Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[ShakaHislop]

Brexit: Guto Bebb joins calls for another referendum

Former Conservative minister Guto Bebb has joined calls for another Brexit referendum.

The Aberconwy MP said the electorate should "decide if they are happy with the deal the prime minster secures".

He resigned as minister for defence procurement to vote against the government on amendments it accepted to its Customs Bill in July.
heresa May has said she will not "give in" to those calling for another referendum on the withdrawal agreement.

The People's Vote, a cross-party group including some MPs, is calling for a public vote on the final Brexit deal.

Conservative MPs Anna Soubry, Sarah Wollaston, Justine Greening and Philip Lee have already said they support a so-called people's vote.

Speaking on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, Mr Bebb said the choice put to people should be "between the status quo and the deal the prime minster offers to the people of this country".

"We're now in a situation that we actually do know what Leave looks like and we clearly know what Remain looks like," he added.

"It's nothing other than democratic to allow people to look at the facts of the matter, to look at what has been secured by the government and to say 'do we accept that or not.'"

He said there was a "growing realisation across the parliamentary party that there is no majority in the house for any form of agreement."

He described the Chequers deal as "common market minus, minus, minus", adding: "Even the people who voted Leave on the basis that they wanted to be in a common market, not in a political union, are now being offered something that is far short of the common market."

He said: "I can't, with any conscience, face (my) constituents and say to them 'despite the fact I think a no deal Brexit will do you immense damage I'm not willing to offer the opportunity to revisit the issue on the basis that we now knowing what leave looks like.'

"The people of this country have a right to express a view on any agreement - and no agreement if it is no agreement - before we actually pull the plug."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-45458871

[SlowRap]

Reasonable point.

Although one thing that appeals to me is that we have a pragmatic and progressive Labour party in government and it is my privilege to be able to help with economic policy. Having been out of power for a long time, and full of great progressive ideas that often don't add up with reality, they are hungry for knowledge and the ministerial discussions are vibrant and healthy, like it was back in 1997 in the UK.

I feel like I'm contributing again, instead of being told to f*ck off out of the party back home by Momentum activists who'd been there a week.

So why not make a new party?

[CornerFlag]

The EU should agree to an extension to A50.  As long as a referendum for the final deal is given.

[Banquo's Ghost]

So why not make a new party?

I fought against Militant in the 80's and helped in a very tiny way to bring New Labour into being. We got the most successful Labour government ever elected three times and made a huge difference to people's lives after 18 years of Thatcherism.

I'm not going to try to do it again now Militant has won. That's a young person's game, and the young people in the party have decided on a different direction - despite, in Brexit terms, sabotaging their own future (in my view).

And creating a new party, whilst tempting on some levels, would only fracture the left even more. With first past the post, it's fatal. It will happen eventually I think, because the coalition of compromise has been utterly destroyed. One can only hope that the same fracture will decimate the Tories first and then four or five parties can emerge from the wreckage.

Or maybe we'll all realise that democracy requires compromise - and that purity of thought and deed is actually deeply detrimental to diversity and pragmatic action.

(As an aside, the Labour party here in New Zealand gained power by going into coalition with New Zealand First, the 'not quite' nationalist equivalent of UKIP. Winston Peters is a far more capable and wiser politician than Frottage, but the two parties seem to be able to get along for the good of the country and to keep National (the Tories) out).

[Banquo's Ghost]

The EU should agree to an extension to A50.  As long as a referendum for the final deal is given.

I'm intrigued. Why should they? What possible benefit is it to the EU to prolong this shitshow?

[Libertine]

End of the first week of my new job in Amsterdam - had some post work drinks yesterday.

There were Dutch, French, Spaniards, Italians and Irish. We were discussing what a great thing freedom of movement is and how it allowed us all to be there.

A Canadian in the group couldn't get over how amazing the EU was, that enabled us to so easily move and work in any country in Europe, and how lucky we all were to be afforded these opportunities.

Imagine giving all that up?

[Iska]

Imagine giving all that up?

It just never came up when it mattered.  Shameful.

Or maybe we'll all realise that democracy requires compromise - and that purity of thought and deed is actually deeply detrimental to diversity and pragmatic action.

Great posts.

[oldfordie]

The EU will only extend ART 50 if theres a big shift in British Politics and even then it still has to be agreed in a vote by all the 27 EU Countries, Barnier hasn't got the authority to ok the extension, the EU is a Democracy,  can you blame them for not extending art 50 after the charade they've been forced to endure the last 2yrs, the negotiations are a farce,they have been from day1,  Mays offered a deal she knows they won't accept, the EU have told us forget it as a trade deal. Mays arguing they have to accept her Chequers deal as a basis for a deal, if it's a no deal then it will be the EUs fault for not being ambitious enough whatever that's supposed to mean I don't know, why should they prolong this phoney war, they understand the games being played by our politicians,they want no part in it, just leave on March 29 and let the British political games play out. come back when you want genuine negotiations on getting a trade deal with the whole of Europe.
Labour are missing some golden opportunities, Labour could be the big shift in British politics, they could make the argument that the Tories haven't got the credibility to ask for a extension of ART 50 even if we desperately need it.
This is not just a referendum issue now, this is also about being able to convince the EU that it's in their interest to extend art 50 to give us time to hold another referendum.
Make this a election issue before the negotiations break down in November. the Tories wont get a extension to ART 50 but we believe we can as we will hold another referendum as soon as possible. if it's a vote to remain we remain, a vote to leave means the British people have spoken and we leave without a deal.

[fudge]

I'm intrigued. Why should they? What possible benefit is it to the EU to prolong this shitshow?

To put others off ? Seeing how bad it is ?

[The Gulleysucker]

...and some fell on stony ground...

Well said about the practicality of compromise to gain power, but it seems many of the present new found enthusiasts here in the UK for so called Socialist purity don't yet have sufficient experience of impotent opposition to continuing Tory rule in order to really understand this, though on current form it seems they likely gain plenty of practical experience to draw on within another few years.

There are undoubtedly many who are condemned to relearn through their own naivety, inexperience of previous times, and plain blind faith in feet of clay politicians promises of a utopian Elysium simply in order to discover themselves what some of us already know from bitter past experience.

Now some of us have tried to signpost this, so at least when it all turns to tears, we can point out that they can't say they were never warned, though that will likely be of any comfort to those of us who remain who likely will have to then pick up the pieces and somehow re-establish stability and reason and a functional society for all.

My concern, and I think it's something I've expressed before on here,  is the likelyhood that when it does all go pear shaped, is that's when the very right wing can undoubtedly make hay within many of these deluded and disillusioned souls and we start to see that the boundary of thought and policy as implemented by either far left and far right starts to become fuzzy and we risk entering an abyss of cheaply attributed and lazy blame, intolerance, vengance and darkness, as minority tracts of society that hold political sway (though I expect with loud claims of a democratic mandate..) tries to make sense and apply direction to the outcome of their stupid decisions.

I'm starting to think we're actually irretrievably fucked here in the UK, now, and in the future and come whatever, and unfortunately probably well and truly, and I feel so sorry for the very young who will understandably be rather unforgiving of us all.

[Zeb]

Editor of New European says Johnson deeply regrets his decision to back leave.

Hmm.

In his newspaper article, Mr Johnson accused the EU of "bullying" the UK - but questioned why the response had been "so utterly feeble".

He said that rather than getting a "generous free trade deal", Britain is saying, "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir", to Brussels.

"At every stage of the talks so far, Brussels gets what Brussels wants," wrote Mr Johnson.

"It is a humiliation. We look like a seven-stone weakling being comically bent out of shape by a 500lb gorilla."

He said the reason for this was "simple", namely Northern Ireland and the "insanity of the so-called backstop".

The backstop solution is a safety net the UK and EU signed up to in December 2017, which seeks to maintain cross-border co-operation, support the all-island economy and protect the Good Friday peace agreement.

Mr Johnson said agreeing to this had "opened ourselves to perpetual political blackmail".

He added: "We have wrapped a suicide vest around the British constitution - and handed the detonator to Michel Barnier [the EU's chief negotiator]."

Mr Johnson wants the UK to pursue a technological solution for the border, but says the government has always had a "secret agenda" to keep the UK in the single market and customs union.

He concluded: "We have put our own heads deliberately on the block."

The BBC's political correspondent Alex Forsyth said the "scathing remarks" showed Mr Johnson's "willingness to challenge the prime minister remains undimmed" after the recent revelations about his private life.

BBC

He leans heavily on 'technology' for his proposed 'solution', citing:

"Jon Thompson, the head of Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs, told the House of Commons: ‘We do not believe – and this has been our consistent advice to Ministers – we do not believe we require any infrastructure at the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland under any circumstances.’"

The part he skips, is that Jon Thompson's estimate for doing what Boris suggests was that it would take at least 3 years to set up and cost around £20bn a year for the additional red tape. Oh, and probably still wouldn't work very well - if at all. (FT's Chris Giles' twitter coverage at the time.)

Still, who needs to find a real world solution for the Irish border problem when Britain can into Star Wars?



(Today's Sunday Times)

[kavah]

Members of Britain’s three biggest trade unions now support a new referendum on Brexit by a margin of more than two to one ...

Let’s have the referendum and cancel brexit. Sounds good to me

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/08/unions-poll-massive-backing-second-eu-brexit-referendum

[PaulF]

@libertine, I think a sizeable proportion of the English view Europe as a holiday destination and a bunch of stereotypes. Many would never ever want to live or work there. So to them, loss of freedom of movement is no loss.

[rob1966]

Hmm.

BBC

He leans heavily on 'technology' for his proposed 'solution', citing:

"Jon Thompson, the head of Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs, told the House of Commons: ‘We do not believe – and this has been our consistent advice to Ministers – we do not believe we require any infrastructure at the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland under any circumstances.’"

The part he skips, is that Jon Thompson's estimate for doing what Boris suggests was that it would take at least 3 years to set up and cost around £20bn a year for the additional red tape. Oh, and probably still wouldn't work very well - if at all. (FT's Chris Giles' twitter coverage at the time.)

Still, who needs to find a real world solution for the Irish border problem when Britain can into Star Wars?



(Today's Sunday Times)

Describing the Chequers plan as a Suicide vest? - he is an evil racist bastard.

@libertine, I think a sizeable proportion of the English view Europe as a holiday destination and a bunch of stereotypes. Many would never ever want to live or work there. So to them, loss of freedom of movement is no loss.

Until they need a visa to go to Benidorm, then the thick c*nts will start moaning.

[redbyrdz]

@libertine, I think a sizeable proportion of the English view Europe as a holiday destination and a bunch of stereotypes. Many would never ever want to live or work there. So to them, loss of freedom of movement is no loss.

Think most Brits never had the full European experience, never really felt part of it. No Schengen and no Euro contributes to that. Add the constant moaning and lies about Europe from the tabloids, and you get Brexit.




A mate from work just spend a week "in Europe" (see how we speak as if the UK isn't part of it?). He said every meal/drinks occassion, it took seconds until Brexit was mentioned. Nobody understands it at all.

[PaulF]

Was in Europe on holiday or to work?

[oldfordie]

Hmm.

BBC

He leans heavily on 'technology' for his proposed 'solution', citing:

"Jon Thompson, the head of Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs, told the House of Commons: ‘We do not believe – and this has been our consistent advice to Ministers – we do not believe we require any infrastructure at the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland under any circumstances.’"

The part he skips, is that Jon Thompson's estimate for doing what Boris suggests was that it would take at least 3 years to set up and cost around £20bn a year for the additional red tape. Oh, and probably still wouldn't work very well - if at all. (FT's Chris Giles' twitter coverage at the time.)

Still, who needs to find a real world solution for the Irish border problem when Britain can into Star Wars?



(Today's Sunday Times)

It's hard to understand what Johnson is up too, salvaging his career as a politician, becoming PM or fighting for a better deal from the EU.
He says the EU are getting their own way on everything because of the NI border backstop problem. we could give in to many of the EUs red lines to get a deal and it still wouldn't solve the NI border problem so he's talking shite as usual.
Is he gambling again.he doesn't think he has a prayer of becoming leader and this is more about salvaging his career come the next GE. how we could of got a great trade deal if he would have been in charge.
IMO, I dont believe he thinks the EU will drop their red lines if we stand firm. the idiots gambling again to salvage his career. one things for sure, games are being played and the countries best interest are not a concern. this is about whats best for Johnson.

[rob1966]

Think most Brits never had the full European experience, never really felt part of it. No Schengen and no Euro contributes to that. Add the constant moaning and lies about Europe from the tabloids, and you get Brexit.

A mate from work just spend a week "in Europe" (see how we speak as if the UK isn't part of it?). He said every meal/drinks occassion, it took seconds until Brexit was mentioned. Nobody understands it at all.

I'm lucky in that I got to live and work in Berlin for a month in 2002, mixed with people, went out with locals, chatted to staff in the hotel. I've also had quite a few holidays, visited 9 different mainland countries, plus got to make friends with people from Spain, Italy and Denmark as well as knowing people who live, work and run businesses in mainland Europe. I cannot believe we want to distance ourselves away from the rest of Europe, when we should be making closer ties.

This whole thing feels like being on a bus and 52 people voted for the driver to drive off a cliff, 48 said no and even though the driver knows it will destroy us all, he does it anyway.

[OneTouchFooty]

Re: Freedom of Movement. I think most see it as the preserve of the intellectual class, the well-educated and those with degrees that can get high paying jobs abroad. Most of the unskilled or lower skilled probably don’t feel the benefits of the opportunities, bar in maybe France and Germany, where was/is realistically a better option than the UK? The language barrier aswell contributes too, plus let’s be realistic,  no Brit will be going to Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary to seek out a better life, there is a select few countries to choose from. But yeah being Bulgarian it’s probably fantastic that you can go almost anywhere in the EU and significantly improve your situation.

[Zeb]

It's hard to understand what Johnson is up too, salvaging his career as a politician, becoming PM or fighting for a better deal from the EU.
He says the EU are getting their own way on everything because of the NI border backstop problem. we could give in to many of the EUs red lines to get a deal and it still wouldn't solve the NI border problem so he's talking shite as usual.
Is he gambling again.he doesn't think he has a prayer of becoming leader and this is more about salvaging his career come the next GE. how we could of got a great trade deal if he would have been in charge.
IMO, I dont believe he thinks the EU will drop their red lines if we stand firm. the idiots gambling again to salvage his career. one things for sure, games are being played and the countries best interest are not a concern. this is about whats best for Johnson.

Suspect that he's realised that there's no hope of him getting support away from the Brexit headbangers so he'll continue on rabble rousing from the Kipper playbook. The headbangers seem to have accepted that they've no hope of toppling May at the moment which gives them time to lay the foundations for a 'great betrayal' narrative they can use whatever the outcome. Tories are beginning to split into those who want 'Canada' and those who aren't opposed to 'Norway' (even if as a stopgap on the way to 'Canada'). And, of course, May is in the impossible middle between those two alternatives. As you say, this isn't about the best interests of the country. Although I could be persuaded if they're serious about Britain into Space. Loved Space 1999 as a kid.



Heyho. Brexit.

[rob1966]

Re: Freedom of Movement. I think most see it as the preserve of the intellectual class, the well-educated and those with degrees that can get high paying jobs abroad. Most of the unskilled or lower skilled probably don’t feel the benefits of the opportunities, bar in maybe France and Germany, where was/is realistically a better option than the UK? The language barrier aswell contributes too, plus let’s be realistic,  no Brit will be going to Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary to seek out a better life, there is a select few countries to choose from. But yeah being Bulgarian it’s probably fantastic that you can go almost anywhere in the EU and significantly improve your situation.

The biggest issue I can see (this is from my own experience) was that employers chose to exploit the migrant workers and cut wages as a result, which then caused anger with the existing workforce. I have no problems with people from the likes of Poland wanting to make a better life for themselves and as they are all taught English in school, then coming here was the most logical choice.
Couple of years ago I was chatting to a Bulgarian driver who has been in Liverpool for over 20 years. I asked would he ever like to move back to Bulgaria and he said no. Liverpool was now his home, his kids were all Scouse and even if he did want to go back, he couldn't live on the wages anyway.

[oldfordie]

Suspect that he's realised that there's no hope of him getting support away from the Brexit headbangers so he'll continue on rabble rousing from the Kipper playbook. The headbangers seem to have accepted that they've no hope of toppling May at the moment which gives them time to lay the foundations for a 'great betrayal' narrative they can use whatever the outcome. Tories are beginning to split into those who want 'Canada' and those who aren't opposed to 'Norway' (even if as a stopgap on the way to 'Canada'). And, of course, May is in the impossible middle between those two alternatives. As you say, this isn't about the best interests of the country. Although I could be persuaded if they're serious about Britain into Space. Loved Space 1999 as a kid.



Heyho. Brexit.

Yeah,It is hard to work out what he's thinking. maybe this is just about keeping himself and the Tories in power, it probably is.
You wonder what sort of reaction he's getting from his constituents, I know he's the number 1 target at the next GE, sitting on a small majority,many people arguing vote for anyone bar Johnson and here's why campaign, maybe he thinks being PM gives him a better chance of salvaging his career, this is not about getting a great trade deal though, this is about Johnson.
I will never understand why any leader Tory or Labour thinks they will last 5 min after a no deal Brexit.

[ShakaHislop]

PSNI chief warning over post Brexit threat

The PSNI Chief Constable has accused some Westminster politicians of failing to understand the dangers of terrorism in Northern Ireland post Brexit.

In an interview in the Sunday Times, George Hamilton warns that the government is failing to prepare for the impact of the UK leaving the EU on the peace and security in NI.

He said that he is not getting the information and clarity needed.

Mr Hamilton said that some Westminster politicians view NI as "peripheral".

"There's a feeling that as regards the Troubles and the conflict, Northern Ireland is sorted and we don't need to worry about it, when actually we're working flat out 24/7 to keep a lid on it," he said.

Mr Hamilton issued a similar warning when he appeared before the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in June.

In the Sunday Times interview, he said that any physical infrastructure or border officials following the UK's withdrawal from the European Union would become targets for dissident republicans and require police protection.

"The purpose for which those checking points and [Irish] border controls would be put in place would become less and less relevant because they would move away from issues of trade or movement of people to old-fashioned security on a national frontier," he said.

"That was done during the period of the Troubles rather unsuccessfully, and was sadly the subject of attacks and many lives lost."

Asked if the government understood Brexit's potential consequences for Northern Ireland, Mr Hamilton said: "I'm not sure all of them do.

"I have a concern some may see issues to do with the Irish border as literally peripheral, not just geographically but in terms of impact."

The Sunday Times also reports that police chiefs elsewhere in the UK are drawing up contingency plans to deal with "wide spread civil disorder" at the UK's borders and ports.

The newspaper cites a leaked document, which has been prepared by the National Police Co-ordination Centre, which warns that the "necessity to call on military assistance is a real possibility" after Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-45461120

[oldfordie]

Brexit was not sold to voters like this. the only plan they have is to leave without a deal.

Eurosceptics shelve their rival Brexit blueprint

Conservative Eurosceptics have abandoned their plan to publish an alternative Chequers blueprint.

Tory members of the European Research Group had been due to put their names to a single document setting out their own proposals for a limited Brexit deal with the European Union
The plan was shelved amid divisions over strategy and fears among some MPs that it would provide ammunition for Downing Street and pro-European groups to attack their proposals.
The group is instead planning a programme of events, starting with a speech on Wednesday by David Davis, the former Brexit secretary.

Mr Davis is expected to criticise the government’s approach to the Northern Irish backstop and will suggest that EU officials could be allowed in UK ports to inspect goods travelling to the province as part of an alternative maximum facilitation customs agreement.
The idea has been dismissed by Downing Street, which argues that it would not deal with the real concerns the EU has about the Irish border.

Senior sources in the ERG admitted that its strategy had “evolved” since MPs returned to Westminster on Tuesday. It is understood that a 140-page document setting out an alternative to Chequers was shelved on Thursday.

It was due to advocate abandoning Chequers in favour of trying to negotiate a free-trade agreement with the EU along the lines agreed with Canada. The paper is understood to have made clear that if the EU was not prepared to soften its red lines on Ireland, or proposed less favourable terms than Canada, then the UK would leave without a deal. A concern among some MPs was understood to have been the position of Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. He had made clear that he did not intend publicly to endorse the plan.
reland’s EU commissioner yesterday warned that the “silly behaviour” of some Conservative MPs meant there could be no agreement on the nature of post-Brexit trading arrangements before the UK’s exit from the EU.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/eurosceptics-shelve-their-rival-brexit-blueprint-5rxnblpql

[killer-heels]

So Boris didnt even endorse it? If the media and politicians have anything about them then they should be nailing him with that question.

[So… Howard Philips]

So Boris didnt even endorse it? If the media and politicians have anything about them then they should be nailing him with that question.

They are more interested in his extramarital shenanigans.

[Zeb]

He'll just say that it's only a draft yet anyway and nothing to do with him. Where there may be mileage is in the Max Fac idea and trying to nail him down on details there - costs etc. Not sure whether it'll change any minds but it always cheers me up watching him trying to blag his way out while sounding increasingly petulant about having to know things.

And the alternative Brexit plan is far from ready, several sources told BuzzFeed News.

A committee of MPs, including Bernard Jenkin, Owen Paterson, and John Redwood, have been working on a policy platform based on a Canada-style free-trade arrangement, in the hope of convincing more moderate Tory colleagues that a hard Brexit is plausible. It was intended to be published next week, but has been the subject of an internal row.

Senior Brexiteers who have seen the paper said there are significant flaws with it. That is alarming, they said, because the document was meant to be at the stage when it would be signed-off for publication.

In Number 10, aides to the prime minister are said to be greatly amused that their most dangerous enemies can’t seem to get it together.

Even senior Leave-supporting figures acknowledge there are problems. “Brexiteer MPs are completely disorganised and not putting the work in,” one told BuzzFeed News, “but why break the habit of a lifetime? They are rats in a sack who all think they should be in charge.”

Buzzfeed (NB: they've embedded a front page from the rag in the middle of the article)

[ShakaHislop]

You only allow it to be linked to that if you swallow the MSM narrative.

Westminster voting intention:

LAB: 41% (+1)
CON: 37% (-1)
UKIP: 7% (+4)
LDEM: 6% (-4)
GRN: 2% (-)

via @Survation, 31 Aug - 01 Sep
Chgs. w/ 07 Jul

CON 38%
LAB 37%
LD 10%
UKIP 4%
GRE 1%
via @Survation, 07 Sep

https://www.survation.com/boris-johnson-theresa-may-leadership-survation-for-daily-mail-september-8th/

[drmick]

I'm lucky in that I got to live and work in Berlin for a month in 2002, mixed with people, went out with locals, chatted to staff in the hotel. I've also had quite a few holidays, visited 9 different mainland countries, plus got to make friends with people from Spain, Italy and Denmark as well as knowing people who live, work and run businesses in mainland Europe. I cannot believe we want to distance ourselves away from the rest of Europe, when we should be making closer ties.

This whole thing feels like being on a bus and 52 people voted for the driver to drive off a cliff, 48 said no and even though the driver knows it will destroy us all, he does it anyway.

To be fair the analogy would be:
52 on the bus.
15 didn't vote because they thought nobody would be insane to vote for it
Of the remaining 37, 19 voted to drive off the cliff, 18 said no. The 19 who voted for guaranteed us a very soft landing, and treasures awaited us when we got off.

[TepidT2O]

Johnson got booed when they showed him on the big screen at the oval today...

Get used to that ...

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Johnson got booed when they showed him on the big screen at the oval today...

Get used to that ...

getting booed at the cricket, that’s pretty low for him

[west_london_red]

So Boris didnt even endorse it? If the media and politicians have anything about them then they should be nailing him with that question.

Johnson’s not so committed to Brexit or stupid to put his name on something he could get held to account to if he became PM. As Downing Street pointed out last week, he offers criticism but no solutions.

[oldfordie]

Johnson’s not so committed to Brexit or stupid to put his name on something he could get held to account to if he became PM. As Downing Street pointed out last week, he offers criticism but no solutions.

Yep. leave is all about what they don't like about the EU, they don't do realty or plans. you have to answer direct questions with detailed plans. that goes for any leave supporter, campaigner or MP from either party not just ERG.
Put any of them under the spotlight and none can answer direct questions.
Leaving the EU was all about what they don't like about the EU based on little snippets.
A Canada type deal will bring chaos, am looking forward to Davis giving us the answers.
I imagine the solution will be to add a +++ after Canada and this will obviously give us a brilliant deal. we will be back to red lines again and the fantasy Brexit they need us more than we need them crap.
The TUC look like forcing Labour policy to change, I can see them asking for a 1 day national strike against Brexit as soon as talks collopase and ive no problem with more being planned on a weekly basis either.  they are finally waking up to the realty of Brexit actually happening, let the s,,, storm start before we leave.

[west_london_red]

Yep. leave is all about what they don't like about the EU, they don't do realty or plans. you have to answer direct questions with detailed plans. that goes for any leave supporter, campaigner or MP from either party not just ERG.
Put any of them under the spotlight and none can answer direct questions.
Leaving the EU was all about what they don't like about the EU based on little snippets.
A Canada type deal will bring chaos, am looking forward to Davis giving us the answers.
I imagine the solution will be to add a +++ after Canada and this will obviously give us a brilliant deal. we will be back to red lines again and the fantasy Brexit they need us more than we need them crap.
The TUC look like forcing Labour policy to change, I can see them asking for a 1 day national strike against Brexit as soon as talks collopase and ive no problem with more being planned on a weekly basis either.  they are finally waking up to the realty of Brexit actually happening, let the s,,, storm start before we leave.

As I said previously, after the way things have gone Canada is all I am hoping for at the moment.

I cant see a national strike or anything like that, there’s still a lot of people who voted Leave who would break the strikes and I don’t even want to think what the reaction against a national strike would be.

[oldfordie]

As I said previously, after the way things have gone Canada is all I am hoping for at the moment.

I cant see a national strike or anything like that, there’s still a lot of people who voted Leave who would break the strikes and I don’t even want to think what the reaction against a national strike would be.

It's a 1 day protest strike, not a general strike. they called for one in support of the nurses in the 80s,
The industries most likely to strike will be the industries under threat from Brexit, road haulage, car manufacturers especially, I think the management of these companies will be very sympathetic to any 1 day protest strikers, I don't think they will make a negative statement about the strikes or put any pressure on the men not to strike.
 A Canadian deal is nowhere good enough, we should dismiss it out of hand. theres a danger of it lulling people into a false sense of security.

[ShakaHislop]

In an interview for The Truth Trade podcast, Mr Fox said: “We have got to be rational and say that everything will not be wonderful because we are leaving the European Union.

“We have to say there are great opportunities that come from Brexit but that is not a guarantee that everything is going to be rosy on the other side.

He added: “Let’s not have an irrational positivity, but look at the opportunities and look in a balanced way at the pluses we can control. We will be subjected to the same global pressures as before.”

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/98082/former-brexit-minister-says-tories-face-%E2%80%98catastrophic

[PaulF]

is BJ right in saying the border issue hugely ties our hands?

[oldfordie]

is BJ right in saying the border issue hugely ties our hands?

In other words,there are no solutions. there are no solutions if we leave without a deal as well as there is no such thing as full Sovereignty, the WTO will insist on a border as well. so what happens then? do we leave the WTO as well, leave are basically saying we have no solutions and it's everybody else's fault for insisting we find one.

[west_london_red]

It's a 1 day protest strike, not a general strike. they called for one in support of the nurses in the 80s,
The industries most likely to strike will be the industries under threat from Brexit, road haulage, car manufacturers especially, I think the management of these companies will be very sympathetic to any 1 day protest strikers, I don't think they will make a negative statement about the strikes or put any pressure on the men not to strike.
 A Canadian deal is nowhere good enough, we should dismiss it out of hand. theres a danger of it lulling people into a false sense of security.

You can’t go on strike unless your a union member as far as I am aware, and while trade unions have been attacked and hacked at for the last 35 years no one outside the unions batted an eye (and that’s not just the Tories, there’s a fair few ‘liberals’ hostile to unions on here). It’s probably a bit late to now expect them to come riding to the rescue.

[Zeb]

is BJ right in saying the border issue hugely ties our hands?

Yes, from some Brexiter's viewpoint. It's not possible to reach a solution which works unless you are willing to accept that being in the single market and the customs union can still be a 'Brexit'.