Topic: Catalan Independence

[Yorkykopite]

What has held Puidgemont back? Presumably it was the massive counter-demonstrations in Barcelona and the growing sense that a substantial minority, and possibly a fair majority, of his fellow Catalonians do not want separation from Spain. 

[MOZ]

What has held Puidgemont back? Presumably it was the massive counter-demonstrations in Barcelona and the growing sense that a substantial minority, and possibly a fair majority, of his fellow Catalonians do not want separation from Spain. 

All of that, plus the arrest and imprisonment of independence campaigners Jordi Sanchez (Catalan National Assembly) and Jordi Cuixart (Omnium Cultural) for sedition has probably made him realise that could face prison himself if he continues to flout the law. And the mass exodus of businesses from the region has also caused much alarm amongst the less extreme elements of the coalition and amongst the public at large. 

[kevlumley]

Had no option in the end. Puidgemont refused to confirm (or deny) if there was an official declaration of independence and once again ignored the political process of the state and his own Catalan government. He has also upset the hardline independentistas by failing to stick to his word.

The government also has to do something to stop the flood of businesses re-registering their HQs outside of the region (around 700 at last count including 45 major contributors to the economy). Puidgemont had previously told his supporters that independence would have no negative economic effects and would actually attract more business.

Didn't really understand the last bit about the government has to do something to stop businesses re-registering their HQ's outside of the region. Are we talking about them leaving Spain, that i can understand why the government would be concerned. Or are we talking about leaving Catalunya? That i would think is a good thing for Spain and a terrible thing for Catalunya. Sorry, been following most of what you guys have written and a lot of you are really up on your history. Good reading. I just didn't understand the context here.

[MOZ]

Didn't really understand the last bit about the government has to do something to stop businesses re-registering their HQ's outside of the region. Are we talking about them leaving Spain, that i can understand why the government would be concerned. Or are we talking about leaving Catalunya? That i would think is a good thing for Spain and a terrible thing for Catalunya. Sorry, been following most of what you guys have written and a lot of you are really up on your history. Good reading. I just didn't understand the context here.

Over 300 businesses (around 40 or 50 major ones) have re-registered outside of Catalunya as a precaution. It is not a good thing for Spain in the larger context as it will destabilise the region further and unbalance the economy. What they are seeking now is a return to stability and normality for the people in the region (and Spain in general) as soon as possible.

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

Had no option in the end. Puidgemont refused to confirm (or deny) if there was an official declaration of independence and once again ignored the political process of the state and his own Catalan government. He has also upset the hardline independentistas by failing to stick to his word.

The government also has to do something to stop the flood of businesses re-registering their HQs outside of the region (around 700 at last count including 45 major contributors to the economy). Puidgemont had previously told his supporters that independence would have no negative economic effects and would actually attract more business.

Someone said at a UK Parliament shindig that due to the Spanish Government and the violence  they are withdrawing any investment planned into Spain.

How many of those companies have done more than just register a Head Office address out of Catalunya? Assume no jobs have moved as of yet, and considering Catalunya is around 20% of the Spanish GDP, Spain has a lot to lose as well (and yes i know you know...).

On a side note, i said a short while ago that Banco Sabadell can fuck off... i've just pre-booked a visit to Casa Vicens in BCN (Gaudi built) that is reopening after a €5m refurb and for first time ever will be open to the public. Payment goes through Banco Sabadell, fucks sake

[MOZ]

Someone said at a UK Parliament shindig that due to the Spanish Government and the violence  they are withdrawing any investment planned into Spain.

How many of those companies have done more than just register a Head Office address out of Catalunya? Assume no jobs have moved as of yet, and considering Catalunya is around 20% of the Spanish GDP, Spain has a lot to lose as well (and yes i know you know...).

On a side note, i said a short while ago that Banco Sabadell can fuck off... i've just pre-booked a visit to Casa Vicens in BCN (Gaudi built) that is reopening after a €5m refurb and for first time ever will be open to the public. Payment goes through Banco Sabadell, fucks sake

Like the name change!

No job moves have been reported yet, although there was talk of some moving in the case of independence being declared. A few companies hinted at taking staff to Valencia so they would be more familiar with the language/culture etc. than say in Madrid.

Seems to be a mix of precautionary measures to cover themselves and also sending out a message as to what might follow.

Would like to do Casa Vicens when we go up later this year - looks amazing.

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

Yep, when Casa Vicens came up for sale, i was hoping for a lottery win to have it done up and opened. So glad someone put the money up.

[MOZ]

Yep, when Casa Vicens came up for sale, i was hoping for a lottery win to have it done up and opened. So glad someone put the money up.

When you going?

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

When you going?

8-11 December. Booked in to Casa Vicens on 9th. Was hoping to guided tour but not on weekends and 10am on Monday too cloe to do with mid afternoon flight back to Speke.

[kevlumley]

Thanks Moz

[Red Beret]

I'm reading that the Spanish government is going to sack the Catalan government and impose direct rule, at least until a new (more deferential?) administration is elected.

I can't see this ending well. 

[stevensr123]

Wthats the EU and it's leaders doing again? Fucking disgusting situation all around, the silence from certain people, organisations and countries is deafening.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

This is what Drumpf has normalised & it will only get worse.

Don't believe your lying eyes.

Spain FM: 'Many police violence pictures fake'

[MOZ]

This is what Drumpf has normalised & it will only get worse.

Don't believe your lying eyes.

Spain FM: 'Many police violence pictures fake'

He is an idiot.

He was referring to a few pictures circulating in the media (mainly twitter) that were actually from earlier incidents such as the miner's strike in 2012. One even had a Catalan flag photoshopped in to make it appear like it happened on October 1st. However, there were enough genuine images and footage to make them irrelevent in the overall context so he really should have either kept his mouth shut or acknowledged what happened that day.

On other note, Puidgemeont and his cronies suggested that they would declare independence on Thursday as a response to article 155. Although he has since been invited to the senate on Friday which could possibly pave the way for the delay of article 155, particularly if he offers to call new elections himself - although that is unlikely. It also appears that Puidgemeont's Romanian wife and children have travelled back to Romania, with some suggesting that he is preparing to flee the country to avoid arrest should the shit hit the fan (or perhaps attempt to establish a Tarradellas-style government-in-exile).

A couple of days ago he was on twitter promoting an article backing the complete break-up of Spain into 17 separate states and tweeting stuff about Nazis, Hitler and mentioning Franco at every opportunity. I know there are alot of people who seem to be happy for Catalonia to drive off this cliff edge, while risking the break-up of Spain and destabilising the EU, but I am not sure everyone understands what a dangerous character Puidgmeont is. How he has re-written history, lied about the economic consequences of separating, engaged in subversive propoganda and whipped up a previously content majority of Catalonians into a frenzy to suit his cause. After resisting a self-determination claim from the Basque Country for 40-odd years, despite a campaign of violence, I cannot not Spain bending an inch for this guy, but we will see. The next few days will be crucial.

[kennedy81]

Wthats the EU and it's leaders doing again? Fucking disgusting situation all around, the silence from certain people, organisations and countries is deafening.

What are the EU supposed to do? This is between the Spanish and the Catalans, who should be able to come to some agreement like civilized people do.

[kennedy81]

Don't know if any Second Captain's subscribers heard novelist Colm Tóibín on there the other day talking about Catalonia. Well worth a listen. He lived for 17 years and speaks the language and is well up on the history and culture. It was very interesting, I hadn't been aware of how different they are to the Spanish in so many ways.

[MOZ]

Significant development as Puigdemont has agreed with key coalition members of Junts pel Sí, PDECat and ERC to call regional elections. This now has to be ratified by the executives of all parties. This has pissed of the CUP anti-capitalists who are a minority part of the coalition but have been excluded from the meetings. If this goes ahead, article 155 could be halted tomorrow.

[MOZ]

Apparently (according to Catalan press), Puigdemont's u-turn has come about thanks to a mediation process led by Basque President Ińigo Urkullu and a group of Catalan businessmen.

[MOZ]

Puigdemont announcement coming soon. By the reaction of some hardcore separatists, he may have to go into hiding for a bit!

[MOZ]

Puigdemont statement now cancelled!

Spanish stock market yo-yoing as the circus continues

[Xabi Gerrard]

Don't know if any Second Captain's subscribers heard novelist Colm Tóibín on there the other day talking about Catalonia. Well worth a listen. He lived for 17 years and speaks the language and is well up on the history and culture. It was very interesting, I hadn't been aware of how different they are to the Spanish in so many ways.

Heard a soundbite from it on their free pod, he basically described them as being like "a mix of Dutch, Swedes and Swiss personalities - good with money, don't like sleeping during the day and drinking all night, hate bullfighting and their farmers all own their own land, so they never had a peasant culture". Basically the opposite of the Spanish. Was surprised by that too! Would have quite liked to have listened to the whole thing, but not enough to pay a fiver for!

[MOZ]

Another u-turn - no elections. Ball now in Senate's court again.

[MOZ]

As if things weren't weird enough in Catalonia. A group of Mossos agents have been arrested today transporting a van full of documents thought to be related to the referendum to an incinerator. Documents have now been seized.

[Poet]

Heard a soundbite from it on their free pod, he basically described them as being like "a mix of Dutch, Swedes and Swiss personalities - good with money, don't like sleeping during the day and drinking all night, hate bullfighting and their farmers all own their own land, so they never had a peasant culture". Basically the opposite of the Spanish. Was surprised by that too! Would have quite liked to have listened to the whole thing, but not enough to pay a fiver for!

Surely that is an argument for independence in itself?

[Xabi Gerrard]

Surely that is an argument for independence in itself?

I dunno, maybe. In general I want less borders in the world, not more, so my completely uneducated opinion on the matter is that I don't want them to break away. I don't personally know enough specifics about Catalania/Spain to say categorically one way or the other though.

[Trada]

Catalan chamber to hold a vote on calling independence Opposition MPs have left the chamber.

[Trada]

Voting now.

[goalspaytherent]

This is riveting stuff

[MOZ]

Surely that is an argument for independence in itself?

No, the opinion and experiences of one man living in the region is not enough reason to declare independence. His words imply that Spaniards are bad with money, lazy and drink all night, arguments that are bordering on sterotypical bigotry that would be strongly disputed by Spaniards. He also says that Catalans hate bullfighting, conveniently forgetting that Catalonia has been bullfighting for 700 years and has some of the oldest and biggest bullrings in Spain. It has also produced some of the great toreros of all time, and they still hold bull runs and 'correbous' in many rural areas and on the Ebro Delta. 

The anti-bullfighting stance in Catalonia is a relatively new phenomenon (since the 1980s) and was partly prompted by the new-found need to reject all things seen as typically Spanish (include the siesta in this) but also by the large (and very welcome) animal welfare sentiment that exists amongst many young progressives in Spain in general. Despite that, a large number of Catalans signed the petition that resulted in bull-fighting being reinstated last year.

And speaking of rewriting history, an independentista in Catalan parliament just now has talked of undoing the 1978 regime - yes thats right, the year they moved from fascism and formed a democratic constitution is being described as a regime. That is the side of the indy movement that gets overlooked in all of this, their total rewriting of history - and it goes right down to school level.

[MOZ]

Votes being counted now

[Trada]

70 votes for 10 votes against

[MOZ]

Article 155 will now be invoked

[Gerry Attrick]

This is going to become extremely messy isn't it?

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

Article 155 will now be invoked

Good.

[killer-heels]

This is going to become extremely messy isn't it?

Yep. I would imagine the voting day scenes will be nothing compared to what will come next.

[Trada]

Spanish senate have imposed direct rule on Catalonia.

[PhilV]

This is going to become extremely messy isn't it?

and not a moment later...

Spanish senate have imposed direct rule on Catalonia.

Yup - Prepare for a shitstorm

[Jake]

Was in favour of catalan having what they want when I saw the heavy handed policing, but then when I saw their reasoning was that they earned more than they recouped and didn't want to support the less prosperous parts of Spain I changed my mind.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

Was in favour of catalan having what they want when I saw the heavy handed policing, but then when I saw their reasoning was that they earned more than they recouped and didn't want to support the less prosperous parts of Spain I changed my mind.

Yeah, it really seems like a bunch of elitist twats feeling entitled not to support the poor.

[Iska]

No, the opinion and experiences of one man living in the region is not enough reason to declare independence. His words imply that Spaniards are bad with money, lazy and drink all night, arguments that are bordering on sterotypical bigotry that would be strongly disputed by Spaniards. He also says that Catalans hate bullfighting, conveniently forgetting that Catalonia has been bullfighting for 700 years and has some of the oldest and biggest bullrings in Spain. It has also produced some of the great toreros of all time, and they still hold bull runs and 'correbous' in many rural areas and on the Ebro Delta. 

I hated that Toibin pod - I got the feeling throughout that he wasn’t really talking about Catalonia so much as grinding some axe of his own.  The thing is that although his was presumably relating to some particular angle on Irish politics, you could map most of what he was saying onto Scotland too, and it would make us sound like a pretty unattractive nation, so I came out feeling much like this:

Yeah, it really seems like a bunch of elitist twats feeling entitled not to support the poor.

Even though there’s obviously a bit more to it than that.