Author Topic: FAN UPDATE - Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas  (Read 223822 times)

Offline Sooty89!!!

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #80 on: February 6, 2017, 07:26:12 pm »
That was me but I think these are the "squatters" Graham mentioned  :-\

Will hit some of the flag lads and our atmosphere - but hard not to agree with it in a way!
If I'm honest I don't see the issue with it, as long as the person buying it through Friends and family is the person using the ticket. I understand the issue with touting and think everything possible should be done to stamp it out, but this isn't touting, they could implement something whereby any away tickets have to be used by the card holder or the card holders friends or family.
Also I think they would be playing a dangerous game if they tried to put a stop to anything like that, I reckon a high percentage of away regulars get there tickets through these means!
« Last Edit: February 6, 2017, 07:31:46 pm by Sooty89!!! »

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #81 on: February 6, 2017, 08:05:54 pm »
So do I, especially younger ones, but I guess it does means credits stay high if there are say two who share the tkts between them
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #82 on: February 6, 2017, 10:26:44 pm »
In the wider Ticketing industry,  paperless Ticketing is the touting deterrent most widely used at present,  but the club is already down that path with the requirement to have a fancied on entry.

Would it make any difference if the ticket was tied to a bank/credit card and you had to have that with you at entry? It hasn't stopped touting at music events but has significantly reduced it when used
The most effective ways(though also with drawbacks) to eliminate touting are either go full photo ID on the tickets like they do in Glastonbury (and boy is that expensive and time consuming )or better to use the NFC technology imbedded into smart phones and digitally deliver the ticket to the consumers phone shortly before they enter the event. Send it say for example one hour before and there is hardly the time to organise a resale and the lads outside of the kop are hardly gonna want to hand smart phones to people to use to scan themselves in using it...as long as the stewards are wise to scan and running.
Outside of the issues caused by not everyone having a smartphone the reason it's not used widely in the music industry is that the main players in ticketing in the U.K. have bought out the rights for huge percentages of venues box office sales for many years in the future and the competition they're in means they won't share their ticketing barcodes /technology with each other to protect their earnings from booking fees.
For a football club that owns and operates their own stadium a NFC solution is possible.
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #83 on: February 6, 2017, 10:37:09 pm »
The most effective ways(though also with drawbacks) to eliminate touting are either go full photo ID on the tickets like they do in Glastonbury (and boy is that expensive and time consuming )or better to use the NFC technology imbedded into smart phones and digitally deliver the ticket to the consumers phone shortly before they enter the event. Send it say for example one hour before and there is hardly the time to organise a resale and the lads outside of the kop are hardly gonna want to hand smart phones to people to use to scan themselves in using it...as long as the stewards are wise to scan and running.
Outside of the issues caused by not everyone having a smartphone the reason it's not used widely in the music industry is that the main players in ticketing in the U.K. have bought out the rights for huge percentages of venues box office sales for many years in the future and the competition they're in means they won't share their ticketing barcodes /technology with each other to protect their earnings from booking fees.
For a football club that owns and operates their own stadium a NFC solution is possible.


Touts would use cheap knock off phones and hand them out. Easier to replace than members cards.

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #84 on: February 6, 2017, 10:57:29 pm »

Touts would use cheap knock off phones and hand them out. Easier to replace than members cards.
I did say there was drawbacks!!

Cheap burner phones don't have NFC capabilities though so handing out expensive phones that do is a deterrent to touting
It's easier for the seller to keep track on who's bought the ticket and refuse to send them again if they got caught. It's also massively cheaper to send digitally

Not saying it's what will ever happen either but for large attendances NFC is the most cost effective anti tout deterrent.
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Offline Always_A_Red

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #85 on: February 6, 2017, 11:06:58 pm »
If I'm honest I don't see the issue with it, as long as the person buying it through Friends and family is the person using the ticket. I understand the issue with touting and think everything possible should be done to stamp it out, but this isn't touting, they could implement something whereby any away tickets have to be used by the card holder or the card holders friends or family.
Also I think they would be playing a dangerous game if they tried to put a stop to anything like that, I reckon a high percentage of away regulars get there tickets through these means!

You're assuming that everyone is like you and your mates and are genuinely using the friends and family function to true, honest effect. A tout will us this as an advantage to be able to buy multiple tickets at a time. How does the club know who are a genuine group of mates and who are actually touts with 10-20 cards who have just linked all the cards together? You can see the problem and its a pretty crap one for people like yourself and others I know. Think it will hit a lot hard. 

The only way to monitor it for aways is to do what UTD do where you individually have to pick up your own ticket from the ground or local location with ID. Whether or not the club want the hassle of that, I don't know.
« Last Edit: February 6, 2017, 11:11:31 pm by Always_A_Red »
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #86 on: February 6, 2017, 11:16:15 pm »
I did say there was drawbacks!!

Cheap burner phones don't have NFC capabilities though so handing out expensive phones that do is a deterrent to touting
It's easier for the seller to keep track on who's bought the ticket and refuse to send them again if they got caught. It's also massively cheaper to send digitally

Not saying it's what will ever happen either but for large attendances NFC is the most cost effective anti tout deterrent.

Not everyone has an NFC phone though.

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #87 on: February 6, 2017, 11:25:40 pm »
The most effective ways(though also with drawbacks) to eliminate touting are either go full photo ID on the tickets like they do in Glastonbury (and boy is that expensive and time consuming )or better to use the NFC technology imbedded into smart phones and digitally deliver the ticket to the consumers phone shortly before they enter the event. Send it say for example one hour before and there is hardly the time to organise a resale and the lads outside of the kop are hardly gonna want to hand smart phones to people to use to scan themselves in using it...as long as the stewards are wise to scan and running.
Outside of the issues caused by not everyone having a smartphone the reason it's not used widely in the music industry is that the main players in ticketing in the U.K. have bought out the rights for huge percentages of venues box office sales for many years in the future and the competition they're in means they won't share their ticketing barcodes /technology with each other to protect their earnings from booking fees.
For a football club that owns and operates their own stadium a NFC solution is possible.
good idea but (a)  I hardly ever get a signal near Anfield so that's me screwed and (b) the two 70odd year old blokes who sit next to me are screwed as well they can just about tune their radios in let alone use a smart phone

Offline andy07

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #88 on: February 7, 2017, 12:08:54 am »
All depends what the Club wants.  Does the Club design a system that suits the needs of the supporters (customers), or does the Club impose a system that meets its business plan?   Both of these options will be constrained by external control (eg increased disabled provision).  I expect that despite the rhetoric the system will be heavily weighted in favour of the business plan which will continue to maximise revenue from premium seats and maximise the throughput of different customers over a season.  This does not bode well for the traditional customer who turns up week in and week out but contributes little to the business goal.  The Club does however understand that the retention of a number of traditional customers is essential to maintain the image that sells the brand.   
« Last Edit: February 7, 2017, 12:53:53 am by andy07 »
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Offline kalle-anka

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #89 on: February 7, 2017, 07:12:26 am »
The thing is that both the club and city need a lot of tourists buying things in the shop, eating out, staying in hotels.
The club either have to turn a blind eye or offer more Thomas Cook/hospitality to insure that they and the city can keep benefiting as much as possible.

We all know how much FSG loves there income from the hospitality and turning fans to customers.

Offline noneoftheabove

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #90 on: February 7, 2017, 08:41:14 am »
Sometimes I wonder where so many tourists get their tickets from and dread to think how much they have paid. I overheard a tout offering two tickets to tourists right outside the back of the Centenary for £300 for two at a recent game. I was in upper Anfield v Chelsea and 90% of the people around me seemed to be tourists. Half and half scarves, bags of LFC shopping and even a couple on Facetime on their ipad during the game. Its not football as I know it.

Offline Rhi

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #91 on: February 7, 2017, 09:04:06 am »
The most effective ways(though also with drawbacks) to eliminate touting are either go full photo ID on the tickets like they do in Glastonbury (and boy is that expensive and time consuming )or better to use the NFC technology imbedded into smart phones and digitally deliver the ticket to the consumers phone shortly before they enter the event. Send it say for example one hour before and there is hardly the time to organise a resale and the lads outside of the kop are hardly gonna want to hand smart phones to people to use to scan themselves in using it...as long as the stewards are wise to scan and running.
Outside of the issues caused by not everyone having a smartphone the reason it's not used widely in the music industry is that the main players in ticketing in the U.K. have bought out the rights for huge percentages of venues box office sales for many years in the future and the competition they're in means they won't share their ticketing barcodes /technology with each other to protect their earnings from booking fees.
For a football club that owns and operates their own stadium a NFC solution is possible.

Photo-ticketing is expensive for Glastonbury because it's a one off though. Photo-fancards could be valid for years, so the cost becomes much less. I've had my fancard for about 10 years. It still says PTS on it ;D. So of course there'd be a sizeable one-off cost to make all STs and fancards photo-cards (maybe even 2 photos per card like in some black cabs :) for shared STs), but it solves a huge issue for years. Currently if you lose your card you pay for a replacement anyway, so there should be little on-going extra cost, other than perhaps needing to employ more stewards to do the checking.

Either way, I'm glad the club is looking at this, and I think that it's about time. Far too many people buy and sell for loyalty, let alone for touting.
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Offline Jake

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #92 on: February 7, 2017, 09:10:39 am »
You've got to show your ID to get into bars, casinos, planes, buy booze and fags etc. I don't see a single reason why the club shouldn't be able to ask for the same.

Here's hoping that lots of changes come and it doesn't affect the real fans too much. Every tout  that goes out of business is a victory to me.
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Offline Tommypig

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #93 on: February 7, 2017, 09:21:12 am »
My Two Pence worth
HOMES:
Introduce Photo ID season Tickets and Member cards.
If a season ticket holder can't go he can can transfer a game to a registered member - make a £5 admin charge should keep club happyextra income.

This ensures you can transfer up until the last minute and the transfer has gone to a registered member.

Members can also do the same but lose credit.

I think if someone dies or can longer go you should have the right to transfer season ticket to another member - I can't think of any thing worst than going to home matches on your own if your Dad stops going for ill health you should be able to continue with your son etc- I know it doesn't help the waiting list but ending up with a stadium of people sitting alone is horrible.

AWAYS:
Introduce an Away season tcket would need all clubs to have same ticketing system.
Then allow transfers as above but again you lose the credit if you transfer to another member - elimates paper tickets

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #94 on: February 7, 2017, 09:25:47 am »
You've got to show your ID to get into bars, casinos, planes, buy booze and fags etc. I don't see a single reason why the club shouldn't be able to ask for the same.

Because you have something like 400 people entering the ground per turnstile, the majority of whom arrive within 40 minutes of kick off.

Offline Barrowred

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #95 on: February 7, 2017, 09:36:43 am »
My Two Pence worth
HOMES:
Introduce Photo ID season Tickets and Member cards.
If a season ticket holder can't go he can can transfer a game to a registered member - make a £5 admin charge should keep club happyextra income.

This ensures you can transfer up until the last minute and the transfer has gone to a registered member.

Members can also do the same but lose credit.

I think if someone dies or can longer go you should have the right to transfer season ticket to another member - I can't think of any thing worst than going to home matches on your own if your Dad stops going for ill health you should be able to continue with your son etc- I know it doesn't help the waiting list but ending up with a stadium of people sitting alone is horrible.

AWAYS:
Introduce an Away season tcket would need all clubs to have same ticketing system.
Then allow transfers as above but again you lose the credit if you transfer to another member - elimates paper tickets

The bit in bold about members losing credit is why most of them either pass them on or as a last resort let the seat go empty. In the current system any loss of a credit could have a massive impact on the tickets you are eligible for the next season. Any rules for passing to family and friends for season ticket holders has to apply to members also.

Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #96 on: February 7, 2017, 10:01:11 am »
The bit in bold about members losing credit is why most of them either pass them on or as a last resort let the seat go empty. In the current system any loss of a credit could have a massive impact on the tickets you are eligible for the next season. Any rules for passing to family and friends for season ticket holders has to apply to members also.

It is unlikely to happen - members tickets aren't supposed to be half season tickets. They're supposed to be a pool of tickets for all members to have some access to. Retaining credit when your bum isn't on the seat isn't likely to happen.

Whether liked or not Season Tickets are treated differently and the drift of members' tickets as being perceived as 'owned' by the member is counter to trying to keep the pool of tickets as open for members as it can be.
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #97 on: February 7, 2017, 10:11:14 am »
If there isn't a process to return (or possibly transfer?) for members I can only see people paying for the seat and not attending, especially if they are around the perceived cut off for the first bulk sale the following season.

Offline SP

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #98 on: February 7, 2017, 10:17:34 am »
It is unlikely to happen - members tickets aren't supposed to be half season tickets. They're supposed to be a pool of tickets for all members to have some access to. Retaining credit when your bum isn't on the seat isn't likely to happen.

Whether liked or not Season Tickets are treated differently and the drift of members' tickets as being perceived as 'owned' by the member is counter to trying to keep the pool of tickets as open for members as it can be.

Technically, it would be possible to work out which seats are empty. It is a relatively simple problem to solve using a fixed camera. Would it be reasonable to strip the credit for a game from anyone whose seat is not used? Of course, you could do the same thing using information from the turnstiles, but that would not allow me to suggest removing credit from those leaving before the final whistle.

Seriously though, an unused ticket should get no credit.

That does open an interesting can of worms though. If members have to use the ticket or lose the credit, should the same apply to Season Tickets? How many matches should they miss before they lose priority to a final? Should season tickets have priority? There is a powerful argument that a Season Ticket Holder who goes to all the home games should be treated equally to a member who goes to all home games. As an ideal, those who go get priority, is not a bad starting point.

Of course, it is area that will upset some people. Any changes will benefit some, and penalise others - some people getting very upset is probably unavoidable. Even if FSG acted completely altruistically, some of those impacted will ascribe their misfortune to the venal motives of FSG. The club are kind of screwed whatever they do, but something needs to be done.

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #99 on: February 7, 2017, 10:29:30 am »
If there isn't a process to return (or possibly transfer?) for members I can only see people paying for the seat and not attending, especially if they are around the perceived cut off for the first bulk sale the following season.

The Club can monitor that the seat has not been used as the turnstile returns will show that the ticket/card hasn't been scanned - they might say if seat isn't used then you lose the credit with a little flexibility.

The ST and members tickets are becoming blurred when they're not supposed to be.

Members' tickets are supposed to circulate as much as possible.
« Last Edit: February 7, 2017, 10:31:45 am by Graham Smith »
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #100 on: February 7, 2017, 10:40:02 am »
The old PTS system was better than the current membership scheme, even though it was only adult tickets and in certain parts of the ground. Each game was a free for all but you had a decent chance.

Restricted numbers on the scheme meant that you had a decent chance of getting a ticket for most matches and if you failed there seemed to be more general sale tickets around as well.

There are far too many members chasing what seems like a smaller number of tickets these days. People buy just for the credit because if you didn't you'd struggle to get anything.

The club seem to have sold tens of thousands of extra memberships while reducing the number of tickets available for them to buy, seems to be a lot more hospitality around now.
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #101 on: February 7, 2017, 10:57:56 am »
The Club can monitor that the seat has not been used as the turnstile returns will show that the ticket/card hasn't been scanned - they might say if seat isn't used then you lose the credit with a little flexibility.

The ST and members tickets are becoming blurred when they're not supposed to be.

Members' tickets are supposed to circulate as much as possible.

I know the club has final say on what happens with the credit assigned to a member but not giving credits for a no show is opening a massive can of worms. You could be ill, have a family issue, called in to work etc.

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #102 on: February 7, 2017, 11:03:30 am »
I know the club has final say on what happens with the credit assigned to a member but not giving credits for a no show is opening a massive can of worms. You could be ill, have a family issue, called in to work etc.

Hence you might get some flexibility on keeping say one credit a season for a no show.

(Can I add again, this all devil's advocate stuff from me to tease out the debate - I have no axe to grind about members and I declare I am a STH).
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #103 on: February 7, 2017, 11:05:04 am »
I know the club has final say on what happens with the credit assigned to a member but not giving credits for a no show is opening a massive can of worms. You could be ill, have a family issue, called in to work etc.

Yes, but the alternative is that the club offers tacit support to people buying for credit and not showing. There will be individual cases that are unfortunate, but if you want to get the maximum number of tickets to fans to be used, I cannot see a practical alternative to penalising the credit of those that do not use their ticket.

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #104 on: February 7, 2017, 11:07:12 am »
The ST and members tickets are becoming blurred when they're not supposed to be.

Members' tickets are supposed to circulate as much as possible.

I think the way the tickets are sold doesn't help with that blurring. Members tickets are effectively sold as half season tickets due to the bulk sales. If you manage to get on at 8:15 on the day you can guarantee yourself a half season ticket in virtually the same seat.

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #105 on: February 7, 2017, 12:28:49 pm »
Sorry for the long post and self-indulgence but I think it is necessary to make a point.

I'm 34 and I've been fortunate to go to nearly every home game since I was 16 and most away games since I was about 20.

For homes, I started on the PTS with three mates. We became members when PTS was scrapped. Thanks to PTS membership and SOS lobbying, we had enough credits to guarantee us for every game. Then I was offered a season ticket loan, which wasn't worth my while as I'd lose the membership credits. But I persuaded the season ticket owner to transfer the ticket into my name, which used to be allowed.

For aways, we started getting tickets through the pools (remember them?). A couple of my mates sold pools tickets, applied for aways for each game, and normally got a couple.

Through going to the games, we met a guy who knew a bunch of fellas with 19 credits who'd decided to stop going. Me and three friends "took over" their league away credits about 12 years ago and have used them ever since. In the Hodgson era, we could have built up our own credits, but we didn't as we wanted to keep up the tickets that had full credits (we were going to every game after all). We didn't buy extras that we weren't going to use to sell on.

For cup games, I have league cup and euro aways on my old fan card as I'd started building these before I got my season ticket. And I have FA cup aways on my season ticket. I did explain the situation to the club and ask them to transfer my fancard credits to the season ticket but they refused.

So, I've got a season ticket without getting to the top of the waiting list (the club allowed this). I run a season ticket and a fancard (the club seems to support this by refusing a credit transfer). And I get my league aways using someone else's season ticket (I've always been aware that this is not allowed but it happens).

I expect the club would consider me to be someone who has abused and is abusing the system. But in my mind, I'm just someone who has used various available routes to get tickets to the match. I'm not a tout. I'm not a criminal. But it looks like getting to league aways is going to be struggle from now on.

Someone mentioned earlier that most of our away fanbase, particularly the 'youngsters', will be using someone else's season ticket. I would go further and say it probably applies to most people under 40; which is probably over half of the away end. In the long time I’ve been going, except with Hodgson, it has been difficult to build away credits. But I see the same faces at every match, most of them younger than me or not much older.  Unless they all built credits in those Hodgson years, I find it hard to believe that many of them have the required credits in their names.

I accept that something needs to be done but strictness on tickets being in the “owner’s” name is going to completely change the makeup of our away end.
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Offline Tommypig

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #106 on: February 7, 2017, 12:46:07 pm »
WIth regards to empty seats it would be nice to have the opportunity to donate your tickets to local schools / armed forces personnel / etc   if you can't go and want to keep the credit.

I appreciate the administrative nightmare but it would allow you to do good and in return you retain your credit.

It would only probably work in pairs as not the best scenario to have single school kids scattered around the stadium and singles go to local armed forces personnel.

I know this is controversial but the members closed shop credit buying probably needs to go everyone who is a member applies and gets a few games a season as the current scenario has helped make the members situation a secondary season ticket situation which adds to the shortage of the number of available tickets per game.

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #107 on: February 7, 2017, 01:10:39 pm »
I know this is controversial but the members closed shop credit buying probably needs to go everyone who is a member applies and gets a few games a season as the current scenario has helped make the members situation a secondary season ticket situation which adds to the shortage of the number of available tickets per game.

They brought the closed shop on themselves by making members buy tickets in bulk. They essentially made it easier for fewer people to buy tickets for more games. Did they honestly think people wouldn't buy as many as they could afford to ensure they were able to get them the following season? I wouldn't be too chuffed if suddenly they decided I wasn't allowed to go to 19 home games a season as they want more daytrippers in after I've worked hard building them up under their stupid system.
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #108 on: February 7, 2017, 01:13:44 pm »
They brought the closed shop on themselves by making members buy tickets in bulk. They essentially made it easier for fewer people to buy tickets for more games. Did they honestly think people wouldn't buy as many as they could afford to ensure they were able to get them the following season?

Plus the fact that you have to buy tickets for games when the dates can be changed long after you've bought them.
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #109 on: February 7, 2017, 01:36:16 pm »
Sorry for the long post and self-indulgence but I think it is necessary to make a point.

I'm 34 and I've been fortunate to go to nearly every home game since I was 16 and most away games since I was about 20.

For homes, I started on the PTS with three mates. We became members when PTS was scrapped. Thanks to PTS membership and SOS lobbying, we had enough credits to guarantee us for every game. Then I was offered a season ticket loan, which wasn't worth my while as I'd lose the membership credits. But I persuaded the season ticket owner to transfer the ticket into my name, which used to be allowed.

For aways, we started getting tickets through the pools (remember them?). A couple of my mates sold pools tickets, applied for aways for each game, and normally got a couple.

Through going to the games, we met a guy who knew a bunch of fellas with 19 credits who'd decided to stop going. Me and three friends "took over" their league away credits about 12 years ago and have used them ever since. In the Hodgson era, we could have built up our own credits, but we didn't as we wanted to keep up the tickets that had full credits (we were going to every game after all). We didn't buy extras that we weren't going to use to sell on.

For cup games, I have league cup and euro aways on my old fan card as I'd started building these before I got my season ticket. And I have FA cup aways on my season ticket. I did explain the situation to the club and ask them to transfer my fancard credits to the season ticket but they refused.

So, I've got a season ticket without getting to the top of the waiting list (the club allowed this). I run a season ticket and a fancard (the club seems to support this by refusing a credit transfer). And I get my league aways using someone else's season ticket (I've always been aware that this is not allowed but it happens).

I expect the club would consider me to be someone who has abused and is abusing the system. But in my mind, I'm just someone who has used various available routes to get tickets to the match. I'm not a tout. I'm not a criminal. But it looks like getting to league aways is going to be struggle from now on.

Someone mentioned earlier that most of our away fanbase, particularly the 'youngsters', will be using someone else's season ticket. I would go further and say it probably applies to most people under 40; which is probably over half of the away end. In the long time I’ve been going, except with Hodgson, it has been difficult to build away credits. But I see the same faces at every match, most of them younger than me or not much older.  Unless they all built credits in those Hodgson years, I find it hard to believe that many of them have the required credits in their names.

I accept that something needs to be done but strictness on tickets being in the “owner’s” name is going to completely change the makeup of our away end.

Lots of sympathy with this - on the aways what's the answer if they are trying to get the away credits in the right hands once and for all?

Maybe they do it on a case by case basis and you get a chance to tell your story?
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #110 on: February 7, 2017, 01:38:42 pm »
I know this is controversial but the members closed shop credit buying probably needs to go everyone who is a member applies and gets a few games a season as the current scenario has helped make the members situation a secondary season ticket situation which adds to the shortage of the number of available tickets per game.
Why should genuine loyalty not be rewarded though?

People in this apparent 'closed shop' have been going for years. Going game after game, year upon year, spending thousands. There's genuine supporters out there, not just credit hunters, so why should those genuine supporters suffer and be stuffed in sales with 70,000 odd others?

The club got rid of the PTS to bring this membership scheme in. it's over subscribed, there's not enough tickets available to the average match going fan, but any changes to members tickets shouldn't be at the expense of those who genuinely go to 18-19 home games a season.
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #111 on: February 7, 2017, 01:55:20 pm »
Wouldn't it be easier to just cap the amount of "Members" at 10,000 or so ala the old PTS, and whoever has this "Membership" gets first dibs on the tickets that as of now go into the bulk sales?

Bring it in and use loyalty to determine the 'sale' of Members cards for each season (and stagger them so those who have 19 homes are guaranteed, then say 15+ and 5+ sales) and if there are any tickets left over put them all on other loyalty or general sales without anyone having to pay a membership fee.

The club might take a small hit on the total amount of Membership fees although I sense that it's a drop in the ocean in terms of their overall revenue.

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #112 on: February 7, 2017, 02:00:00 pm »
Why should genuine loyalty not be rewarded though?

People in this apparent 'closed shop' have been going for years. Going game after game, year upon year, spending thousands. There's genuine supporters out there, not just credit hunters, so why should those genuine supporters suffer and be stuffed in sales with 70,000 odd others?

The club got rid of the PTS to bring this membership scheme in. it's over subscribed, there's not enough tickets available to the average match going fan, but any changes to members tickets shouldn't be at the expense of those who genuinely go to 18-19 home games a season.

Totally agree. I'm a member, was originally on a fancard and have missed 2 home league games  over the last 3 seasons, surely that level of attendance (and expense) deserves some level of loyalty back.

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #113 on: February 7, 2017, 02:04:03 pm »
Lots of sympathy with this - on the aways what's the answer if they are trying to get the away credits in the right hands once and for all?

Maybe they do it on a case by case basis and you get a chance to tell your story?

Possibly - but there would need to be a complete amnesty regarding the credit holding season ticket holders. Some of the stories of the club threatening and banning might make season ticket holders who have been passing on disinclined to admit their actions. Also, the clubs decision on any hearing would be highly subjective. There will often be little evidence and the ability of individuals to state their cases will vary wildly.

I do have a suggestion, which is a little complicated, but might work.

The current ticket buying system has the option to add notes. This notes section could be used to confirm who is using the ticket with ST / fancard number (the club did this for Augsburg last year). Club officials could then spot check that tickets match the name of the person, who must take photo ID in addition to ST / fancard (or, a more painful option, the person has to pick up on matchday). This would prevent touts as they wouldn't know who they intended to rip off when the tickets first go on sale.

This could be in place for one season, at the end of which the people who used the tickets get the credits -possibly having to provide stubs as an extra level of verification. Then the credits are linked to the right people.

While it would take a full season to work out - the situation is a mess and sorting out a mess does take time. I am sure there will be ways to beat the system (as with any system) and I'm sure there will be a hundred reasons people think this is a shit idea. Just my 2p.
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #114 on: February 7, 2017, 02:05:09 pm »
Sorry for the long post and self-indulgence but I think it is necessary to make a point.


I reckon you could probably prove most of that as well.  By the 'pools' I think you're on about when you could become an agent and sell scratch off tickets (or something similar) and the people doing this had an allocation (think it was development association).  They should have a record of you doing that.

If the away tickets have been linked as friends and family you'd have proof of buying them.  Sounds like the aways is going to take longer to sort than the homes but I reckon there should be some kind of 'amnesty' on away credits.  If the card owner agrees and you've got proof of purchase the Club should allow the credits to be transferred to your own name, if they want this to work.

We've probably only got about 1,000 away 'regulars', if they can sort the STH mess, surely they could sort this.
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #115 on: February 7, 2017, 02:09:57 pm »
Wouldn't it be easier to just cap the amount of "Members" at 10,000 or so ala the old PTS, and whoever has this "Membership" gets first dibs on the tickets that as of now go into the bulk sales?

Bring it in and use loyalty to determine the 'sale' of Members cards for each season (and stagger them so those who have 19 homes are guaranteed, then say 15+ and 5+ sales) and if there are any tickets left over put them all on other loyalty or general sales without anyone having to pay a membership fee.

The club might take a small hit on the total amount of Membership fees although I sense that it's a drop in the ocean in terms of their overall revenue.

But that would be another self-perpetuating closed shop which locks out young blood. No one new gets on the ladder. No one gives up once they are in, as once they are out, they could not get back in.

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #116 on: February 7, 2017, 02:11:47 pm »
Sorry for the long post and self-indulgence but I think it is necessary to make a point.

I'm 34 and I've been fortunate to go to nearly every home game since I was 16 and most away games since I was about 20.

For homes, I started on the PTS with three mates. We became members when PTS was scrapped. Thanks to PTS membership and SOS lobbying, we had enough credits to guarantee us for every game. Then I was offered a season ticket loan, which wasn't worth my while as I'd lose the membership credits. But I persuaded the season ticket owner to transfer the ticket into my name, which used to be allowed.

For aways, we started getting tickets through the pools (remember them?). A couple of my mates sold pools tickets, applied for aways for each game, and normally got a couple.

Through going to the games, we met a guy who knew a bunch of fellas with 19 credits who'd decided to stop going. Me and three friends "took over" their league away credits about 12 years ago and have used them ever since. In the Hodgson era, we could have built up our own credits, but we didn't as we wanted to keep up the tickets that had full credits (we were going to every game after all). We didn't buy extras that we weren't going to use to sell on.

For cup games, I have league cup and euro aways on my old fan card as I'd started building these before I got my season ticket. And I have FA cup aways on my season ticket. I did explain the situation to the club and ask them to transfer my fancard credits to the season ticket but they refused.

So, I've got a season ticket without getting to the top of the waiting list (the club allowed this). I run a season ticket and a fancard (the club seems to support this by refusing a credit transfer). And I get my league aways using someone else's season ticket (I've always been aware that this is not allowed but it happens).

I expect the club would consider me to be someone who has abused and is abusing the system. But in my mind, I'm just someone who has used various available routes to get tickets to the match. I'm not a tout. I'm not a criminal. But it looks like getting to league aways is going to be struggle from now on.

Someone mentioned earlier that most of our away fanbase, particularly the 'youngsters', will be using someone else's season ticket. I would go further and say it probably applies to most people under 40; which is probably over half of the away end. In the long time I’ve been going, except with Hodgson, it has been difficult to build away credits. But I see the same faces at every match, most of them younger than me or not much older.  Unless they all built credits in those Hodgson years, I find it hard to believe that many of them have the required credits in their names.

I accept that something needs to be done but strictness on tickets being in the “owner’s” name is going to completely change the makeup of our away end.
Completely agree with this, great post! I think people should be careful what they wish for, people are assuming the club are doing this to enable more genuine fans to get to the match. The club obviously want the type of fans that touts are selling to(people that spend in the club shop etc) so they would be spiteing themselves if they took all these tickets back of touts and credit hunters and gave them to normal match going fans! My guess is a high proportion of any tickets they claw back will go to hospitality and partners, keeping the type of supporter they want in the ground! They could take away tickets out of the hands of so called credit hunters and give them to corporate or sponsors! Also if the club do look at away tickets there 1st port of call should be the hospitality STH as i would put my mortgage on half of them that get aways don't go, they just pass them on!

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #117 on: February 7, 2017, 02:34:32 pm »
Completely agree with this, great post! I think people should be careful what they wish for, people are assuming the club are doing this to enable more genuine fans to get to the match. The club obviously want the type of fans that touts are selling to(people that spend in the club shop etc) so they would be spiteing themselves if they took all these tickets back of touts and credit hunters and gave them to normal match going fans! My guess is a high proportion of any tickets they claw back will go to hospitality and partners, keeping the type of supporter they want in the ground! They could take away tickets out of the hands of so called credit hunters and give them to corporate or sponsors! Also if the club do look at away tickets there 1st port of call should be the hospitality STH as i would put my mortgage on half of them that get aways don't go, they just pass them on!

Massively wrong most of this.

The Club get nothing out of away tickets and have to sell them on behalf of the away team at LFC's cost.

There is to be some transparency coming about where tickets go and the Cub wouldn't be able to siphon off to 'corporate' at any great numbers.

The big focus on aways is targeting the touts, addressing the sincere squatters but making it a little easier to get on the ladder.
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #118 on: February 7, 2017, 02:38:29 pm »
This could be in place for one season, at the end of which the people who used the tickets get the credits -possibly having to provide stubs as an extra level of verification. Then the credits are linked to the right people.

Maybe a minor issue but I know people who can't afford a membership or don't go enough to buy one but who occasionally go on a friends' ticket if they can't make it. In cases like this obviously there is no one to pass the credit on to.
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Offline Barry Banana

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #119 on: February 7, 2017, 02:52:54 pm »
Massively wrong most of this.

The Club get nothing out of away tickets and have to sell them on behalf of the away team at LFC's cost.

There is to be some transparency coming about where tickets go and the Cub wouldn't be able to siphon off to 'corporate' at any great numbers.

The big focus on aways is targeting the touts, addressing the sincere squatters but making it a little easier to get on the ladder.

Hospitality / corporate season ticket holders are able to apply for away tickets for every game. A friend of a friend bought two main stand hospitality season tickets this year. He's got two tickets for every away game bar one, which he's passed on to my friend. Face value, of course. But the club do sell away tickets to hospitality season ticket holders (without credits).

If there is going to be transparency on this - it will be interesting to see how many go into this pot. It will also be interesting to see if the club applies the same stringent rules to hospitality members. They've often spent fortunes on hospitality tickets to entertain and impress clients, so it wouldn't make sense that passing on to clients is forbidden.
« Last Edit: February 7, 2017, 03:26:52 pm by Barry Banana »
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