Author Topic: Catalan Independence  (Read 44867 times)

Offline alonsoisared

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Catalan Independence
« on: September 22, 2017, 06:57:00 pm »
Well, in little over a week's time the people of Cataluña will be voting on whether they would like to become Independent from Spain. Except in true Spanish style it is nowhere as straighforward as that. The government in Madrid says that no vote will happen, that it is illegal and unconstitutional, and have ramped up efforts in recent days to ensure no referendum will take place on October 1st. Multiple people have been arrested for campaigning for independence or distributing ballot materials, as well as a Journalist who was charged for aiding preparations for the vote. The Guardia Civil is also now occupying Government buildings in Barcelona in an attempt to take control and to prevent the referendum from going ahead.

Not only is there disharmony coming from Madrid but also from within Cataluña itself. Of 900 mayors only 700 have agreed to the vote, meaning that if the vote does go ahead then a large number of constituents won't be able to take part. By no means would any vote be a landslide; a recent survey suggested 49 percent intended to vote against Independence while 41 percent were in favour. In 2014 however there was a different attempt to hold a vote, this one actually went ahead and 80 percent of those who voted were pro-independence. This vote was advisory only having also been declared illegal when originally announced.

Many on the pro-Independence side seem driven partially by economics; Cataluña is the richest of the regions of Spain and it contributes enormously to the country, but they feel they don't see enough coming back in. Still reeling from the crisis and with massive youth unemployment the idea of Independence seems to have energised the region. Primarily however it very much looks like a notion based on an emotional feeling; that they are Catalan and not Spanish, that they should be able to rule themselves. They feel that the repeated attempts to block any vote are undemocratic and the arrests and use of police to quash the movement is remeniscent of Franco-era Spain.

Those against Independence agree that the vote is an emotional rather than a logical one. However, they see this emotion as being one of superiority to the rest of the country and have grown sick of the noises coming from the region. They also argue that with the way the world is at the moment, togetherness is key and that we shouldn't seek to divide ourselves even more. The few people i've spoken to here in Madrid feel that it is an unwanted circus, illegal and unconstitutional. There is a feeling that people in Barcelona will use anything to make a political point,  citing the use of Catalan flags after the terrorist attacks in Barcelona a month ago.

This is only a very basic overview, I don't have the knowledge to delve deeper but it goes without saying that this is an awfully complicated and layered debate. Nobody seems to know what will happen come October 1st, but it is going to have huge implications for Spain and for Cataluña. I check the BBC a lot while i'm here and it never ceases to amaze me how little coverage they give to fellow European countries. Donald Trump could break wind and get the main headline plus 3 other major articles, but all these major events going on right on our doorstep rarely get more than a peep.

From my point of view, this particular vote shouldn't go ahead. Both sides need to sit down and make sure that a referendum happens but that it happens in the right circumstances. I would prefer to see Cataluña remain as part of Spain but I also believe that they should be given the chance to vote on it. Those campaigning for the vote to go ahead say that if they are promised a referendum which is legal in the eyes of the Government then they will scrap it. But if the Madrid governement refuses to budge, which seems to be the case, what more can they do? Either way, expect an extremely turbulant week ahead and an almighty backlash whatever should happen after October 1st.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2017, 09:16:06 pm »
I've been following this probably a lot closer than most due to the parallels with the Scottish independence movement and the resultant chat about it in the Scottish Twitterati. I don't have an opinion on whether Catalonia should be independent as I don't feel I know enough about it, but I think it's clear there should be a referendum, whatever the Spanish constitution currently says. From what I have read, support for independence is around 50% but there is overwhelming support for a referendum.

The Spanish governments response has been woeful, from both a moral, and strategical point of view, even if it has been legal (apart from their attempts to freeze the Catalan governments finances, which was ruled illegal). Demographics are on Spain's side, with more and more people moving to Catalonia from other parts of Spain due to it's economic prosperity, and these people are less inclined to support independence. But their actions, including seizing campaign materials, and threatening to arrest mayors who are supporting the referendum, will only stoke support for independence.

(Happy to be corrected on anything I've stated above, it's just information taken from tweets that I've not verified)

Offline Buggy Eyes Alfredo

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2017, 03:24:42 am »

The 'Rhapsody' and 'Moby Dada' docked in Barcelona, with the 'Azzura' in Tarragona harbor, carrying military police personnel. A ministerial order allows them to moor until 5 October.



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Spain’s deployment of boatloads of military police to Catalonia to prevent its independence referendum hit obstacles yesterday as dockers in two ports announced a boycott and a third denied them mooring.

More than 4000 members of Spain’s Guardia Civil are being dispatched to Catalonia amid concerns over divided loyalties in the autonomous community’s own police force, the Mossos d’ Esquadra. They are to be accommodated on four cruise ships - two in the port of Barcelona, one in Tarragona and another in Palamos.

But, as thousands took to the streets in Barcelona for a second day of protest over the detention of Catalan officials, local dock workers joined the backlash.

The Assembly of Stevedores of the Port of Barcelona announced that workers would not provide any services to boats carrying security forces, a decision it said was taken “in defence of civil rights”. Dock workers in Tarragona quickly followed suit.

The Catalan government meanwhile denied permission to dock in Palamos - which, unlike Barcelona and Tarragona, falls under regional rather than national control. While the official reason was that the port’s services were already “committed”, the head of the department responsible, Josep Rull i Andreu, tweeted: “In effect, we have not let them dock.”

The moves to thwart the deployment comes amid seething anger in Catalonia over Wednesday’s arrests of 14 people, most of them high ranking Catalan officials, during preparations for a referendum that has been declared illegal by Spain’s constitutional court.

Dramatic scenes unfolded across Barcelona and other Catalan towns as the Guardia Civil mounted 41 raids targeting government and presidential departments, as well as warehouses containing election material. Agents in riot gear pushed back crowds of incensed protesters, many shouting “fascists!” and “out with the forces of occupation!”.

But the role of the Catalan police was called into question after a tense night of demonstrations outside the department of economy, where 40,000 gathered as the Guardia Civil searched inside. A contingent of agents was blocked from leaving the building by the rowdy protesters, until the judge who ordered the raids reportedly called the head of the Mossos at midnight to tell him to “get them out of there”.

While the Spanish interior minister, Juan Ignacio Zoido, said only that he hoped “coordination will improve”, local media cited sources from the operation as saying the Mossos had dragged their feet on setting up a security cordon for the agents to depart.

Guardia Civil unions denounced the “harassment” of officers in Catalonia, the Unified Association of Guardia Civil tweeting photos of police vehicles destroyed by the protesters with the comment: “How much more do we have to put up with?”

The head of the Mossos, Major Josep Lluis Trapero, has a delicate line to tread. Ordered to enforce the ban on the referendum and related activities, the Catalan force finds itself at odds with the autonomous government as well as much of the populace.

The sensitivity of the situation was reflected in an order from Major Trapero on Wednesday that the his agents should be “especially careful with the use of force”.

While Catalans are split on the issue of independence, support for a vote is high, and few are happy with Spanish police arresting Catalan leaders, a sight which to many conjures memories of the Franco dictatorship.

on Thursday, some 10,000 protesters descended on the High Court of Justice in Barcelona to demand the detainees be released without charge and chanting “We will vote!”.

The operation was also denounced by 91 Left-wing members of the Spanish Congress, who said fundamental rights were being abused in Catalonia.

Tensions will only be further fuelled by reports yesterday that some of those detained are likely to face charges of sedition, which carries a lengthy prison sentence.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/21/boats-spanish-military-police-blocked-catalan-ports-unrest-grows/

Offline Buggy Eyes Alfredo

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2017, 03:51:25 am »

Statement from Carles Puigdemont, the 130th president of Catalonia.


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Sorry, Spain. Catalonia is voting on independence whether you like it or not.

After three centuries under Spanish rule, on Oct. 1, citizens of Catalonia will finally have the chance to exercise their right to self-determination. More than 5 million eligible voters will have the right to decide on a simple question: “Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic?”

The way to this historic referendum was paved by a majority decision of the Catalonian parliament. In our last regional election in September 2015, pro-independence parties won 47.8 percent of the vote, which gave them an absolute majority of seats. Unionist parties won 39.1 percent of the votes, a clear defeat, while the rest of the votes went to parties that defend the right to self-determination but are not necessarily in favor of independence. So there can be no denying the democratic legitimacy of our current Catalonian government. For this reason, after making several unsuccessful efforts to agree on the terms of the referendum with Spanish President Mariano Rajoy, I initiated the referendum.

In stark contrast to the governments of Canada or Britain, Madrid has refused to accept this democratic challenge, and has opted instead for the path of authoritarian repression. In most parts of the developed world, police protect ballot boxes, polling stations, and voters. In Catalonia today, the situation is the opposite. Spanish security forces are confiscating ballots and ballot boxes, stripping campaign posters from the walls, and intimidating citizens. They have arrested officials of the Catalan government, tapped telephones, raided private residences, and banned political rallies.

It seems incredible that this could happen in Spain in the 21st century. One French journalist recently noted that the Spanish government is acting more like Nicolás Maduro’s Venezuelan dictatorship than a healthy European democracy. And consider the fact that Catalonia, Spain, and other European countries are currently on maximum alert against jihadi terrorism. Instead of working to prevent possible attacks, Spain’s police forces are working to prevent the exercise of democracy. This is profoundly irresponsible.

The Spanish government has also gravely violated the freedom of expression and of information. Not only has it prohibited both public and private media from broadcasting advertisements about the referendum, it has also moved to block Catalan government websites that inform the public about the vote. Madrid has even blocked proxy servers, a procedure employed by only the most totalitarian regimes. The Spanish government not only wants to keep Catalans from voting, but also to prevent them from being informed.

This de facto state of siege to which the Spanish State has submitted Catalonia nullifies the autonomy conceded in 1979. A few days ago the central government seized control over Catalonia’s finances, thus imperiling the Catalan economy, which is the motor of the Spanish economy. Catalonia is responsible for almost 20 percent of Spanish GDP, and our exports comprise some 25 percent of all Spanish exports. Spain is thus gravely damaging its own economy as well as putting Catalonia’s at risk, and is even threatening to cut some of the social services to which Catalonia’s people are entitled. Madrid is thus punishing each and every citizen of Catalonia indiscriminately, whether or not they actually want independence.

The Spanish government has to understand that its behavior is unacceptable from the point of view of democracy and civil rights. Four decades after the death of the dictator Francisco Franco, we still find that authoritarian instincts rule at the heart of the Madrid government. Respect for minorities is a fundamental human right, and the right of self-determination is an irrevocable right of all nations.

Our commitment to the right of self-determination and to the will of the Catalan people to decide its own future remains unshaken. The repression of the Spanish government will not be able to change that. On Oct. 1, citizens of Catalonia will exercise their right to decide whether they want to become a new independent republic, just like other peoples of the world have done before them. This is the moment of the people of Catalonia, but we are not alone in this fight. We call on democrats around the world to give support to this long struggle between freedom and authoritarianism.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2017/09/22/sorry-spain-catalonia-is-voting-on-independence-whether-you-like-it-or-not/?utm_term=.45e6138604d4

Offline alonsoisared

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2017, 10:40:26 am »
Statement from Carles Puigdemont, the 130th president of Catalonia.

The response to this from the Spanish embassador in the UK, Carlos Bastarreche

Quote
In his article (Spain’s abuses in Catalonia violate EU law, 22 September) the Catalan president, Carles Puigdemont, includes a number of accusations that are simply untrue. He affirms that the Spanish government is violating European values and civil rights by sending the police to “imprison democratically elected politicians”, among other activities. He mentions specifically the searches and arrests of the “paramilitary police” which took place on 20 September, and considers that they have driven Catalonia “to a de facto state of emergency” violating “the European charter of fundamental rights”.

The government did not send the police to those regional government buildings, offices and private homes. It was a judge in Barcelona who ordered the police operation, a judge who acts in accordance with the principle of separation of powers, as happens in every other modern democracy. Moreover, the judge has the backing of the constitutional court. The civil guard – which in no means is a paramilitary force – fulfilled its role of judicial police. As for the pretended state of emergency, the freely exercised freedom of demonstration shown in the streets of Barcelona clearly denies Puigdemont’s false accusation. No single civil right has been suspended.

He argues that “Catalan home rule has effectively been suspended”. Once again, this assertion is false. None of the legitimate activities of the Catalan government granted by its regional charter have been suspended. On the contrary, the Catalan government is not entitled to organise a secessionist referendum, as the constitutional court has stated. Therefore the rule of law is simply doing its work. Puigdemont says that Madrid has rejected all possibility of dialogue and the prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, has employed “aggressive tactics”. The government has attempted and is still offering dialogue. Puigdemont has been invited to express his ideas in parliament and has refused. But “dialogue” for him implies authorising a referendum which goes against Spain’s fundamental law.

Puigdemont says “all we want is to carry out the greatest expression of free democracy”, but his projected referendum – that will not take place – is rather the result of a process that repeals constitutional democracy and their own charter of self-government. The laws recently approved by the regional parliament failed to comply with their own rules and denied parliamentary rights of Catalan deputies. When a series of falsehoods are stated in this manner, it is our right and duty to respond. As Mahatma Gandhi reminded us: “Truth never damages a cause that is just”.
Carlos Bastarreche
Ambassador of Spain to the UK

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2017, 08:15:03 pm »
As debate over Catalan independence grows, where would that leave FC Barcelona? A look at where the club stands: http://bbc.in/2fIoYTr

Offline thejbs

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2017, 02:38:44 am »
As debate over Catalan independence grows, where would that leave FC Barcelona? A look at where the club stands: http://bbc.in/2fIoYTr

There is no question that they'd remain in La Liga if they wished, despite the posturing from Tebas.  It would be a footballing administrative decision tat would have nothing to do with the politics of the state.  And Barca is worth too much to the league for them to consider letting them go.  An independent Catalonia would make the Madrid-Barca rivalry more fierce and profitable if anything.

It's also far from a unique situation. FC Andorra already play in the Spanish league system. Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Wrexham all play in the English leagues.  Derry City play in the League of Ireland. AS Monaco play in the French League. The MLS has teams from Canada. I'm sure there are a load of others that play or have played in foreign leagues and cups.

Offline alonsoisared

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2017, 12:45:47 pm »
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/23/anger-madrid-catalans-independence-vote

Interesting read in the Guardian about the view from Madrid.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2017, 01:55:29 pm »
Have had a friend who suffered with racism while living in Barcelona so I view a nationalist push in the region with great scepticism. Might be stupid to connect the two but it's all I can think of. More division and promotion of someone's own cultural heritage over others. No thanks. Can't wait for the world to be over this BS.

Offline DJBrenton

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2017, 09:36:49 am »
I'm going to be there when the referendum does/does not take place. I'll be sure to find polling stations to see what's happening.
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2017, 07:04:47 pm »
This is starting to get a bit hairy. The Spanish government seem to be getting quite heavy handed and belligerent, which will surely only backfire on them.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2017, 07:32:09 pm »
This is starting to get a bit hairy. The Spanish government seem to be getting quite heavy handed and belligerent, which will surely only backfire on them.

Normal service resumed then.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #12 on: October 1, 2017, 08:26:32 am »
Shocking scenes of people being dragged out of polling stations by riot police.

Really heavy handed
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #13 on: October 1, 2017, 09:01:11 am »
Shocking scenes of people being dragged out of polling stations by riot police.

Really heavy handed

They're still fascists at heart.

What are they thinking going in mob handed to stop a vote when they've already deemed the result illegal,it will only strengthen the resolve of the Basque people and more than likely re-energise ETA.
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #14 on: October 1, 2017, 09:01:24 am »
Safe to say this has put the scottish and eu referendum here to shame with the amount of aggression.

Will be interesting to see if those who do vote do plump for Independence.

Offline alonsoisared

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #15 on: October 1, 2017, 09:14:36 am »
Safe to say this has put the scottish and eu referendum here to shame with the amount of aggression.

Will be interesting to see if those who do vote do plump for Independence.
You would assume so. I guess that those going to vote knowing that it's not going to be easy with police presence and possible chaos are more likely to be the ones passionate for Independence rather than those who don't want to leave.

The scenes so far this morning will be uncomfortable for Madrid, that's for sure. But they have to follow through, don't they? They've said it's illegal and they will block it, everyone knew this would happen today. Still, like I said, it's certainly not a good look and no doubt the Franco/Fascist labels will be thrown at them in the following days.

Surely in the aftermath of this utter mess, the two sides have to sit down and organise a proper vote, with proper debate, and settle it once and for all? Neither side have covered themselves in any sort of glory here.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #16 on: October 1, 2017, 09:35:28 am »
Some shocking scenes this morning. Fucking vermin police.

Check out @MStothard’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/MStothard/status/914383185936621568?s=08

Check out @fmarin_ES’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/fmarin_ES/status/914390368770240512?s=08

https://twitter.com/AndyMitten/status/914403073551994880

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #17 on: October 1, 2017, 09:37:57 am »
You would assume so. I guess that those going to vote knowing that it's not going to be easy with police presence and possible chaos are more likely to be the ones passionate for Independence rather than those who don't want to leave.

The scenes so far this morning will be uncomfortable for Madrid, that's for sure. But they have to follow through, don't they? They've said it's illegal and they will block it, everyone knew this would happen today. Still, like I said, it's certainly not a good look and no doubt the Franco/Fascist labels will be thrown at them in the following days.

Surely in the aftermath of this utter mess, the two sides have to sit down and organise a proper vote, with proper debate, and settle it once and for all? Neither side have covered themselves in any sort of glory here.

They should allow the vote for sure. Clearly a significant chunk want independence and if so they should get the chance to make it happen.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #18 on: October 1, 2017, 09:45:50 am »
And now head of La Liga said if the referandum result is for independence; Catalan teams Barcelona, Espanyol and Girona will not be included in La Liga.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #19 on: October 1, 2017, 09:48:17 am »
And now head of La Liga said if the referandum result is for independence; Catalan teams Barcelona, Espanyol and Girona will not be included in La Liga.

Brilliant. Let it happen.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #20 on: October 1, 2017, 09:50:00 am »
And now head of La Liga said if the referandum result is for independence; Catalan teams Barcelona, Espanyol and Girona will not be included in La Liga.

Stupidity from La Liga if that did happen. It'd just be a higher quality version of the SPL.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #21 on: October 1, 2017, 09:52:38 am »
Stupidity from La Liga if that did happen. It'd just be a higher quality version of the SPL.
I’m not sure it is.

If it were a different country, how could it play in their league?
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Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #22 on: October 1, 2017, 09:55:35 am »
I’m not sure it is.

If it were a different country, how could it play in their league?

It's cutting off your nose to spite your face. The Barcelona-Real Madrid rivalry is what drives the interest in that league, take that away and there's very little to keep people interested. Monaco is not part of France but Ligue 1 is not stupid enough to exclude them. 

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #23 on: October 1, 2017, 09:56:48 am »
It's cutting off your nose to spite your face. The Barcelona-Real Madrid rivalry is what drives the interest in that league, take that away and there's very little to keep people interested. Monaco is not part of France but Ligue 1 is not stupid enough to exclude them. 

I know, it would be terrible for Barcelona, Madrid and that league. So lets make it happen.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #24 on: October 1, 2017, 10:00:10 am »
I know, it would be terrible for Barcelona, Madrid and that league. So lets make it happen.

I don't think it'd be terrible for Barcelona to be honest. I think another big European League would be only too willing to have Messi playing in their league. Spanish clubs would be the losers, especially the smaller clubs.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #25 on: October 1, 2017, 10:03:17 am »
I don't think it'd be terrible for Barcelona to be honest. I think another big European League would be only too willing to have Messi playing in their league. Spanish clubs would be the losers, especially the smaller clubs.

I guess the SPL would be more then happy to have them.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #26 on: October 1, 2017, 10:04:14 am »
I guess the SPL would be more then happy to have them.

Could easily see Ligue 1 offering them a place.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #27 on: October 1, 2017, 10:04:18 am »
La Liga will be fun when Real Madrid wins 99 titles of 100 and Atletico takes the other. ;)

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #28 on: October 1, 2017, 10:04:57 am »
It's cutting off your nose to spite your face. The Barcelona-Real Madrid rivalry is what drives the interest in that league, take that away and there's very little to keep people interested. Monaco is not part of France but Ligue 1 is not stupid enough to exclude them. 
You can’t play in a different countries league though, surely??
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #29 on: October 1, 2017, 10:05:23 am »
The fucking fascist thugs areb slinging OAPs about.

Could've just said that they do not recognise the result but oh no insted they go in mob handed.

And they wonder why the people on the rock want fuck all to do with them.
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Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #30 on: October 1, 2017, 10:06:20 am »
You can’t play in a different countries league though, surely??

Monaco is a sovereign nation, yet it's main football team plays in Ligue 1. Wellington Phoenix play in the A-League as well. It does happen.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #31 on: October 1, 2017, 10:06:23 am »
You can’t play in a different countries league though, surely??

Only in countries that do,like the Prem,French league and a few others.
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #32 on: October 1, 2017, 10:11:12 am »
I just talked to my college friend Xavi, he said police are closing the polling places and don't let them vote, they shut down the internet and voters can not check the electerol register. He says they need international support from leaders like Merkel, Trump, May etc they can push Spanish government to make a legal referandum where obviously only Catalonia residents would be allowed to vote.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #33 on: October 1, 2017, 10:12:51 am »
Monaco is a sovereign nation, yet it's main football team plays in Ligue 1. Wellington Phoenix play in the A-League as well. It does happen.
Canadian football, basketball, baseball, hockey teams play in USA leagues as well, plenty of examples.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #34 on: October 1, 2017, 10:18:08 am »
Pigs aren firing rubber bullets at them now.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote
Blai Antonio, a 76-year-old retired taxi driver emerged from the polling station at the Escuela Mireia triumphant and with tears in his eyes. Pushing through a cheering crowd, he said: “The experience of being able to vote has given me a satisfaction I could never have dreamt of. It would have been impossible under Franco - although his heirs are still in power. Catalan independence is important so that we can live in a democracy, which Spain isn’t. We send all our money to the government and get crumbs in return.”

Antonio said that, unlike some others, he had been able to vote in peace. “The oppressive police haven’t come here yet but we still have the whole day ahead of us and they could come and steal the ballot boxes with our votes in them. We just want to be able to vote free of the oppression of any state.”

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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #35 on: October 1, 2017, 10:22:55 am »




What are they so afraid of ?
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #36 on: October 1, 2017, 10:24:58 am »
The firemen and women have been superb throughout

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #37 on: October 1, 2017, 10:47:08 am »
Breaking news on BBC that the police are firing rubber bullets into the crowd.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #39 on: October 1, 2017, 11:08:38 am »
I’m not sure it is.

If it were a different country, how could it play in their league?

Maybe ask Cardiff. Or Swansea. Or Wrexham. Or Derry City.  Or Monaco.  Or FC Toronto. Or FC Andorra (giving a Spanish precedent). Or Vancouver Whitecaps. Or Montreal Impact.