Author Topic: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool  (Read 8585 times)

Offline Hinesy

  • RAWK Editor. Giving it BAFTA’s. 57'sy. Caramel log dealer and comma chameleon. Tory Totty Tonguer
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,311
round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« on: April 28, 2012, 08:43:46 pm »
Well, a wonderful set of finishes from Luis, and otherwise didn't see much of it, so will have to take the 5th and ask opinions. But questions: was Kenny right to play Gerrard and major players in a to be honest dead rubber?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 06:45:13 pm by hinesy »
Yep.

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2012, 09:19:58 pm »
Well, what can you say? We could go down the mealy mouthed route and say 'where's that form been all year' and such like, but that ought to have been a wee reminder of what made you fall in love with the game in the first place, albeit it was his manager who first inspired those feelings in me as a nipper. That centre half is gonna need some time in a flotation tank.

That third goal. And the chip. And... Christ - he can play when he's on form, can't he? That was reminiscent of the performance he put in at Fulham last season. If you're Lambert though, you're expecting the keeper to tip that third one over. ;)

I like Jordan in the middle, I have to say. I wish we'd tried a little more of that a little earlier. But everything looks a little more joined up when Agger's in the side, doesn't it? Felt for Jonjo missing that sitter... and as for Vaughan - Pepe's achilles flashed in front of our eyes for a second there. You wondered if Doni might get his moment after all.

It was extra sweet after hearing the local yokels trot out the increasingly staple 'Always the victim' nonsense, but it was good to see reports of the Travelling Kop retorting with "Always the livestock, it's never your wives".

Offline Degs

  • sy's midnight runners.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,444
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2012, 11:17:09 pm »
The glaring change to our play today was the return of Steven Gerrard to the place where he once inspired nightmares in all Premier League players, just off the front man.

As good as Steven Gerrard is the almost insatiable appetite from the media, and anybody connected with the "English" mentality, for an "old fashioned centre midfielder" is a ridiculous fallacy that we have fallen in to. The hypothesis says you can't truly be a great midfielder if you aren't tethered to the halfway line and trying to break from your shackles simultaneously at either end of the pitch.

If Zinedine Zidane, Totti, Kaka or any of the great "Trequartistas" of our age were born in Whiston we'd have heard calls for the last 10 years to stick them in the middle of the park where they could have a "greater impact" on the game (equally so Gerrardinho from Sao Paulo would be excused this task for fear he just didn't have that natural tenacity for getting stuck in).

As good as Gerrard is he is wasted in central midfield, especially in a team like ours in which the movement off the ball can be equated to that of an Arctic Glacier in mid-November.  With the odd 40 yard ball aside Gerrard is unable to unlock a defence with his slide-rule passes along the floor and naturally drifts wide to put the ball in via crosses (which while effective leave big gaps in the middle when the ball is cleared).  His tackling is reckless.

Today we saw Steven Gerrard in his best position and on form. Unsurprisingly Suarez came alive as he had a man close to him, with pace, who was dragging players away and creating space, and providing a release for him should he need it.  Whisper it in hushed tones but it had all the hallmarks of Torres/Gerrard.

While Gerrard is to be commended it was Suarez's day and for a lad who "can't finish" to score left-foot, right-foot, 50 yarder is some feat.  It must be noted though that if Suarez would have come away having hit the left-post, right-post, crossbar combo we would have been hearing tales of "bad luck" while nobody dare suggest that today's finishes were the result of "good luck", if anything those 3 goals today demonstrate the absurdity of the notion of "luck".

This result though raises more questions than answers: The Andy Carroll Conundrum.

Andy Carroll does his job, and he does it to a good standard.  He is required to stand 15 yards behind Luis Suarez and win everything that comes to him above shoulder height, he is by no means Falcao (a goalscorer more akin to tank than man) but it can not be argued that Andy Carroll does not "do his job".

Carroll though is limited: he has no pace, his shooting is erratic and his goalscoring record is stagnant. 
A masterclass like that performed by Steven Gerrard today shows that while a traditional big-man/small-man partnership does occasionally get results it is the slide-rule Attacking Mid/Striker partnership that will cause the most damage.

It leaves a lingering question in the mind, while Andy Carroll is not a "bad" player is he simply the "wrong" player? If Steven Gerrard is our most deadly option behind Suarez should we not be trying to replicate him when he's not there rather than returning to the old-school Carroll system?

Jordan Henderson has shown in the past 2 matches he has the skill and mentality to play the holding midfield role he has been denied the chance of performing in for the majority of the season.  Gerrard is not needed, and dare I say wanted, in this position while he can be performing at his best hanging off Suarez.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 11:21:52 pm by Degs »

Offline Vulmea

  • Almost saint-like.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,329
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2012, 12:38:06 am »
Norwich were poor.

We scored from a bad mistake by them. We scored again from a bad mistake by them. We then played well. We created chances. We hit the bar, Missed three sitters. They then missed two half chances. We scored a fantastic third after a mistake by them, game over.

We played better last week and lost. We played better against QPR went 2- 0 up and lost when they took a half  chance and gained some belief - there's no such thing as luck my arse.

Maybe, just maybe, Henderson wouldn't have been able to play that central role in the first half of the season, maybe only now he's got his head together is it sensible to put him in there.

Downing has played better. Enrique has played better.

Gerrard - off the striker his best position, nah not convinced by that either - he's largely anonymous with his back to goal - he's best in a free role, particularly with the game in front of him.

Nobody slagging Carra?  Skrtel our best defender this season was missing and we kept a clean sheet. All down to Agger presumably. Surely Coates should have started not the auld timer. 

Oh and Norwich were poor............


The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2012, 09:38:52 am »
Henderson hasn't played centrally since Adam's injury for the most part though mate, has he?

He has the ability to sit, with Jonjo having the ability to knit, which helps Gerrard be da shit. I agree about West Brom and QPR.

I think Carragher needs to be moved on to a coaching or ambassadorial role, or both, and a single game won't change that.

Offline Vulmea

  • Almost saint-like.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,329
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2012, 02:13:45 pm »
Henderson hasn't played centrally since Adam's injury for the most part though mate, has he?

He has the ability to sit, with Jonjo having the ability to knit, which helps Gerrard be da shit. I agree about West Brom and QPR.

I think Carragher needs to be moved on to a coaching or ambassadorial role, or both, and a single game won't change that.

Haven't we been allowing Spearing the opportunity to grow into the role?

Haven't we been trying to combine Carroll and Suarez meaning no opportunity to give Gerrard a free role?

I like Henderson, I think he has a good future but he's had a few stinkers this season, twice subbed at half time, a bag of nerves against Cardiff, I dont think we'd have done him any favours giving him the responsibility to hold midfield if he was feeling nervous about it - I think we should give a bit more respect to those that work with him every day, he's in good form at the moment, perfect opportunity.

Its not a single game though is it. There have been calls for Carra to be moved on, phased out, whatever for three years. I'm not disputing his new contract was a travesty, it should have been a contract for a squad player however he's shown in more than a few games this season that he is still a decent player, not least because he's generally fit and available. Every mistake he makes is put down to his age. Was Johnson's last week because he's getting on, how about Skrtels whopper against Wigan kicking a blokes head off in the box, an age thing? People see what they want to see and its convenient to just blame Carra for most things. He's a scapegoat, if nothing else at least it keeps the criticism away from everybody else.

The coaching role may work because I think once the pressure is off him he could be a good mentor to the younger lads, less screeching and more educating. He seems to have done a good job with Kelly and Flanagan. One thing Owen said about him always stuck with me, that he's capable of playing anywhere because he understands the needs  of the position - as age creeps up, understanding and delivering are different things but he's played across the back four and centre mid , he is clearly a great reader of the game if he can communicate some of that then the youngsters could benefit a great deal.
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Offline Juan Loco

  • down in Acapulco. LIkes 'em salty and succulent, the wee lambies!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,902
  • We've got our valuation and we're sticking to it
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2012, 02:50:04 pm »
Could discuss Henderson in the centre or Gerrard just off the front, but it'd be a waste to go on about anything other Luis Suarez, who basically lit up a very average game. We weren't super-fluid. We've played much, much better this year and lost. All three goals came from Norwich mistakes, and two of them were Suarez himself capitalising on them. Sure, Gerrard may be best used off the front, but we only really saw him and Suarez link twice, for the first goal and for the chance Suarez pulled back to him. Today was just the Luis Suarez show and nothing else about the game really stood out, with the possible exception of Enrique looking like he was coming back into form ahead of the cup final.

They were three goals of the class that makes you consider just where and how Suarez would do his best work, with Kenny intent on playing him centrally. The third you can look at in isolation as just being something extraordinary, arguably goal of a season and further evidence for my one-man campaign for the FIFA to count chips as double. Those first two goals though, man, they were just so clinical. I heard someone criticise Ruddy's positioning for the first - I'm not sure why. Suarez hits the ball so early, and so hard. The ball is curling into the side of the net. The angle the ball is going, if there was no net it would've probably swung back around and out for a throw. The second goal was even better. I'm not sure it was the best of the three, but it was something special in its self. I don't think he could've scored it any other way. If it's an inch either side it's saved or hits the post. It only gets in at that angle, at that pace. You hear the words "exocet" from commentators far too often to describe run of the mill blasts from outside the box. This was far more deserving of the title.

No doubts in my mind that this is the most talented player in the league. We haven't got enough of it this season for whatever reason, but at least we've got him.

Oh, and those nutmegs...
"It's the football philosophy that counts, not the system."

A fully signed-up member of SPAS
The Stuart Pearce Apologist Society

Offline Hinesy

  • RAWK Editor. Giving it BAFTA’s. 57'sy. Caramel log dealer and comma chameleon. Tory Totty Tonguer
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,311
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2012, 06:45:55 pm »
bump
Yep.

Offline iamrobk

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,260
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2012, 06:52:59 pm »
This may sound too negative, and I'm hesitant to even ask since it may be a dumb question, but anyone else still concerned that none of our goals yesterday came from chances we created through our own play?  The first 2 came from quick counters off Norwich's mistakes, and the 3rd was... well, special.  But we still didn't create any goals through our own possession and build-up play.  If we're going to play as more of a counter-attacking team, I suppose it doesn't matter, but if we want to play as a possession team, it's a problem.  Any thoughts?

Offline helmboy_nige

  • A diplomat... except in the face of total morons
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,616
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2012, 07:02:01 pm »
Very good performance.  Regardless of the mistakes made by Norwich, it was the high tempo style employed by Liverpool that caused terror in the ranks.

Suarez was simply incredible and benefited from having Gerrard behind him.  I'd really hope to see more of this style employed.

Henderson looked good holding the midfield together and Shelvey grew in confidence throughout the game.  Both of them look to have a great future.

Downing was the only disappointment for me, but I thought he improved in the second half.

Offline Stevo79

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2012, 07:17:47 pm »
I do like Henderson in that central role and it looks like one he could really grow into, especially alongside Lucas when he's back. There were a few times yesterday that there was space between the back four and midfield that I'm certain would be exploited by Chelsea, but on the whole it looked good and think with Skrtel back in it will help.

That was the Luis we all know and love and is the kind of finishing that I'm sure he can produce on a regular basis, I could watch that hattrick over and over.

It's a shame Shelvey's header wasn't a few inches lower or he could have made contact on the open goal, however it would be great to see him start in the final, he could be a big player for us next weekend.

I agree with the above, everything just seems a little more knitted together and solid when Agger is on the pitch, he really is vital for us.

Offline SmallwoodRed

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 544
  • remember april 1989
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2012, 07:19:21 pm »
The glaring change to our play today was the return of Steven Gerrard to the place where he once inspired nightmares in all Premier League players, just off the front man.

As good as Steven Gerrard is the almost insatiable appetite from the media, and anybody connected with the "English" mentality, for an "old fashioned centre midfielder" is a ridiculous fallacy that we have fallen in to. The hypothesis says you can't truly be a great midfielder if you aren't tethered to the halfway line and trying to break from your shackles simultaneously at either end of the pitch.

If Zinedine Zidane, Totti, Kaka or any of the great "Trequartistas" of our age were born in Whiston we'd have heard calls for the last 10 years to stick them in the middle of the park where they could have a "greater impact" on the game (equally so Gerrardinho from Sao Paulo would be excused this task for fear he just didn't have that natural tenacity for getting stuck in).

As good as Gerrard is he is wasted in central midfield, especially in a team like ours in which the movement off the ball can be equated to that of an Arctic Glacier in mid-November.  With the odd 40 yard ball aside Gerrard is unable to unlock a defence with his slide-rule passes along the floor and naturally drifts wide to put the ball in via crosses (which while effective leave big gaps in the middle when the ball is cleared).  His tackling is reckless.

Today we saw Steven Gerrard in his best position and on form. Unsurprisingly Suarez came alive as he had a man close to him, with pace, who was dragging players away and creating space, and providing a release for him should he need it.  Whisper it in hushed tones but it had all the hallmarks of Torres/Gerrard.

While Gerrard is to be commended it was Suarez's day and for a lad who "can't finish" to score left-foot, right-foot, 50 yarder is some feat.  It must be noted though that if Suarez would have come away having hit the left-post, right-post, crossbar combo we would have been hearing tales of "bad luck" while nobody dare suggest that today's finishes were the result of "good luck", if anything those 3 goals today demonstrate the absurdity of the notion of "luck".

This result though raises more questions than answers: The Andy Carroll Conundrum.

Andy Carroll does his job, and he does it to a good standard.  He is required to stand 15 yards behind Luis Suarez and win everything that comes to him above shoulder height, he is by no means Falcao (a goalscorer more akin to tank than man) but it can not be argued that Andy Carroll does not "do his job".

Carroll though is limited: he has no pace, his shooting is erratic and his goalscoring record is stagnant. 
A masterclass like that performed by Steven Gerrard today shows that while a traditional big-man/small-man partnership does occasionally get results it is the slide-rule Attacking Mid/Striker partnership that will cause the most damage.

It leaves a lingering question in the mind, while Andy Carroll is not a "bad" player is he simply the "wrong" player? If Steven Gerrard is our most deadly option behind Suarez should we not be trying to replicate him when he's not there rather than returning to the old-school Carroll system?

Jordan Henderson has shown in the past 2 matches he has the skill and mentality to play the holding midfield role he has been denied the chance of performing in for the majority of the season.  Gerrard is not needed, and dare I say wanted, in this position while he can be performing at his best hanging off Suarez.

Degs - I think your summary of the game is spot on:

- Carroll is ok at what he does but what he does is not world beating.
- Gerrard is best off the front not in deep lying centre mid
- Henderson is not a right sided midlfielder but ovewhelming better in the middle.

Its a shame its taken a season for the management to realise these things.



Offline Suarez 7

  • Please Ban Andy, Please Please, Please!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,124
  • Bring Rafa Home.
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2012, 07:26:11 pm »
Ok, well, I'll start with the result. It was a great result. Very few times this season we have won 3-0, struggling to even remember one in the league, but yesterday, we wnt to a difficult ground, against a newly promoted team, something we often struggle with, and systematically took them apart. The overall team performance was very controlled, and efficient. We were not electrifying, but that is no a problem when you are two goals up by the HT whistle and keeping the opposition very quiet.

Pepe Reina did not have much to do yesterday, which is ofcourse a good thing, but what he did do, he did reasonably well. Pepe has not been at his best this season, and has been as poor as he has in years, and at times this season I have heavily questioned his handling especially, but yesterday he was solid. His distribution was pretty good, and his shot stopping was solid enough.
Enrique looked nervous to me at the beginning of the game, and alot of the time when he got the ball, he just seemed to hit it forward, but as the game grew, so did he his performance. He provided a solid defensive for the left side, and was good going forward.
Agger was Agger. Classy as fuck. The boy is a player, and every time I see him he just steals the show at the back with his passing and strides forward.
Johnson played well also at RB. Delighted to see that last weeks mistake did not have to much of a negative impact on him. He was shaky at times but more often than not, he was solid at the back and going forward, he really is such an asset to this club. The outlet he provides on the right hand side is brilliant, and he is one of the best forward thinking RBs in the league.

Shelvey was good yesterday, very solid in the midfield and all season long a major issue we have had is midfielders breaking into the box, yesterday he did this on more than one occassion. This encouraged me alot as I like to see that from a young midfielder.
Henderson was classy. He gets alot of stick this boy, but for me, he is going to be boss. Yesterday he just did his job, kept the ball moving, kept possession, got the ball and moved it on and was always an option. Him doing this helped to recycle the ball, and is what helped us have a stronghold on possession and the game as a whole. As he gets more and more confident, he will get better and better. Yesterday he helped provide that base that allowed the like of Gerrard to push forward and cause problems. Cannot wait to see this lad playing next to Lucas next season.
Bellamy was good yesterday as well and his pace and tenacity really give us an extra dimension from the left. He likes to cut in and this helped Enrique to have space for the overlap. Good performance, and did what was asked.

Now on to the stars of the show. Mr Steven Gerrard and Luis Suarez. These two really are special talents who would walk into any team in the land. Steven started the game a bit deeper, and in the early stages I was very frustrated at seeing him so far back again, but after he pushed forward, everything fell into place. Sensational pressing which led to the 1st goal, as pressing high is something I like to see from the team, and Gerrards pass to Luis was brilliant, he had only one chance at it and got it inch perfect. As the game progressed he got better and better, and showed what an asset he is to this club when he is playing in the CAM position. It frees him up and lets him do what he does best, and that is destroy the opposition.
As for Luis, well, what a performance. A well deserved and beautifully taken hat trick. His refusal to give up is what sets him apart from so many of the worlds best strikers, because this boy would die for the team. The first goal was a great finish, the 2nd even better, and the third, well, goal of the season. The awereness to pull that off is fantastic, and the ability to actually do it is even more sensational than the awareness to spot it. Should have had 4 with the nutmeg then the chip, and that is something that he has been doing all season, wonderful skill to get the chance then fluffing the chance after chance, but yesterday thankfully he only fluffed one and bagged the other three. This lad is something special, and we need to surround him with other quality. Look at what happened yesterday when we had a player like Gerrard close to him. Bringing in quality that cinplements this boy tshould be the target in the summer, and if we need to spend big to do it then so be it. Players like Cavani or Huntelaar for example would help take the goal scoring burden off him and let him just play, and would also take away some of the attention of the defenders who know that Luis is our main goal threat.

You may have noticed I left two players out. Jamie Carragher and Stewart Downing. Thats because they for me were the only two negatives.
Carra was not a negative because of how he played, but because he played at all. Coates for me has to be getting games, and I just cannot understand why Jamie seems to be constantly picked ahead of him whether its a league game or whether its an FA Cup Semi Final. When he got on the pitch he did his usual throwing himself infront of everything and thats what Jamie is best at. If we were playing Barca and going to be camped on the edge of our own box then yeah, maybe play him because he won't have to do much running and the line will already be deep, but yesterday, his constant hoofing was absolutely mental. He was hoofing it under no pressure and not even directing it, this and essentially setting up base camp in Pepe Reina's back pocket brought some needless pressure at poiints yesterday.

Now Downing, well, he just gets poorer every game. The rest of the attack was playing well yesterday and still, he could not make any sort of impact. He had a couple half chances and nice little runs but the majority of the game was spent cutting in and giving the ball away. He just is not good enough and its becoming more evident after every game. I wont be suprised to see him moved on this summer because he is no more than a squad player, and offers nothing that Maxi, Kuyt or even Sterling can't offer.

Overall, good, efficient team performance with very few negatives. Gerrard and Suarez are outstanding. Roll on Tuesday.
Rafa Benitez. The man who made us dream again.

Offline pewithree3

  • Has a grumpy old female arse.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,324
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2012, 08:17:58 pm »
The third goal will get all the plaudits but to see how hard,
straight and true  the second goal was hit was outstanding.

With Gerard playing in support of Suarez I think that next
season a pairing of Lucas and Henderson could be a bit special.


Offline bailey90

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,801
  • YNWA
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2012, 08:22:56 pm »
This seems like such a small part of the match but seems like such a big thing we've been missing. When shelvey missed that chance from about 3 yards out, we had about 5 players in the box. I can't remember the last time we had so many in there on an attack, the widemen usually only have 1/2 players to aim for.
Twitter: @Bailey_90

Offline kopite_sg8

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
  • year-zero, clean slate blah blah blah ..
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2012, 08:27:39 pm »
welcome back steven gerrard! i'm surprised (maybe shouldnt be) that nobody mentioned much of this in the post match thread. he played with an arrogance of a world class footballer again. yes yes its only against norwich but if this continuous, we could have a good finish to the season.
somewhere between a 'fsg-apologist' and a 'superfan'.

Offline liverpoollovefc

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 72
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2012, 08:36:03 pm »
The boys needed to stay loose for the final.  It's still important we don't finish outside the top half... If we just gave up the rest of our games it would send the wrong message.  We need to push to finish as high as possible (would be nice to beat out everton, tho at their form will be very difficult).  Good players will be turned off by a finish outside the top half, and feel the players in the squad gave up.  We need to keep playing as well as possible, let Suarez and Andy continue to click a bit, and if they keep scoring goals together then they'll be thrilled and ready for next season.

Suarez keeps going and Andy starts scoring consistently like he has, we could get 50 goals between the two of them next season.

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 93,680
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2012, 08:39:43 pm »
Did someone say trequarista??  Oh Blimey.....

I suppose it's one of those matches that we have drawn and lost so many of this season....

We dominated possession, but made our chances count....

It will be intersting to see our midfield in the FA cup final, I suspect that gerrard will be used deeper, but the shackles need to be freed as he is such a wonderful talent....

I mock the word trequarista (rightly so ;)) but Gerrard deserves to be up their a hairs breadth below zidane, even zidane agrees..

I'm glad carra had a good game, he's past it now, but he's given the club so much that I don't like to see him struggle.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Not A Scouser

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 498
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2012, 08:42:25 pm »
All three goals were created by stealing the ball from the opposition high up the pitch and breaking against a small number of disorganized defenders.  We didn't score against a set defence (as usual).  This is the difference between "playing well, passing the ball well, creating lots of chances" and having a player able to shoot without pressure from defenders.  At no point did Suarez have to snatch at a shot in a packed penalty area.  Compare this game to the WBA game where every one of our attacks was against a stacked penalty area. 

The most effective ways to score are on a quick counter-attack or by stealing the ball in the other team's half and getting it into the box with as few touches as  possible.  I've been saying this for weeks and this was the first time we pressured their defence into mistakes.  It did help that Norwich were trying to win the game and so didn't park the bus.

I liked this new formation with Henderson as the holding midfielder (I've been saying he's the long term patrner/replacement for Lucas) and Shelvey and Gerrard as attacking midfielders in front of him.


Offline Arcadian

  • Makes pissed even when sense!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,598
  • Be the change you want to see in the world...
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2012, 09:04:18 pm »

As per usual, some stout posts from some savage posters.

Asked a question in the post match but it got locked before too many could reply... but it was essentially this...

Who are Norwich to us and who are we to Norwich? Why the victims chant? We have no past history with them do we?


*                         *                           *                            *                         *

Offline leivapool

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,835
  • Pass and move!
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2012, 09:46:05 pm »
I've held my toggue regarding  him all season, but Dear God, Stewart Downing is pants.  Might have bags of ability, but so rarely uses it it may as well not be there!  Way too timid for a top team, and the thought of him being our one remaining fit wide player next season, (after Maxi and Kuyt have gone and with Bellamy getting on a bit) is truly terrifying.

Suarez was excellent, but I was expecting a little bit more from Norwich if I'm honest...........and as others have said, bar moments of genius from Suarez we didn't actually create all that much.

Anyways, a wins a win.
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


Henderson won't make it here. Sorry but he won't and won't

Online Yorkykopite

  • Misses Danny Boy with a passion. Phil's Official Biographer, dontcherknow...it's all true. Honestly.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,235
  • The first five yards........
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2012, 09:58:44 pm »
In praise of......

*The extra joint in Gerrard's ankle that, over the years, has allowed him to produce the most amazing passes with the outside of his right foot when his body weight is going in the opposite direction.

*Hard and quick passing, including hard and quick passing to the goalie if that's required.

*Pepe Reina's distribution, his first touch, his general ball skills.

*Henderson in central midfield.

*Shelvey's ability to get beyond the ball into useful space.

*Glen Johnson's power and his finesse.

*Gerrard causing panic in the other team's defence.

*Daniel Agger and the art of the early tackle.

*Daniel Agger and the pace with which he covers ground - both with and without the ball.

*Daniel Agger.

*The fact that our three goals all came from fantastic pressure on the ball high up the pitch. We're not Barcelona but Barca would have recognised what we did there.

*Nutmegs

*More nutmegs

*How many feckin' nutmegs does that man need.

*The first goal. Sheer power with the wrong foot.

*The third goal. A seven iron, head down until the follow through pulls it up.

*The second goal. Goal of the season. Who didn't gasp when that went in? (They're not human). Who didn't marvel when the replay from  behind the goal showed what happened? (They know nothing about football).

*Skrtel in for Carragher and the Cup is ours for the taking. 


   
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 10:00:16 pm by yorkykopite »
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline BobbyDavro

  • can't skate
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,628
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2012, 10:01:39 pm »
Suarez was excellent, but I was expecting a little bit more from Norwich if I'm honest...........and as others have said, bar moments of genius from Suarez we didn't actually create all that much.

I tend not to post in the round-table, leaving it to loftier folk whose understanding of the game, with no hint of sarcasm at all, is greater than mine.
But this can't go unchallenged.

Shelvey alone should have scored twice, and there were other good chances.
For me I've struggled all season to put my finger on the problem.
I've been through various stages:
- Carragher is the problem, when he plays we drop too deep and the space between defence/midfield/attack becomes to great to have any kind of coherent possession based play.
- Agger is the solution, without him and his ability to bring the ball out of defence, we still have the space problems as above
- Lucas being out is the problem, our screen who knows when to move upfield and when to drop back.
- Gerrard in the middle is the problem, he can't play that role, and in fact hasn't been able to for most of the last decade: 2003 he was the box-to-box man, but since the superman act came up against Benitez rightly seeing that as a problem in itself, not so much.
- Maxi not playing is the problem, his intelligent runs into the box, and ability to keep the ball and link up play is sorely missed.
- Henderson on the right
- Downing full stop
- Carroll's lack of intelligencee and our inability to use his attributes.

etc etc and so on.

I've danced across each, and when a game has re-inforced the validity of one, I've entrenched my position.
When a game negates one, I cling on to it as a one-off.

The reality is they've all got pros and cons.
No one thing trumps all.
There's a lot that we've done wrong this season, and a lot that we've repeated.
But if I had to single out one, it's the misuse of Gerrard.
He's phenominal at what he does.  He's not a phenominal centre-midfielder
His link up play with Torres was a sight to behold, and his withdrawn role has meant it hasn't been able to be replicated with Suarez.
Goals win games, Gerrard sees things quicker than most players when in the final third, and that's been our main issue.
The stattos will point to goal attempts, but I'm sticking to my belief that not enough of them were clear-cut.
We've probably got a season left of the force of nature, let's not waste it by keeping him in the centre....even if he still mistakenly believes that's where he should be.

Offline DutchRed

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,856
  • =
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2012, 10:09:59 pm »
Well, a wonderful set of finishes from Luis, and otherwise didn't see much of it, so will have to take the 5th and ask opinions. But questions: was Kenny right to play Gerrard and major players in a to be honest dead rubber?

I think he was. I don't think it's a good idea to have a cup final after two weeks of not playing. But I think Kenny got lucky that Norwich were really, really poor. They used to be agressive but their heads were on the beach last night. I don't think many of these faces will be in the firing line on Tuesday though.

And it's a major advantage we have on Chelsea. They have 24 hours less preparation and their game is really meaningful. And their team, with guys like Drogba, Terry, Lampard, is a bit older than ours too.
It's just sex and violence, melody and silence.

Offline BCCC

  • Or B square
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,898
  • Blessed are the Cheesemakers
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2012, 10:14:02 pm »
All I'll say is this, two minutes before the first goal I sent this text message: "How shite has Suarez been?" up to that point i've never seen him give the ball away as much.

The text exchange going on throughout the game finished with me sending this: "One of the best hattricks I've ever seen"

Funny old game, a solid performance interspersed with world class goals.
*****LFC Purveyors of fine football tradition since 1892*****

Offline Il Nina

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,879
  • I just can't get enough...
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2012, 11:21:13 pm »

I suppose it's one of those matches that we have drawn and lost so many of this season....

We dominated possession, but made our chances count....

Sums it up for me. Should have been a similar score line last week too (and in a few other games this season).
Sensational hatrick from Suarez; a fully fit and dangerous Gerrard and an over all solid performance. Hopefully keep it up for the rest of the season and more importantly for the big game next week.
“Liverpool was made for me and I was made for Liverpool.”

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2012, 11:38:32 pm »
I don't think we made our chances count as much as we should have. Suarez put away 3 half chances but really we probably had better opportunities in the game. Just off the top of my head:

- Gerrard's one that struck the Norwich players arm
- Shelvey's header
- Suarez's nutmeg and miss chip
- Shelvey's open goal face
- Downing's right foot shot
- Suarez's shot from Downing's cross

All these were on par or better chances than the ones Suarez got and we didn't put them in the back of the net so in that respect we weren't much better than usual. The difference was Suarez was sublime in his finishing off of the Norwich mistakes and perhaps that was because he had plenty of time.

Downing was next to useless on the right wing, didn't give us anything and I didn't think Bellamy offered all that much more. Though you can give Bellamy a pass because he's been good most of the season where as this was exactly what Downing has produced all season.

I thought the midfield did a good job controlling possession and Henderson in particular was neat. I really like him as a deep lying midfielder because he has a good work rate and a good eye for a pass. Just needs to get a bit stronger and a taste for tackling.

The back four had a good game but a lot of that was to do with how isolated the attack was. Like most here I still maintain that Carragher shouldn't be playing and that we should be getting games into Coates. Irrespect of how well he played it was an opportunity to develop an young promising player squandered. Better game by Enrique. Did well as usual defensively and was reasonable going forward. Definitely plays better with a right footer that cuts inside in front of him.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 11:40:44 pm by DanA »
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline kcbworth

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,157
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2012, 12:03:01 am »

Agger bossed the early stages. Looked a few classes above everyone. Was sensational. Couple of nervous moments in the second half, but such is the life of a CB I suppose.

Carra performed really poorly in the first half. I mean really badly. I haven't seen the chalkboards, but I reckon his passing percentage must have been about 30%. First 20 mins looked like Norwich were trying to play in behind him and they nearly succeeded. To his credit, he looked much better second half, in particular making a couple of important blocks, but still think we would have more control with a CB who didnt give the ball away every time it came near him.

Gerrard showed more energy than he has this season - perhaps the Derby aside. Made a massive difference having quality in CM, something we've missed pretty much all season. Is it perhaps the case that he needs to be rested more often?

Shelvey wasn't too bad... and I think the simple fact that he could go forward competently, but still track back when Gerrard was caught out of position, helped us massively. Definitely didn't boss the game and must be devastated that he missed those chances, but didn't look at all out of place. Feeling good about his future.

Henderson, Johnson, Enrique, Bellamy, Reina all did ok without setting the world alight.

Downing... let's be frank, was really poor. Kuyt sometimes gets a bad rap for breaking down play, but wow, Downing really does break down good moves. Must have been at least 5 opportunities for him to slide in Suarez or Gerrard, and I think in all but 4 of them, not only did he not see the pass, but he lost the ball. We could have easily put 3 or 4 more goals past Norwich if he had been playing better. Shame because he has had some better games in 2012, but looks like he is a down patch again. Don't think he should keep starting.

And Suarez... what can I say. Brilliant. Glad he got the 3rd to make up for his poor miss, but other than that, was an amazing clinical performance. Glad that he has made his mark on the 2012 highlight reels now. Let's hope this bodes well for greater things going forward.

All in all a good result, with some world class finishing, but still not good enough to consistently win. Can't complain too much though.

Offline lorenzo23

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,612
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2012, 12:07:49 am »
Haven't we been allowing Spearing the opportunity to grow into the role?

Haven't we been trying to combine Carroll and Suarez meaning no opportunity to give Gerrard a free role?

I like Henderson, I think he has a good future but he's had a few stinkers this season, twice subbed at half time, a bag of nerves against Cardiff, I dont think we'd have done him any favours giving him the responsibility to hold midfield if he was feeling nervous about it - I think we should give a bit more respect to those that work with him every day, he's in good form at the moment, perfect opportunity.

Its not a single game though is it. There have been calls for Carra to be moved on, phased out, whatever for three years. I'm not disputing his new contract was a travesty, it should have been a contract for a squad player however he's shown in more than a few games this season that he is still a decent player, not least because he's generally fit and available. Every mistake he makes is put down to his age. Was Johnson's last week because he's getting on, how about Skrtels whopper against Wigan kicking a blokes head off in the box, an age thing? People see what they want to see and its convenient to just blame Carra for most things. He's a scapegoat, if nothing else at least it keeps the criticism away from everybody else.

The coaching role may work because I think once the pressure is off him he could be a good mentor to the younger lads, less screeching and more educating. He seems to have done a good job with Kelly and Flanagan. One thing Owen said about him always stuck with me, that he's capable of playing anywhere because he understands the needs  of the position - as age creeps up, understanding and delivering are different things but he's played across the back four and centre mid , he is clearly a great reader of the game if he can communicate some of that then the youngsters could benefit a great deal.

The reason Henderson was having such shocking games was cause he was asked to play RM and you really are blaming Martin for that mistake at Wigan?? to defend Carra or maybe if you watch it, was Carra that failed to clear first with heading up in the air rather than away from the goal mate.

I can understand what your trying to say about Carra, that yes some go over the top but never the less he has been poor for least 2 years now over full course of a season.(that what it all boils down to not few good body on line performances)

In saying that he had a good game but as you point out Norwich was poor and funny part of it all was we finally had some luck.
Liverpool manager Rafael Benítez admitted after the match that the manner of his side's victory had stunned him and he stated: "My problem is that I don't have words to express the things that I feel at this moment"

Offline John C

  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,105
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2012, 12:18:42 am »
It was simply all about Luis Suarez with everybody else only really having to turn up and hold there positions. We were actually quite dull and inanimate ourselves for 20 mins, and we were particularly ineffective for that period whilst Shelvey was alongside Suarez.

So it wasn't a coincidence that his chance came from a pass from SG other players would find to awkward to even shape to complete never mind have the vision to execute. Suarez should be grateful as another player would have taken a couple of touches and his opportunity would have vanished.

Like many many others I admit to posting that and agreeing with the lads on TAW that perhaps Luis was a little greedy and not as clinical as we'd hoped. But that's football for you - a couple of swift kicks and your bollocks are knackered.

I wasn't going to be arsed what the result was but at least it gave the lads a decent kick about and made Kenny beam.

The rest of the team only had to be neat and tidy during one our easiest Saturdays for a while. I hope those that are likely to start conserved some energy and are focused on a far tougher game ahead. Meanwhile, enjoy dishing out a thrashing and the knowledge that we have two football genius's in our team.

Offline No666

  • Married to Macca.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,720
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2012, 08:31:34 am »
Quote
It leaves a lingering question in the mind, while Andy Carroll is not a "bad" player is he simply the "wrong" player? If Steven Gerrard is our most deadly option behind Suarez should we not be trying to replicate him when he's not there rather than returning to the old-school Carroll system?

This is the crucial question now. I admit that Carroll isn't 'my' sort of player so I'm doubtless prejudiced about this from the start but there are questions about our default formation and which positions we need to upgrade on for the summer which all have relevance to it. Is it also true that Gerrard gets the best out of Carroll so maybe this really does come to lack of strength in depth in midfield?

Offline Jellies

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,683
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2012, 08:51:09 am »
It speaks volumes that this was one of our worst games of the season, one of the games where we produced less chances and had a relatively low percentage of possession and a relatively low percentage of activity in their third. While we weren't poor at all, we simply took our chances much much better than we usually do. Imagine this game with two Suarez posts in the 24th and 26th instead of goal and if his wondergoal had just got over. Imagine then if Carragher's head wasn't in the way of their biggest chance.

If there's one thing this season has taught us, it is that possession, stats, shots and activity in their third doesn't even do half the difference. The difference in this game was that we took our chances. I think our former goalkeeper coach has been missed tremendously. What Suarez did right in his two first game and Downing did by his shot, was to place it where the Norwich keeper is weak. The goalkeeper coach usually studied the next opponent keeper and advised our strikers on where to put it. If this was a normal game, Downing and Suarez would've put it on the post or on the keeper. But not this time.

Ultimately football is a game where you have to score more goals than your opponent. We seem to have forgotten that at times this season, but I consider this season to have been a lesson in how we should play together. Kenny has now developed a beautiful and working machine, now we need it to score more goals.

Besides Suarez, I think Henderson had a good game. It's incredible to see the lad at the moment - you can literally see him develop from game to game. He seems eager to learn, enthusiastic and confident. With the talent and technique he has, both the mind and the body seems to be working in the same direction. I'm sure he'll be a very important player for us.

Offline Grobbelrevell

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,781
  • Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry & ignorance
    • The Grobbelramble
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2012, 09:22:04 am »
Has there been a better hattrick in terms of the individual strikes that make it up? That's a genuine question as well. There's the Rivaldo hattrick against Valencia in the Champions League which springs to mind, which is up there without a doubt and the occasion of that game and the level of the opposition arguably adds further weight, but there aren't many that will top Luis, that's for sure. Let's just hope that he takes this form - and accuracy - into the final next weekend because if he does, well we've got a real chance.
Twitter | Blog

TRADE COUNT: +19  /  SoS Member 6854

Offline Fuzion6

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,607
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2012, 09:22:11 am »
I might be in the minority but going forward I didn't think we were that great. Our chance creation was down significantly from other games in the season and this game reminded me most of Villa away - a very controlled and professional performance where we were ruthless for once. I don't think we played super well but we controlled the game which was important. I would still go 2 upfront for the FA Cup final.

Offline Hank Scorpio

  • is really a Virgo, three pinter. Royhendo's stalker.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,939
  • POOLCHECK HOMIE
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2012, 09:29:30 am »
This result though raises more questions than answers: The Andy Carroll Conundrum.
This is now the big issue.  What do we do with Andy Carroll?

As you have pointed out he is good at his job.  And that means he has a use.  But we are, for the most part, at our best when he is not in the side.

What I'd like to see happen is for the owners to be good owners and allow Dalglish to keep Carroll while adding extra quality up front.  This would give Dalglish/Carroll and the coaching staff time to integrate Carroll into our style of play.  It would take the pressure off Dalglish/Carroll.  It would allow us to have another option up top.

I don't want to see Carroll sold now.  We won't get anywhere near the money we paid for him and this last 15 months would've been a waste.  The lad has some use and if he continues to work hard, he will improve.  But he is currently a piece which doesn't quite fit.

If we can add, say, a Lavezzi and have him come off the wing in the manner that Bellamy did on the weekend then I can see this really working.  Add Lucas and Agger-Skrtel partnership then the defence can push up and also get Johnson into positions where he is most effective.

Offline subroc

  • cut at you with a clipper? Gas Face given, I beg to differ.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,292
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2012, 09:44:22 am »
It speaks volumes that this was one of our worst games of the season, one of the games where we produced less chances and had a relatively low percentage of possession and a relatively low percentage of activity in their third. While we weren't poor at all, we simply took our chances much much better than we usually do. Imagine this game with two Suarez posts in the 24th and 26th instead of goal and if his wondergoal had just got over. Imagine then if Carragher's head wasn't in the way of their biggest chance.

If there's one thing this season has taught us, it is that possession, stats, shots and activity in their third doesn't even do half the difference. The difference in this game was that we took our chances. I think our former goalkeeper coach has been missed tremendously. What Suarez did right in his two first game and Downing did by his shot, was to place it where the Norwich keeper is weak. The goalkeeper coach usually studied the next opponent keeper and advised our strikers on where to put it. If this was a normal game, Downing and Suarez would've put it on the post or on the keeper. But not this time.

Ultimately football is a game where you have to score more goals than your opponent. We seem to have forgotten that at times this season, but I consider this season to have been a lesson in how we should play together. Kenny has now developed a beautiful and working machine, now we need it to score more goals.

Besides Suarez, I think Henderson had a good game. It's incredible to see the lad at the moment - you can literally see him develop from game to game. He seems eager to learn, enthusiastic and confident. With the talent and technique he has, both the mind and the body seems to be working in the same direction. I'm sure he'll be a very important player for us.

I would argue instead that the stats are deceptive. Our travails this season have been down to poor movement and interpassing in the final third and the chances created have been not good enough to assist the finishing - and especially where we have lacked a truly clinical finisher this season, that has been fatal to our hopes to rise up the table. That is why our finishing has been execrable - because we have created poor chances. We only seem to control most games because the other side cedes possession to us and collapses into defensive positions - most of them because of less resources, and some because of injury concerns (Arsenal). The Norwich game was an exception in that Suarez basically created and scored all three goals (though Gerrard deserves an honourable mention for one of them) mostly all by himself.

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2012, 09:45:50 am »
Fair points raised above.

Suarez aside I don't think we were brilliant but it was the type of game we've been occasionally winning. We've tended to do better when  opposition play a high line and try to play football out of defence rather than hoof it. Chance creation and quality of chances was probably only on par for a game this season.

Against Chelsea I wouldn't mind seeing the same again minus Downing. One of the best things about that lineup was it presses well up front and that's how we beat Chelsea earlier in the year. Put Kuyt in there in place of Downing and I think it'd be more effective.
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline henry

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
  • My chicken is better than yours
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2012, 10:00:46 am »
you need the pressure the opponent to force them to make a mistake, so even if we scored all our goals from their mistakes we still worked hard for those events (mistake) to happen and took those chances.


It is not impossible, its just improbable

Offline No666

  • Married to Macca.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,720
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2012, 11:35:20 am »

What I'd like to see happen is for the owners to be good owners and allow Dalglish to keep Carroll while adding extra quality up front.  This would give Dalglish/Carroll and the coaching staff time to integrate Carroll into our style of play.  It would take the pressure off Dalglish/Carroll.  It would allow us to have another option up top.

I don't want to see Carroll sold now.  We won't get anywhere near the money we paid for him and this last 15 months would've been a waste.  The lad has some use and if he continues to work hard, he will improve.  But he is currently a piece which doesn't quite fit.

I think this is absolutely right.

Offline Vulmea

  • Almost saint-like.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,329
Re: round table Norwich 0-3 Suarez er Liverpool
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2012, 01:46:34 pm »
I would argue instead that the stats are deceptive. Our travails this season have been down to poor movement and interpassing in the final third and the chances created have been not good enough to assist the finishing - and especially where we have lacked a truly clinical finisher this season, that has been fatal to our hopes to rise up the table. That is why our finishing has been execrable - because we have created poor chances. We only seem to control most games because the other side cedes possession to us and collapses into defensive positions - most of them because of less resources, and some because of injury concerns (Arsenal). The Norwich game was an exception in that Suarez basically created and scored all three goals (though Gerrard deserves an honourable mention for one of them) mostly all by himself.

The stats say that not only do we create more chances than the vast majority of teams but that we create more clear cut chances than most other teams. Thats not long range shots or half chances or poor chances, its not somehow Liverpool's chances are different to everybody else's, there is after all some definition for a clear cut chance.  Maybe there could be an interpretation of that definiation that could cause anomolies over a game or two but across 35/36 games and 20 teams, its very unlikely to be significantly biased against Liverpool. Its not poor movement or interpassing, improve those things and it might help create even more chances, the basic stats say, measured against the other teams when presented with similar chances - we score significantly less. We simply miss more often than all bar Wigan. Our conversion rate stinks.

We've created far more clear cut chances than Newcastle and scored the same number of goals, we've created far more clear cut chances than Swansea and Blackburn and Fulham and scored less goals . It's nothing to do with the idea that somehow our chances are different to the other 19 teams in the league, they can't be unless there is an unlikely bias in the counting. It's our conversion rate which is rubbish. Its way below our norm and way below the league norm. It's a freak of a season made up of bad luck and bad finishing which have fed off each other.

Factor in how much cagier games are when we dont score, how our confidence and movement are diminished and the opposition encouraged and it becomes a viscious circle.  Score a few more and I think a disproportionate number would follow. Its the same small difference between teams coming to Anfield knowing they will get beat and thinking they will get a result.

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.