of North Korea who claims mass popularity while reputedly enslaving the general population and starving the majority of his people to death.

It is our conviction that a serious fire in a tower block or similar high density residential property is the most likely reason that those who wield power at the KCTMO will be found out and brought to justice! The Grenfell Action Group believe that the KCTMO narrowly averted a major fire disaster at Grenfell Tower in 2013 when residents experienced a period of terrifying power surges that were subsequently found to have been caused by faulty wiring. We believe that our attempts to highlight the seriousness of this event were covered up by the KCTMO with the help of the RBKC Scrutiny Committee who refused to investigate the legitimate concerns of tenants and leaseholders.

We have blogged many times on the subject of fire safety at Grenfell Tower and we believe that these investigations will become part of damning evidence of the poor safety record of the KCTMO should a fire affect any other of their properties and cause the loss of life that we are predicting

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

Lots of links on the original article if you want to check them out.

EDIT: somebody referred to a resident saying the fire started from his fridge exploding?  That's an odd thing for a fridge to do unless it is very very old.  Given this article refers to faulty wiring in this very block back in 2013 we may already have a very good idea of the cause.

[RobbieRedman]

Just listen to what the former residents assoc chairmen said, shocking

"68% of residents either felt threatened, pressured, harassed or bullied by said organisation (council) or the contractors"

"Rydon contracts manager himself threatened me at my own door"

https://twitter.com/EL4JC/status/874931655148023809

[Libertine]

At least 6 dead, more expected.

Truly horrific, can't imagine what a nightmare it was for those inside.

London has taken such a battering in the last few months.

[Big Red Richie]

Somebody shared this from September 2016, from the Grenfell Action Group.

Lots of links on the original article if you want to check them out.

EDIT: somebody referred to a resident saying the fire started from his fridge exploding?  That's an odd thing for a fridge to do unless it is very very old.  Given this article refers to faulty wiring in this very block back in 2013 we may already have a very good idea of the cause.

Too early to speculate yet, until the relevant investigation, but just wanted to comment on this.

A certain well known fridge manufacturer (who I shall not name here) has had multiple reports and issues of newly manufactured fridges catching fire, and all in the last year or two.

There's been numerous reported cases in the press.

So it doesn't necessarily have ot be an older appliance.

Again, at the moment, it's an anecdotal report, so lets wait until the relevant authorities tell us more.

[Red Beret]

Too early to speculate yet, until the relevant investigation, but just wanted to comment on this.

A certain well known fridge manufacturer (who I shall not name here) has had multiple reports and issues of newly manufactured fridges catching fire, and all in the last year or two.

There's been numerous reported cases in the press.

So it doesn't necessarily have ot be an older appliance.

Again, at the moment, it's an anecdotal report, so lets wait until the relevant authorities tell us more.

Thanks for clarifying.

[The North Bank]

Somebody shared this from September 2016, from the Grenfell Action Group.

Lots of links on the original article if you want to check them out.

That is shocking, at first I thought its a report they released today, not 2 years ago, predicting this will happen, Unbelievable, doesnt surprise me though.
Councils and landlords have been putting targets, funding, and profit, ahead of residents for a very long time, I hope anyone responsible goes to prison for a very long time over this.

[Nobby Reserve]

LBC reporting that the Government sat on a cross-party report for 4 years, which recommended changes to towerblocks following the findings of an investigation into the [similarly constructed]Lakanal House fire of 2009, and included a recommendation to fit sprinkler systems.

Ronnie King, the Honorary administrative secretary of the All-Party Parliamentary Group Fire Safety & Rescue Group, said that 'successive Housing Minsters since 2013' have each said 'they are looking at it'. The most recent Housing Minister, with whom Mr King had been struggling to arrange a meeting with before the election was called, was Gavin Barwell, now Theresa May's Chief of Staff.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/news/london/west/kensington-chelsea/government-sat-on-tower-fire-report-four-years/?utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

[west_london_red]

Just reading the BBC News feed, its heart breaking, pictures of a piece of paper this some kids homework landing on the floor, people posting pictures of loved ones asking of anyone has seen them, how can something like this happen in this country in 2017?

[Nobby Reserve]

The cladding can not accelerate the fire, even if its made of plastic, it would be fire proofed to act as if its inert and doesnt burn.

From the pictures, it seems that the cladding did indeed burn. The danger is that it creates a 'chimney effect' behind it, accelerating and intensifying the fire. With a chimney effect over a hundred feet high, the heat generated is amplified, and materials lose their ability to be fire retardant. 

I don't know how this particular cladding was attached, but I've seen other blocks being clad with the panels attached to what seems to be timber batons, with a small gap between the main building structure & the cladding panels.

Here's a report looking at the Dubai NYE 2015 fire:

http://www.probyn-miers.com/perspective/2016/02/fire-risks-from-external-cladding-panels-perspective-from-the-uk/

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

LBC reporting that the Government sat on a cross-party report for 4 years, which recommended changes to towerblocks following the findings of an investigation into the [similarly constructed]Lakanal House fire of 2009, and included a recommendation to fit sprinkler systems.

Ronnie King, the Honorary administrative secretary of the All-Party Parliamentary Group Fire Safety & Rescue Group, said that 'successive Housing Minsters since 2013' have each said 'they are looking at it'. The most recent Housing Minister, with whom Mr King had been struggling to arrange a meeting with before the election was called, was Gavin Barwell, now Theresa May's Chief of Staff.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/news/london/west/kensington-chelsea/government-sat-on-tower-fire-report-four-years/?utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

This will bring them down, and rightfully so. Residents blood is on their hands, all over money and appearance.

c*nts.

[Bunter]

Seriously hope there isn't a danger of the building collapsing, though it seems they are finally getting it under control and are not far off extinguishing it.

Bloody awful scenes.

[cissesbeard]

awful incident
love to all affected

[Red Beret]

If I understand the physics of how fire behaves, if the fire spread up the outside of the building, then the intense heat would have broken the windows and the fire would literally be sucked into the apartments?  Do I have that right?

Without trying to make this political it will reflect very badly on the government, and successive housing ministers, if it turns out they really have sat on this and hoped it would just go away.

Here's hoping some SKY idiot doesn't start plucking up bits of wreckage at random and showing it to the cameras. 

[The North Bank]

From the pictures, it seems that the cladding did indeed burn. The danger is that it creates a 'chimney effect' behind it, accelerating and intensifying the fire. With a chimney effect over a hundred feet high, the heat generated is amplified, and materials lose their ability to be fire retardant. 

I don't know how this particular cladding was attached, but I've seen other blocks being clad with the panels attached to what seems to be timber batons, with a small gap between the main building structure & the cladding panels.

Here's a report looking at the Dubai NYE 2015 fire:

http://www.probyn-miers.com/perspective/2016/02/fire-risks-from-external-cladding-panels-perspective-from-the-uk/

I meant it shouldn't burn, if proper fire regulations were followed, it would be risk assessed and won't be approved for use until the risk is eliminated.

[Red-Soldier]

That's what happens when you have a government who doesn't give a shit and is only interested in cuts and deregulation.

It's clear there have been some serious failings here.

[So… Howard Philips]

Just saw a clip on the news of firemen queuing to go into the building.

Hope the Tories acknowledge that level of courage, bearing in mind what happened in the Twin Towers.

[the 92A]

Just saw a clip on the news of firemen queuing to go into the building.

Hope the Tories acknowledge that level of courage, bearing in mind what happened in the Twin Towers.

They have done with over 20% cut in real wages for firefighters since 2008, and unprecedented cuts to the fire service.

[AlphaDelta]

They have done with over 20% cut in real wages for firefighters since 2008, and unprecedented cuts to the fire service.

Too true, the amount of stations that have closed across London is outrageous.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Fucking tragic. Mind blowing that this could happen in 21st Century London. RIP to the victims. I'm dreading the final death toll, the images from the peak of the inferno don't leave me with much hope that it stays at 6.

[Trada]

This will bring them down, and rightfully so. Residents blood is on their hands, all over money and appearance.

c*nts.

You only have to remember last year Labour wanted to pass a bill where landlords had to make sure their houses were fit for human habitation and the Tories voted it down.

They don't give a fuck. sitting on a bill will be nothing to them.
 

[Red-Soldier]

They have done with over 20% cut in real wages for firefighters since 2008, and unprecedented cuts to the fire service.

Dorset Fire and Rescue have had to merge with Wiltshire due to "cost restructuring."

The travel times for some pumps around here are ridiculous and dangerous.

[The North Bank]

Dorset Fire and Rescue have had to merge with Wiltshire due to "cost restructuring."

The travel times for some pumps around here are ridiculous and dangerous.

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson closed down 4 fire stations in London, but just like with police numbers, apparently it's all unrelated, meanwhile the poor people keep dying. They had no chance in that building. No alarm, no sprinklers, no idea, it turned into one big oven.
Meanwhile the landlord charges the council over 1 k for each flat and the council keeps raking the funding in as they hit their housing "targets" . The government doesn't care, it may be in Kensington borough, but these people are poor. They don't matter.

[Trada]

Theresa May’s new chief of staff was responsible for delayed tower block fire safety review.
Gavin Barwell lost his seat last week and within a week he was back in the government with no public mandate.

[Alan_X]

Either way, councils cant place residents in the buildings until all the regs are met, building, fire , or health and safety.

I still wouldnt stay in my flat, my instinct would be to run, I cant put my life in someone elses hands, what if they were incompetent.

No offence mate but if the advice is to remain your flat then that's generally the thing to do. I'm staggered that people are able to state with such confidence that they know what happened, who's responsible or how the advice was wrong when no investigation had even started.

Something went wrong because the first spread unusually quickly and people died but at this stage no one knows how or why. It may be negligence or it may be an unique set of circumstances.

We all need to wait for the result of the investigation that will follow before pointing fingers.

If you want a sensible voice on here 92A is in the fire service and knows what he's talking about. I'm a director of my own architectural practice but there is no way I would assume to make comments about this until I know what actually happened.

[Alan_X]

Theresa May’s new chief of staff was responsible for delayed tower block fire safety review.
Gavin Barwell lost his seat last week and within a week he was back in the government with no public mandate.

Fucking hell, do we need to play politics with six people dead? If the investigation finds he's responsible then let's come down on him with the full force of the law. Until then he's innocent.

[Alan_X]

From the pictures, it seems that the cladding did indeed burn. The danger is that it creates a 'chimney effect' behind it, accelerating and intensifying the fire. With a chimney effect over a hundred feet high, the heat generated is amplified, and materials lose their ability to be fire retardant. 

I don't know how this particular cladding was attached, but I've seen other blocks being clad with the panels attached to what seems to be timber batons, with a small gap between the main building structure & the cladding panels.

Here's a report looking at the Dubai NYE 2015 fire:

http://www.probyn-miers.com/perspective/2016/02/fire-risks-from-external-cladding-panels-perspective-from-the-uk/

Really interesting. Fire spread like that would certainly make more sense than lack of sprinklers etc.

[Alan_X]

Somebody shared this from September 2016, from the Grenfell Action Group.

Lots of links on the original article if you want to check them out.

EDIT: somebody referred to a resident saying the fire started from his fridge exploding?  That's an odd thing for a fridge to do unless it is very very old.  Given this article refers to faulty wiring in this very block back in 2013 we may already have a very good idea of the cause.

We have no idea of the cause.

[Trada]

Fucking hell, do we need to play politics with six people dead? If the investigation finds he's responsible then let's come down on him with the full force of the law. Until then he's innocent.

Its not playing politics its the truth. He sat on the report for a year when housing minister.

Not counting the years before that by others.

[Trada]

Its a bit worrying the number of people on the news saying they are missing loved ones etc.

[Broad Spectrum]

Yeah think it's harsh to criticise the advice given by the fire brigade, heard someone on 5 live earlier saying this was common protocol. And let's be honest, there's probably fires every week all over the country in blocks of flats. As some on here have already said, it's only the speed at which the fire spread which resulted in such a catastrophe.

RIP to those that lost their lives.

[The North Bank]

No offence mate but if the advice is to remain your flat then that's generally the thing to do. I'm staggered that people are able to state with such confidence that they know what happened, who's responsible or how the advice was wrong when no investigation had even started.

Something went wrong because the first spread unusually quickly and people died but at this stage no one knows how or why. It may be negligence or it may be an unique set of circumstances.

We all need to wait for the result of the investigation that will follow before pointing fingers.

If you want a sensible voice on here 92A is in the fire service and knows what he's talking about. I'm a director of my own architectural practice but there is no way I would assume to make comments about this until I know what actually happened.

Through out my experience the advise is always to go to the fire assembly point which has signage all over the building. Certainly in every building I worked on the assembley point Is the corner stone of the fire plan. It is usually an accessible area outside the building, and regular fire drills (at monthly intervals) are carried out so everyone knows where to congregate in case of fire.
This is the first time I've ever heard of people being told to stay in their flats, it wouldn't be advise I'd give anyone.
I'm not making an official announcement or representation of anybody, just stating my own opinion based on what I'm seeing.
I do agree that I don't know the reason of the fire. I don't think I stated otherwise. Just what I would do in case of a fire.

[Alan_X]

Its not playing politics its the truth. He sat on the report for a year when housing minister.

Not counting the years before that by others.

And you know that the reason for the fire would have been addressed by the report? Sorry but it fucks me off seeing people make assertions with no evidence. It may we'll be that the report would have prevented the fire but the Probyn Myers (leading experts) report on fire in cladding gives a possible reason for the spread of the fire that would have complied with current regulations as they stand.

This needs a proper forensic investigation and the results analysed by experts in the field. The important thing is that the right people are held to account and just as important,  that any changes to regulations and testing procedures are made to ensure this never happens again.

[Trada]

They were just talking to a fire investigating officer on Sky news, and hes was saying the cladding may not have caught fire.

But the fire may have got behind the cladding some how or maybe because the tower was encased in the cladding it almost turned the building into a giant chimney, a couple of theories he had. 

[Alan_X]

Through out my experience the advise is always to go to the fire assembly point which has signage all over the building. Certainly in every building I worked on the assembley point Is the corner stone of the fire plan. It is usually an accessible area outside the building, and regular fire drills (at monthly intervals) are carried out so everyone knows where to congregate in case of fire.
This is the first time I've ever heard of people being told to stay in their flats, it wouldn't be advise I'd give anyone.
I'm not making an official announcement or representation of anybody, just stating my own opinion based on what I'm seeing.

No offence mate. But you seem to know fuck all and your advice could kill people. In normal circumstances a fire in a concrete framed residential building the safest place to be is in your flat as the seat of the flame will be in another flat and unlikely to spread. What you normally see after a fire in a flat is smoke and flame damage from the windows of the flat in question but no damage to adjoining flats. This was clearly unusual and may have something to do with the cladding. I don't know because no one else knows.

[Alan_X]

They were just talking to a fire investigating officer on Sky news, and hes was saying the cladding may not have caught fire.

But the fire may have got behind the cladding some how or maybe because the tower was encased in the cladding it almost turned the building into a giant chimney, a couple of theories he had. 

Exactly. Read the Probyn Myers report. If that's the case it had fuck all to do with some Tory and the regulations and British Standards for cladding will need to be addressed.

[The North Bank]

No offence mate. But you seem to know fuck all and your advice could kill people. In normal circumstances a fire in a concrete framed residential building the safest place to be is in your flat as the seat of the flame will be in another flat and unlikely to spread. What you normally see after a fire in a flat is smoke and flame damage from the windows of the flat in question but no damage to adjoining flats. This was clearly unusual and may have something to do with the cladding. I don't know because no one else knows.

No offence mate, but it seems this advise had led to the death of people.

[the 92A]

Interesting stuff on guardian website.https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/14/grenfell-tower-major-fire-london-apartment-block-white-city-latimer-road#5941358ce4b014a733d62214

There is a reason that the fire brigade have advised people all around the world to stay put in reinforced concrete buildings since the 60's and it's simple . It works.  It also prevents hundreds of people becoming unnecessary victims by being overcome by smoke, endangering themselves, causing panics and injuries, preventing those fighting the fire from putting the fire out and needing crews to search every flat in a building.

Recently, there have been problems, we are now seeing timber construction multi storey buildings over 4 floors. Which rely on fire engineering to protect them, If a fire gets out of control in such a building, there is a possibility that it burns the fabric of the building. Wood no matter how it's treated isn't concrete. That has muddied the waters on 'staying put' as how many will know how their flats are constructed

Last nights fire has seen fire spread that is outside anything we've seen. I can't emphasise how unusual it is. I don't know why it has happened but the way it was burnt looked like the Dubai fire where the cladding spread the fire very quickly and jumped floors. the only time fire jumps floor in concrete buildings is  either wind assisted or an incredibly developed fire and that would take along time to happen. There is therefore something happening that is totally different to normal fire behaviour.

[Alan_X]

No offence mate, but it seems this advise had led to the death of people.

Read the post after yours from someone who has a clue.