Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I liked Emre a lot. He left coz of who we were signing.  As good a player he is, he obviously didnt fancy his chances against Fab so proving he wasnt good enough!

Emre never improved significantly through out his time here. He's been the same player this whole time, majorly inconsistent. Plays well for 3 games, then follows it up with 3 bad ones. has a terrible knack of not tracking his runners. Talented player but not consistent enough and doesn't stand out in any area.

[Shaved Crossbar]

Emre never improved significantly through out his time here. He's been the same player this whole time, majorly inconsistent. Plays well for 3 games, then follows it up with 3 bad ones. has a terrible knack of not tracking his runners. Talented player but not consistent enough and doesn't stand out in any area.

Also subpar physically, he was slow and heavy footed and didn’t have the quickness or intensity far too often. Like you say, nice range of skills though

[xbugawugax]

he sure can hit a bicycle kick though. Thought he was pretty ok for a squad player at least. Could play as a no 6 or no 8 in our midfield i think just like he did when he was here.

how is he doing at Juve? at least he have a Serie A medal to show for it.

[Sangria]

he sure can hit a bicycle kick though. Thought he was pretty ok for a squad player at least. Could play as a no 6 or no 8 in our midfield i think just like he did when he was here.

how is he doing at Juve? at least he have a Serie A medal to show for it.

In the recent Juve-Lazio games, Juve fans called him the worst former Liverpool midfielder on show.

[AmanShah21]

Also subpar physically, he was slow and heavy footed and didn’t have the quickness or intensity far too often. Like you say, nice range of skills though

I dont think he was subpar physically at all. He had very good pace and intensity and was strong on the ball. I think he was one of our fastest players. Case in point -

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/10-fastest-players-premier-league-11147469

It was his concentration that was a problem. He could be slow to react and sometimes just basically ball watching instead of trying to recover the ball. That's something that you cannot coach. It needs to be done by the individual and he still hasn't really fixed that. He has all the attributes to be a world beater but his mentality is whats lacking.

[AmanShah21]

Did he know we were signing Fabhino when he refused to sign a new contract and started talking to Juve? Perhaps - players may have a lot more knowledge about club plans than we think, and that might be one of the sources for leaks.

But the impression I got was that Can just decided to leave for more money.

I too liked him a lot; he had great games and not so great games, but scored some super goals. No hard feelings, we ended up improving, and you must wonder whether players who chose to leave may now have some regrets.

This.

I think the deal was done early in the year and I still dont understand his thinking completely. Juve probably offered him a whole lot more than he deserved and he thought he'd get a guaranteed serie a medal every year at the minimum.

I liked him but he could be frustrating. So much talent and versatility but he could completely switch off at times in games and thats what made him so frustrating. I am glad we moved him on because in the current midfield he really wouldn't deserve many minutes.

[LFCTikiTaka]

I liked Emre a lot. He left coz of who we were signing.  As good a player he is, he obviously didnt fancy his chances against Fab so proving he wasnt good enough!

He was a Juventus fan growing up, his first football coach Toni Magliarisi was mad on Juve and passed it onto him. He was always going to want to play there at some point - https://www.vecchiasignora.com/topic/328289-parla-toni-magliarisi-il-primo-allenatore-di-emre-can/

That and the huge signing on bonus made it the perfect move for Emre. It has backfired massively for him unfortunately, for us we managed to find a tremendous upgrade.

[۩ Imperator ۩]

Feliz Naby Lad
Feliz Naby Lad
Feliz Naby Lad, Hendo, Fabinho and Gini Lad
I want Shaqiri, Lallana, Milner,
Oxlade-Chamberlain, Minamino,
I want nine fucking class midfielders
Playing for my club...

Feliz Naby Lad...

[jepovic]

Liverpool is being rightly lauded for their dominance, but I don't see much analysis thereof. Klopp's smile is perhaps too bright- experts underestimate his skills.

One detail that I find fascinating is how we can win so many games with such a defensively balanced midfield. It goes against common sense, mine as well, to not have any midfielder with a major contribution in goals and assists. But Klopp has taken the full back role to a new level, where the FBs are more attacking than all of the midfielders. It's basically a 2-3-5 formation in attack. It works defensively because our 8s cover so much ground.

Another detail that rejectes common sense is that we score lots of goals on crosses without a single big man striker. Our attackers don't win aerials, they avoid them with pace and clever movement.

[Sangria]

Liverpool is being rightly lauded for their dominance, but I don't see much analysis thereof. Klopp's smile is perhaps too bright- experts underestimate his skills.

One detail that I find fascinating is how we can win so many games with such a defensively balanced midfield. It goes against common sense, mine as well, to not have any midfielder with a major contribution in goals and assists. But Klopp has taken the full back role to a new level, where the FBs are more attacking than all of the midfielders. It's basically a 2-3-5 formation in attack. It works defensively because our 8s cover so much ground.

Another detail that rejectes common sense is that we score lots of goals on crosses without a single big man striker. Our attackers don't win aerials, they avoid them with pace and clever movement.

Both FBs aim their crosses at the troublesome area between the defenders and goalkeeper. See the 2nd goal against Barcelona, where Trent gets a lucky deflection to Wijnaldum. If you look at where Trent was aiming, if the ball hadn't been deflected then it would have gone into that channel/alley between the defenders/Mane and the goalkeeper. If you were a Yorkshireman, you might even call that area a corridor of uncertainty, where a defender doesn't know whether to play or how to play, as an unlucky deflection may well be as effective as a striker's finish.

I still think that our plan A is to have a progressive CM like most orthodox midfields, except our plan A components have been injured so we've had to rely solely on plan B. With Keita returning, we will resume plan A.

Thinking about it, how do we identify tactically adept CMs such as Wijnaldum? He's probably been the greatest gem in Klopp's midfield, able to be shifted to any of the subtly different roles and doing each with complete reliability. Henderson and this season's Lallana are the same type with a slight emphasis in one area or another.

[Perham]

Remember when people said Gini and Hendo weren't good enough to win trophies? They were the best two players on the pitch imo

[El Lobo]

Remember when people said Gini and Hendo weren't good enough to win trophies? They were the best two players on the pitch imo

Annoyingly now Fabinho is back we could see the midfield of doom. But it’s January so you never know if we can chuck £300 million at Chelsea for their wet dream midfield.

[Suareznumber7]

Gini Wijnaldum is so fucking good

[na fir dearg]

Gini Wijnaldum is so fucking good

A masterclass performance from him, he deserved that goal

[Bjornar]

Annoyingly now Fabinho is back we could see the midfield of doom.

Might see us fall even further behind Man City in the xG table.

[duvva 💅]

It’s a little way off, but replacing what Gini and Henderson give us when the time comes will be very difficult. They’re both quite unique to us.
Not sure many would have thought like that a while back when neither were in a lot of supporters midfield 3

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I think they have still 3 good seasons in their legs

[PoetryInMotion]

It’s a little way off, but replacing what Gini and Henderson give us when the time comes will be very difficult. They’re both quite unique to us.
Not sure many would have thought like that a while back when neither were in a lot of supporters midfield 3

There was a reason why Klopp kept picking these two regularly and in big games for years now, yet apparently those who frowned at Klopp's midfield selections all this time thought they knew more than Klopp with their endless criticisms even when we won games with them. If this is not a lesson to those naysayers about Klopp's lineups and about the quality of our midfielders, then it's their ego and nothing else. It was their ego when they made those claims originally. Not based on logic or trust in Klopp.

[Knight]

A Klopp midfield with Gini and Henderson works brilliantly when the balance is right, that is when a progressive passer, dribbler, runner is in there. Ox gives that. The problem with our midfield, on the few occasions in 2+ years when there has been a problem, hasn’t been individuals so much as balance. Gini, Henderson and Ox (particularly Gini and Henderson) we’re brilliant yesterday.

[PoetryInMotion]

A Klopp midfield with Gini and Henderson works brilliantly when the balance is right, that is when a progressive passer, dribbler, runner is in there. Ox gives that. The problem with our midfield, on the few occasions in 2+ years when there has been a problem, hasn’t been individuals so much as balance. Gini, Henderson and Ox (particularly Gini and Henderson) we’re brilliant yesterday.

Yes, we won thr Champions League and got to 97 points or made steady progress every year since Klopp without any balance in midfield. Ox plays one game and he gave us that balance we were missing all these years. Yep. This is the kind of analysis that can get published.

[jepovic]

Gini and Henderson are much more active in possession now than, say, a year ago. On a bad day, particularily against a low block like we faced yesterday, they would just recycle the ball without actually creating problems for the opponents, racking up nice passing stats without any end product. I often called Gini frustrating, since he could do much more. But yesterday, Gini was showing everything he can do. Taking players on, overloading in United's box, etc. He was just brilliant. Henderson has a bit more defensive role now when he's playing the 6, but he's doing his share.

I think this improvement is due to confidence and form, not tactics or balance. And I think Fabinho will move Henderson back up a notch, and it will work just fine. I like Ox, but Henderson and Gini are better players IMO.

[Knight]

Yes, we won thr Champions League and got to 97 points or made steady progress every year since Klopp without any balance in midfield. Ox plays one game and he gave us that balance we were missing all these years. Yep. This is the kind of analysis that can get published.

And this is the kind of deliberately poor reading comprehension that can promote healthy discussion.

[Magix]

Gini and Henderson are much more active in possession now than, say, a year ago. On a bad day, particularily against a low block like we faced yesterday, they would just recycle the ball without actually creating problems for the opponents, racking up nice passing stats without any end product. I often called Gini frustrating, since he could do much more. But yesterday, Gini was showing everything he can do. Taking players on, overloading in United's box, etc. He was just brilliant. Henderson has a bit more defensive role now when he's playing the 6, but he's doing his share.

I think this improvement is due to confidence and form, not tactics or balance. And I think Fabinho will move Henderson back up a notch, and it will work just fine. I like Ox, but Henderson and Gini are better players IMO.

I think tactically we've gone up a notch too. Before, we could get stilted in the middle but the long ball from the back as an incisive option means we can shift the ball from side to side more purposefully, probing for passing opportunities, freeing up the fullbacks.

[Jookie]

In the next few weeks we could end up with a fit Fabinho, Keita and Milner complementing Henderson, Wijnaldum, AOC and Lallana.

Be really interesting what Klopp does with the midfield, if everyone stays fit. Maybe it'll be horses for courses but that's tended to have more consistency with who he selects as the No.6. 2 months ago I don't think there's any conversation about who our best player is at the No.6 position. However, Henderson's form over the last few months does pose a question about whether we keep him as the No.6 for the next few months.

In front of that No.6 position I think we've seen AOC take some strides forward recently and we've see Lallana really show his worth as senior pro off the bench. Wijnaldum has been brilliant this season too.. Milner will always have a place on the bench due to his versatility and Keita, despite injuries, has shown his potential when available. The bar has been set at a very high level if you want to get regular starts in this Liverpool midfield. Feel like that bar is being raised month by month. You've also got players like Curtis Jones knocking at the door. What a player to have as your 8th midfield option in the squad!

Also the option to move to 4-2-3-1 and get more game time for Shaqiri, Origi and Minamino. This will also affect midfield choices. I was convinced that 4-2-3-1 might be a formation we'd see more often. I wonder if Shaqiri's injuries have stopped this being a more regular formation we play.

Really interesting to see how this shapes up over the next few months.

[PoetryInMotion]

And this is the kind of deliberately poor reading comprehension that can promote healthy discussion.

Go on then, explain what else did you mean when you were talking about balance that we now have, but did in someway lack before, even though we were close to success in all fronts in the way of breaking club records last season (and all-time records this season)?

Go on, explain it all away as part of a healthy discussion that you are so interested in.

It doesn't make sense to say that we've always had a progressive passer/dribbler in midfield when we've done well. Not at all. We had Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner (Milner is probably a bit more progressive, but is in no way a playmaker, he drifted wide and sent in crosses for his assists more than progressing through the middle) in the 2017-18 CL campaign all the way to the finals, and then we had Fabinho, Hendo and Wijnaldum predominantly in the league and CL (raking 97 points and winning the CL) and the three of them starred in the campaign. Calling this trio to be lacking in balance is not only disrespectful, but plain wrong and only circulates narratives about what has always been a successful midfield trio.

Even if we aren't really bothered, these are the narratives on which opposition fans thrive on.

[PoetryInMotion]

In the next few weeks we could end up with a fit Fabinho, Keita and Milner complementing Henderson, Wijnaldum, AOC and Lallana.

Be really interesting what Klopp does with the midfield, if everyone stays fit. Maybe it'll be horses for courses but that's tended to have more consistency with who he selects as the No.6. 2 months ago I don't think there's any conversation about who our best player is at the No.6 position. However, Henderson's form over the last few months does pose a question about whether we keep him as the No.6 for the next few months.

In front of that No.6 position I think we've seen AOC take some strides forward recently and we've see Lallana really show his worth as senior pro off the bench. Wijnaldum has been brilliant this season too.. Milner will always have a place on the bench due to his versatility and Keita, despite injuries, has shown his potential when available. The bar has been set at a very high level if you want to get regular starts in this Liverpool midfield. Feel like that bar is being raised month by month. You've also got players like Curtis Jones knocking at the door. What a player to have as your 8th midfield option in the squad!

Also the option to move to 4-2-3-1 and get more game time for Shaqiri, Origi and Minamino. This will also affect midfield choices. I was convinced that 4-2-3-1 might be a formation we'd see more often. I wonder if Shaqiri's injuries have stopped this being a more regular formation we play.

Really interesting to see how this shapes up over the next few months.

Yes, with players coming back from injury, we are fully covered in all areas of the pitch, even in terms of options.

The amount and quality of midfield players allows us to even use players like Shaqiri and Minamino in attack instead of needing to use them in midfield. Plenty of options and it is interesting as you say.

[Magix]

In the next few weeks we could end up with a fit Fabinho, Keita and Milner complementing Henderson, Wijnaldum, AOC and Lallana.

Be really interesting what Klopp does with the midfield, if everyone stays fit. Maybe it'll be horses for courses but that's tended to have more consistency with who he selects as the No.6. 2 months ago I don't think there's any conversation about who our best player is at the No.6 position. However, Henderson's form over the last few months does pose a question about whether we keep him as the No.6 for the next few months.

In front of that No.6 position I think we've seen AOC take some strides forward recently and we've see Lallana really show his worth as senior pro off the bench. Wijnaldum has been brilliant this season too.. Milner will always have a place on the bench due to his versatility and Keita, despite injuries, has shown his potential when available. The bar has been set at a very high level if you want to get regular starts in this Liverpool midfield. Feel like that bar is being raised month by month. You've also got players like Curtis Jones knocking at the door. What a player to have as your 8th midfield option in the squad!

Also the option to move to 4-2-3-1 and get more game time for Shaqiri, Origi and Minamino. This will also affect midfield choices. I was convinced that 4-2-3-1 might be a formation we'd see more often. I wonder if Shaqiri's injuries have stopped this being a more regular formation we play.

Really interesting to see how this shapes up over the next few months.

4-2-3-1 seems to be on the cards with the core of our 4-3-3 midfielders (namely Henderson and Gini, and Milner and Lallana) getting on in the thirties and the names we've been linked with (Havertz, Werner).

[Eeyore]

There was a reason why Klopp kept picking these two regularly and in big games for years now, yet apparently those who frowned at Klopp's midfield selections all this time thought they knew more than Klopp with their endless criticisms even when we won games with them. If this is not a lesson to those naysayers about Klopp's lineups and about the quality of our midfielders, then it's their ego and nothing else. It was their ego when they made those claims originally. Not based on logic or trust in Klopp.

Personally I have never had a problem with Hendo and Gini as two of the three as long as the third was initially Coutinho or Lallana. Klopp then brought in Ox, Keita and Shaqiri to add creativity to a Hendo+Gini +1 midfield.

The problem for me is a Hendo + Gini +(Milner/Fabinho) midfield that means we rely far too much on Trent and Bobby to create.

[PoetryInMotion]

Personally I have never had a problem with Hendo and Gini as two of the three as long as the third was initially Coutinho or Lallana. Klopp then brought in Ox, Keita and Shaqiri to add creativity to a Hendo+Gini +1 midfield.

The problem for me is a Hendo + Gini +(Milner/Fabinho) midfield that means we rely far too much on Trent and Bobby to create.

But it has never been an issue has it been? The midfield does the job what Klopp wants, while the creative players create - it's as simple as that. Some of you seem to have missed one of Klopp's post match interviews for sure, and aren't really reading into what he wants from his midfield. I'd say that's the reason why this narrative that somehow it is an issue, keeps floating around.

He clearly said that his midfield does what he wants from them when asked if his midfield could be more creative (or on those lines). They lay the platform for rest of the team to work on. If they plug the holes, circulate the ball and then give the license for Trent/Robbo/Bobby to be creative and then they all fail, it's on them, not on the midfield. Thankfully, that's almost never happened, if one player isn't on form, the other has always stepped up, we've shown what a 'TEAM' we're.

As for Coutinho, he has never really worked much in midfield, has he? Klopp himself preferred to play him attack more than in the midfield, it's pretty clear what Klopp's priorities are in terms of what he wants from his midfield. I'm sure that the first thing he wants from his midfield, even the most attacking third midfielder, is not creativity. The first thing he wants from all of them is work-rate and tactical nous, the next thing is ball retention and creativity and goals are probably the last thing he wants from them.

In general, especially some opposition fans think our midfield is just about running around/being work horses. They can't be more wrong. These are far from headless chickens. The amount of tactical brilliance the three bring into the fold (Fabinho, Hendo, and Gini) is extremely under-rated, these are some of the smartest midfielders around. Ox is still not in that level in terms of game intelligence. Keita could get there, if he remains fit.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Personally I have never had a problem with Hendo and Gini as two of the three as long as the third was initially Coutinho or Lallana. Klopp then brought in Ox, Keita and Shaqiri to add creativity to a Hendo+Gini +1 midfield.

The problem for me is a Hendo + Gini +(Milner/Fabinho) midfield that means we rely far too much on Trent and Bobby to create.

The fact our assist-machine full backs push up mean the impetus isn't on the midfield to create as much as dominate that space, cover for runs on the flanks and get quick balls up to the front three where possible. And they do that very well.

[na fir dearg]

I think Fabinho v Henderson for the 6 position is interesting now - it may depend on the opposition as to who plays there, I still think Fabinho has the better defensive instincts so that may swing it in say the latter stages of the CL - but equally would not surprise me if Klopp leaves Henderson there and with the amount of clean sheets recently who could argue

[Knight]

Go on then, explain what else did you mean when you were talking about balance that we now have, but did in someway lack before, even though we were close to success in all fronts in the way of breaking club records last season (and all-time records this season)?

Go on, explain it all away as part of a healthy discussion that you are so interested in.

It doesn't make sense to say that we've always had a progressive passer/dribbler in midfield when we've done well. Not at all. We had Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner (Milner is probably a bit more progressive, but is in no way a playmaker, he drifted wide and sent in crosses for his assists more than progressing through the middle) in the 2017-18 CL campaign all the way to the finals, and then we had Fabinho, Hendo and Wijnaldum predominantly in the league and CL (raking 97 points and winning the CL) and the three of them starred in the campaign. Calling this trio to be lacking in balance is not only disrespectful, but plain wrong and only circulates narratives about what has always been a successful midfield trio.

Even if we aren't really bothered, these are the narratives on which opposition fans thrive on.

Read the post again. I explicitly say that there has only been a problem 'a few times'. We have been brilliant without a player like Lallana or Keita or Ox, we will continue to be brilliant. Yes I think the balance is better with a 'progressive' player in the middle, and that ideally it would be a Lallana, Keita or Ox. Milner is one too but like you say, he tends to drift wide, out of the opposition shape, which is less helpful in some ways. I don't think the midfield does work brilliantly without that player, but neither does it need too and neither has it a been a big problem.

I also think that Klopp thinks a 'progressive' player is normally preferable. There's a reason he's signed (and played, which I'll get too) the players he has. However, I don't think that the balance being less than ideal has often been an actual problem. For the vast, vast majority of the time we've made it work. In fact it's only ever been a problem a 'few times'. You jumped on my post for its extreme negativity when in reality it was nothing of the sort. Perhaps you read 'lack of balance' and thought it was bang out of order, but if you'd read a little slower and more carefully do you really think you'd have been as annoyed as you were?

As for your latest post...

It doesn't make sense to say that we've always had a progressive passer/dribbler in midfield when we've done well.

I completely agree, if I gave the impression that I thought we've only ever done well when we've had a 'progressive' 8 in the team, I'm sorry. But I wasn't aware I had. 

We had Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner (Milner is probably a bit more progressive, but is in no way a playmaker, he drifted wide and sent in crosses for his assists more than progressing through the middle) in the 2017-18 CL campaign all the way to the finals

This is just wrong given Ox's role in the 17/18 CL campaign. In the 17/18 season you whitewash Ox's starts in the competition out of your history, when he was integral to beating City and started against Roma before sadly getting injured. I think it's worth bearing in mind that Lallana, Ox or Keita has been first choice for Klopp A LOT in his time here.

and then we had Fabinho, Hendo and Wijnaldum predominantly in the league and CL (raking 97 points and winning the CL) and the three of them starred in the campaign.

It'd be interesting to see the most common midfield 3 combinations from last season, I imagine those 3 are up there. Probably/ definitely? the most common. However, it's also worth bearing in mind that Keita started away at Barcelona and Ox and Lallana were basically injured all season. Klopp's options were down and he chose from what he had. And what he had were absolutely fantastic. Henderson when he moved to 8 and dragged us to one or two victories... brilliant stuff. All of them in the CL final, suffocating Spurs... e.t.c.

Calling this trio to be lacking in balance is not only disrespectful, but plain wrong and only circulates narratives about what has always been a successful midfield trio.

Perhaps this just comes down to a different reading of the word balance. I mean it in terms of the breadth of skillset across the midfield 3. The midfield needs certain elements for balance, and when certain elements are missing, it becomes a little uneven. That doesn't really matter most of the time, because they still offer so much, and it's compensated for elsewhere. But it is not disrespectful to Henderson to say that he is less press resistant than Fabinho or that Gini is less progressive with his passing than Keita or that Milner is worse at receiving the ball in the half space than Ox. Just like it wouldn't be disrespectful to say that a midfield of Lallana, Keita, Ox would lack balance in terms of tactical awareness compared to Gini; aggression, ability to cover ground, keep play moving, break up play compared to Henderson and defensive mopping up & aerial presence compared to Fabinho (and you could include a whole load of other things that we'd lose with a midfield 3 of Ox, Lallana and Keita too which would result in an unbalanced midfield 3). 

[Eeyore]

But it has never been an issue has it been? The midfield does the job what Klopp wants, while the creative players create - it's as simple as that. Some of you seem to have missed one of Klopp's post match interviews for sure, and aren't really reading into what he wants from his midfield. I'd say that's the reason why this narrative that somehow it is an issue, keeps floating around.

Except finding creative solutions to a problem doesn't mean the problem still isn't there. We haven't solved the problem we have just found ways of minimising the effects of it.

He clearly said that his midfield does what he wants from them when asked if his midfield could be more creative (or on those lines). They lay the platform for rest of the team to work on. If they plug the holes, circulate the ball and then give the license for Trent/Robbo/Bobby to be creative and then they all fail, it's on them, not on the midfield. Thankfully, that's almost never happened, if one player isn't on form, the other has always stepped up, we've shown what a 'TEAM' we're.

The problem is that puts far too much reliance on Trent who is 21 years of age. When he doesn't play and we play Gomez for instance the creativity levels fall off a cliff.

As for Coutinho, he has never really worked much in midfield, has he? Klopp himself preferred to play him attack more than in the midfield, it's pretty clear what Klopp's priorities are in terms of what he wants from his midfield. I'm sure that the first thing he wants from his midfield, even the most attacking third midfielder, is not creativity. The first thing he wants from all of them is work-rate and tactical nous, the next thing is ball retention and creativity and goals are probably the last thing he wants from them.

If klopp didn't want creativity from his midfield he wouldn't of bought Oxlade-Chamberlain, Keita, Shaqiri and gave Lallana a long term deal when he did. The intention was pretty clear from Klopp it is just that the four aforementioned players have been ravaged by injury. In their absence we have found solutions, which has been Trent as a deep playmaker, Bobby dropping deep and Mo proving a ball over the top option. That has been refined with longer passing from the back.

In general, especially some opposition fans think our midfield is just about running around/being work horses. They can't be more wrong. These are far from headless chickens. The amount of tactical brilliance the three bring into the fold (Fabinho, Hendo, and Gini) is extremely under-rated, these are some of the smartest midfielders around. Ox is still not in that level in terms of game intelligence. Keita could get there, if he remains fit.

Klopp has a habit of improving game intelligence both individually and tactically though. Players tend not to come straight in to the team until Klopp has worked his magic on the training field.

[Knight]

Expecting Klopp to criticise a midfield for not being as 'progressive' as they might be is an exercise in futility. He's never going to do that. He knows what Gini, Fab and Henderson will be good at. And when he picks that midfield he sets us up to play in a way that accentuates their strengths and minimises their weaknesses, just like he does for all of our players. But if he could have all their strengths with improved 'progressive' capacity do you not think he'd want that? Of course he would, that's why he's picked players like that and that's why he's bought players like that. It's such a shame Keita can't get fit. He does all these things and this conversation wouldn't be happening if he'd found his feet.

[Roger Federer]

Go on then, explain what else did you mean when you were talking about balance that we now have, but did in someway lack before, even though we were close to success in all fronts in the way of breaking club records last season (and all-time records this season)?

Go on, explain it all away as part of a healthy discussion that you are so interested in.

It doesn't make sense to say that we've always had a progressive passer/dribbler in midfield when we've done well. Not at all. We had Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner (Milner is probably a bit more progressive, but is in no way a playmaker, he drifted wide and sent in crosses for his assists more than progressing through the middle) in the 2017-18 CL campaign all the way to the finals, and then we had Fabinho, Hendo and Wijnaldum predominantly in the league and CL (raking 97 points and winning the CL) and the three of them starred in the campaign. Calling this trio to be lacking in balance is not only disrespectful, but plain wrong and only circulates narratives about what has always been a successful midfield trio.

Even if we aren't really bothered, these are the narratives on which opposition fans thrive on.

Oxlade-Chamberlain started both Champions league games against City in 17/18 (and the 4-3 in the league), and the first against Roma too, before his unfortunate injury. He was probably our best midfielder during that time and a regular in the big games. Beside the point perhaps, but just wanted to mention that.

And the poster you replied to did also say: "The problem with our midfield, on the few occasions in 2+ years when there has been a problem, hasn’t been individuals so much as balance" so not sure why you believe he is being disrespectful towards anyone.

For what it's worth, I think, paradoxically as I rated Fabinho as our best midfielder before his injury, that we've looked slightly better without him. Henderson has been as good if not even better as the number 6, and well, the balance in midfield is slightly different when we play can get either Chamberlain or Keita into the team. It's doesn't mean that Wijnadum, Fabinho and Henderson isn't a great midfield - they clearly dominate every opponents we've faced - but Keita in particular gives something extra to that. Our performances against Leicester, Salzburg, Sheffield (Milner, I know, but he plays more similar to Keita than Fabinho to me), and United have seen us move up another level, I think. Maybe that is just coincidence, and not down to the personell in midfield, but to me it looks like we managed to stay as compact and ruthless, while getting a few more percent out of the attack during this current run.

[Jookie]

4-2-3-1 seems to be on the cards with the core of our 4-3-3 midfielders (namely Henderson and Gini, and Milner and Lallana) getting on in the thirties and the names we've been linked with (Havertz, Werner).

Whilst I don't disagree that 4-2-3-1 might be where we go I'm not sure you can use the names we are linked with as justification. Firstly I'd take those links with a pinch of salt. Also, Werner would be a No.9. Where does that leave Salah in a 4-2-3-1, given Salah has hardly ever played wide right when we play that situation? With Harvetz where does he fit in a 4-2-3-1 given I would say Firmino is really only suited to playing in the middle of the 3 in that formation (maybe wide left at a push).

The counter argument to all this is that we've just bought Minamino as a Firmino back upon the false 9 position. Could be argued he's be bought for the RHS in either a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 or for the No.10 position in a 4-2-3-1. Who knows?

What we cam say with confidence is that both 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 (plus 4-2-2-2) are options with this squad. That in part is down to the quality, quantity and differing skillsets we have in midfield in attack currently

[Magix]

Whilst I don't disagree that 4-2-3-1 might be where we go I'm not sure you can use the names we are linked with as justification. Firstly I'd take those links with a pinch of salt. Also, Werner would be a No.9. Where does that leave Salah in a 4-2-3-1, given Salah has hardly ever played wide right when we play that situation? With Harvetz where does he fit in a 4-2-3-1 given I would say Firmino is really only suited to playing in the middle of the 3 in that formation (maybe wide left at a push).

The counter argument to all this is that we've just bought Minamino as a Firmino back upon the false 9 position. Could be argued he's be bought for the RHS in either a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 or for the No.10 position in a 4-2-3-1. Who knows?

What we cam say with confidence is that both 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 (plus 4-2-2-2) are options with this squad. That in part is down to the quality, quantity and differing skillsets we have in midfield in attack currently

I'm just prepared to get amazed by us, yet again, tactically. The evolution of the gegenpress has been a sight to behold over the past two seasons. Which is why I don't think it's both fair and correct to frame our midfield's perceived weakness as a problem, when we've been successfully refining it ever since Cou left.

[Jookie]

I'm just prepared to get amazed by us, yet again, tactically. The evolution of the gegenpress has been a sight to behold over the past two seasons. Which is why I don't think it's both fair and correct to frame our midfield's perceived weakness as a problem, when we've been successfully refining it ever since Cou left.

Coutinho was never a midfielder in my eyes and not a long term option there. Was only good playing in 1 direction despite him being willing to do defensive work.

That's not revisionism on my part. If you go back to the Coutinho thread you can see I was saying the same thing during his last 6-12 months at the club when he was being mooted more and more as a midfield option in 4-3-3.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Coutinho was never a midfielder in my eyes and not a long term option there. Was only good playing in 1 direction despite him being willing to do defensive work.

That's not revisionism on my part. If you go back to the Coutinho thread you can see I was saying the same thing during his last 6-12 months at the club when he was being mooted more and more as a midfield option in 4-3-3.

Agreed. he was a liability defensively for us playing there.

[PoetryInMotion]

Agreed. he was a liability defensively for us playing there.

Exactly. The fact that Klopp didn't play Coutinho much in midfield proves what he wants primarily from our midfield. But some people will keep going in circular arguments/criticism of our midfield despite Klopp's own opinion and multiple evidences to the contrary. It's basically their own fantasy of what a midfield should look like (and probable influenced by media/Man City - whom we are better than now), rather than what Klopp actually wants.